Would you Allow...

[LumenPlacidum]

Would you allow a Pact of the Chain warlock with the Poisoner feat to set an Unseen Servant to apply poison to a familiar's weapon when the familiar holds out its weapon/appendage without moving?

I'm thinking of ways to use the saving throw thing from Investment of the Chain Master. So far, I just have "Set your familiar to break caster concentration, since the DC becomes your spellcasting DC."

[Unoriginal]

Would you allow a Pact of the Chain warlock with the Poisoner feat to set an Unseen Servant to apply poison to a familiar's weapon when the familiar holds out its weapon/appendage without moving?

I'm thinking of ways to use the saving throw thing from Investment of the Chain Master. So far, I just have "Set your familiar to break caster concentration, since the DC becomes your spellcasting DC."

I would not allow an Unseen Servant to use a feat their caster have. It can apply poison as well as anyone without any feat or proficiency, though.

[LumenPlacidum]

Oh, I wouldn't ever try to let them do it as a bonus action. Having them both spend an action applying to poison to get it once every other turn would be enough for that. I guess I'm really asking, do people consider it to be within the purview of the Unseen Servant spell to have such a program.

[Gale]

I would allow an Unseen Servant to apply poison to a weapon, as it seems reasonably within its capabilities. I might allow a natural weapon too, such as claws, but probably not a bite.

However, as a DM I would rule that the DC for the poison is still static, and unaffected by your spell save DC. My reasoning being that the poison is forcing the creature to make a saving throw, not your familiar. Regardless, I think it's unintended that things with static DCs, outside of your familiar's stat block, are supposed to be affected by Investment of the Chain Master. If I were to permit this then it would also allow the familiar to use any item that forces a saving throw, and have that saving throw changed to your spell save DC, which is definitely unintended and unbalanced.

This could even extend to something like ball bearings; an imp familiar spreading them onto the floor would suddenly change the DC to avoid falling prone from 10 to your spell save DC, which is absolutely ridiculous and silly. In my opinion, Investment of the Chain Master is meant to buff your familiar's innate abilities, not the strength of everything it interacts with.

For similar reasons, I also disagree that a familiar attacking a spellcaster would force the spellcaster to make a constitution saving throw equaling your spell save DC in order to maintain concentration. I understand why you would think it would. But something like this is unprecedented, and it seems unintended that Investment of the Chain Master would affect a universal, and otherwise static mechanic like this. But truthfully, I can't come up with a good RAW argument for why this doesn't work. I wouldn't allow it at my table, but I wouldn't necessarily say you were in the wrong if you ruled it this way.

EDIT: For an example for why this might not be a good idea: An imp familiar wielding a Wand of Magic Missiles, could send out three magic missile darts every round towards a spellcaster. Damage is unavoidable unless they cast Shield, which you could Counterspell if you want. They then must succeed three separate saves equal to your Spell Save DC or lose concentration. This is a fairly low effort way of ending concentration on enemy spellcasters with practical no chance of failure, which definitely feels too powerful to be intentional. Additionally, an imp familiar can be invisible the entire time, since magic missile doesn't count as an attack, and thus it doesn't break its invisibility. Spells don't innately break an imp's invisibility either, as it's not the same as the spell called Invisibility, which does end when you cast a spell.

[kaoskonfety]

Would you allow a Pact of the Chain warlock ... to set an Unseen Servant to apply poison to a familiar's weapon when the familiar holds out its weapon/appendage without moving?

I'm thinking of ways to use the saving throw thing from Investment of the Chain Master. So far, I just have "Set your familiar to break caster concentration, since the DC becomes your spellcasting DC."

Cute... very cute. I cut out the feat bit cause I agree w Unoriginal: the familiar and the unseen servant do not benefit from the feat, though you could give an imp a knife coated in ur special poison goo and I'm sure some/most DMs would let it fly. The proposed situation where I think you have an unseen servant holding poison, a familiar hanging out with a knife, and a fight all going on in the same room seems odd to me, but I've had players do WAY weirder.

Each of the special chain pact familiars have abilities that have saves: all 4 of them have poison built in, 2 of these poisons have a unconsciousness folded in on a fail - which is golden with this invocation, 2 of the poisons do damage, one of them has heart-sight, all of them apply the poisoned condition - which is also golden.

Quick browse later frag grenades and tangle-foot bags or grenades or whatever they are now force saves. I'm sure some other stuff could be contrived or exists someplace?

As written if the familiar forces a save it uses your spell DC. I'm sure many DM's would let this fly overall.

I for one would rule the DC modification only applies to the familiars abilities and its direct actions - as an extension of you, it gets your save DC's on its abilities. The buff would not apply on items physically independent of the 2 of you that happen to have a save DC that the familiar in turn just happens to trigger - poison coated weapon, escaping landslide damage, asking an intellect devourer to pretty please eat their brains, and such not, would not be improved due to your magic buddy bond. I'd probably have to make a few corner case judgement calls, but I doubt it would be many.

**I'd totally allow an unseen servant to apply poison

[JoeJ]

I would not allow an Unseen Servant to use a feat their caster have. It can apply poison as well as anyone without any feat or proficiency, though.

I agree with this. Nothing in the spell description suggests that US can be programmed, though, so I'd say the caster needs to use a bonus action to command the US each time it applies poison.

[BerzerkerUnit]

US is intended to do things like clean your lab or pack up your camp, it can absolutely be given a general command that requires multiple steps. So “Poison all the arrows in this quiver 1 at a time” or “keep the tip of this weapon poisoned when presented” are within reason.

Further, it should really benefit from some of your feats to a limited degree, for example Poisoner, you should absolutely be able to have it make the poison while you relax.

I will admit, there’s a fine line between what’s reasonable and what becomes an exploit. I started using wizard2-Minor Conjuration to create a gallon of Drow sleep poison which appears in my Tiny Servant, Crockpot-Chan who then runs around handing out the arrows it carries. That’s a solid bit of utility but require the addition of a third level spell, though I could something similar with US. When I have the chance I also animate a couple crossbows that take turns loading each other and firing themselves while the crockpot-Chan and Helmet-Kun hand them poisoned arrows.

[KorvinStarmast]

I will admit, there’s a fine line between what’s reasonable and what becomes an exploit. monofilament. :smallcool:

[Kane0]

Would you allow a Pact of the Chain warlock with the Poisoner feat to set an Unseen Servant to apply poison to a familiar's weapon when the familiar holds out its weapon/appendage without moving?

I'm thinking of ways to use the saving throw thing from Investment of the Chain Master. So far, I just have "Set your familiar to break caster concentration, since the DC becomes your spellcasting DC."

Sounds like a fun use of the poisoner feat to me, I’d let it work with a warlocks imp or beastmasters snake. Would make for more variety than just rogues and druids.

[Toadkiller]

It sounds like the sort of going on and on while the other players look at their phones that the pact of chain players are known for.

[KorvinStarmast]

It sounds like the sort of going on and on while the other players look at their phones that the pact of chain players are known for. Laughed, I did. :smallcool:

[LumenPlacidum]

I didn't get it. :smalleek: