Unsubbtle bladesinger

[Flik9999]

I just thought up a fun combo for an unsubtle bladesinger.

level 1 fighter level 6 wizard

Str based.
Weapon: Hammer or maul
Feats: Crusher

Hit em with booming blade then knock em back with your basic attack. They have to move or take an extra 2d8. What peoples thoughts on it? Would it work? Would it be a cool representation of fighter/mage.

[JackalTornMoons]

Any level 1 minotaur with booming blade can do this too 😀 or a custom lineage boomer with Telekinesis. Or a lvl 3 half elf (high elf lineage) Swarm Ranger. Level 5 half-elf (high elf lineage) can also throw down some Spike Growth too for added fun.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Sounds similar to the character I'm going to play in RotFM, though I hadn't planned Crusher. I was going Blindfighting style to focus on getting advantage and GWM, though you've given me something to think about for later levels if I end up with an odd Str score.
I think the bladeSTRinger is a viable option through tier 2 and 3.

[Gale]

A STR-based Bladesinger is doable, but I don't really see a reason to build one. It's extremely MAD (multiple attribute dependent), as you need STR for attack and damage, DEX for AC, CON for health, and INT for spells and AC. If you multiclass for Heavy Armor proficiency, then you end up unable to use Bladesong, your main class feature. At which point, I start to wonder why you're playing a Bladesinger to begin with if you have no intentions to "bladesing."

However, if you are insistent on it, then I'd recommend Paladin 1 -> Bladesinger 6 -> Paladin 2. This gets you Heavy Armor Proficiency, a Fighting Style, and Divine Smite, which you can make great use of thanks to all your Wizard spell slots. Just be warned, multi-classing requirements are steep.

Alternatively, if you just wanted to use Crusher while still being a normal, DEX-based Bladesinger, then I would recommend a single level of Monk. This lets you use a quarterstaff with your dexterity modifier. You can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, which is at least slightly better than Two-Weapon Fighting. As an added bonus, a staff (as in the spell focus) generally counts as a quarterstaff as well. Not massively useful, but still neat.

But in all seriousness, Mobile is nearly as good, if not better than Crusher if all you want is to force the enemy to chase after you. Just keep in mind that with both feats, the enemy will have no reason to chase after you if another one of your party members engages them in melee before its the enemy's turn. They will simply attack them instead of moving. I've seen this happen a lot when I've tried to use Booming Blade. Which has made me conclude that you shouldn't try too hard to build a character around the cantrip. It's nice when the rider effect triggers, but don't expect it to happen all the time.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

A STR-based Bladesinger is doable, but I don't really see a reason to build one. It's extremely MAD (multiple attribute dependent), as you need STR for attack and damage, DEX for AC, CON for health, and INT for spells and AC. If you multiclass for Heavy Armor proficiency, then you end up unable to use Bladesong, your main class feature. At which point, I start to wonder why you're playing a Bladesinger to begin with if you have no intentions to "bladesing."

However, if you are insistent on it, then I'd recommend Paladin 1 -> Bladesinger 6 -> Paladin 2. This gets you Heavy Armor Proficiency, a Fighting Style, and Divine Smite, which you can make great use of thanks to all your Wizard spell slots. Just be warned, multi-classing requirements are steep.

Alternatively, if you just wanted to use Crusher while still being a normal, DEX-based Bladesinger, then I would recommend a single level of Monk. This lets you use a quarterstaff with your dexterity modifier. You can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, which is at least slightly better than Two-Weapon Fighting.

But in all seriousness, Mobile is nearly as good, if not better than Crusher if all you want is to force the enemy to chase after you. Just keep in mind that with both feats, the enemy will have no reason to chase after you if another one of your party members engages them in melee before its the enemy's turn. They will simply attack them instead of moving. I've seen this happen a lot when I've tried to use Booming Blade. Which has made me conclude that you shouldn't try too hard to build a character around the cantrip. It's nice when the rider effect triggers, but don't expect it to happen all the time.

You don't need bladesong (which is mediocre until you get mulitple ASIs and is limited in fighting styles) or Dex. The main reason to play this M/C character is that by level 7 (6/1) you get a superior version of multiattack to every other class/subclass in the game as 1 of the attacks is a Blade Cantrip and you can use 2 handed weapons/ feats. Further you can support this fighting with 3rd level spells.
My bladeSTRinger is just going to yell at his opponents (instead of sing) while he pounds them to dust.

[Gale]

You don't need bladesong (which is mediocre until you get mulitple ASIs and is limited in fighting styles) or Dex. The main reason to play this M/C character is that by level 7 (6/1) you get a superior version of multiattack to every other class/subclass in the game as 1 of the attacks is a Blade Cantrip and you can use 2 handed weapons/ feats. Further you can support this fighting with 3rd level spells.
My bladeSTRinger is just going to yell at his opponents (instead of sing) while he pounds them to dust.

I don't think the level of Fighter is worth it personally. No hard feelings to anyone who likes the muscle wizard aesthetic, it's just not for me.

One of my main issues is that your AC is generally lower. At level 1, Bladesingers have 13 AC from Mage Armor, another +3 from DEX, and +3 from INT for 19 AC. AC goes up as you increase your ability scores.
Meanwhile, a level 1 Fighter starts off with chain mail for 16 AC. They can increase this to 17 if they take the Protection Fighting Style. If they use a shield too then it goes up to 19, but you'll lose one of your main benefits of being able to use two-handed weapons. Eventually they get plate armor, which gives them an 18 AC, 19 AC with Protection, 21 AC with Protection and a shield. Not bad, but it's still worse than a normal Bladesinger's AC without the shield. Plate armor also costs 1,500 gp, which is worth at least 3 uncommon magic items.

Shadowblade also makes using a heavy weapon unnecessary. Haste and a Greatsword will do about the same damage as Shadowblade, but Shadowblade wins out in dim-light or darkness. Shadowblade also has the advantage of only costing a bonus action to cast, meaning your overall damage per round is going to be higher. Admittedly, a Greatsword is a better source of concentration-free damage compared to a rapier. But it's just not something I can see myself investing too heavily into when it means slowing down my progression of class abilities, especially spells. I'm always going to be thinking to myself, "Dang, I could have Polymorph/Animate Objects/Tenser's Transformation right now."

I'll admit, a STR Bladesinger is by no means bad. It's perfectly playable, especially if you want to lean into melee-fighting more than spellcasting. It's just not my cup of tea. I don't think it's optimal, but D&D isn't always about playing the bestest, strongest character evur. Play whatever makes you happy.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I don't think the level of Fighter is worth it personally. No hard feelings to anyone who likes the muscle wizard aesthetic, it's just not for me.

One of my main issues is that your AC is generally lower. At level 1, Bladesingers have 13 AC from Mage Armor, another +3 from DEX, and +3 from INT for 19 AC. AC goes up as you increase your ability scores.
Meanwhile, a level 1 Fighter starts off with chain mail for 16 AC. They can increase this to 17 if they take the Protection Fighting Style. If they use a shield too then it goes up to 19, but you'll lose one of your main benefits of being able to use two-handed weapons. Eventually they get plate armor, which gives them an 18 AC, 19 AC with Protection, 21 AC with Protection and a shield. Not bad, but it's still worse than a normal Bladesinger's AC without the shield. Plate armor also costs 1,500 gp, which is worth at least 3 uncommon magic items.

Shadowblade also makes using a heavy weapon unnecessary. Haste and a Greatsword will do about the same damage as Shadowblade, but Shadowblade wins out in dim-light or darkness. Shadowblade also has the advantage of only costing a bonus action to cast, meaning your overall damage per round is going to be higher. Admittedly, a Greatsword is a better source of concentration-free damage compared to a rapier. But it's just not something I can see myself investing too heavily into when it means slowing down my progression of class abilities, especially spells. I'm always going to be thinking to myself, "Dang, I could have Polymorph/Animate Objects/Tenser's Transformation right now."

I'll admit, a STR Bladesinger is by no means bad. It's perfectly playable, especially if you want to lean into melee-fighting more than spellcasting. It's just not my cup of tea. I don't think it's optimal, but D&D isn't always about playing the bestest, strongest character evur. Play whatever makes you happy.

Fair enough if you don't like the aesthetic. I'm not a real big fan of dex based melee martials or elves in general, which is one of the reasons the Str based build attracted me.

I do think your AC comparison is a bit out of context. 1) You base your Dex based BS on Mage Armor, which is a limited resource and would require 3 * 1st level spells to be active all day. I'd be more likely to just use light armor and forgo the 1 AC point for extra spells, particularly at low levels. 2) Yes 1st level fighters start with Chain, but often by 2nd (when the BS gets bladesong) or certainly 3rd you've got at least splint. 3) Bladesong is limited to 3 uses per day at the level the OP is talking about, and without it the rest of the time your AC is clearly worse.

I don't really want to get into another debate over Shadow Blade, but I just don't think it's that good. Yes in campaigns with a lot of darkness, few magic items, and few encounters it can be. However, I really don't think a BS is a good character to base around SB because it uses concentration, and you don't have the benefit of a shield. Even at low levels you have access to Web, and can generate reliable advantage and power attack with a 2H Weapon (hopefully a magic one.)

[Gale]

Fair enough if you don't like the aesthetic. I'm not a real big fan of dex based melee martials or elves in general, which is one of the reasons the Str based build attracted me.

I do think your AC comparison is a bit out of context. 1) You base your Dex based BS on Mage Armor, which is a limited resource and would require 3 * 1st level spells to be active all day. I'd be more likely to just use light armor and forgo the 1 AC point for extra spells, particularly at low levels. 2) Yes 1st level fighters start with Chain, but often by 2nd (when the BS gets bladesong) or certainly 3rd you've got at least splint. 3) Bladesong is limited to 3 uses per day at the level the OP is talking about, and without it the rest of the time your AC is clearly worse.

I don't really want to get into another debate over Shadow Blade, but I just don't think it's that good. Yes in campaigns with a lot of darkness, few magic items, and few encounters it can be. However, I really don't think a BS is a good character to base around SB because it uses concentration, and you don't have the benefit of a shield. Even at low levels you have access to Web, and can generate reliable advantage and power attack with a 2H Weapon (hopefully a magic one.)

I think is where different DM'ing styles comes into play. Personally, when I've played a Wizard I didn't need to cast Mage Armor more than once a day. I usually didn't cast it at all until we were going someplace dangerous, and that foray into danger never lasted more than 8 hours. We usually don't get into more than 3 fights per day either, in fact, we oftentimes go entire sessions with no fights at all. So, 3 uses of Bladesong is just fine. But I know at some tables these kinds of things are unheard of.

I do think Shadowblade is pretty good, but I'll concede it's overrated. It's a good tool when you need it, but nothing something I would bust out at every fight. There are often better spells, including Web like you mentioned.

I do concede a STR-Bladesinger offers a lot of on-demand damage, which is good. But I just don't like the slower spell progression, and I feel like it strays a bit too far from how the class was intended to play. It makes me feel like I should be playing a College of Swords Bard or maybe a Hexblade Warlock instead. Regardless, it's still a good build that offers some advantages over the typical Bladesinger. Despite my grievances I'd happily play a Paladin/Bladesinger. Maybe even, Cleric/Bladesinger or Hexblade/Bladesinger. But I don't think Fighter/Bladesinger is nearly as good of a choice. Action Surge might be really useful? But otherwise I don't think it's worth it for just the single level.

[Eldariel]

It's worth noting that the Fighter dip is entirely optional; Mountain Dwarf, Hobgoblin or Githyanki among other options can do it straight out of the gate, especially with Tasha's rules enabling you to pick up heavy weapons. This would let you get Extra Attack on schedule while still being a full Wizard. I've actually got a character like that in one of my campaigns right now; Mountain Dwarf who started 16 Str/14 Dex/16 Con/14 Int and spends much of their time smashing face in melee. He went Abjurer because New Bladesinger wasn't out when the character was made but the concept works just fine. He still rolls with utility spells and some blasting and whatnot (they just attacked a Goblin stronghold and he made excellent use of Fireball there, frying the party something severe too since I run AD&D Fireball). Of course, since the character was made without Tasha's rules, he's stuck two-handing Warhammer instead of some of the more excellent options that are open if you go this route and he doesn't have Crusher (he's just put his level-ups into improving Int).

[JackPhoenix]

One of my main issues is that your AC is generally lower. At level 1, Bladesingers have 13 AC from Mage Armor, another +3 from DEX, and +3 from INT for 19 AC. AC goes up as you increase your ability scores.

Level 1 Bladesingers don't have AC 19. Or exist.

[Mikal]

Tempest Cleric with magic initiate and crusher does it better and is more thematic in my opinion.
Especially when Divine Strike comes online.

Even better if you can get a "Lightning Strike" Maul (aka homebrewed flametongue or frostblade, but lightning damage)

Then you get the 5 ft. from crusher AND an additional 10 ft potentially.

[Kurt Kurageous]

The first custom I did was for a player who wanted a minotaur bard. This was in 2015, pre-volo.

I wrote an entire backstory for the race, including the surgery they had to do to be able to sing at all. I imagined a minotaur being more operatic in their singing style.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I think is where different DM'ing styles comes into play. Personally, when I've played a Wizard I didn't need to cast Mage Armor more than once a day. I usually didn't cast it at all until we were going someplace dangerous, and that foray into danger never lasted more than 8 hours. We usually don't get into more than 3 fights per day either, in fact, we oftentimes go entire sessions with no fights at all. So, 3 uses of Bladesong is just fine. But I know at some tables these kinds of things are unheard of.

I do think Shadowblade is pretty good, but I'll concede it's overrated. It's a good tool when you need it, but nothing something I would bust out at every fight. There are often better spells, including Web like you mentioned.

I do concede a STR-Bladesinger offers a lot of on-demand damage, which is good. But I just don't like the slower spell progression, and I feel like it strays a bit too far from how the class was intended to play. It makes me feel like I should be playing a College of Swords Bard or maybe a Hexblade Warlock instead. Regardless, it's still a good build that offers some advantages over the typical Bladesinger. Despite my grievances I'd happily play a Paladin/Bladesinger. Maybe even, Cleric/Bladesinger or Hexblade/Bladesinger. But I don't think Fighter/Bladesinger is nearly as good of a choice. Action Surge might be really useful? But otherwise I don't think it's worth it for just the single level.

My plan was 3-4 levels of Fighter (probably Battlemaster) to try to make something that played like a true multiclass. The other options are interesting, though at my table 2 levels of Paladin or 1 of Hexblade would be met with eye rolls. I'm going to check into some of the Heavy Armor/ Weapon Cleric options though, I could see that working.

[Gale]

Level 1 Bladesingers don't have AC 19. Or exist.

My bad, I tend to forget that Wizards don't get their Arcane Tradition until Level 2.


My plan was 3-4 levels of Fighter (probably Battlemaster) to try to make something that played like a true multiclass. The other options are interesting, though at my table 2 levels of Paladin or 1 of Hexblade would be met with eye rolls. I'm going to check into some of the Heavy Armor/ Weapon Cleric options though, I could see that working.

I can understand the eye rolls. But personally, I think Paladin 2 is perfectly acceptable, if not somewhat expected by the game designers. It's pretty much my favorite way to directly enhance my martial ability through my magic, and honestly I just love roleplaying the "pious knight" concept.

Hexblade 1 on other hand is less defensible. I really wish they moved some of their abilities to Pact of the Blade, and reworked the class to be less front-loaded. Either way, I should say that I don't think it's that great actually for STR-Bladesingers. The curse is nice, as is some of the exclusive Warlocks spells, but you're stuck with Medium Armor which is bad.

Cleric 1 works way better in my opinion and is less likely to get a book thrown at you. Tempest, Twilight, and War all seem like good options. Although, Twilight might still induce some heavy eye rolls.

[Darthnazrael]

It makes me feel like I should be playing a College of Swords Bard[...]
I've been thinking lately that Swords/Valor Bards should get the Bladesinger version of Extra Attack. I'm thinking I'll probably house rule that as an option at my table from now on.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I've been thinking lately that Swords/Valor Bards should get the Bladesinger version of Extra Attack. I'm thinking I'll probably house rule that as an option at my table from now on.

This is the problem with the BS version, being superior to other Extra Attacks. This is the single reason I'm planning a Strength based BS instead of an EK. There is a tendency to think that the Bards as well as the EK should get something similar, and the power creep continues. I think it is important to remember that the BS version is very limited in terms of fighting style and armor or it forfits the Bladesinging ability.