Paladin wants to teach commoners how to use lay on hands in low magic area

[Nalistri]

Hi folks its me again. So I have a roleplaying question essentially in a game i am in the setting has magic but clerics and paladins so far are rare this one specific city has an antimagic barrier so cleric healing and spells are not going to happen. There is currently a war going on and the soldiers are being treated at a hospital in the capital however it has been ruled things like lay on hands would work. So I am thinking of trying to train people to be able to use lay on hands. I just dont have the first clue how im going to rp this. I believe a paladin gets there power from their convictions and force of will. I mean I guess at base it would be these nurses and doctors have the conviction to not let these people die. Cure the wounded/heal the sick but what after that?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

The best way IMO is to convince them to take the Paladin oath and train them as Paladins (not the class feature oath, the generic one every paladin have before level 3 and that is not defined in 5e).

It may take some time but it will succeed (in low scale, creatures with class levels are rare).

[Unoriginal]

Hi folks its me again. So I have a roleplaying question essentially in a game i am in the setting has magic but clerics and paladins so far are rare this one specific city has an antimagic barrier so cleric healing and spells are not going to happen. There is currently a war going on and the soldiers are being treated at a hospital in the capital however it has been ruled things like lay on hands would work. So I am thinking of trying to train people to be able to use lay on hands. I just dont have the first clue how im going to rp this. I believe a paladin gets there power from their convictions and force of will. I mean I guess at base it would be these nurses and doctors have the conviction to not let these people die. Cure the wounded/heal the sick but what after that?

I mean, it depends how your DM rules it, but in the default lore you can't teach how to be a Paladin, and you can't just have one part of the Paladin package (you can have similar abilities, though).

A Paladin's power come from the Oath they make with themselves and/or the multiverse (in some settings, with a god's assistance). It's a form of Contract Magic, most likely. And you can't teach people to have reality-bending conviction.


The best way IMO is to convince them to take the Paladin oath and train them as Paladins (not the class feature oath, the generic one every paladin have before level 3 and that is not defined in 5e).

It may take some time but it will succeed (in low scale, creatures with class levels are rare).

It would only work with those who have what it takes to make the Oath more than words. So I guess a few people.

[SpeedWitch]

I'd definitely recommend working with your DM to flesh out your character's training and early experiences as a paladin, as well as making sure you're both on the same page about where paladins get their paladiny powers. Is your oath to a specific deity? Nature spirits? The dead who have no one to speak for them? Your ex? Yourself? Does your church or temple have acolytes reciting prayers or mantras to prepare healing spells or recharge Lay on Hands?

Even if your DM doesn't give you a whole lotta road for the idea, a paladin trying to aid a town in need by spreading their faith is still a fun direction for a character to go, and even managing to inspire one beggar kid, empathetic nurse or downtrodden soldier to follow the faith can be a victory for your character.

[Nalistri]

He is a redemption paladin. This world doesnt have deitys but there are creatures that take on different aspects of the world so a creature representing the planes is a dragon made of dirt and grass, aspect of the lake is a bull made of water. He wants the soldiers to not die to injuries that could be easily healed by magic. I mean a oath to one person might just be "I will do my best to not let my patients die" for like a doctor taking on an oath or am i making this too simple and its actually more complicated than that?

[sophontteks]

He is a redemption paladin. This world doesnt have deitys but there are creatures that take on different aspects of the world so a creature representing the planes is a dragon made of dirt and grass, aspect of the lake is a bull made of water. He wants the soldiers to not die to injuries that could be easily healed by magic. I mean a oath to one person might just be "I will do my best to not let my patients die" for like a doctor taking on an oath or am i making this too simple and its actually more complicated than that?
We're talking about something they've devoted their life to and skills they've managed only through great devotion, time, and training. It's much more then what you are laying out here. Think like the templars and hospitallers with some divine miracles thrown in.

If you are in a low magic setting this statement is probably not true either. If magic is rare, then wounds couldn't just be easily cured by magic. Such acts would be seen as more miraculous then mundane.

[Nalistri]

We're talking about something they've devoted their life to and skills they've managed only through great devotion, time, and training. It's much more then what you are laying out here. Think like the templars and hospitallers with some divine miracles thrown in.

If you are in a low magic setting this statement is probably not true either. If magic is rare, then wounds couldn't just be easily cured by magic. Such acts would be seen as more miraculous then mundane.

Its not so much its a low magic setting just in this city magic will not work and because there are not exactly gods to worship very few people have an idea on things like cleric or paladin abilities. Only reason my character knows about it is because he is from another world that this was common knoledge

[Unoriginal]

It would be much, much easier to set up an hospital outside of the anti-magic zone.

[Nalistri]

It would be much, much easier to set up an hospital outside of the anti-magic zone.


While that is true. This will require moving patients and also clerics and paladins arent super common right now only reason my character has any knowledge of divine magic is because he is from a world it is common. Here it seems to be reserved for royalty and is a rare resource as only a few people have knowledge of how to make a divine connection

[sophontteks]

Its not so much its a low magic setting just in this city magic will not work and because there are not exactly gods to worship very few people have an idea on things like cleric or paladin abilities. Only reason my character knows about it is because he is from another world that this was common knoledge
While the option to set up chapter houses to train new paladins in this world would be a fun option you should explore, we are talking about doing this in a scope of years, or even decades.

[Nalistri]

While the option to set up chapter houses to train new paladins in this world would be a fun option you should explore, we are talking about doing this in a scope of years, or even decades.


ah right. Fair enough main reason he wants to teach is because there is a war going on i was hoping it wouldnt take years. Sure paladins train for yyears but is that for their fighting prowess or purely there ability to heal? because doctors and nurses dont need to fight like a paladin they are just needed to heal these people was my thinking

[Chaosmancer]

Looking at this from an RP perspective, I'd say the idea is to try and get them to channel their emotions and desire to help into the patient. While yes, canonically, it takes a rare person to have a paladin's oath, the type of people who are working and volunteering as Doctors and Nurses during a war or a siege? Those are exactly the sort of people who might be able to tap into that aspect of themselves and of faith in others.

Obviously talk to your DM, but I think this is an incredibly cool idea and hopefully you can make it work.

[Unoriginal]

While that is true. This will require moving patients and also clerics and paladins arent super common right now only reason my character has any knowledge of divine magic is because he is from a world it is common. Here it seems to be reserved for royalty and is a rare resource

Clerics and Paladins not being common has nothing to do with how it's easier to move the patients and set up the hospital where magic works. Or just accept that there is not enough magic to heal all those people.

That being said, anyone with Herbalist's Kit proficiency can make a Potion of Healing (even if it's expensive).


as only a few people have knowledge of how to make a divine connection

You don't need knowledge to make a divine connection.


ah right. Fair enough main reason he wants to teach is because there is a war going on i was hoping it wouldnt take years. Sure paladins train for yyears but is that for their fighting prowess or purely there ability to heal? because doctors and nurses dont need to fight like a paladin they are just needed to heal these people was my thinking

You can't get just a bit of the package. You're either a Paladin or you're not.

Unless your DM rules otherwise, but that's a discussion you should have with them, not with us.


If you really want to have a lot of people capable of non-spell magic healing, then your best bet by the lore is to make them Celestial Warlocks. Have the Cleric summon the relevant Celestial, and then your Paladin can help figure and argue out terms for the Pact.

[Keravath]

The important aspect to consider is how the DM has structured their world and the types of professions that exist there.

For example, people can learn to swing a sword, tan leather, sew clothing, work as a blacksmith - some will be much much better than others but these are all skills that most people should be able to learn with enough time and practice.

However, is that true in the DMs game world for magical skills? Does being a paladin require a force of will that not just everyone has? Not everyone can become a professor at a University, not everyone can be an elite athlete setting world records, not everyone can become a CEO of a large corporation - there are learned skills and there is natural ability - both are sometimes needed for some achievements.

So the first question is not how to roleplay teaching people to lay on hands but to ask the DM if this is possible at all in their game world. You might be better off trying to teach the healer feat to some of the medical practitioners. Proper use of sanitation, medicine, salves, poultices, treatment of infection and fever, specific herbs and plants with medicinal effects .. these might be easier to roleplay teaching than trying to figure out if the individuals you encounter actually have the force of will required in order to force magical healing to occur and then somehow reach into themselves to draw this power forth.

In any case, how it works out in this specific game is entirely up to the DM and you probably need to discuss it with them.

[KorvinStarmast]

He is a redemption paladin. This world doesnt have deitys but there are creatures that take on different aspects of the world so a creature representing the planes is a dragon made of dirt and grass, aspect of the lake is a bull made of water. He wants the soldiers to not die to injuries that could be easily healed by magic. I mean a oath to one person might just be "I will do my best to not let my patients die" for like a doctor taking on an oath or am i making this too simple and its actually more complicated than that? There's a non magic way to do this.
It's mechanically called a Wisdom(Medicine) check. DC 10 usually.
It stabilizes folks at 0 HP.
Once stabilized, people usually are alert at 1 HP in 1d4 hours.

Medicine. A Wisdom (Medicine) check lets you try to stabilize a dying companion or diagnose an illness.
No magic needed.

If healing is unavailable, the creature can at least be stabilized so that it isn’t killed by a failed death saving throw. You can use your action to administer first aid to an unconscious creature and attempt to stabilize it, which requires a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check. A stable creature doesn’t make death saving throws, even though it has 0 hit points, but it does remain unconscious. The creature stops being stable, and must start making death saving throws again, if it takes any damage. A stable creature that isn’t healed regains 1 hit point after 1d4 hours.

Work with your DM on how long it takes you to train novices in combat first aid.
Include in the first aid course a module on "here is how to use a Healer's kit." (Edit thanks to Unoriginal's post).

Healer’s Kit. This kit is a leather pouch containing bandages, salves, and splints. The kit has ten uses. As an action, you can expend one use of the kit to stabilize a creature that has 0 hit points, without needing to make a Wisdom (Medicine) check.

As a point of reference, my last combat first aid course was at Fort Bliss in about 2004. It was a week long, but there was other training thrown in and for me it was a refresher.

For your paladin to train commoners, work with the DM and maybe it's a week of down time to run the class, or the training module. (Related topic is the Boy Scout First Aid merit badge, but it's been so long since I was involved with BSA I have no point of reference).

[Unoriginal]

There's a non magic way to do this.
It's mechanically called a Wisdom(Medicine) check. DC 10 usually.
It stabilizes folks at 0 HP.
Once stabilized, people usually are alert at 1 HP in 1d4 hours.
No magic needed.


Work with your DM on how long it takes you to train novices in combat first aid.

As a point of reference, my last combat first aid course was at Fort Bliss in about 2004. It was a week long, but there was other training thrown in and for me it was a refresher.

For your paladin to train commoners, work with the DM and maybe it's a week of down time to run the class, or the training module. (Related topic is the Boy Scout First Aid merit badge, but it's been so long since I was involved with BSA I have no point of reference).

An Healer's Kit works for stabilizing people, too.

But I suppose the doctors and nurses already have the relevant proficiencies.

[KorvinStarmast]

An Healer's Kit works for stabilizing people, too.

But I suppose the doctors and nurses already have the relevant proficiencies. 5 GP might be out of the price range for the target training audience, but I agree 'And here is how you use a healer's kit" would be very much inplace for my sugggestion.

Consider that appended.

[stoutstien]

I would allow the paladin to pass out a portion of their LoH onto the NPCs using the ceremony spell. The overall cost would be exponential based on the number of targets they share it with so 1=5 hp from pool, 2=10 hp from pool, and so on. Until they choose the reverse the ceremony the paladins total pool is reduced by that amount. Probably at a clause that the NPCs would also have to follow that paladin's tenants for it to work.

[Catullus64]

If I was your DM, I'd have you roll Insight at the end of a session, DC ~ 18. On a success, I'd roll a d4; that's how many people you find in the city who you think have what it takes. Maybe you see them perform some great act of sacrifice, maybe they already have healing hands in a non-magical sense. At any rate, over the break between sessions, I'd give them names, a few distinguishing personality traits, and some minor abilities that distinguish them from Commoners.

And then... you'd talk. I'd set aside 10 or so minutes of session time for your character to explain to them how you came to be able to do this, and what it means to you. They'd share what they're feeling and why they want to help. As a DM, I'd write NPCs with motives roughly corresponding to different Paladin oath tenets; one who wants to win the war (Vengeance), one who wants to protect the innocent (Devotion), one who wants to bring happiness and ease pain (Ancients). Then, every day during Long Rest time, I'd have you make some Charisma checks to represent repeating these sessions, with some live practice. The NPCs are making Wisdom checks too. Maybe advantage for the NPC who I've written to correspond more closely to your own Paladin Oath. Each success (DC 13 or so) adds one to a success pool for each NPC. When an NPC reaches 5 successes, they can now use Lay on Hands as a 1st-level paladin. Anything beyond that, they're gonna need to develop by going on their own adventures.

[Unoriginal]

Doesn't help with Lay of Hand, but you may like the Sidekick rules.

[Mellack]

Perhaps the OP can give a little more information now that a lot has been discussed. What do you want to get out of having others learn LoH that you cannot get from the medicine skill or a Healer's Kit?

[Nalistri]

Perhaps the OP can give a little more information now that a lot has been discussed. What do you want to get out of having others learn LoH that you cannot get from the medicine skill or a Healer's Kit?

In all honesty it is to do with how quickly the people can recover. I had thought about the doctors and nurses all having prof in medicine/healers kits. In my mind im thinking real world logic it take people a long time to recover from fatal or even life changing injuries and here is my character who when he was level one almost died in a single hit like these people but put himself back together.

Its odd adventures can take a punch, almost die, if they are lucky survive a disintegration spell but after an 8 hour nap they are just back to normal. Meanwhile these guards/soldiers are alll laying in hospitals days after an injury

[Lunali]

In all honesty it is to do with how quickly the people can recover. I had thought about the doctors and nurses all having prof in medicine/healers kits. In my mind im thinking real world logic it take people a long time to recover from fatal or even life changing injuries and here is my character who when he was level one almost died in a single hit like these people but put himself back together.

Its odd adventures can take a punch, almost die, if they are lucky survive a disintegration spell but after an 8 hour nap they are just back to normal. Meanwhile these guards/soldiers are alll laying in hospitals days after an injury

My take on it has always been that you aren't seriously injured until you hit 0hp and then the severity is determined retroactively based on what happens afterwards. If you stabilize naturally, it wasn't that serious of an injury, if you bleed out in ten seconds, something hit an artery.

Also, the rules on death, dying and healing are only intended for PCs. NPCs follow narrative rules for what's appropriate for their situation. This also applies to things like class levels; there may be other people that take the paladin oaths, use weapons, divine magic, etc, but PCs are the only ones that have the paladin class and follow the progression therein.

[JonBeowulf]

I'm looking at it from the other side. If everyone can LoH, then it's no big deal that you can. I get why your char would want to do this, but from a mechanics perspective you're making one of the special things only paladins can do available to anyone anyone who attends enough of his seminars.

As a DM, I love the idea and would hate to squash the creativity but I'd also be concerned about unforeseen impacts this could have way down the story.

[Chaosmancer]

I'm looking at it from the other side. If everyone can LoH, then it's no big deal that you can. I get why your char would want to do this, but from a mechanics perspective you're making one of the special things only paladins can do available to anyone anyone who attends enough of his seminars.

As a DM, I love the idea and would hate to squash the creativity but I'd also be concerned about unforeseen impacts this could have way down the story.


Now this I can fully get behind. If you are able to give out Lay on Hands to others, simply by teaching, then it could cascade down with unforeseen consequences.

That being said, despite what a lot of people have been putting forth about the technical rules, there are other story considerations. For example, while a lot of people seem to be of the opinion that Paladins can never be taught, that misses the very obvious point that Paladins are generally part of Orders, and those Orders take in young squires and teach them to be paladins. So, there has to be some aspect of this that can be taught, otherwise Paladins wouldn't really exist like they do.


But, compromises can be reached here. I absolutely love the idea of a Ceremony, or of praying and attempting to contact a Celestial to bind the doctor's under a pact to allow them some minor Lay on Hands. Depending on how much you want this to be a "major character moment" you could pay the price for their gift by losing your powers for a time, sacrificing of yourself to spark in them the small flames of light that will help them aid the wounded. Or perhaps you take on grievous wounds, using your sacrificed life force to. do the same thing.


What I think this idea doesn't support though is a sort of... throw away point. Like, if you use want to say you did the thing and helped them, then I don't think teaching Lay on Hands is a way to go. This is teaching a magical skill that will change these people's lives, if you are looking for something simple, easy and just "something to do" then I think just aiding them with basic medical supplies, using ceremony to bless the medicine or the bandages, that would be a better minor thing to do. I think teaching Lay on Hands is something huge, potentially defining for your story going forward.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm looking at it from the other side. If everyone can LoH, then it's no big deal that you can. I get why your char would want to do this, but from a mechanics perspective you're making one of the special things only paladins can do available to anyone anyone who attends enough of his seminars.

As a DM, I love the idea and would hate to squash the creativity but I'd also be concerned about unforeseen impacts this could have way down the story. That is part of why I pointed out that there is a non magic way to do this. :smallcool:

[Mellack]

In all honesty it is to do with how quickly the people can recover. I had thought about the doctors and nurses all having prof in medicine/healers kits. In my mind im thinking real world logic it take people a long time to recover from fatal or even life changing injuries and here is my character who when he was level one almost died in a single hit like these people but put himself back together.

Its odd adventures can take a punch, almost die, if they are lucky survive a disintegration spell but after an 8 hour nap they are just back to normal. Meanwhile these guards/soldiers are alll laying in hospitals days after an injury

What you seem to have is a difference between what happens narratively and mechanically. Mechanically, LoH has no different effect for an injured person than stabilizing with a healer's kit and having them take a long rest. That doesn't mean that people will narratively heal overnight, even though that is what PC's do. This whole discussion boils down to talking with your DM and asking what you can do to help with the wounded. Because mechanically they should not be laying in the hospital for days. Since it is a narrative problem, you need to find a narrative solution.

[Chaosmancer]

What you seem to have is a difference between what happens narratively and mechanically. Mechanically, LoH has no different effect for an injured person than stabilizing with a healer's kit and having them take a long rest. That doesn't mean that people will narratively heal overnight, even though that is what PC's do. This whole discussion boils down to talking with your DM and asking what you can do to help with the wounded. Because mechanically they should not be laying in the hospital for days. Since it is a narrative problem, you need to find a narrative solution.

I 100% agree with this, however, I would note that teaching a way to connect to the divine and channel divine abilities like Lay on Hands, can be a narrative solution.

I want to repeat that, because while it is the DM's decision, there have also been a lot of posters who immediately shot down the idea because of their conceptions of how special paladins are. And yes, a Paladin is very special with their suite of abilities, but we should remember that they are not a Paladin (technically) until level 3, when they take their oath, and Lay on Hands is a level 1 ability. It is not unreasonable to chop that ability out and teach it to NPCs seperately from the rest of the class abilities, like an immunity to Disease that many doctors and nurses would sell their kidneys for.

[greenstone]

There aren't any rules in the game for how you actually become a PC. We have the background, which is what you did before becoming an adventurer, and the game, but nothing about the period in the middle.

There has to be some training and/or prep. You don't wake up one morning suddenly gaining the abilities of a level 1 PC. Or maybe you do? Hmmm, thinking about it, that could be a really interesting plot.

I am of the opinion that training to be a level 1 adventurer is many weeks, probably months. It costs a lot, which is why our PCs start off relatively poor.