Can i optimize this build further?

[Zerryzerry]

Ok, the premise is that this is a Druid build, I will use ACFs, flaws, and basically everything that's been printed and considered official in 3.5
No item can be used to improve the build, since it is a Wow of poverty build (taken lvl1). The number of feats needed also means that i should need a starting bonus feat, so Human or Stronghearth Halfling (i do not know if there are any other races giving the extra feat, or Improved Grapple). Also I wish to keep it at +0 LA and no Racial HD since it is an already high level "activation" build (not that it is a real need, but I like making builds that one day i would find fun to play also at lower levels then 13). Spellcasting is not sacrificed, Natural Spells is in the build, albit later then i wanted it to be, and no spellcasting level is ever sacrificed. Still my DCs will be low, and buffs and no-save CCs are my best bets. Animal Companion CAN be sacrificed for something substantial, but for marginal benefits i prefer getting Elemental Companion for an Earth Elemental that can Glide with me.

And before the comment "Golden ice is a Ravage and not a poison", I know, but the build is NOT based on Golden Ice + Venomfire, so that can be skipped. The extra d6 acid damage are REALLY good (220d6 acid damage at lvl20 are not something you can ignore unless you are immune) but the build works, and it is fun, also without that. And i'd STILL get Touch of golden ice, i just don't cast Venomfire. Depends on the DM here.

IMPORTANT EDIT: No Lawyer-like cheese. No "strict by the RAW" misinterpratation. I Like to play the game by the rules, not play the rules to win the game.

Druid levels are Domain Druid - Plant domain, for the Skill Focus(Knowledge:Nature) free feat and interesting spells.
Skill points are best spent in Knowledge skills for Knowledge Devotion, Concentration and Spellcraft (10 are needed for Earth Dreamer, and Counterspelling from under the earth is fun).

The concept is a druid focused on GRAPPLE melee combat and Wild Shape but with a twist: Wildshaping in a Squid/Octopus (and later Giant Squid/Octopus), breathing air normally and moving through the earth with Earth Glide (Earth Dreamer 5th) and attacking from under the feet of the opponents, perhaps dragging them under the earth after softening it making it mud or sand and having them die like in quicksands. Well that's when they survive the damage with 11 attacks/round with Venomfire (Touch of Golden ice to activate it). Spells are best used for the situations where there is no soil available (Big boats, 2nd floor or higher in buildings etc), even if you can still shapeshift into something else. Until Acquatic Breath or Greater Sustenance Slots must be reserved for Breathe Air spells.

This is the Class/feat progression, including bonus feats

1- Druid - Unarmed Strike, Sacred Vow(flaw), Vow of Poverty(flaw), Skill Focus(Knowledge:Nature)(Domain), Earth Sense (Racial Bonus Feat), Nymph's Kiss (Vow)
2- Druid - Touch of Golden Ice (Vow)
3- Druid - Knowledge Devotion
4- Druid - Nimbus of Light (Vow)
5- Druid
6- Druid - Improved Grapple, Lliira's Blessing(Vow)
7- Druid
8- Druid - Exalted Wild Shape(vow)
9- Earth Dreamer - Natural Spells
10- Earth Dreamer - Sanctify Natural Attack(vow)[This depends on the DM, for the prerequisites]
11- Earth Dreamer
12- Earth Dreamer - fast Wild Shape, Intuitive Attack(vow)
13- Earth Dreamer
14- Druid - Defender of the Homeland(vow)
15- Druid - Swift Wild Shape
16- Druid - Holy Radiance(vow)
17- Druid
18- Druid - FREE FEAT, Servant of the heavens(vow)
19- Druid
20- Druid - Vow of chastity(vow)

At the end i have: BAB 13, Will 13, Reflex 6, Fortiture 13, [15d8 + 5d4] HP, CL20.

With all the various bonuses i get (listing only important ones):

-True Sight
-Freedom of movement
-Energy Resistance 15
-AC bonus +15 (10 armor, 2 natural, 3 deflection)
-Regeneration 1/hour
-Sustenance
- +8COS +6WIS +4DEX +2STR (considered swapping Wis for Cos, but the difference is minimal and COS helps early)
-No need to breathe
-Earth Glide
-Tremorsense 10ft
-Seeing through walls or earth
-Immunity to poisons
-Resistance (all saving throws +3)
-DR 10/Evil
-Every hit Fort DC14 or 1d6/2d6 dmg to dex
-+1 save vs spells and SLAs

And a lot of minor extras


Is there any way to make it better without losing the focus on having a damn Kraken swimming through the soil to grab at the enemy?

And yes, your companions get to shout "Release the Kraken" every time the druid wildshapes in the middle of combat


EDIT: Corrected after Smasher's pointers

[Zerryzerry]

100+ views and no comment...

Is this build at its perfect state or is just not interesting? :smallfrown::smallfrown:

[daremetoidareyo]

It’s a Druid with natural spell, 2 flaws, and one feat open at 18th level, it’s gonna be fine.

[Vizzerdrix]

100+ views and no comment...

Is this build at its perfect state or is just not interesting? :smallfrown::smallfrown:

People are chewing it over. It will take time.

[Zerryzerry]

People are chewing it over. It will take time.

Hope so, it may be no Pun Pun but I am pretty proud of this build. But I'm not overly cheesy so i have surely missed something

[smasher0404]

First the tiniest nitpick: Vow not Wow :smalltongue:

But, I'm not seeing how the druid qualifies for Improved Grapple (missing Improved Unarmed Strike or specific ability to bypass that requirement). Also Domain Druid (assuming you are talking about the mention of it in Unearthed Arcana pg. 68) is explicitly a house rule than a proposed variant class, which would require explicit DM buy-in even more so than other variant rules.

Unless my brain is missing something, you also don't pick up the ability to become a Giant Squid via Wild Shape until level 20 (since Earth Dreamer doesn't progress Wild Shape and Huge Wild Shape comes online at level 15 normally), which is also when Freedom of Movement would probably be most likely to be online. That should be considered when considering the overall power level of the build, especially given a Squid's fairly lack-luster strength score which will get out-paced by larger creatures that you'd expect to encounter at mid-levels. May want to consider adding the Giant Octopus to your wild shape repertoire to fill in that mid level gap (which comes online at 8th, has a higher strength than the Squid, and is larger which adds more grapple bonuses).

[Zerryzerry]

First the tiniest nitpick: Vow not Wow :smalltongue:

English is not my language, does it show? :p (I'm Italian)
Edit:Corrected



But, I'm not seeing how the druid qualifies for Improved Grapple (missing Improved Unarmed Strike or specific ability to bypass that requirement). Also Domain Druid (assuming you are talking about the mention of it in Unearthed Arcana pg. 68) is explicitly a house rule than a proposed variant class, which would require explicit DM buy-in even more so than other variant rules.

As i said, i missed something. That prerequisite is usually removed in our tables, so I need a full remake to get it. thanks for the tip.
Edit:Corrected, got Unarmed Strike at 1st, Improved grapple later on, and moved acquatic Breath and the faster Wild Shape feats further down. At least i got the 18th lvl feat now. Covering the missing Acquatic Breath with a Breathe Air spell




Unless my brain is missing something, you also don't pick up the ability to become a Giant Squid via Wild Shape until level 20 (since Earth Dreamer doesn't progress Wild Shape and Huge Wild Shape comes online at level 15 normally), which is also when Freedom of Movement would probably be most likely to be online. That should be considered when considering the overall power level of the build, especially given a Squid's fairly lack-luster strength score which will get out-paced by larger creatures that you'd expect to encounter at mid-levels. May want to consider adding the Giant Octopus to your wild shape repertoire to fill in that mid level gap (which comes online at 8th, has a higher strength than the Squid, and is larger which adds more grapple bonuses).

Yes, Squid and Octopus are the two option, and i use them depending on how far i am in the build and based on the stats. Usually mid-level and high level "true" enemies at our tables are more like enemy adventurers then MM standard encounters.
Should i change the Vow bonus stats prioritizing Str over COS, and perhaps going STR/WIS/COS/DEX?

[Anthrowhale]

The approach here appears to be Planar Shepherd compatible, which might yield some substantial benefits.

[Gruftzwerg]

@"Venomfire"
Imho the easiest and simplest (ab)use for Venomfire is a Fleshraker. You can have em as animal companion starting at lvl 4 and can turn into em at lvl 5. So you can basically have double Venomfire starting from lvl 5. Make sure to pick the Beast Strike feat on your animal companion on later levels to give him iterative attacks for high BAB. (My Papa Smurf build also makes use of a Venomfire Fleshraker. Have a look to see how to build and equip the Fleshraker).

@"focus on having a damn Kraken"
Why not the Hentai Monster of your wildest dreams/nightmares?^^
Dip a single level into Warshaper for Morphic Weapons and you can grow Tentacles on any form you wish. This way you can combine tentacles with more cheesy forms for grappling (forms with special grappling attacks/bonuses). Or give you Kraken other Natural Weapons (have a look at this list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?286497-101-Natural-Weapons))


On a final thought, why not combine the Fleshraker form (or something with a similar poison ability) with Tentacles? Venomfire madness xD

edit: @ Earth Dreamer
I really like the PRC and have used this for my El Mariachi build. But another way to get this "gimmick" would be to have a "ghost" mount with a "Ghost Touch" saddle. Anything an "incorporeal" creature carries becomes incorporeal. With a ghost touch saddle it can carry you without problems.
I hear you asking "how I'm gonna get a ghost mount.." but that is easier than you might think as a druid:
Ghost Companion (2nd lvl Druid spell) lets your companion become a ghost for clvl/days duration. At the end of the duration it really dies. With Last Breath (4th lvl Druid spell) you can revive a creature that died the last round. You can either wait until the duration of the Ghost Companion ends, or if you DM wants to deny you the information about the exact end of the spell, you can kill it yourself and use Last Breath the next round. If everything fails an animal companion is easy replaceable (unless environment restriction is a thing).

[Maat Mons]

If you're fighting enemy adventurers, doesn't that more-or-less guarantee that they'll all have the ability to fly by the time you can earth glide?

Grappling seems a dubious strategy against adventurers too. An Anklet of Translocation is a cheap way out of a grapple. And at higher levels, a Ring of Freedom of movement becomes affordable.

I feel like you need to compare this with other offensive options available at the same level. You're immobilizing and damaging at levels where save-or-lose spells are coming into play.

Speaking of which, do you have a source of immunity to death effects and immunity to mind-affecting effects? Those are typically obtained via items. I mean, Death Ward is a Druid spell, but it's 1 min./level, so it isn't very practical to keep it active 24/7.

[Troacctid]

Why do you need Aquatic Breath when you have Vow of Poverty already?

Exalted Companion seems to be missing. That's a VoP druid staple.

I can't imagine a scenario where you would be a regular, non-giant octopus or squid. They're both relatively small and weak, and you're not a cephalopod totem druid, so you have access to snakes, leopards, and crocodiles at the very least.

[Zerryzerry]

@"Venomfire"
Imho the easiest and simplest (ab)use for Venomfire is a Fleshraker. You can have em as animal companion starting at lvl 4 and can turn into em at lvl 5. So you can basically have double Venomfire starting from lvl 5. Make sure to pick the Beast Strike feat on your animal companion on later levels to give him iterative attacks for high BAB. (My Papa Smurf build also makes use of a Venomfire Fleshraker. Have a look to see how to build and equip the Fleshraker).

I know of the fleshraker, but thematically i think the Earth Elemental is more fitting, and it can also carry me (and throw me at the enemy) in the early levels when Earth Glide is not yet available. And how many things can be more fun then a pile of moving rock throwing an angry octopus in the face of the enemy?



@"focus on having a damn Kraken"
Why not the Hentai Monster of your wildest dreams/nightmares?^^
Dip a single level into Warshaper for Morphic Weapons and you can grow Tentacles on any form you wish. This way you can combine tentacles with more cheesy forms for grappling (forms with special grappling attacks/bonuses). Or give you Kraken other Natural Weapons (have a look at this list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?286497-101-Natural-Weapons))


On a final thought, why not combine the Fleshraker form (or something with a similar poison ability) with Tentacles? Venomfire madness xD
Did not think about this, One level could be done, but not more then 1 since it does not advance spellcasting.
Could be used to increase damage in tables where Venomfire is banned or not applicable to Golden ice



edit: @ Earth Dreamer
I really like the PRC and have used this for my El Mariachi build. But another way to get this "gimmick" would be to have a "ghost" mount with a "Ghost Touch" saddle. Anything an "incorporeal" creature carries becomes incorporeal. With a ghost touch saddle it can carry you without problems.
I hear you asking "how I'm gonna get a ghost mount.." but that is easier than you might think as a druid:
Ghost Companion (2nd lvl Druid spell) lets your companion become a ghost for clvl/days duration. At the end of the duration it really dies. With Last Breath (4th lvl Druid spell) you can revive a creature that died the last round. You can either wait until the duration of the Ghost Companion ends, or if you DM wants to deny you the information about the exact end of the spell, you can kill it yourself and use Last Breath the next round. If everything fails an animal companion is easy replaceable (unless environment restriction is a thing).

Vow of poverty. I cannot own neither the Ghost touch saddle neither the mount.


The approach here appears to be Planar Shepherd compatible, which might yield some substantial benefits.
Looked into it, I cannot afford the feat tax in early levels and i don't see enough benefits to take it. The extra wild shape forms are totally out of tune (except the earth elemental form, but it comes oooo late), and all other powers are not useful for me, just marginal.


If you're fighting enemy adventurers, doesn't that more-or-less guarantee that they'll all have the ability to fly by the time you can earth glide?

Grappling seems a dubious strategy against adventurers too. An Anklet of Translocation is a cheap way out of a grapple. And at higher levels, a Ring of Freedom of movement becomes affordable.

I feel like you need to compare this with other offensive options available at the same level. You're immobilizing and damaging at levels where save-or-lose spells are coming into play.

Speaking of which, do you have a source of immunity to death effects and immunity to mind-affecting effects? Those are typically obtained via items. I mean, Death Ward is a Druid spell, but it's 1 min./level, so it isn't very practical to keep it active 24/7.
These are valid concerns.
For the flight, i rely mainly on my Wizard friend to either cast Fly on me (going from a Land Kraken to something like a flying Tangela) or drop enemies with a Dispel Magic.
For the save-or-die spells, i am immune as long as i am inside the earth, since the caster does not have both Line of sight and Line of effect on me, not even with true sight.

And i am not talking about a high-op table here. While save-or-die spells are not out of the game for baddies, they are usually limted due to the amount of frustration they bring to the players


Why do you need Aquatic Breath when you have Vow of Poverty already?

Exalted Companion seems to be missing. That's a VoP druid staple.

I can't imagine a scenario where you would be a regular, non-giant octopus or squid. They're both relatively small and weak, and you're not a cephalopod totem druid, so you have access to snakes, leopards, and crocodiles at the very least.
Because before the modifications i did to the build, it was the 6th lvl feat. Right now it comes online at the same level of Greater Sustenance, so it becomes useless. Thx for the tip.

Exalted companion gives me some more options for the companion, but i either want a Earth Elemental or a Fleshraker, that's why i discarded it.
In a table where both Fleshraker and the Elemental Companion ACFs are banned, exalted companion comes back in.

[Gruftzwerg]

Did not think about this, One level could be done, but not more then 1 since it does not advance spellcasting.
Could be used to increase damage in tables where Venomfire is banned or not applicable to Golden ice



Vow of poverty. I cannot own neither the Ghost touch saddle neither the mount.

If you already have a hard time with losing a single spellcasting lvl, I guess losing 2 more for Kensai seems to be a no-go? Combined with another dip into Sacred Fist (to get the monks unarmed strike ability of the purpose of enchanting them) you could give yourself ghost touch (unarmed strike) via Kensai. You would be riding without saddle tho. But it would work.

[Zerryzerry]

If you already have a hard time with losing a single spellcasting lvl, I guess losing 2 more for Kensai seems to be a no-go? Combined with another dip into Sacred Fist (to get the monks unarmed strike ability of the purpose of enchanting them) you could give yourself ghost touch (unarmed strike) via Kensai. You would be riding without saddle tho. But it would work.

Losing spellcasting lvls is not a problem if the benefits are substantial.
Still i don't understand how getting ghost touch on my fists would help, since i would be attacking with Octopus/Squid Natural attacks and not unarmed strikes while wildshaping. And i can enchant those with my spells. And i still cannot own a mount if you were thinking about the ghost mount.

[Gruftzwerg]

Losing spellcasting lvls is not a problem if the benefits are substantial.
Still i don't understand how getting ghost touch on my fists would help, since i would be attacking with Octopus/Squid Natural attacks and not unarmed strikes while wildshaping. And i can enchant those with my spells. And i still cannot own a mount if you were thinking about the ghost mount.

@Ghost Mount
As said in my first post, one option to gain a ghost mount is the "Ghost Companion" Druid spell (2nd lvl). It turns your companion into a ghost for caster lvl/days. At the end of the duration it really dies. This can bypassed by the druid spell Last Breath (4th). If you lack access to it (due to lvl) you can wait the regular 24 to regain a new companion. Imho a handle able side effect, that becomes unnoticeable at later levels (when you get Last Breath).

@Kensai ghost touch (unarmed strike):
By dipping a lvl into Divine Fist, you get access to "monk abilities". These include the special version of "unarmed strike" that allows it to count either as "natural weapon" or "manufactured weapon" for the purpose of "spells" and "effects". An Unarmed Strike in 3.5 is with any part of your body. As such an enhancement affecting your unarmed strike covers your entire body. This helps to apply ghost touch for your entire body. You can't pass anything on your own (same as a ghost touch weapon doesn't pass anything by itself: e.g. when it is dropped), but an incorporeal creature can now carry & wield you while passing anything (or sinking into the ground).

And as a nice bonus on top:
You mount may treat you either as natural weapon or manufactured weapon for its attacks. This is due to your attacks being effects. Note that "effect" ain't have a specific 3.5 definition, thus it covers everything that has an "effect". Attack is as such an "effect" since it can effect the enemy. Your mount doesn't need to rely to use you as an improvised weapon anymore and could pick up feats to improve its abilities when it uses you as a weapon (e.g. Weapon Focus, Multiattack...). Since a druid companion can pick up feats, this is a win-win situation imho. If you get enough monk progression (by going for more Divine Fist lvls) your (clawed) mount could pick up Beast Strike, to combine it natural Claw attack dmg with your monks unarmed strike dmg for extra cheese. This way both of you would make use of your monk unarmed strike dmg.

An easy and simple solution imho, that offers a lot of cheese (at the cost of 3 caster lvls: 1 warshaper + 2 kenasi).

[Zerryzerry]

Understood the principle behind it by now.

But i have to say "Thanks, but no, thank you".
This kind of Lawyer-like interpretation goes beyond optimization and goes into the realm of "Playing the rules, not the game by the rules", and is something i really don't like.

And "hitting with any part of your body" can also being seen as a monk who kills people with his 1d20 damage p***s. You really want to play something like this?