Make Red Dragons Great Again!

[RNightstalker]

I need help retrofitting a Great Wyrm. I'm already thinking of adapting gloves of dexterity, ring of protection, and 3.0 DR. Primary concerns are feats and spell selections, other outside the box stuff.

Disclaimer: the "there are so many things better than a dragon" crowd need not apply.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I need help retrofitting a Great Wyrm. I'm already thinking of adapting gloves of dexterity, ring of protection, and 3.0 DR. Primary concerns are feats and spell selections, other outside the box stuff.

Disclaimer: the "there are so many things better than a dragon" crowd need not apply.What are you needing this for, exactly, and what do you want from us?

[Crake]

Disclaimer: the "there are so many things better than a dragon" crowd need not apply.

I think most of the playground actually agrees that true dragons are woefully under CRed, for any given CR, there's usually little better than a true dragon.

As for their ability scores, if you don't like them having 10 dex, adding either a single PC class level (or a prc if you can qualify, there's a bunch of dragon specific ones in the draconomicon) allows you to give the dragon the elite array, or, if you don't want to give them any class levels, you can still give them the elite array for a simple +1 to the dragon's CR.

[HouseRules]

Give everything Racial Hit Dices equal to their age as a bonus that does not count towards ECL.

Now dragons have so many more Hit Dices.

[Anthrowhale]

Use the feat 'Keeper of the Forbidden Lore' to get Spellcraft as a class skill, then take Epic Spellcasting.

Use Shapechange to turn into a Formian Queen, Mindsight to get a 50 mile range of intelligence detection, then polymorph into something like a Kelvezu with fantastic dexterity. Use a Persistent Strength of the True Form to have Str 45/Dex 31/Con 31/Int 26/Wis 27/Cha 26 with natural armor +39. Convert this to a deflection bonus via persistent Scintillating Scales so the touch AC is 59.

[RNightstalker]

I think most of the playground actually agrees that true dragons are woefully under CRed, for any given CR, there's usually little better than a true dragon.


I apologize, just trying to cut things off at the pass so to say.


Use the feat 'Keeper of the Forbidden Lore' to get Spellcraft as a class skill, then take Epic Spellcasting.

Use Shapechange to turn into a Formian Queen, Mindsight to get a 50 mile range of intelligence detection, then polymorph into something like a Kelvezu with fantastic dexterity. Use a Persistent Strength of the True Form to have Str 45/Dex 31/Con 31/Int 26/Wis 27/Cha 26 with natural armor +39. Convert this to a deflection bonus via persistent Scintillating Scales so the touch AC is 59.

I'm converting Dragon Mountain to 3.x so I need to keep the dragon as a dragon for obvious reasons. Using epic spellcasting at a party that will be around 15 or so probably isn't cool either. But thanks for the ideas as I'll have to use the shapechange line for another encounter idea.

[False God]

If you're looking to cheese up a standard dragon to make it not a pushover for a 15th-level party (which it possibly could be if your party is optimized and smart), I always like to refer to:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-(WIP)

And of course, adding class levels is always a good way to give a dragon something it doesn't get by default, certainly the additional HD and saves and BAB will affect the CR, but you could always ignore those and simply add all the neat class elements, still affects CR, but less so.

[Biggus]

What are you needing this for, exactly, and what do you want from us?

I'm not entirely clear what we're being asked for either. OP, could you explain in a bit more detail?

[smasher0404]

This (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-(WIP)) may be a helpful resource for getting started.

Spell-wise, Scintillating Scales (Draconomicon) is a big call-out, since it help boosts the dragon's touch ac (which is woefully low due to low Dexterity and being Colossal). Wraithstrike(Complete Adventurer) is also great given the Dragon's natural bulk and bounty of natural attacks, making the beatstick even less likely to want to engage in close combat with your dragon. If the party is unlikely to have True Seeing up, Disguise Self can be a fairly cheap way of misleading the party (make your Red Dragon appear to be a White Dragon and watch as they prepare mostly Fire spells for the encounter), however given the level that tactic has a high probability of failure.

If you aren't against upping the CR, Half-Dragon is funnily enough an applicable template to add to True Dragons, and with the right selection can provide an immunity to the Dragon's elemental weakness. There are also feats in the Draconomicon that mitigate that weakness, but I find Half-Dragon personally more amusing.

If you are running low on time (or trying to make the dragon weaker for the party), you may want to consider the Xorvintaal template (Monster Manual V). Xorvintaal has a bit of cool fluff, but more importantly it side-steps the difficulty of spell selection by granting some flavorful weaker abilities instead of spellcasting, it is also an excuse to retrofit other NPC servants of the dragon with the ability to effectively run away from the party by virtue of being Exarchs (a template found in the same book).

[RNightstalker]

I'm not entirely clear what we're being asked for either. OP, could you explain in a bit more detail?


As I mentioned above, I'm converting Dragon Mountain to 3.x and need to convert a Great Wyrm that won't get one-shot. The example Very Old Red Dragon in the MM has Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes which just aren't good, at all. It also has Great Cleave, Awesome Blow, and Improved Bull Rush which really aren't good at all. I'm not expecting there to be a need for Great Cleave against a 15th level or so party. Awesome Blow isn't really that awesome, and if there's no need for that, then the pre-req IBR isn't really needed either.

I'm also weak when it comes to Sorcerer casting. If metamagic feats are going to make casting a full round action IIRC, I see that as a major hamstring, especially in this scenario.



Scintillating Scales (Draconomicon) is a big call-out, since it help boosts the dragon's touch ac (which is woefully low due to low Dexterity and being Colossal). Wraithstrike(Complete Adventurer) is also great given the Dragon's natural bulk and bounty of natural attacks, making the beatstick even less likely to want to engage in close combat with your dragon. If the party is unlikely to have True Seeing up, Disguise Self can be a fairly cheap way of misleading the party (make your Red Dragon appear to be a White Dragon and watch as they prepare mostly Fire spells for the encounter), however given the level that tactic has a high probability of failure.


Scintillating Scales is now on the spell list. Thanks! Any other ideas on raising touch AC, Dex and Initiative?

[Particle_Man]

How tough do you want to go? This template can make most things tougher: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm

And if you have it meet people in Tentacle Mass form they might not realize they have met the big boss Dragon yet.

[DMVerdandi]

I need help retrofitting a Great Wyrm. I'm already thinking of adapting gloves of dexterity, ring of protection, and 3.0 DR. Primary concerns are feats and spell selections, other outside the box stuff.

Disclaimer: the "there are so many things better than a dragon" crowd need not apply.

Hmm... Well, if you are the dungeon master, that gives you a LOT more flexibility, cause you can do whatever you want.

Personally, I'd alter true dragons so they can have more access to dragony things. For them all but this one in particular [red]

1. Give them access to casting as spirit shaman with the wizard/sorc and druid list and spontaneous casting of evil, chaos domains, draconic, rune, skalykind, and all of the sin domains.

Can also replace slots daily for draconic auras and dragonfire invocations using HD as Dragonfire adept level.

Give em spell points and have them cast from charisma, and gain extra spell points from constitution.
Advance casting so that wyrmling casts as 5th level caster. Advance each age category by +3cr.


2.Give them changable bonus feats. 1 feat per age category of dragon. Each feat can be used for a metabreath, metamagic, draconic, dragonblooded, or monster feats, and can be changed each day.

3.Alternate form, half-dragon form, and hidden strength feats also as bonus feats.


Schrodinger's dragon.
Personally this is how I think they should be anyway. Especially reds.
Why are they so absolutely horrible? Because they are ALWAYS ready. ALWAYS. with these changes dragons are fully representative of being masters of magic and instead of just big dinos with subpar sorcerer casting thrown on them. sorcerer sucks anyway and isn't indicative of a creature with ever evolving magical knowledge and flexibility.

This is more like a naturally adaptable superpredator who always changes with new threats and situations. Feats and magic to them are more like...concepts. Ideas that they can execute with force of will and fire. Prep time and knowledge suddenly become WAY WAY WAAAAY more important to dragons because it influences how they will make the subtle changes in their physiology to dominate the issues.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

One of the most important parts of a good dragon fight is putting it in a proper lair (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?322346-Volcanic-mountain-cavern-style-dungeon-as-red-dragon-lair#2). (Here's an updated Obsidian Ooze (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20031123a) link.)

As for the dragon itself, it has 40 HD, which means seven normal feats plus seven epic feats. It has Sorcerer 19 spellcasting, and can also learn Cleric spells and anything from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains.

Feats should be Practiced Spellcaster, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Flyby Attack, and Hover pre-epic, and Fast Healing, Automatic Quicken x3, and Multispell x3 for the epic feats.

If you're giving him specific magic items, include Armbands of Might in MIC with a +6 enhancement to Str and Dex per MIC p234, and a custom Runestaff per MIC p224 with thematically appropriate spells: Primal Hunter/Instinct/Senses/Speed from Dragon Magic.

Spells Known:
0th (9): Whatever looks fun.
1st (5): Shield, Alarm, Protection from Good, Nerveskitter, Sign
2nd (5): Wings of Cover, Wraithstrike, Scintillating Scales, Ray of Stupidity, Heart of Air
3rd (4): Greater Mage Armor, Protection from Energy, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Heart of Water
4th (4): Blinding Breath, Wings of Flurry, Ray Deflection, Heart of Earth
5th (4): Dismissal, Teleport, Heart of Fire, True Seeing
6th (3): Contingency, Heal, Antimagic Field
7th (3): Ironguard, Limited Wish, Destruction
8th (3): Chain Dispel, Prismatic Wall, Superior Invisibility
9th (2): Time Stop, Miracle

Daily buffs: Persistent Wraithstrike, Greater Mage Armor, Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, Persistent Shield, and Primal Hunter/Instinct/Senses/Speed if he has the Runestaff as above.

The Contingency casts Teleport if he believes he's about to be defeated.

He keeps Alarm cast around his lair, and uses Clairaudience/Clairvoyance to investigate when one is triggered. He'll buff himself with Sign, Protection from Good, Protection from Energy (Cold), Scintillating Scales, Ray Deflection, Ironguard, and Superior Invisibility whenever enemies are approaching.

Between Nerveskitter and Sign it should have a decent initiative. If something that looks strong comes at it with a charge attack it can use Wings of Cover to automatically block the attack. Multispell means it can do up to four of those each turn, but each one takes away one of its automatic quickened spells on the following round.

It should start out by Chain Dispelling all the opponents, using Blinding Breath and flyby attack breathing on all of them, and using Prismatic Wall to keep all but one or two opponents at bay.
Second turn it should already be close enough (flying above) to drop down and full attack the opponents on this side of the wall. Power Attack for -40 because it has Persistent Wraithstrike. Use Destruction on anyone that has light or no armor and/or Ray of Stupidity any animals or other low-Int pets with them (or hit a frothing angry warrior with that a few times).
Once the opponents on this side of the wall are dead, it can reach through the Prismatic Wall as needed, and its Blindsense will allow it to pinpoint opponents on the other side. It can come through, Chain Dispel them again, Blinding Breath them all again, and Wings of Flurry everyone a couple times.
If it gets dispelled/disjoined it can Time Stop and put all its buffs back on. It may be able to use Miracle to undo getting dispelled instead. Also keep in mind that Teleport is automatically quickened so it can pop around a bunch in one turn.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can always change things up by giving it an Eberron draconic archetype. Nobody expects The Spanish Inquisition druid casting on a red. Or initiator levels.

You can also switch things up so that the dragon's lair is surrounded by Tucker's Kobolds, with trap/ambushes (trampbushes?)

Waste the party's resources taking care of surprisingly difficult lowish level mobs before funneling them toward the threat at the end. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?155518-Tucker-s-Kobolds-PEACH-3-5&p=8664950&viewfull=1#post8664950) Note that the kobolds are probably higher level due to being the guardians to such an awe-inspiring example of draconic might. Make them mid-level casters and factotums and swordsages and such, instead of level 1-4, and you can get a lot more challenge out of them.

And give the dragon some high level lieutenant kobolds. Preferably ones that can improve its survivability. Some White Raven maneuvers on a half-dozen kobold initiators can seriously increase a dragon's lethality against a group that otherwise outnumbers it.

[Rebel7284]

Craft Contingent Spell. It really helps with the actions and your party is likely to trigger many of them.

[RNightstalker]

Craft Contingent Spell. It really helps with the actions and your party is likely to trigger many of them.

1 Contingent Spell per HD...we need an evil grin!:biggrin:

[Anthrowhale]

I'm converting Dragon Mountain to 3.x so I need to keep the dragon as a dragon for obvious reasons. Using epic spellcasting at a party that will be around 15 or so probably isn't cool either. But thanks for the ideas as I'll have to use the shapechange line for another encounter idea.
Increasing the difficulty of a CR 26 monster while keeping it viable for a level 15 party seems tricky. Perhaps some discussion of the party's optimization level is important here.

[Feldar]

First, remember that the dragon is much, much smarter than the party.

I once put a red dragon with a hat of disguise and a ring of major resistance to cold inside a cave in the frozen north. The party never bothered to check and prepared tons of fire spells when they went after the dragon. They only managed to defeat the dragon through the use of a wish from a ring.



You can also switch things up so that the dragon's lair is surrounded by Tucker's Kobolds, with trap/ambushes (trampbushes?)

Waste the party's resources taking care of surprisingly difficult lowish level mobs before funneling them toward the threat at the end. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?155518-Tucker-s-Kobolds-PEACH-3-5&p=8664950&viewfull=1#post8664950) Note that the kobolds are probably higher level due to being the guardians to such an awe-inspiring example of draconic might. Make them mid-level casters and factotums and swordsages and such, instead of level 1-4, and you can get a lot more challenge out of them.

And give the dragon some high level lieutenant kobolds. Preferably ones that can improve its survivability. Some White Raven maneuvers on a half-dozen kobold initiators can seriously increase a dragon's lethality against a group that otherwise outnumbers it.
The kobolds should be smart enough to maim the party and deplete their resources without fully commiting themselves to battle. When the chips are down, single monster vs the party is a losing recipe. On the other hand, with those kobolds helping the dragon wins the action count. 50 or so regular kobolds aren't going to affect the CR of that fight at all, but they can all target the same character with their attacks in a pre-determined order. Give it enough shots and they will get some hits. Toss in some kobold sorcerors to counterspell the mage and cleric.

Don't have the dragon do anything stupid, like get into melee, until the odds are heavily in its favor. Use superior mobility, hit and run tactics, and intimate knowledge of the lair to fight on the dragon's terms. Have the dragon's magical support take out anyone who tries to ruin the dragon's mobility or counter it with their own.

[remetagross]

I happen to have submitted a Red Dragon as an application to the Villainous Competition in the past (my first ever gold medal, by the way :smallbiggrin:). My Dragon was art-obsessed and trying to steal whatever artistic items he could find and add it to his lair, and wanting to outperform every bard he might encounter. Fun times. You might not care about that fluff, but the crunch was:

He's got some Bard spellcasting, a focus on combining breath spells and metabreath feats, and there's a detailed breakdown on how he fights and how to make him weaker/stronger at various level ranges. By cranking up all the knobs to the max, he is actually extremely powerful and can hold his own against all manners of optimized parties. If you want to take a look for ideas:

Link (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=21400466&postcount=115)

[Crake]

I'm also weak when it comes to Sorcerer casting. If metamagic feats are going to make casting a full round action IIRC, I see that as a major hamstring, especially in this scenario.

The rapid metamagic feat from complete mage removes this drawback completely, only requires 12 ranks in spellcraft, so easily qualify.

[Anthrowhale]

The rapid metamagic feat from complete mage removes this drawback completely, only requires 12 ranks in spellcraft, so easily qualify.

It may be worth considering the feat Invisible Spell and the spell Arcane Spellsurge instead. Invisible spell provides sometimes-useful mechanics and as a universal +0 metamagic it can be applied-or-not to spells so as to enable casting 2 spells/round while Arcane Spellsurge is active. The package together is something like Automatic Quicken x3 + Rapid Metamagic + actual uses of Invisible Spell.

[Xervous]

Much like with so many movie villains, while it’s easy enough to punch the tar out of them in a small room it can be a rather long journey to get there. It’s best to think of dragons more like sentient environmental hazards than a bulk of teeth like swords and fingers like knives (alone they’ll be rather sad like knives). A level 5 party that has only rudimentary flight can’t do much to a strafing fly(150) dragon that never remains exposed for a full attack. It’s only by lucky hits from select spells (that smart dragons should prepare for) or narrative circumstances that the players will get their dragon melee piñata.

The quest is to slay the dragon, doing the sword work is easy enough, it’s getting to the part where you can sword it to death that’s hard.

[Crake]

It may be worth considering the feat Invisible Spell and the spell Arcane Spellsurge instead. Invisible spell provides sometimes-useful mechanics and as a universal +0 metamagic it can be applied-or-not to spells so as to enable casting 2 spells/round while Arcane Spellsurge is active. The package together is something like Automatic Quicken x3 + Rapid Metamagic + actual uses of Invisible Spell.

In addition to, I'd maybe agree with, but you're not always gonna reasonably have arcane spellsurge up, and even when you DO, it's at risk of being dispelled. Plus, arcane spellsurge has a round of set up time which sometimes you can't afford.

[Segev]

Action deficit is the greatest killer of Big Bad Single Monsters vs. any party. If the party isn't so badly outmatched that their actions are meaningless, the ability of the party to hit more times than the dragon will win the fight, and often leads to it feeling anticlimactic.

Adding kobolds as minions is an interesting idea. Make them fire-immune either by special template (literally, just gives them fire immunity) or by magic items, and then give them environmental traps to control to up their action efficacy.

Alternatively, have their job be to sneak up and steal items off the PCs. They're going for rings, cloaks, and other things that might grant elemental resistances. Not only are these nice tributes for their master's hoard, but they will weaken the party and make the players' characters mad, possibly leading to chasing them through...more traps.

Now, dragons have a massive number of attacks, if you look at all of their options: 2 claws, bite, wing slaps, tail slaps... these start to add up. But they have to be divided between the PCs to some extent, and PCs will either have really powerful single effects (spells) or massive multiattacks of their own, and there are more of them. The fighter can hit 3-8 times in the same round the wizard casts disintegrate, while the dragon can multiattack or breathe.

Dragons can retake some of this ground by making fights happen on their terms. Breathe from far enough away that only one or two characters can hit them; use flyby to force people to ready actions rather than take full turns. Having a big space to fly around in with pools and pits of lava is both thematic and useful for shoving PCs around. That chain dispel and the kobolds stealing their magic items will soften them up and make their ability to ignore fire damage far less than they perhaps had planned.

If directly giving the dragon minions feels unsatisfying, have its lair be a set of minions. Give various environmental features actions in the initiative order and let them make attacks, or change the terrain, or both. A handful of small fumeroles that spit lava-gobs every round but can be hammered into rubble so they're sealed off make good non-creature "minions" that fill a creature-like role. Or maybe they cast and maintain stinking cloud or poisonous cloud effects.

A half-dragon mimic could pose as a bit of floor and glue somebody in place to keep them out of the fight or even to drown them in lava or something.

The dragon's lair having sulfurous fumes that are poisonous to creatures not immune to fire could enable him to trap characters in pits and such, or even which just force suffocation rules, could be annoying to terrifying.

[Feldar]

Action deficit is the greatest killer of Big Bad Single Monsters vs. any party.

The only times I've seen a single opponent come close to taking on an entire party (oversized at that), the single opponent was a druid.

[Xervous]

The only times I've seen a single opponent come close to taking on an entire party (oversized at that), the single opponent was a druid.

Sounds like a hentai episode, had one of those in a campaign with a darktentacles.

[Biggus]

As for the dragon itself, it has 40 HD, which means seven normal feats plus seven epic feats. It has Sorcerer 19 spellcasting, and can also learn Cleric spells and anything from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains.

Dragons have to reach at least Old age before they can take epic feats (Draconomicon p.66), so it has 10 normal feats and 4 epic feats.



Feats should be Practiced Spellcaster, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Flyby Attack, and Hover pre-epic, and Fast Healing, Automatic Quicken x3, and Multispell x3 for the epic feats.

Rapid Metamagic is better than Automatic Quicken; the 3.5 version of AQ (Complete Arcane p.191) only quickens one spell level each time you take it.

Others to consider include Multiattack (if you're intending it to get into melee at any point), Blind-Fight (reduces the miss chance from Blindsense to 25%), Maximise Breath (their d10 damage dice means a nearly 82% damage increase), Improved Flight (Hover isn't necessary if you can improve your flight to Good by other means; see below), Improved/Superior Initiative (but see below) and the epic feat Improved Metamagic (requires 4 metamagic feats).



Spells Known:
0th (9): Whatever looks fun.
1st (5): Shield, Alarm, Protection from Good, Nerveskitter, Sign
2nd (5): Wings of Cover, Wraithstrike, Scintillating Scales, Ray of Stupidity, Heart of Air
3rd (4): Greater Mage Armor, Protection from Energy, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Heart of Water
4th (4): Blinding Breath, Wings of Flurry, Ray Deflection, Heart of Earth
5th (4): Dismissal, Teleport, Heart of Fire, True Seeing
6th (3): Contingency, Heal, Antimagic Field
7th (3): Ironguard, Limited Wish, Destruction
8th (3): Chain Dispel, Prismatic Wall, Superior Invisibility
9th (2): Time Stop, Miracle


I'd agree with most of these. Others to consider include:

1st: Blood Wind, Conviction, Shield of Faith, Divine Favor (can be persisted)
2nd: Heroics (can give you Improved Initiative for 7hrs 40mins per casting with Extend Spell and Practised Spellcaster)
4th: Greater Wings of Air (combined with Improved Flight gives it Good maneuverability), Ruin Delver's Fortune, Sheltered Vitality, Recitation (can be persisted)
5th: Breath Weapon Substitution (combined with maximise breath gives a nasty surprise to PCs who've made themselves immune to fire), Greater Anticipate Teleportation and/or Mage's Private Sanctum (to prevent them using scrying or Hide From Dragons to view it lair without it knowing, and then teleporting in to catch it unawares), Divine Agility
6th: Superior Resistance, Greater Dispel Magic
7th: Energy Immunity (cold), Blasphemy
8th: Greater Spell Immunity (for those pesky no-save effects like Maze)

Are you giving it magic items as well?

[Asmotherion]

So, being a Full Caster, More Buff than the Barbarian, Access to SLAs that are in addition to your Spells Known, Breathing Fire, and dealing more or less the Same DPS as the Fighter is not Great enough? Dragons in a nutshell are ferry dragons what ypi get if you triple gestalt a Sorcerer with a Druid and a Barbarian.

If you want a thematic Change, use Vampire Dragons and Dracoliches. Their Immunity to being killed by a Maximised lv3 spell really makes the Difference if you ask me though.

Or, as demonstrated by our Local Webcomic, OoTS, give a Dragon "Anti Magic Field" and it's pretty much on par as a threat with the Tarasque.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragons have to reach at least Old age before they can take epic feats (Draconomicon p.66), so it has 10 normal feats and 4 epic feats.

Wrong, "These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels." If it's 21+ HD, it can take epic feats. If it's an old age+ dragon below 21 HD, it can also take epic feats. That's not an additional restriction on dragons taking epic feats, it's an allowance.


Rapid Metamagic is better than Automatic Quicken; the 3.5 version of AQ (Complete Arcane p.191) only quickens one spell level each time you take it.

Others to consider include Multiattack (if you're intending it to get into melee at any point), Blind-Fight (reduces the miss chance from Blindsense to 25%), Maximise Breath (their d10 damage dice means a nearly 82% damage increase), Improved Flight (Hover isn't necessary if you can improve your flight to Good by other means; see below), Improved/Superior Initiative (but see below) and the epic feat Improved Metamagic (requires 4 metamagic feats).

I hadn't realized they nerfed Automatic Quicken so hard in CA, that sort of ruins a lot of the spell selections, but luckily Arcane Spellsurge can redeem it.

I would avoid metabreath feats, it should try to use Blinding Breath as often as possible. Even if they're immune to the damage, it's a Reflex save vs being permanently blinded.


I'd agree with most of these. Others to consider include:

1st: Blood Wind, Conviction, Shield of Faith, Divine Favor (can be persisted)
2nd: Heroics (can give you Improved Initiative for 7hrs 40mins per casting with Extend Spell and Practised Spellcaster)
4th: Greater Wings of Air (combined with Improved Flight gives it Good maneuverability), Ruin Delver's Fortune, Sheltered Vitality, Recitation (can be persisted)
5th: Breath Weapon Substitution (combined with maximise breath gives a nasty surprise to PCs who've made themselves immune to fire), Greater Anticipate Teleportation and/or Mage's Private Sanctum (to prevent them using scrying or Hide From Dragons to view it lair without it knowing, and then teleporting in to catch it unawares), Divine Agility
6th: Superior Resistance, Greater Dispel Magic
7th: Energy Immunity (cold), Blasphemy
8th: Greater Spell Immunity (for those pesky no-save effects like Maze)

Are you giving it magic items as well?

Energy Immunity can be taken as a 6th level spell from the Cleric list. I deliberately left out Blasphemy and similar to make it at least somewhat of a fair fight, considering Practiced Spellcaster makes it a no-save paralyzed for 10-100 rounds.

[Biggus]

Wrong, "These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels." If it's 21+ HD, it can take epic feats. If it's an old age+ dragon below 21 HD, it can also take epic feats. That's not an additional restriction on dragons taking epic feats, it's an allowance.

As far as I know, it doesn't say anywhere that you can take epic feats when you reach 21HD, the specification is character level 21. It's not made clear at what point monster HD allows you to take them.

Also, there aren't any true dragons which have less than 21HD at old age, so if it's allowing something, it must be that dragons of less than CR21 can take epic feats, not 21HD (CR21 makes much more sense in balance terms; there are creatures far below CR21 which have 21+HD).



Energy Immunity can be taken as a 6th level spell from the Cleric list. I deliberately left out Blasphemy and similar to make it at least somewhat of a fair fight, considering Practiced Spellcaster makes it a no-save paralyzed for 10-100 rounds.

Good catch about Energy Immunity. And yeah, I wasn't sure whether to mention Blasphemy, it'd be a pretty mean trick against a 15th-level party. I got the impression the party is pretty high-OP though, otherwise why would a CR26 monster need buffing to fight them?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I mentioned that having mid-level kobold initiators with White Raven is a great way to improve the dragon's action economy. After all, having weaker minions that grant a stronger main opponent extra actions (and a few casters who can deny them to the party via debuffs and BFC that don't affect themselves or the dragon) is a great way to even the odds.

[Anthrowhale]

In addition to, I'd maybe agree with, but you're not always gonna reasonably have arcane spellsurge up, and even when you DO, it's at risk of being dispelled. Plus, arcane spellsurge has a round of set up time which sometimes you can't afford.

W.r.t. warmup: you can cast Arcane Spellsurge as a standard action and then any standard action spell as a swift action in the first round. That seems ok? The same is available if dispelled.

In this particular case, perhaps the epic feats could be Improved Metamagic several times, enabling Persistent Arcane Spellsurge.

[RNightstalker]

Increasing the difficulty of a CR 26 monster while keeping it viable for a level 15 party seems tricky. Perhaps some discussion of the party's optimization level is important here.

Haven't even started the campaign yet. I'm just BORED with being out of work for so long, trying to find something to occupy the time until these companies that label their postings "urgently hiring" and I might get a response in a month...:smallfurious:



The kobolds should be smart enough to maim the party and deplete their resources without fully commiting themselves to battle. When the chips are down, single monster vs the party is a losing recipe. On the other hand, with those kobolds helping the dragon wins the action count. 50 or so regular kobolds aren't going to affect the CR of that fight at all, but they can all target the same character with their attacks in a pre-determined order. Give it enough shots and they will get some hits. Toss in some kobold sorcerors to counterspell the mage and cleric.

Don't have the dragon do anything stupid, like get into melee, until the odds are heavily in its favor. Use superior mobility, hit and run tactics, and intimate knowledge of the lair to fight on the dragon's terms. Have the dragon's magical support take out anyone who tries to ruin the dragon's mobility or counter it with their own.

The whole module is chocked full of nuggets for the kobolds to be a major thorn in the side of the PC's.
As far as hit and run, can a dragon use a breath weapon as part of a flyby attack?


The rapid metamagic feat from complete mage removes this drawback completely, only requires 12 ranks in spellcraft, so easily qualify.

Good pull. That's definitely going on the list.



The quest is to slay the dragon, doing the sword work is easy enough, it’s getting to the part where you can sword it to death that’s hard.

I'm also looking into lair wards, especially the one that suppresses the fly spell, which should suppress magic items based on that spell as well IIRC.



Adding kobolds as minions is an interesting idea. Make them fire-immune either by special template (literally, just gives them fire immunity) or by magic items, and then give them environmental traps to control to up their action efficacy.

Dragons can retake some of this ground by making fights happen on their terms. Breathe from far enough away that only one or two characters can hit them; use flyby to force people to ready actions rather than take full turns. Having a big space to fly around in with pools and pits of lava is both thematic and useful for shoving PCs around. That chain dispel and the kobolds stealing their magic items will soften them up and make their ability to ignore fire damage far less than they perhaps had planned.


It could almost be called Kobold Mountain because the mountain is infested with them, waaaay before they get to the dragon's lair. And the lair is pretty spacious as well which I might need to expand a little just for the size of the dragon.


Dragons have to reach at least Old age before they can take epic feats (Draconomicon p.66), so it has 10 normal feats and 4 epic feats.

Rapid Metamagic is better than Automatic Quicken; the 3.5 version of AQ (Complete Arcane p.191) only quickens one spell level each time you take it.

Others to consider include Multiattack (if you're intending it to get into melee at any point), Blind-Fight (reduces the miss chance from Blindsense to 25%), Maximise Breath (their d10 damage dice means a nearly 82% damage increase), Improved Flight (Hover isn't necessary if you can improve your flight to Good by other means; see below), Improved/Superior Initiative (but see below) and the epic feat Improved Metamagic (requires 4 metamagic feats).

Are you giving it magic items as well?

I'm going to try to avoid epic feats on this one. I'm definitely liking multiattack. What about the improved versions of it?
Conviction, Divine Favor, Heroics, Greater Wings of Air, Divine Agility, Energy Immunity and Greater Spell Immunity are good pulls.
Blasphemy could be a good last resort.

Yes the dragon has a hoard to pull from.



Good catch about Energy Immunity. And yeah, I wasn't sure whether to mention Blasphemy, it'd be a pretty mean trick against a 15th-level party. I got the impression the party is pretty high-OP though, otherwise why would a CR26 monster need buffing to fight them?

Party doesn't exist yet. I'm sure I can tailor things seeing how they progress through the dungeon.



In this particular case, perhaps the epic feats could be Improved Metamagic several times, enabling Persistent Arcane Spellsurge.

I'm banning Persistent Spell for the players for the time being, so I'm not going to use it against them.

[Elkad]

In 2e I went full Tucker and killed 6 of 7 PCs in the opening kobold encounter...

[RNightstalker]

In 2e I went full Tucker and killed 6 of 7 PCs in the opening kobold encounter...

My intended style of DMing would have that happen only if the PCs were extremely stupid. I want there to definitely be a threat of a character dying but I don't want it to be a daily occurrence, although that could be hard when the kobolds are using save or die poison.

[Biggus]

I'm going to try to avoid epic feats on this one. I'm definitely liking multiattack. What about the improved versions of it?
Conviction, Divine Favor, Heroics, Greater Wings of Air, Divine Agility, Energy Immunity and Greater Spell Immunity are good pulls.
Blasphemy could be a good last resort.

Yes the dragon has a hoard to pull from.


Improved Multiattack is OK, it gives a smaller bonus than Multiattack but if you're planning to make it a melee monster it's worth it. If you're going that route, (Improved) Rapidstrike and Improved Natural Attack are worth considering too.

Some magic items that might be worth considering: Metamagic Extend Rods (cheap way to save higher-level spell slots), Ring of Evasion, Ring of Protection, Claws of the Ripper (if you're going Improved Natural Attack: Claws and Improved Rapidstrike: Claw they're a cheap way to make that claw even more deadly), Memento Majica (if they need more spell slots), Belt of Battle, Third Eye Clarity, Circlet of Rapid Casting, Ring of Arcane Might, Ring of Anticipation, and items to boost Str, Dex, Con and Cha are all useful.

Are you using the DMG or ELH rules for treasure above CR20?

Oh and another spell you might want to consider: Girallon's Blessing. Two extra claw attacks plus rend, long enough duration you can potentially keep it up all day.

[RNightstalker]

Some magic items that might be worth considering: Metamagic Extend Rods (cheap way to save higher-level spell slots), Ring of Evasion, Ring of Protection, Claws of the Ripper (if you're going Improved Natural Attack: Claws and Improved Rapidstrike: Claw they're a cheap way to make that claw even more deadly), Memento Majica (if they need more spell slots), Belt of Battle, Third Eye Clarity, Circlet of Rapid Casting, Ring of Arcane Might, Ring of Anticipation, and items to boost Str, Dex, Con and Cha are all useful.

Are you using the DMG or ELH rules for treasure above CR20?

Oh and another spell you might want to consider: Girallon's Blessing. Two extra claw attacks plus rend, long enough duration you can potentially keep it up all day.

Some good ideas on the items, though I won't need the RoP due to Scintillating Scales. Belt of Battle might be a bit much, and I'm looking into adjusting a slot for a dex item.

The hoard is already set, though I might alter it some.

Girallon's blessing could be as much overkill as belt of battle, since the dragon would get 5 extra sets of arms...

[Thurbane]

If it's 21+ HD, it can take epic feats.

Correct.

Can't find the precise citation right now, but for creatures with no class level, character level = HD. Otherwise none of the Monsters in the Epic Level Handbook would qualify for the epic feats in their stat blocks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about a shrink collar, from the A&EG? Reverts the dragon to Small size (but keeps its stats, so it's just as strong) so it can watch the party as they're going through the Tuckereque kobold gauntlet, making notes of what's happening and how they deal with things. Obviously, it regularly interacts with the kobolds itself, rather than letting them do whatever they want, but it teaches them and brings out their vicious cunning, ingenuity, and intelligence. And it makes mental notes on the party so it can set up its ambush at the most opportune time, with several places throughout the mountain it could ambush them at. And when it comes time to do so, it deactivates the collar, leaving a massive monster where the party thought there was a little pipsqueak of a wyrmling.

...and then it activates its contingent fully augmented expansion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm), psionic iron body (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ironBodyPsionic.htm), fission (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fission.htm), body outside body, and lots of other contingent powers and spells.

Yes, it's got Leadership, and its highest level follower is a CStP erudite psion kobold with Craft Contingent Spell, why do you ask?

[Biggus]

The hoard is already set, though I might alter it some.


The reason I was asking about the value of its hoard is that there are some other useful items I could suggest, but they're very expensive, and the DMG rules would give it a lot more treasure value to play with than the ELH ones.



Girallon's blessing could be as much overkill as belt of battle, since the dragon would get 5 extra sets of arms...

Would it? How do you work that out?



Scintillating Scales is now on the spell list. Thanks! Any other ideas on raising touch AC, Dex and Initiative?

Just noticed you asked this earlier in the thread. The spells Elation, Greater Visage of the Deity and Combat Readiness all increase some or all of those things, and stack with the others already mentioned.


Correct.

Can't find the precise citation right now, but for creatures with no class level, character level = HD. Otherwise none of the Monsters in the Epic Level Handbook would qualify for the epic feats in their stat blocks.

I'd be very interested to see that citation. I did a search on this earlier, and all the threads I could find agreed with what I'd always understood, that it's never actually specified anywhere at what point creatures without class levels can take epic feats, except for the rule in the Draconomicon about dragons being able to take them at Old age.

[One Step Two]

Can't find the precise citation right now, but for creatures with no class level, character level = HD. Otherwise none of the Monsters in the Epic Level Handbook would qualify for the epic feats in their stat blocks.


I'd be very interested to see that citation. I did a search on this earlier, and all the threads I could find agreed with what I'd always understood, that it's never actually specified anywhere at what point creatures without class levels can take epic feats, except for the rule in the Draconomicon about dragons being able to take them at Old age.

Epic Level Handbook Pg. 25, Monsters as Epic Characters sidebar:

"In any other place in this book where "character level" is indicated, you can use the effective character level instead. For example, a creature with a level adjustment of +5, who is also a 13th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 21 and capable to select an epic feat provided he meets the prerequisites"

[Biggus]

Epic Level Handbook Pg. 25, Monsters as Epic Characters sidebar:

"In any other place in this book where "character level" is indicated, you can use the effective character level instead. For example, a creature with a level adjustment of +5, who is also a 13th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 21 and capable to select an epic feat provided he meets the prerequisites"

Effective character level isn't the same thing as hit dice.

EDIT: it appears I am wrong, it just occurred to me to look at the feats given to epic monsters, and some of them do indeed start taking them at 21HD, well before they'd be CR21. Stat blocks aren't RAW, but in the absense of anything more official, I have to presume that's the intent. I guess I'll start giving CR9 Greater Elementals an epic feat from now on then :smallconfused:

[Elkad]

My intended style of DMing would have that happen only if the PCs were extremely stupid. I want there to definitely be a threat of a character dying but I don't want it to be a daily occurrence, although that could be hard when the kobolds are using save or die poison.


To quote the module "After all, it's only a bunch of kobolds. How tough can they be?"
They were high level, and just waltzed in carelessly. Holding back for the "real fight".

800 kobolds, with poison and wands and actual tactics IS the real fight.

I would have likely fudged to save the last character. They rezzed up, and played smarter after that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The dragon should have a self-resetting magical trap that allows him to rezz his kobold minions at will, that way all that experience they got (and its effort in teaching them) isn't wasted when adventurers come waltzing in. Assuming the PCs manage to make it all the way through and clear out (at least most of) the kobolds and the dragon at the end, they could find a large platform where the kobolds are rezzed if/when they die. It should probably be in a hidden section of the complex where the kobolds live, so it's hard to find.

If the PCs kill the dragon, and if they don't find and destroy the trap, the kobolds have castoff scales from the dragon and can use the trap to rezz him after. And then he'll be absolutely livid when he comes back, not just because they killed him and his, but because THEY STOLE HIS HOARD!

Then he can go after them with a personal grudge.

Also, he might have formed a personal attachment to the kobolds, as well. It's not like he has to be mindlessly evil, after all.

[RNightstalker]

The reason I was asking about the value of its hoard is that there are some other useful items I could suggest, but they're very expensive, and the DMG rules would give it a lot more treasure value to play with than the ELH ones.

Would it? How do you work that out?

Just noticed you asked this earlier in the thread. The spells Elation, Greater Visage of the Deity and Combat Readiness all increase some or all of those things, and stack with the others already mentioned.


Just for shiggles, what items were you thinking of?
Girallon's blessing would give five extra sets of arms, so 10 extra claw attacks in full attack.
Greater visage won't work as the buffs are different for evil casters, but the other two will definitely work.


To quote the module "After all, it's only a bunch of kobolds. How tough can they be?"
They were high level, and just waltzed in carelessly. Holding back for the "real fight".

800 kobolds, with poison and wands and actual tactics IS the real fight.

I would have likely fudged to save the last character. They rezzed up, and played smarter after that.

I'm considering leveling up some of the named kobolds, as they didn't really do that in earlier editions that I can recall.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's honestly going to be killed by action economy more than anything. Without epic feats, I'd go with:

Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Practical Metamagic: Persistent Spell, Spell Focus: Abjuration, Metamagic School Focus: Abjuration, Multiattack, Rapidstrike: Claws, Improved Rapidstrike: Claws, Rapidstrike: Wings, Improved Raidstrike: Wings, Improved Flight, Power Attack, Flyby Attack, and Recover Breath.

Be sure to include Arcane Spellsurge in its spells known, and it should cast that first before anything else. It can immediately cast another spell in the same turn that normally has a standard action casting time, I'd go with Prismatic Wall to block the opponents from reaching it. Consider using Moment of Prescience for initiative. Keep Destruction in its spells known.

Maybe use Iceberg instead of Prismatic Wall, they wouldn't be expecting it and it can follow up by full attacking anyone who didn't get automatically buried in snow. Otherwise just using a blinding breath attack to melt away the snow and hit them all, which they'd have a penalty to the save in the neighborhood of -4 considering the circumstances. That would also turn the area they're in into deep scalding mud, and it can use Transmute Mud to Rock to try to trap them and then either use a crush attack or full attack someone.

[Biggus]

Just for shiggles, what items were you thinking of?

Third Eye Conceal (continuous Mind Blank, 120,000GP) and Hathran Mask of True Seeing (75,000GP, continuous True Seeing) come to mind.


Girallon's blessing would give five extra sets of arms, so 10 extra claw attacks in full attack.

Why does it give them five extra sets of arms?


Greater visage won't work as the buffs are different for evil casters, but the other two will definitely work.


It true that the buffs are different, but evil characters actually get a higher Dex bonus from it than good ones.

[Thurbane]

Effective character level isn't the same thing as hit dice.

Now THAT I can give you a citation for:


effective character level

This number represents a creature's overall power relative to that of a character from the Player's Handbook. A creature with an effective character level (ECL) of 10 is roughly equivalent to a 10th-level character. A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment. For instance, a splinterwaif has 2 HD and a +4 level adjustment. It is the equivalent of a 6th-level character.
Source: MM, MM3

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_effectivecharacterlevel&alpha=E

[Biggus]

Now THAT I can give you a citation for:



http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_effectivecharacterlevel&alpha=E

What I meant was, ECL is still a character level, not just hit dice. I meant that having a certain number of hit dice on its own doesn't necessarily qualify you for things that a particular number of character levels do (as far as I've ever seen, if you manage to find the other citation I'd still be very interested to see it).

For the purposes of this thread it's a moot point though, as I said a few posts ago it appears monsters can take epic feats at 21HD regardless of their CR. Seems insane to me, but it appears that's how it is.

[Crake]

What I meant was, ECL is still a character level, not just hit dice. I meant that having a certain number of hit dice on its own doesn't necessarily qualify you for things that a particular number of character levels do (as far as I've ever seen, if you manage to find the other citation I'd still be very interested to see it).

For the purposes of this thread it's a moot point though, as I said a few posts ago it appears monsters can take epic feats at 21HD regardless of their CR. Seems insane to me, but it appears that's how it is.

Considering that racial HD are included in the ECL calculation, and the fact that racial HD are generally considered as "monster class levels", it's safe to say that racial hd = character level, and if you have over 21 racial HD, you are treated as epic.

Dragons also have a specific addition to this note, in that dragons above a certain age category (I think old?) count as epic for qualifying for feats and whatnot, as noted in the draconomicon at the start of chapter two.

[Biggus]

Dragons also have a specific addition to this note, in that dragons above a certain age category (I think old?) count as epic for qualifying for feats and whatnot, as noted in the draconomicon at the start of chapter two.

Yes, that's one of the weird things though, all dragons are already over 21HD by the time they reach old age, so if that already qualifies them for epic feats why include that note? Why not just say they can take them when they reach 21HD?

[JoeNapalm]

Above all, a Great Wyrm is a survivor.

They wouldn't fight fair, they would always have a plan, they will always have an exit.

In my games, there tend to be dragons and Dragons.

A dragon is a serious threat, if played well by the GM.

A Dragon is a fully-realized, equipped, and planned out NPC Supervillain. It requires the party to fight like they've never fought before just to avoid a TPK...but they're generally going to have to seek it out (or really piss it off in some way) before it's going to fight toe-to-toe.

And let's face it, most GMs hold the Dragons back a bit -- you want it to be tougher, don't pull any punches. But be aware you're likely to kill some heroes.


-Jn-

[RNightstalker]

Above all, a Great Wyrm is a survivor.

They wouldn't fight fair, they would always have a plan, they will always have an exit.

In my games, there tend to be dragons and Dragons.

A dragon is a serious threat, if played well by the GM.

A Dragon is a fully-realized, equipped, and planned out NPC Supervillain. It requires the party to fight like they've never fought before just to avoid a TPK...but they're generally going to have to seek it out (or really piss it off in some way) before it's going to fight toe-to-toe.

And let's face it, most GMs hold the Dragons back a bit -- you want it to be tougher, don't pull any punches. But be aware you're likely to kill some heroes.


-Jn-

I'm ok with a few heroes dying. I'm aiming for a great encounter, one that isn't over in a couple rounds.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's honestly going to be killed by action economy more than anything.Well, I mean, I did already give a good solution for this, and it'd take a minimum of resources on the dragon's part. Depending on what tactics the dragon wants to use and what maneuvers the kobolds have, they might not even raise the actual encounter CR at all.

[Thurbane]

What I meant was, ECL is still a character level, not just hit dice. I meant that having a certain number of hit dice on its own doesn't necessarily qualify you for things that a particular number of character levels do (as far as I've ever seen, if you manage to find the other citation I'd still be very interested to see it).

For the purposes of this thread it's a moot point though, as I said a few posts ago it appears monsters can take epic feats at 21HD regardless of their CR. Seems insane to me, but it appears that's how it is.


Epic Level Handbook Pg. 25, Monsters as Epic Characters sidebar:

"In any other place in this book where "character level" is indicated, you can use the effective character level instead. For example, a creature with a level adjustment of +5, who is also a 13th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 21 and capable to select an epic feat provided he meets the prerequisites"

If you combine the above from ELH with the glossary definition of ECL, it seems pretty iron clad creatures with 21 or more HD can take epic feats.

As an aside, just curious: would you allow a creatures with 5HD, and no class levels, to take the Least Legacy feat, since one of the prereqs is "Character Level 5th"? Would a creature with 6HD and no class levels be allowed to take the Leadership feat?


Yes, that's one of the weird things though, all dragons are already over 21HD by the time they reach old age, so if that already qualifies them for epic feats why include that note? Why not just say they can take them when they reach 21HD?

It certainly wouldn't be the first case in 3.5 where there is redundancy in the rules. Also, for all we know, the authors were writing that in case of any future dragons printed that weren't automatically over 21HD by old age.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by RNightstalker
Girallon's blessing would give five extra sets of arms, so 10 extra claw attacks in full attack.


Originally Posted by Biggus
Why does it give them five extra sets of arms?

There are two versions of the spell. The 3.0 version from Savage Species grants one pair of arms for every four caster levels. The updated version in Spell Compendium does away with this, and only grants one additional pair of arms per casting of the spell.

[Biggus]

If you combine the above from ELH with the glossary definition of ECL, it seems pretty iron clad creatures with 21 or more HD can take epic feats.

But ECL only applies to PCs, NPC creatures don't have an ECL, they have a CR instead.


As an aside, just curious: would you allow a creatures with 5HD, and no class levels, to take the Least Legacy feat, since one of the prereqs is "Character Level 5th"? Would a creature with 6HD and no class levels be allowed to take the Leadership feat?

I wouldn't have before this discussion, because there are plenty of places where the books specify you need a certain number of "character levels or HD", so if they specified character levels only, I'd assume that's what they meant. Now I'm not sure what they mean.



It certainly wouldn't be the first case in 3.5 where there is redundancy in the rules. Also, for all we know, the authors were writing that in case of any future dragons printed that weren't automatically over 21HD by old age.

Well, I can't say that's impossible, but it seems pretty odd if so, more likely to confuse than clarify.


There are two versions of the spell. The 3.0 version from Savage Species grants one pair of arms for every four caster levels. The updated version in Spell Compendium does away with this, and only grants one additional pair of arms per casting of the spell.

Thank you, that makes sense now.

[Particle_Man]

No so much for power as for theme, but if you are not being too deceptive about the redness of the red dragon, then making some or all of the kobolds half-red dragons, would be thematic.

Also, aren't red dragons allied with Githyanki? Maybe throw one or more of those in there as a cohort or ally or visiting dignitary or something?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No so much for power as for theme, but if you are not being too deceptive about the redness of the red dragon, then making some or all of the kobolds half-red dragons, would be thematic.

Also, aren't red dragons allied with Githyanki? Maybe throw one or more of those in there as a cohort or ally or visiting dignitary or something?Githyanki Dignitary: "Why won't you let us enslave you? I can ride you right now."

Red: "PHRASING! I already have kobolds for that. Also, no. 100% no. Go away."

[Thurbane]

But ECL only applies to PCs, NPC creatures don't have an ECL, they have a CR instead.

I would beg to differ, based on the glossary entry I quoted:


effective character level

This number represents a creature's overall power relative to that of a character from the Player's Handbook. A creature with an effective character level (ECL) of 10 is roughly equivalent to a 10th-level character. A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment. For instance, a splinterwaif has 2 HD and a +4 level adjustment. It is the equivalent of a 6th-level character.
Source: MM, MM3

Note the references to "creature" (not NPC or PC). The specific example of the Splinterwaif doesn't have any class levels, and isn't called out as a PC/NPC, yet is still assigned an ECL.

It seems we have differing readings of the rules, which I admit could be much more clearly written. I won't labour the point any further.

[Crake]

It certainly wouldn't be the first case in 3.5 where there is redundancy in the rules. Also, for all we know, the authors were writing that in case of any future dragons printed that weren't automatically over 21HD by old age.

I mean, that's literally impossible, since old is the 8th age category, and a dragon gains 3HD per age category, so even if a dragon had 1HD as a wyrmling, it would have 22HD as an old dragon. It may well be that the authors of the draconomicon thought that you needed 21 class levels specifically to be treated as epic, since the section does speak about epic feats being available to characters that are level 21 and above.

[Thurbane]

I mean, that's literally impossible, since old is the 8th age category, and a dragon gains 3HD per age category, so even if a dragon had 1HD as a wyrmling, it would have 22HD as an old dragon. It may well be that the authors of the draconomicon thought that you needed 21 class levels specifically to be treated as epic, since the section does speak about epic feats being available to characters that are level 21 and above.

Oh, I was unaware of that general rule regarding HD per/age category.

In that case, I'd just chalk it up to sloppy writing/redundancy. As I said, it certainly wouldn't be the first such case in the rules...

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Biggus
Thank you, that makes sense now.

It threw me too, because I didn’t realize there was a 3.0 version of the spell. Not sure if the OP is defaulting to 3.0 (since he mentioned 3.0 DR) or if this was an oversight.

Five extra pairs of limbs on a dragon could certainly be some nightmare fuel, though.

[RNightstalker]

There are two versions of the spell. The 3.0 version from Savage Species grants one pair of arms for every four caster levels. The updated version in Spell Compendium does away with this, and only grants one additional pair of arms per casting of the spell.

Thanks for the heads up.


No so much for power as for theme, but if you are not being too deceptive about the redness of the red dragon, then making some or all of the kobolds half-red dragons, would be thematic.

Also, aren't red dragons allied with Githyanki? Maybe throw one or more of those in there as a cohort or ally or visiting dignitary or something?

I'll look into it, maybe insert a few as lieutenants that delegate the different clans.

@Palanan, I'm not doing a complete revert to 3.0, just trying to keep the best aspects of it that the 3.5 "update" fixed what wasn't broken. I think rangers got the shaft in the update, the tempest went from being ok to terrible, and improved critical should stack with keen because they're different sources of improvement. That's why I've started referring to it as 3.x.

It's a shame wizards won't touch 3rd in any form anymore. With the help of the playground here, we could help them sort out a ton of issues and contradictions and take 3.whatever to another level. Heck maybe that's worth a new thread, petitioning wizards to clean up the mess.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by RNightstalker
Heck maybe that's worth a new thread, petitioning wizards to clean up the mess.

A noble thought, but WotC is a long way past spending any more resources on 3.X. There have been attempts to ask them to take action on a far smaller scale, and those attempts have fallen into silence and darkness.

They heed us not, nor do they care.

[Segev]

A noble thought, but WotC is a long way past spending any more resources on 3.X. There have been attempts to ask them to take action on a far smaller scale, and those attempts have fallen into silence and darkness.

They heed us not, nor do they care.

The OGL for 3.5 is still out there. There's nothing stopping an intrepid bunch of fans from making their own third-party rules supplement with essays explaining the flaws they see in the RAW and their new rules to fix them.

[RNightstalker]

A noble thought, but WotC is a long way past spending any more resources on 3.X. There have been attempts to ask them to take action on a far smaller scale, and those attempts have fallen into silence and darkness.

They heed us not, nor do they care.


The OGL for 3.5 is still out there. There's nothing stopping an intrepid bunch of fans from making their own third-party rules supplement with essays explaining the flaws they see in the RAW and their new rules to fix them.

That just means making progressively more noise will get their attention, and they'll eventually deal with us to get rid of us:tongue:

[Tzardok]

That just means making progressively more noise will get their attention, and they'll eventually deal with us to get rid of us:tongue:

If the Wizard of the Coast sends his pet assassins to end the Giant in the Playground, it will not only be an epic fantasy story, it will also be your fault. :smalltongue:

[Crake]

A noble thought, but WotC is a long way past spending any more resources on 3.X. There have been attempts to ask them to take action on a far smaller scale, and those attempts have fallen into silence and darkness.

They heed us not, nor do they care.

Interestingly enough, there has been a minor resurgence in developers bringing back support and development resources for older versions of the game, at least in the video game space. Age of Empires 2, Guild Wars 1, WoW Classic are the primary examples that come to mind, all incredibly old games that have, in recent years, recieved either minor support and balance changes, to full blown reiterations and recreations. It's not entirely out of the picture that wizards might dedicate a hint of resources to 3.x, especially since they did do that 3.x reprint for the core rulebooks, the MiC and the spell compendium around the launch of 5e.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Segev
The OGL for 3.5 is still out there. There's nothing stopping an intrepid bunch of fans from making their own third-party rules supplement with essays explaining the flaws they see in the RAW and their new rules to fix them.

Of course, and that would be great. But that would be done by fans, not Wizards.

Also, there’s already Pathfinder, which does exactly this.


Originally Posted by RNightstalker
That just means making progressively more noise will get their attention, and they'll eventually deal with us to get rid of us….

The only noise they care about is cha-ching, and they won’t be devoting resources to touching up a version of the game that’s two editions out of date.


Originally Posted by Crake
It's not entirely out of the picture that wizards might dedicate a hint of resources to 3.x, especially since they did do that 3.x reprint for the core rulebooks, the MiC and the spell compendium around the launch of 5e.

Those were reprints, not the sort of detailed rewriting the OP is talking about. And some of those reprints didn’t include errata and carried over many of the mistakes from the originals, as discussed here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?294890-FYI-premium-MIC-does-NOT-include-errata), so clearly there wasn’t much effort invested in them.

Wizards is almost certainly focused on expanding content for 5E and working out a strategy for 6E. Any staff time spent on tinkering with twenty-year-old rules is time not spent on current and future editions, which is what their business model is built around.

Sure, they might bring out another round of reprints, but as with prior reprints they’ll likely just be reworked covers with few to no changes to the actual text. Certainly not the extensive retooling that OP is thinking of.

[Segev]

Of course, and that would be great. But that would be done by fans, not Wizards.

Also, there’s already Pathfinder, which does exactly this.If PF already does it, why do we need WotC to do it?

If fans make something that solves the problems, you can play with that material as easily as you can with material that WotC puts out.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Segev
If PF already does it, why do we need WotC to do it?

If fans make something that solves the problems, you can play with that material as easily as you can with material that WotC puts out.

Agreed.

OP seems to be proposing a different approach, a reworked blend of 3.0 and 3.5. I'll let him explain further what he's interested in.

[RNightstalker]

If the Wizard of the Coast sends his pet assassins to end the Giant in the Playground, it will not only be an epic fantasy story, it will also be your fault. :smalltongue:

Oh please I've already been blamed enough in the last two days, can a gamer get a break?! lol


Interestingly enough, there has been a minor resurgence in developers bringing back support and development resources for older versions of the game, at least in the video game space. Age of Empires 2, Guild Wars 1, WoW Classic are the primary examples that come to mind, all incredibly old games that have, in recent years, recieved either minor support and balance changes, to full blown reiterations and recreations. It's not entirely out of the picture that wizards might dedicate a hint of resources to 3.x, especially since they did do that 3.x reprint for the core rulebooks, the MiC and the spell compendium around the launch of 5e.

Even Nintendo did the classic console with 30 games.


Of course, and that would be great. But that would be done by fans, not Wizards.
Also, there’s already Pathfinder, which does exactly this.

The only noise they care about is cha-ching, and they won’t be devoting resources to touching up a version of the game that’s two editions out of date.

Those were reprints, not the sort of detailed rewriting the OP is talking about. And some of those reprints didn’t include errata and carried over many of the mistakes from the originals, as discussed here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?294890-FYI-premium-MIC-does-NOT-include-errata), so clearly there wasn’t much effort invested in them.

Wizards is almost certainly focused on expanding content for 5E and working out a strategy for 6E. Any staff time spent on tinkering with twenty-year-old rules is time not spent on current and future editions, which is what their business model is built around.

Sure, they might bring out another round of reprints, but as with prior reprints they’ll likely just be reworked covers with few to no changes to the actual text. Certainly not the extensive retooling that OP is thinking of.

On your first point, that's where we come in. There are plenty of things that we're obviously still playing with in much greater depth and detail that the playtesters probably never dreamed of.
As far as money goes, a limited print and pdf downloads can bring in some $$...Nintendo re-released games that were 30 years old with the rise of speedrunning, so there's precedent. Original Mario Bros. is now less than 5 minutes and original Legend of Zelda is below 28 minutes.
While Wizards is focusing on 6e and still boosting 5e, I'm sure there are 3.x developers that aren't with Wizards anymore that are players and fans themselves that can minimize their expense.


If PF already does it, why do we need WotC to do it?
If fans make something that solves the problems, you can play with that material as easily as you can with material that WotC puts out.

I've got zero experience with PF so far, so I can't speak to that. I would ask ::disclaimer--read previous statement:: is Pathfinder 2e the equivalent of Pathfinder's version of 5e, or is it fixing Pathfinder 1e? Reminder I've got no experience with either Pathfinder, so please be gentle in your responses.


Agreed.
OP seems to be proposing a different approach, a reworked blend of 3.0 and 3.5. I'll let him explain further what he's interested in.

At bare minimum, a new Rules Compendium that covers the most common complaints/contradictions. If I get a real life ring of three wishes/luckblade/aladdin's lamp: a full-blown, 3.75//3.Ultimate edition.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by RNightstalker
I've got zero experience with PF so far, so I can't speak to that. I would ask ::disclaimer--read previous statement:: is Pathfinder 2e the equivalent of Pathfinder's version of 5e, or is it fixing Pathfinder 1e? Reminder I've got no experience with either Pathfinder, so please be gentle in your responses.

Pathfinder 2E is a very different beast, and doesn't really try to “fix” Pathfinder 1E. It’s an attempt at a complete overhaul, which ends up having more in common with 5E.


Originally Posted by RNightstalker
…I’m sure there are 3.x developers that aren't with Wizards anymore that are players and fans themselves that can minimize their expense.

Not quite sure what you mean here. Former 3.X developers have most likely moved on to other companies and/or editions, or dropped out entirely.

[Biggus]

I would beg to differ, based on the glossary entry I quoted:

Note the references to "creature" (not NPC or PC). The specific example of the Splinterwaif doesn't have any class levels, and isn't called out as a PC/NPC, yet is still assigned an ECL.

It seems we have differing readings of the rules, which I admit could be much more clearly written. I won't labour the point any further.

Looking at the level adjustment entry in the monster manual glossary (p.311) shows that it can apply to cohorts and familiars too, but it seems pretty clear to me that it only applies to creatures on the player's side of the screen, as it were.


I mean, that's literally impossible, since old is the 8th age category, and a dragon gains 3HD per age category, so even if a dragon had 1HD as a wyrmling, it would have 22HD as an old dragon. It may well be that the authors of the draconomicon thought that you needed 21 class levels specifically to be treated as epic, since the section does speak about epic feats being available to characters that are level 21 and above.

Oh yeah, good point. I just checked every dragon in 3E (at least, I think I found them all) and discovered that the lowest was 23HD at old age.


Oh, I was unaware of that general rule regarding HD per/age category.

In that case, I'd just chalk it up to sloppy writing/redundancy. As I said, it certainly wouldn't be the first such case in the rules...

I'm not sure if it's specified as a general rule, but all true dragons (except epic dragons, which seem to count as a separate sub-category for many purposes) do increase by 3HD per age category, and in the ELH it says that when advancing them past great wyrm they get 3HD per virtual age category (again, except epic dragons which increase 5HD).

My feeling is that it was never generally known or agreed among the devs at what point monsters become eligible for epic feats so they each made their own assumptions. Again, wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yes, that's one of the weird things though, all dragons are already over 21HD by the time they reach old age, so if that already qualifies them for epic feats why include that note? Why not just say they can take them when they reach 21HD?

As a reminder. The text is in the section that's advising DMs on how to build and run dragons. It was never intended to be a standalone rule. People on the internet like to draw the line between crunch and fluff wherever it's most convenient for themselves.

[InvisibleBison]

Looking at the level adjustment entry in the monster manual glossary (p.311) shows that it can apply to cohorts and familiars too, but it seems pretty clear to me that it only applies to creatures on the player's side of the screen, as it were.

So what happens if an NPC takes Leadership and tries to attract a cohort with a level adjustment?

[Morphic tide]

I mean, that's literally impossible, since old is the 8th age category, and a dragon gains 3HD per age category, so even if a dragon had 1HD as a wyrmling, it would have 22HD as an old dragon. It may well be that the authors of the draconomicon thought that you needed 21 class levels specifically to be treated as epic, since the section does speak about epic feats being available to characters that are level 21 and above.
This makes me want to make some kind of "runt" Dragon designed to be a viable racial class all the way to 20 with it being Old at 18 RHD to get an Epic Feat before 20. This would seem to take 2RHD at Wyrmling and altering the rule to be 2RHD per age category, then figuring out a functional "class" based on that. Probably canning the behavior of Illumians with Sword of the Arcane Order with an obvious looting of some Dragon Shaman functions


The OGL for 3.5 is still out there. There's nothing stopping an intrepid bunch of fans from making their own third-party rules supplement with essays explaining the flaws they see in the RAW and their new rules to fix them.
Frankly, my own thoughts have overwhelmingly focused on consolidation to pull all the piles of tacked-on mechanics into a coherent framework that purges the base rule dysfunctions and bloat. Finesse working like 5e where it's just tagging the weapon as Dex-based instead of Str, RHD being made more modular so that monster ECL bloat stops being so ridiculous, blending together related fluff like the various ghost mechanics all being rewritten to run on Incarnum while Undead stop being Con-less, basically just boiling the system down so it's clean, ludonarrative resonance abounds, and the Fighter Bonus Feat list eats every class remotely resembling the Paladin progression in the name of Initiating, Binding, and Meldshaping, including those unborn.

[Crake]

This makes me want to make some kind of "runt" Dragon designed to be a viable racial class all the way to 20 with it being Old at 18 RHD to get an Epic Feat before 20. This would seem to take 2RHD at Wyrmling and altering the rule to be 2RHD per age category, then figuring out a functional "class" based on that. Probably canning the behavior of Illumians with Sword of the Arcane Order with an obvious looting of some Dragon Shaman functions

The issue with this would be that, if you make it into a racial class, and you let the player advance in the standard way of "beat challenge, gain xp", then the dragon would reach "old" age while it's still not even a year old. That is actually the real reason why dragons aren't really viable as a racial class, becuase it takes them literally hundreds of years to advance in racial power and grow.

[DarkSoul]

But be aware you're likely to kill some heroes.The last time I ran Dragon Mountain in 2e there were 15 PCs going in, played by 10 players. Two PCs actually reached the dragon, and they were allowed to leave, alive and unmolested, but without any equipment.

Regarding Dragon Mountain, the dragon realizes the value of the kobold tribes that live in her mountain, and they like the arrangement too. There are ~1500 of them spread across eight(?) tribes, each claiming a portion of the dwarven city they all live in after the dragon cleared out the dwarves. Regarding the mention of Tucker's Kobolds... it's recommended to play them a lot like that, but with hundreds of them. Also, the reason no one's rounded up an army to storm the mountain and clear out the kobolds is because 1: they're storming a dwarven citadel inside a mountain with most of its defenses still intact, and 2: the entire mountain plane shifts every 30-ish days. The plane shift puts a time limit of sorts on the adventure because the PCs don't know where they'll be when they come out if they take too long, and if they're not inside when it goes, they don't know where to start looking for it.

Someone said something about shrinking down and masquerading as a kobold; she already does that. She's also gone a different direction and made her "personal champion". A fire giant polymorphed into a kobold, but retaining the giant's ability scores and rock throwing/catching abilities at least. This champion could easily become something other than a fire giant, especially if you just take a kobold and give it a bunch of initiator levels or something like that.

For the dragon herself, the hover feat will probably be required. It's been years since I looked at the map but if I remember right she's got room to fly in her lair, but only barely. She'll want ways to shut down flight from the PCs so they can't reach her while she's airborne. Also, if you haven't banned it already, make her immune to the Shivering Touch spell. It's too good as printed and is a go-to dragon killing spell. Considering she deals a ton of fire damage in a lair full of coins with a low melting point, some sort of breath weapon substitution will help (and annoy the party to no end).

Lingering/Clinging breath, strafing breath, recover breath weapon (rapid recovery maybe? the one that reduces the recharge time of the breath weapon)... all fun feats if you want to use her breath weapon. It really depends on if you want her to focus on a particular tactic or be generally effective.

[RNightstalker]

The last time I ran Dragon Mountain in 2e there were 15 PCs going in, played by 10 players. Two PCs actually reached the dragon, and they were allowed to leave, alive and unmolested, but without any equipment.
Also, if you haven't banned it already, make her immune to the Shivering Touch spell.
It really depends on if you want her to focus on a particular tactic or be generally effective.

15 go in, 2 come out?!? Ya gotta go into a little detail on that one.
Shivering Touch is just banned outright, way out of balance.
I'm going for a general thing, I don't want to specialize her too much.

[Segev]

The issue with this would be that, if you make it into a racial class, and you let the player advance in the standard way of "beat challenge, gain xp", then the dragon would reach "old" age while it's still not even a year old. That is actually the real reason why dragons aren't really viable as a racial class, becuase it takes them literally hundreds of years to advance in racial power and grow.

If you wanted to break the Dragon up into a "class," you'd probably have to separate out racial HD-granted features and pseudo-class learning. Sorcery being something they develop as they get older in a vaguely uniform way could just be a mapping of average progress made in the normal, non-adventurous life of an apex predator that spends a lot of time curled up on its hoard. So a dragon technically is advancing sorcerer levels that just get subsumed in their racial HD for simplicity's sake.

Played out that way, "sorcerer" is their favored class, and they can technically advance any class normally when adventuring. This is why I would normally recommend any PC dragon just start with an ECL based on his age category and type, and then advance in PC classes. Maybe - MAYBE - take RHD to get to the next age category, ONCE, and claim you were very close to the age cusp and had a growth spurt, or something, if you really want to.

[Crake]

Maybe - MAYBE - take RHD to get to the next age category, ONCE, and claim you were very close to the age cusp and had a growth spurt, or something, if you really want to.

There's actually rules in the draconomicon about starting midway through an age category, and at what ages exactly extra racial HD within an age category are gained. Page 141-144 if anyone's interested. That is to say, racial HD from advancing an age category don't actually all come in one burst, they're spread out throughout the age category, which is why the advancement section for dragons has, for example "Wyrmling 5-6HD; very young, 8-9HD... etc" because dragons can be partway through an age category and have more HD than the base, they don't just go up in sets of 3 HD at a time.

[Roninblack]

The quest is to slay the dragon, doing the sword work is easy enough, it’s getting to the part where you can sword it to death that’s hard.

Can I sig this

Edit: oh and improving dragons, a quick fix, that makes them much meaner, is just to give it 3.0 haste, the ability to cast a spell and full attack makes dragons much more memorable. Worked like a charm when I ran Bastion of broken souls

[RNightstalker]

Edit: oh and improving dragons, a quick fix, that makes them much meaner, is just to give it 3.0 haste, the ability to cast a spell and full attack makes dragons much more memorable. Worked like a charm when I ran Bastion of broken souls

I want the players to come back to the next session! lol

But I have made progress, and finalized the feat selection I believe. Let me know what y'all think, but it wasn't intended to be a truly optimized build, unless the dragon escapes and in that case I'll be back! Drum roll please:

Adroit Flyby Attack
Cleave
Craft Contingent Spell
Deceptive Spell
Final Strike
Flyby Attack
Great Flyby Attack
Hover
Multiattack
Power Attack
Rapid Metamagic
Recover Breath
Whirlwind Tail Sweep
Wingover

Of course now that I review the list, I should probably swap out Rapid Metamagic since I'm not really going to use it much.

[Segev]

There's actually rules in the draconomicon about starting midway through an age category, and at what ages exactly extra racial HD within an age category are gained. Page 141-144 if anyone's interested. That is to say, racial HD from advancing an age category don't actually all come in one burst, they're spread out throughout the age category, which is why the advancement section for dragons has, for example "Wyrmling 5-6HD; very young, 8-9HD... etc" because dragons can be partway through an age category and have more HD than the base, they don't just go up in sets of 3 HD at a time.
Sure, in that case, start an RHD away from ranking up and take the RHD when you want to advance. Take class levels otherwise.

[Particle_Man]

It's a shame wizards won't touch 3rd in any form anymore. With the help of the playground here, we could help them sort out a ton of issues and contradictions and take 3.whatever to another level. Heck maybe that's worth a new thread, petitioning wizards to clean up the mess.

I think the issue with getting fans to do the work for free is to get the fans to agree on what the "right" answer should be for various messes that should be cleaned up (and in some cases, on getting the fans to agree about whether a certain part of the game is, or is not, a mess in need of a clean up).

Heck there are numerous threads here (and elsewhere) about proposed clean ups, and the threads have various amounts of popularity. None can have the seal of being Canon, sadly.

But the wish that Wotc/Hasbro would give us a canonical answer to these questions is likely to go unanswered at this point.

Thus we are stuck with what we have.

Unless, I suppose, someone pulls another "Pathfinder 1e" and takes the OGL for d20 3.5 games and puts out a new version that cleans up enough of the messes, and attains a grand level of popularity that will result it it becoming the New Canon. Many have tried. The road is littered with d20 Fantasy Heartbreakers. But perhaps, someday . . .

[InvisibleBison]

But the wish that Wotc/Hasbro would give us a canonical answer to these questions is likely to go unanswered at this point.

Even if they did do so, it seems unlikely that it would actually change anything. For one thing, it's highly unlikely that they'd be able to resolve all the contentious elements of 3.5 without creating any new issues, and even if they did it's absolutely guaranteed that a lot of people wouldn't like the way they resolved this or that and would disregard it. After all, it's not like the Rules Compendium was universally accepted.

[Xervous]

Can I sig this


Go for it.

[HouseRules]

Sure, in that case, start an RHD away from ranking up and take the RHD when you want to advance. Take class levels otherwise.

While 3.0 and 3.5 has 3 RHD per age category, PF1 has 2 RHD per age category.
A 17 RHD Old White Dragon of PF1 qualifies for Epic Feats.

The True Dragon guidelines for size category does not match when we look at the weaker color and metallic dragons.
Weaker dragons change sizes slightly slower than the guidelines.
Size category change is identical to the Giant Template.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While 3.0 and 3.5 has 3 RHD per age category, PF1 has 2 RHD per age category.
A 17 RHD Old White Dragon of PF1 qualifies for Epic Feats.

In a 3.P game it (arguably) does. In just PF1 draconomicon isn't a thing. Not actually sure epic is either without going 3rd party.

[aglondier]

Hmmm...gearing up a red dragon...

First, cold resistance or immunity. An obvious weakness would not sit well with an intelligent Red.

Second, the hoard. Generate it, and give him full use of anything useful. Don't give him anything you don't want the party to have later. Adapt it for his size. Think outside the box, he knows those items inside out.

Third, he's actually a blue using a colour cantrip and a firebreath spell.

[RNightstalker]

First, cold resistance or immunity. An obvious weakness would not sit well with an intelligent Red.

Second, the hoard. Generate it, and give him full use of anything useful. Don't give him anything you don't want the party to have later. Adapt it for his size. Think outside the box, he knows those items inside out.

Third, he's actually a blue using a colour cantrip and a firebreath spell.

1st-Check
2nd-Hoard is pregenerated, but I can toggle it a little.
3rd-gotta be a red.

That being said, here is the preliminary spell list:
1-Entropic Shield, Nerveskitter, Shield, Sticky Floor, True Strike
2-Baleful Transposition, Glitterdust, Razorfangs, Scintillating Scales, Wraithstrike
3-Dispel Magic, Heroism, Lightning Bolt, Reverse Arrows
4-Breath Weapon Substitution, Dispelling Breath, Evard's Black Tentacles, Wings of Flurry
5-Flamestrike, Greater Wings of Air, Superior Magic Fang, True Seeing
6-Contingency, Greater Dispel Magic, Heal
7-Animate Breath, Energy Immunity, Finger of Death
8-Breath Weapon Admixture, Greater Spell Immunity, Otto's Irresistable Dance
9-Meteor Swarm, Miracle

What do y'all think?

[Feldar]

That being said, here is the preliminary spell list:
1-Entropic Shield, Nerveskitter, Shield, Sticky Floor, True Strike
2-Baleful Transposition, Glitterdust, Razorfangs, Scintillating Scales, Wraithstrike
3-Dispel Magic, Heroism, Lightning Bolt, Reverse Arrows
4-Breath Weapon Substitution, Dispelling Breath, Evard's Black Tentacles, Wings of Flurry
5-Flamestrike, Greater Wings of Air, Superior Magic Fang, True Seeing
6-Contingency, Greater Dispel Magic, Heal
7-Animate Breath, Energy Immunity, Finger of Death
8-Breath Weapon Admixture, Greater Spell Immunity, Otto's Irresistable Dance
9-Meteor Swarm, Miracle

What do y'all think?

Don't forget energy substitution in the feats. The characters will walk in with every fire protection under the sun.

[RNightstalker]

Don't forget energy substitution in the feats. The characters will walk in with every fire protection under the sun.

Breath Weapon Substitution and Breath Weapon Admixture cover that.

[Feldar]

Breath Weapon Substitution and Breath Weapon Admixture cover that.

Unless I missed a trick (always a possibility admittedly), those only cover the dragon's breath weapon and not the dragon's spells.

[Morphic tide]

Unless I missed a trick (always a possibility admittedly), those only cover the dragon's breath weapon and not the dragon's spells.
Meteor Swarm's the only spell there that's straight-up fire damage, Flame Strike is half unresistable.

[RNightstalker]

Unless I missed a trick (always a possibility admittedly), those only cover the dragon's breath weapon and not the dragon's spells.


Meteor Swarm's the only spell there that's straight-up fire damage, Flame Strike is half unresistable.

There's Lightning Bolt and Finger of Death for a change of pace, and don't forget Meteor Swarm can also inflict bludgeoning damage on a direct hit. I could also swap out a spell or two for acid and cold. But a couple questions pop into mind looking at these again:

-Animate Breath spell has a duration of 1rd/level...as there's no mention of discharging, does that mean multiple breaths can be animated?
-Also, how would a breath weapon under the effect of Breath Weapon Admixture combine with Animate breath?

And finally on a ridiculous note, how ridiculous would it be if a Great Wyrm decided to cast Righteous Might?

[Feldar]

Meteor Swarm's the only spell there that's straight-up fire damage, Flame Strike is half unresistable.

There's also lightning bolt.

But again, with the party entirely buffed against fire how useful will meteor swarm actually be?

[RNightstalker]

There's also lightning bolt.

But again, with the party entirely buffed against fire how useful will meteor swarm actually be?

Some spells/effects end after preventing a certain amount of damage. And if you directly hit someone with a meteor, they don't get a save, so no save for half or evasion, which can be really effective targeting only one PC: 8d6 bludgeoning no save, 24d6 fire no save (though fire resistance will count against each 6d6 meteor).

[Crake]

Don't forget energy substitution in the feats. The characters will walk in with every fire protection under the sun.

Better is a hat of disguise and a ring of resistance to cold, and disguise yourself as a white dragon, and go live in the mountains. That way, not only will they bring resistance to cold which will be useless against your fire breath, they will bring fire attacks which will be useless against your fire immunity.

[gijoemike]

What you are dealing with is a highly intelligent cunning bastard who is a full caster. Fool the party repeatedly. It was never meant to be a fair fight. I say that the dragon needs some form of true sight.


The lair itself is hostile more than the dragon. I know this was mentioned earlier in the thread. Use hallow/Unhallow, GUARDS AND WARDS, minions.

Also, doors are lies. doors are never the right answer (except that 1 time it is). There are areas that must be stone shaped to access, there are passwalls as the spell that only let the dragon + certain cohorts through, there are areas where gaseous form must be used to pass in via small cracks. There are dead ends everywhere. There is poisonous gas everywhere. Combine this with you must descend into a lower layer of sulfurous poisonous gases to find the way through. There are cracks in the wall letting the gas through, that is the same cracks you must use in gaseous form to seep through the wall to continue. It is both in plain sight and well hidden in a trap.

Illusions are over the right hallway, the wrong hallways, the pit traps, the symbol traps, have explosive runes be case behind illusionary walls. That poor wizard/cleric who has true seeing running will explode the party every few steps. Then there is an illusionary wall over a dead end hallway that has a mundane secret door hidden in it. The ppl who can see past the illusions will not look closely enough to see the hidden doors. The elves miss the hidden doors because of the illusionary walls. The true seeing caster should be afraid to look at anything closely within 5 minutes of starting the adventure.

The phrase the rogue sneaks forward and sees the dragon laying atop of the treasure pile should be impossible. The rogue waits as the barbarian uses a pick axe to very loudly chisel away at the 4th reinforced stone wall should be a phrase used. This stone wall will lead to another dead end. The adventurers are just the dragons unpaid construction crew expanding out its lair.

Most importantly, teleporting out works fine, but it isn't possible to teleport into or around the lair. Teleport, D. Door, G. Teleport. Shadowstep, planes walking. None of that works to get in.


(Actual Fight)
Finally the boss fight, getting to the dragon should be a great feat in and of itself. The dragon is well prepared for this moment. It uses it horde, it uses its spells, this fight was never going to be about strength or brutality. It is about being a cunning calculating foe. Even in the final battle the lair is being a pain as The entire horde room is shrouded in a real obscuring smoke screen.

The hat o disguise is very important. A true seeing caster will see that the whole dragon is covered by an illusion.

A dragon doesn't use its spells for damage dice. It uses its spells as an insult. Finger of death is good. M. storm will damage its own lair but is an insult to the PCs. I would keep it.

There are a number of ways via spells that a creature can obtain the cold subtype and gain immunity to cold. This totally shuts down shivering touch and most of the issues with being a big scary red dragon.

There are various forms of displacement and miss chances. Charging the dragon shouldn't happen due to environment effects and difficult terrain. Chain dispels are very much a thing.

This dragon is wearing a platinum band and has share wounds with a troll henchmen somewhere nearby. Double the dragon's HP, yes plz.

At the end they will deal the killing blow, less than 2 full minutes of actual fighting, and the dragon melts back into the snow used to cast the Simulacrum. The actual dragon, who hasn't spent any of its own resources is under the effects of dust of disappearance latched onto the ceiling where it has been for the last 3 minutes. It blurts out a belly laugh as it dives onto the PCs to start the real fight. Go carefully read dust of disappearance. It is disgusting and vile.

I suspect your PC's will do a defensive teleport the hell out and try again in a day or two. One of the first offensive things that the dragon should do is dimensional lock someone who isn't the wizard. Let the party escape but force them to leave the rogue or ranger behind. Make them feel bad. Make them INSULT themselves. If you D. lock the wizard they cannot escape and the fight becomes an all-in to win scenario.

[aglondier]

The red dragon has a hobby...breeding and raising mimics...they are everywhere...doors, chests, tables, stairs, wall panelling, beds...you name it...

[RNightstalker]

What you are dealing with is a highly intelligent cunning bastard who is a full caster. Fool the party repeatedly. It was never meant to be a fair fight. I say that the dragon needs some form of true sight.


The lair itself is hostile more than the dragon. I know this was mentioned earlier in the thread. Use hallow/Unhallow, GUARDS AND WARDS, minions.

Also, doors are lies. doors are never the right answer (except that 1 time it is). There are areas that must be stone shaped to access, there are passwalls as the spell that only let the dragon + certain cohorts through, there are areas where gaseous form must be used to pass in via small cracks. There are dead ends everywhere. There is poisonous gas everywhere. Combine this with you must descend into a lower layer of sulfurous poisonous gases to find the way through. There are cracks in the wall letting the gas through, that is the same cracks you must use in gaseous form to seep through the wall to continue. It is both in plain sight and well hidden in a trap.

Illusions are over the right hallway, the wrong hallways, the pit traps, the symbol traps, have explosive runes be case behind illusionary walls. That poor wizard/cleric who has true seeing running will explode the party every few steps. Then there is an illusionary wall over a dead end hallway that has a mundane secret door hidden in it. The ppl who can see past the illusions will not look closely enough to see the hidden doors. The elves miss the hidden doors because of the illusionary walls. The true seeing caster should be afraid to look at anything closely within 5 minutes of starting the adventure.

The phrase the rogue sneaks forward and sees the dragon laying atop of the treasure pile should be impossible. The rogue waits as the barbarian uses a pick axe to very loudly chisel away at the 4th reinforced stone wall should be a phrase used. This stone wall will lead to another dead end. The adventurers are just the dragons unpaid construction crew expanding out its lair.

Most importantly, teleporting out works fine, but it isn't possible to teleport into or around the lair. Teleport, D. Door, G. Teleport. Shadowstep, planes walking. None of that works to get in.


(Actual Fight)
Finally the boss fight, getting to the dragon should be a great feat in and of itself. The dragon is well prepared for this moment. It uses it horde, it uses its spells, this fight was never going to be about strength or brutality. It is about being a cunning calculating foe. Even in the final battle the lair is being a pain as The entire horde room is shrouded in a real obscuring smoke screen.

The hat o disguise is very important. A true seeing caster will see that the whole dragon is covered by an illusion.

A dragon doesn't use its spells for damage dice. It uses its spells as an insult. Finger of death is good. M. storm will damage its own lair but is an insult to the PCs. I would keep it.

There are a number of ways via spells that a creature can obtain the cold subtype and gain immunity to cold. This totally shuts down shivering touch and most of the issues with being a big scary red dragon.

There are various forms of displacement and miss chances. Charging the dragon shouldn't happen due to environment effects and difficult terrain. Chain dispels are very much a thing.

This dragon is wearing a platinum band and has share wounds with a troll henchmen somewhere nearby. Double the dragon's HP, yes plz.

At the end they will deal the killing blow, less than 2 full minutes of actual fighting, and the dragon melts back into the snow used to cast the Simulacrum. The actual dragon, who hasn't spent any of its own resources is under the effects of dust of disappearance latched onto the ceiling where it has been for the last 3 minutes. It blurts out a belly laugh as it dives onto the PCs to start the real fight. Go carefully read dust of disappearance. It is disgusting and vile.

I suspect your PC's will do a defensive teleport the hell out and try again in a day or two. One of the first offensive things that the dragon should do is dimensional lock someone who isn't the wizard. Let the party escape but force them to leave the rogue or ranger behind. Make them feel bad. Make them INSULT themselves. If you D. lock the wizard they cannot escape and the fight becomes an all-in to win scenario.


The red dragon has a hobby...breeding and raising mimics...they are everywhere...doors, chests, tables, stairs, wall panelling, beds...you name it...

Some of those things are already included. As for most of those things, I would like to continue playing with those players again lol.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Give the dragon access to unhallow, acorn of far travel, and the Sculpt Spell feat (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?546179-Un-Hallow-that-Stacks).

Turning a ton of buffs on at the same time is quite the benefit, after all.

[TotallyNotEvil]

You know what's really neat? Breath Spells.

Blinding Breath, Dispelling Breath, Enervating Breath, and others. All sorts of fun spells, and very dragon-y. Makes for a great combination with the metabreath feats.

[RNightstalker]

You know what's really neat? Breath Spells.

Blinding Breath, Dispelling Breath, Enervating Breath, and others. All sorts of fun spells, and very dragon-y. Makes for a great combination with the metabreath feats.

I've got dispelling breath and animate breath and admixture...think the last two working together could be quite interesting.

[Gorthawar]

I've got dispelling breath and animate breath and admixture...think the last two working together could be quite interesting.
Some of the breath spells have been updated (nerfed) in the spell compendium and animate breath seems very underwhelming for a level 7 spell. Breath admixture is now level 9 I believe.

[RNightstalker]

Some of the breath spells have been updated (nerfed) in the spell compendium and animate breath seems very underwhelming for a level 7 spell. Breath admixture is now level 9 I believe.

But would both work together, for an admixed animated breath?

[Gorthawar]

But would both work together, for an admixed animated breath?

I'd say so but whilst the draconomicon version of the spells would arguably get you a 48hd gargantuan construct the update to animate breath only turns your breath into a huge fire elemental. The combination with energy admixture would only change the damage type the elemental does and give it some more immunities. Not very good for the expense of a level 7 and a level 9 spell imho.

[RNightstalker]

I'd say so but whilst the draconomicon version of the spells would arguably get you a 48hd gargantuan construct the update to animate breath only turns your breath into a huge fire elemental. The combination with energy admixture would only change the damage type the elemental does and give it some more immunities. Not very good for the expense of a level 7 and a level 9 spell imho.

It did get nerfed pretty good...guess I'll use the original version:biggrin: