Monk damage variant

[Saelethil]

I’ve heard and read a lot of people griping about Monk’s combat ability being sub par and wanted to suggest a couple possible changes.
The first would be to simply increase the die type by 1. So instead of starting at a d4 they would start at a d6 and go up to a d12 instead of a d10.
My other thought would be to simply add an additional d4 at damage increase levels instead of changing the die type 2d4 @ 5th, 3d4 @ 11th, and 4d4 @ 17th.
Thoughts?

[Gryndle]

Monk is my go to class in this edition and I honestly dont think a damage bump is necessary. No, they dont keep up with pally smites or PAM/GWM builds, but very little does.

Raw damage isn't the monk's thing. They get a lot of mobility, a lot of attacks, can stun and a lot of defensive options that frequently come down to "No, that doesnt work on me".

If a person or table feels really strongly about upping the damage, I would say using your first option to just bump the die up by one step. It is only going to improve their average damage by 1 point per hit, but if it makes people feel better, go for it.

The second option just seems too much though...stacking d4's is going to do a lot more to the math. Once the monk starts throwing 3-4 attacks per round hitting for 3d4 or 4d4 + bonuses on each attack, + status effects, they are going to start looking like a melee Cuisinart.

[da newt]

I agree w/ Gryndle. If you want to buff a little, the +1 die is a nice little boost.

If you go all D4s it is a BIG boost. 1d10 @ 17 average = 5.5, vs 4d4 = 10. That's a big boost.

If you are looking for a buff somewhere between, maybe D6 to start, D8 at 5th, D8 + D4 at 11th, D10 + D4 at 17th.

But IMO, monks don't need much of a buff.

[stoutstien]

Not to turn this into another what's up with the Monk thread but most the time it boils down to a problem with Ki in the middle levels more than damage. the catch is you can't just increase the pool because that makes their stronger options stronger without actually helping them feel more relevant in the long game.
There's some interesting solutions floating around like making step of wind key off wisdom modifiers per day or maybe even scale with proficiency bonus but like other features that work this way it disportionately buffs multi-classing more than the actual class. I would like to finish my homebrew turning ki into something that recharges every round but with a much smaller cap so it allows monks to feel like a monk all day but they also can't just spam abilities. To many projects.

[x3n0n]

I’ve heard and read a lot of people griping about Monk’s combat ability being sub par and wanted to suggest a couple possible changes.
The first would be to simply increase the die type by 1. So instead of starting at a d4 they would start at a d6 and go up to a d12 instead of a d10.
My other thought would be to simply add an additional d4 at damage increase levels instead of changing the die type 2d4 @ 5th, 3d4 @ 11th, and 4d4 @ 17th.
Thoughts?


I believe variant 1 is almost exactly a feature of the Monk subclass in Exploring Eberron; IIRC, it functions only for unarmed strikes. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't break anything.

Note that going to d10 at 11th level means that you've bypassed all of the 1-handed weapons in the game at that point, and that you're tied with greataxe starting at 17th level.

Depending on your table, that may lead to the reverse problem: why bother training with the best weapons if the Monk's hands are better?

[HPisBS]

I’ve heard and read a lot of people griping about Monk’s combat ability being sub par and wanted to suggest a couple possible changes.
...
Thoughts?

As others often say, despite being a martial class, Monks' main role tends to be skirmishing / battlefield control rather than hardcore frontline dpr.

That said, I agree with you that they could use a slight buff. However, I think that Monks' "Martial Arts" doesn't need more damage so much as it needs more martial arts.

Something like:
Martial Arts Techniques (Enhances Martial Arts):
When you make a melee attack against a creature that's no more than one size larger than you, you may forego the attack and damage rolls to attempt a Martial Arts Technique instead. Your Martial Arts save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity modifier.
A creature has advantage on this save if it is a size larger than you.
- Disarm: If the target fails a Strength Saving Throw against your Martial Arts DC, you force it to drop an item of your choice that it’s holding.
- Throw: If the target fails a Dexterity Saving Throw against your Martial Arts DC, the creature falls prone and takes 1 point of bludgeoning damage.

And then at some later level(s?), it should get upgraded some more:

- Deflect Blow: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to deflect the blow. To do so, roll your Martial Arts die and subtract the result from the enemy’s attack roll.
You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.
- Intercepting Fist: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to counter-attack first. To do so, make an unarmed attack roll. If the result is higher than both the target's attack roll, and AC, then your attack hits and the target's attack is lost. Otherwise, you miss, and the creature's attack is not lost.
You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.


Not only would this kind of change give Monks a nice buff, it'd also make the so called "martial artist" characters actually feel like martial artists. As opposed to just punching hard and often.

[Gryndle]

As others often say, despite being a martial class, Monks' main role tends to be skirmishing / battlefield control rather than hardcore frontline dpr.

That said, I agree with you that they could use a slight buff. However, I think that Monks' "Martial Arts" doesn't need more damage so much as it needs more martial arts.

Something like:
Martial Arts Techniques (Enhances Martial Arts):
When you make a melee attack against a creature that's no more than one size larger than you, you may forego the attack and damage rolls to attempt a Martial Arts Technique instead. Your Martial Arts save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity modifier.
A creature has advantage on this save if it is a size larger than you.
- Disarm: If the target fails a Strength Saving Throw against your Martial Arts DC, you force it to drop an item of your choice that it’s holding.
- Throw: If the target fails a Dexterity Saving Throw against your Martial Arts DC, the creature falls prone and takes 1 point of bludgeoning damage.

And then at some later level(s?), it should get upgraded some more:

- Deflect Blow: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to deflect the blow. To do so, roll your Martial Arts die and subtract the result from the enemy’s attack roll.
You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.
- Intercepting Fist: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to counter-attack first. To do so, make an unarmed attack roll. If the result is higher than both the target's attack roll, and AC, then your attack hits and the target's attack is lost. Otherwise, you miss, and the creature's attack is not lost.
You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.


Not only would this kind of change give Monks a nice buff, it'd also make the so called "martial artist" characters actually feel like martial artists. As opposed to just punching hard and often.

this is change I could definitely get behind

[Sindeloke]

Monk damage is actually extremely strong in tier 1 and fine in tier 2, it only really falls off beyond that. Adding a second attack to Martial Arts (so 2 free) & Flurry of Blows (so 3 with ki cost) at level 11 and changing nothing else brings them up to par. (It also has the useful knock-on of keeping a feature literally called "flurry of blows" at least a distant second in its sense of speed and skill to the big slow guy in armor who can hit you nine times in six seconds with an eight-foot axe-ended pole.)

Also wouldn't hurt to go in a different direction and make them better controllers, though, sort of in the vein of what HPisBS suggested. Emphasize their current strengths and make them better specialists. I'd tend to lean more in the direction of "Leg sweep: trip everyone within ten feet of you" or "yielding technique: when an enemy misses, move/shove it X distance in any direction" or "chi blocking strike: your target can't use special class abilities, lair actions, or spells for one turn" kind of thing, though.

[CTurbo]

I think Monk's are a bit under-rated in the damage department. They really aren't that far behind other martials in DPR until you start throwing in feats, but DPR is not really what the Monk is about.

Bumping up the damage die from a d6 to a d12 instead of a d4 to a d10 is not going to break anything and is a reasonable little boost if more DPR is what you're looking for.

My biggest complaint about Monks are the fact that their unarmed strikes never get a boost to the attack roll and to my knowledge there is no magic items to boost this either. I've long house-ruled that starting at level 5, when you roll initiative, you can spend 1 ki to add +1 to all your attack rolls made for unarmed strikes. Starting at level 10, you can spend up to 2 ki for +2 to unarmed attacks. At level 15, you can spend up to 3 ki for +3 to unarmed attacks. I've toyed with the idea of adding that +1/+2/+3 boost to the damage roll too, but in my groups, Bracers of Striking (+2 unarmed damage) is a thing so that boost is not needed.

[cookieface]

Agreed with what others have said.

Monk damage output is fine.

When TCE gave us optional class features, I know I would have rather had more ways to weaponize the Monk's reaction than Focused Aim (or Quickened Healing). Right now, it is only Deflect Missiles, which rarely comes into play.

Personal thought:
Heightened Defense -- At level five, your ability to anticipate enemy attacks is heightened. When an enemy creature attacks you, you may use your reaction and spend 1 ki point to impose disadvantage on attack rolls against you until the end of the current turn.
Evasive Step -- At level nine, your body becomes attuned to rapid movements when in danger. After an enemy hits you with a melee attack, you may use your reaction and spend 1 ki point to move up to half your movement speed (maximum 20 feet) without provoking opportunity attacks.
Combat Flow -- At level fifteen, your understanding of melee combat excels to a degree that you may rapidly counterattack when your enemies make a false move. You gain the following benefits:
- When a creature provokes an opportunity attack from you, you may spend 1 ki point to attack with two Unarmed Strikes rather than a single weapon attack as a reaction.
- After a creature makes a melee attack against you and misses, you may use your reaction and spend 1 ki point to make two Unarmed Strikes against that creature.

All of these are meant to replicate the core three MA abilities, just like Monks get at level two. All three give Monks interesting ways to use their reaction, which seems pretty Martial-Artsy to me.


My biggest complaint about Monks are the fact that their unarmed strikes never get a boost to the attack roll and to my knowledge there is no magic items to boost this either. I've long house-ruled that starting at level 5, when you roll initiative, you can spend 1 ki to add +1 to all your attack rolls made for unarmed strikes. Starting at level 10, you can spend up to 2 ki for +2 to unarmed attacks. At level 15, you can spend up to 3 ki for +3 to unarmed attacks. I've toyed with the idea of adding that +1/+2/+3 boost to the damage roll too, but in my groups, Bracers of Striking (+2 unarmed damage) is a thing so that boost is not needed.

That's an interesting house rule. FWIW, there are both the Insignia of Claws (from HOTDQ) and the Eldritch Claw Tattoo (from TCE) that give +1 to Unarmed Strikes.

Though yes, I think the issue with Monks' reputation is due largely to a lack of viable magic items and feats. When other classes can get GWM and magic weapons/armor all while not falling behind in their primary stat, it makes a class that needs both DEX and WIS while also getting the standard number of ASIs AND an inability to wear armor AND minimal magic item viability fall behind in comparison.

[Waazraath]

My biggest complaint about Monks are the fact that their unarmed strikes never get a boost to the attack roll and to my knowledge there is no magic items to boost this either.

I think there is an obscure item in one of the Dragon Queen books that enhances unarmed strikes (+1 attack/damage)

Edit: Insigna of Claws, hoard of the dragon queen, uncommon item, +1 to hit and damage on unarmed strikes and natural attacks.

[Segev]

A couple random thoughts playing around with some things said in this thread. Not really fixes so much as brainstorming.

1) It isn't hard to make up magic items that give +x bonuses to unarmed strikes, but if you feel them necessary enough that it should be a class feature, perhaps the level 6 ki-infused strikes can get an additional feature: you may use an attunement slot to grant your unarmed strikes a bonus to hit and damage equal to half your proficiency modifier, round down. (+1 at level 6, +2 at level 9, and +3 at level 17.)

2) If you can't increase the amount of ki to bolster things they need more uses of because things that are stronger become too strong, maybe the amount of ki and the cost of ki-using things that are already balanced both can go up. For example, if you double the amount of ki a monk has at any given level, but also double all ki costs except for on Step of the Wind....

[Zhorn]

A small damage boost to Monk isn't going to hurt anything, and a mechanical tweak isn't going to be out of line.
However, if you are going to tweak mechanics, I tend towards the option that executes the widest degree of corrections with the minimal amount of changes.

Segev started a thread a short while back that I think had a lot of potential to address multiple such 'issues' with minimal actual changes.
Another "let's fix Two-Weapon Fighting" thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628106-Another-quot-let-s-fix-Two-Weapon-Fighting-quot-thread)

Moving TWF additional attack off the Bonus Action opens up a great amount of design space. As far as the specifics of the design suggestion he was going for I think was a bit too complicated, but the underlying principle I think is a positive adjustment.
It always seemed like a waste that specific classes were just incompatible with TWF, Monk being one of them. Same with PAM, but as that feat is so prominent as a top DPR pick for other class builds I don't see it worth making a fuss over.
But TWF and Monk feel like a natural pairing, so it would make sense a fix for one should either incorporate or benefit the other.

Segev's other Berserker level 3 reworking (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628103-Berserker-level-3-reworking) thread is a similar case and highlights a further area that could utilise a potential fix. Classes that don't have an in-built ongoing Bonus Action are fine with their GWM+PAM pairings, but if they already have a Bonus Action (Monks, Berserker and Storm Herald Barbarian's, War Clerics, etc) this might be the better purpose of an adjusted TWF.

thoroughlyS's Main-Gauche Fighting Style (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628267-Main-Gauche-Fighting-Style) thread, while I think was not as refined an idea, is still in the same general design space and with some tweaking could be folded into the same set of homebrew adjustments. Where Classes with inbuilt Bonus Actions can fill the fantasy of 2x 1d8 weapons, a Main-Gauche dagger based feat can open up the off-hand dagger build option for classes without native Bonus Actions (a Fighter going for a rapier+dagger combination).

It'll all need a going-over with the math to be sure the ideal pairings/builds don't outperform existing builds, but other methods of being competitive alternatives to such combinations would be desirable.

[HPisBS]

1) It isn't hard to make up magic items that give +x bonuses to unarmed strikes, but if you feel them necessary enough that it should be a class feature, perhaps the level 6 ki-infused strikes can get an additional feature: you may use an attunement slot to grant your unarmed strikes a bonus to hit and damage equal to half your proficiency modifier, round down. (+1 at level 6, +2 at level 9, and +3 at level 17.)

That's an interesting idea. The thought of using attunement slots on something other than magical items had never occurred to me. It makes sense to let a class that's fluffed as being centered / focused on self mastery do that.


2) If you can't increase the amount of ki to bolster things they need more uses of because things that are stronger become too strong, maybe the amount of ki and the cost of ki-using things that are already balanced both can go up. For example, if you double the amount of ki a monk has at any given level, but also double all ki costs except for on Step of the Wind....

In that case, it'd make more sense to just edit Step of the Wind (or fill-in-the-blank) to have some free uses (probably equal to Wis Mod) / long rest and leave everything else the same.

[x3n0n]

In that case, it'd make more sense to just edit Step of the Wind (or fill-in-the-blank) to have some free uses (probably equal to Wis Mod) / long rest and leave everything else the same.

I'm a fan of this kind of thing in general. Ki are especially starved in tier 1, and "small n/day" free uses is the kind of thing that makes the early levels less painful while becoming much less relevant later. It also blunts the "short rest class in a 5-minute-work-day campaign" problem a bit, by giving a daily burst of juice.

If you're not worried about a small number of additional daily ki instead: "You may spend a minute meditating; you regain ki equal to your (Wis mod or proficiency bonus), up to your max ki. You may not do this again until after a long rest."

That would go a long way toward making levels 2-4 more fun, IMO, without unbalancing later tiers. (See especially Elemonk.)

[Sorinth]

I personally don't think they have a damage problem, so I'd much prefer an expanded control options.

But if you want to boost damage and make it a bit more interesting then just extra damage. Give the monk an ability where they get +1 to hit/damage for every hit they scored that turn.

[HPisBS]

I'm a fan of this kind of thing in general. Ki are especially starved in tier 1, and "small n/day" free uses is the kind of thing that makes the early levels less painful while becoming much less relevant later. It also blunts the "short rest class in a 5-minute-work-day campaign" problem a bit, by giving a daily burst of juice.

Glad you like it.


If you're not worried about a small number of additional daily ki instead: "You may spend a minute meditating; you regain ki equal to your (Wis mod or proficiency bonus), up to your max ki. You may not do this again until after a long rest."

That would go a long way toward making levels 2-4 more fun, IMO, without unbalancing later tiers. (See especially Elemonk.)

Now that you mention it, I've always believed Monks should get something like that, but my reasoning was that their lvl 20 capstone is... lackluster. So, I wanted to change things up to something like:


Level 8 2(?): Centering Meditation
- You learn to center yourself with a brief meditation. Whenever you have less than ⅕ of your maximum number of ki points remaining, you may regain 1 ki point per minute of meditation, until your number of ki points equals ⅕ of your monk level, rounded down (to a minimum of 1 ki point).

Level 20: Perfect Self
Patient Defense & Step of the Wind no longer cost ki points.
Focused Reflexes
You can use a bonus action to spend 3 ki points to increase your Dexterity score by 2 for 1 minute. Your maximum Dexterity score also increases by 2 for the duration.


The idea was to move the RAW capstone to a lower level (I was thinking lvl 8, but you may be right that they especially need this at the very beginning), but in a weaker form that slowly gets better until it's about the same as the RAW version at lvl 20. And then to replace the RAW capstone with something that could actually disincentivize multiclassing the way that other good capstones can (like Barbarian or Druid, for example).

But if one were to adopt this change at lvl 2, then it'd probably be appropriate to add a limited number of uses at first, then make it unlimited later on. Wis mod times / long rest should suffice for early levels, I think.

[Segev]

That's an interesting idea. The thought of using attunement slots on something other than magical items had never occurred to me. It makes sense to let a class that's fluffed as being centered / focused on self mastery do that.



In that case, it'd make more sense to just edit Step of the Wind (or fill-in-the-blank) to have some free uses (probably equal to Wis Mod) / long rest and leave everything else the same.

Hard to edit quotes on my phone.

Thanks, the attunement thought was based on what you could invest for long term benefit. Honestly not sure if it isn't too high a cost.


I dislike giving monks a separate pool of uses of features to track. Doubling the ki pool and default doubling costs allows tweaking the costs anywhere things seem undervalued. Or overvalued.

Are Shadow Monk spells too expensive at 2 ki but too good to be 1 ki? When you double the ki pool you could make them 3 ki instead of doubling all the way to 4.

Maybe Flurry of Blows should stay 1 ki even when you double the pool. Maybe not. Maybe it should be one ki for one extra attack when you use Martial Arts, stackable to half you proficency modifier. So spend up to two ki at level nine for 3 unarmed strikes on the bonus action, and up to 3 at level 17 for 4 unarmed strikes. Though with a doubled pool, that is still cheaper than Flurry of Blows is right now.

It just gives more room to tweak ki costs. While keeping it to one thematic pool of resources.



Edit to add:

Another while-I-was-showering thought: New ability type - "Ki Channel." This would NOT be coupled with doubling the ki pool, but is an entirely separate idea for making certain monk abilities still be limited by ki, but not necessarily cost a full ki point on their own.

Ki Channeling
Your ki flows through your body and soul, and you can exploit its movements to empower yourself even as you expend it on other abilities. On any turn in which you start with ki in your ki pool, you can use any number of Ki Channeling features. If you do not spend ki during a turn in which you channel your ki in this way, one ki point is expended at the end of that turn automatically.

Ki Channel: Patient Defense
You can channel your ki to take the Dodge action as a bonus action on your turn.

Ki Channel: Step of the Wind
You can channel your ki to take the Disengage or Dash action as a bonus action on your turn, and your jump distance is doubled for the turn.

Ki Channel: Ki-Fueled Attack
Level 3 Monk Optional Feature
You can channel your ki to make one attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon as a bonus action on your turn, even if you did not take the Attack action as part of that turn.


This is a little complicated, but not too much, I hope. The idea is that you can use these features on any turn you spend ki without spending additional ki, but if you use them without spending ki on anything else, you still spend one ki. So you can't spam them, but you can use them more liberally when you are going to be spamming ki anyway. At the moment, all of these take a bonus action, so you can't really use more than one at a time, but it is possible there are some subclass features that might benefit from being converted to ki channels, as well, so I didn't want to limit you to only one ki channel ability per turn explicitly.

[HPisBS]

Thanks, the attunement thought was based on what you could invest for long term benefit. Honestly not sure if it isn't too high a cost.

Credit where credit's due. :smallsmile:

The cost probably is too high, but I figure it'd just be the default option, rather than the optimal choice. Especially since standard +X weapons don't require attunement, a player would usually prefer to use a Ring of Protection or whatever instead of just +2 to their 1-2 unarmed attacks, for instance. In which case, they'd only attune to their fists (lol) when they don't have any other decent options available.

If you wanted to give them a feature where the self-attunement is roughly equal to good magic items in that tier of play, then you could always just add riders the attacks. The +1 version could add Disarm or Throw Technique to 1 normal unarmed attack / turn, while the +2 version also makes Intercepting Fist free, for instance.



I dislike giving monks a separate pool of uses of features to track.

I concur. Which is part of why I'm more fond of the whole Centering Meditation thing.


Doubling the ki pool and default doubling costs allows tweaking the costs anywhere things seem undervalued. Or overvalued.
-snip-

There is that. But, aside from the lvl 2 things and certain subclasses, I think it's questionable whether most abilities should be cheaper or not. Instead of deliberating on the value of every. single. ki-fueled ability, I'd rather just let Monks take a brief minute to collect themselves and restore 1 or 2 ki pts after they run out. That should be enough to let them move on without the risk of being totally gimped if they run into more trouble.


Edit:

Ki Channeling
-snip-

An interesting compromise. This would effectively make b.a. dodge / disengage free for most of combat, assuming you'd want to spend at least 1 ki to stun / turn. And it'd insert some extra tension when you get down to your last ki point.

Kind of the opposite to my approach of reducing the tension from running completely dry.

[Segev]

An interesting compromise. This would effectively make b.a. dodge / disengage free for most of combat, assuming you'd want to spend at least 1 ki to stun / turn. And it'd insert some extra tension when you get down to your last ki point.

Kind of the opposite to my approach of reducing the tension from running completely dry.

In my experience playing a monk at level 3, there are lots of times I've wished I could afford the ki point to bonus action dash, but I knew I would need it for Flurry when I finally closed all the way. At the same time, it keeps Step of the Wind from being entirely free. An ability to regain ki when you're empty means you essentially always have a bonus action dash and doubled jump distance if you're using it out of combat, while I think the balance idea behind the ki cost is that it's not something the monk can do all day long (unlike the rogue, who can bonus action dash all the time).

I think a monk feeling the tension of running out of ki is intentional, which is why I am looking more towards making the "not quite worth 1 ki point" features cost ki to use on their own, but not compete with other ki-burning features on the same turn.

[HPisBS]

... An ability to regain ki when you're empty means you essentially always have a bonus action dash and doubled jump distance if you're using it out of combat, while I think the balance idea behind the ki cost is that it's not something the monk can do all day long (unlike the rogue, who can bonus action dash all the time)....

Remember, Centering Meditation was written to take 1 minute / point, and it's only usable until you reach 1/5 of your max pool, rounded down. So it wouldn't let you spam ki-based abilities by any stretch. You'd get your extra 40+ ft of movement once, then stop, do your lotus position for a full minute, jump up, rinse and repeat. Not really made for constant use lol.



I think a monk feeling the tension of running out of ki is intentional, which is why I am looking more towards making the "not quite worth 1 ki point" features cost ki to use on their own, but not compete with other ki-burning features on the same turn.

Perfectly reasonable.

Edit:

... feeling the tension of running out of ki is intentional....

Indeed, one could say it's... intensional.

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