Opinion: These cantrips should be bonus action

[Aaedimus]

Light
Prestidigitation
Druidcraft
mage hand
thaumaturgy
message
Dancing Lights

gust? -I've never seen it used in play, it would be fun to see
mending? -again, might be strong in niche situations? But honestly being touch, the caster has to lose position to cast it, so I think it could make for interesting scenarios.

Reason:
many of these are theoretically really good, yes, but a lot of time (a majority of the time) they are underused, and it feels like a lot of cantrips in later levels get left behind. Damaging cantrips obviously keep getting used only because they scale, but in combat, none of these get a chance to see much play. I want my players to be ingenuitive, and to feel magical.

I don't think any of these would break encounters in combat, and out of combat action/bonus action really doesn't matter all that much.

The negative: Casters can already do a lot, and martial might feel left out
-I think martials need more interesting things that they can do to make up for the lack of magic anyways, I'd like to fix this separately, but I don't see it as a reason to stop the other players from having access to more on-demand magic.

thoughts?

[PhantomSoul]

What combat applications are you trying to promote? And is there being a larger cost a benefit (e.g. Light countering a lack of Darkvision within a certain Range -- and with a huge Duration at that)? Message I could for specific Subclasses or Races (like how telepathy is given out), but the Classes with the Cantrip often have less to do with their Bonus Action out of the box, so it being an Action might be worthwhile to make giving information more easily a choice. Mage Hand already has controlling it as a Bonus Action be a Subclass-specific Feature (that ties into it gaining in-Combat uses for that Subclass). I'm not sure that everything should be turned into a combat cantrip, though -- quite the opposite, giving different areas for different options to shine (and letting creativity do the rest) seems like a benefit. I've even seen Gust in combat!

[Lunali]

I'd have to disagree on most of these.

Light and dancing lights should be active ahead of time unless you're hiding or someone bothers to get rid of them, in which case it should have a meaningful cost attached to casting it.

Druidcraft, prestidigitation and thaumaturgy I've seen used in combat to some effect, mostly to change the battlefield. The only qualifier I'd say is that they should be allowed as part of another action, such as persuade/intimidate.

Mage hand I could see being useful for arcane tricksters to be able to cast as a BA, but allowing others to do so feels like stepping on their toes a bit.


Mostly I think that if they're not getting used in combat, that's good, they're not intended for combat, the options that are intended for combat should probably be better for combat. If these spells aren't seeing much use outside combat in your parties, that's more a problem with your group. I know for my sake I typically pick 1-2 combat cantrips and as many non-combat ones as I can manage, sometimes picking things like tome pact just so I can get more of them.

[Ortho]

many of these are theoretically really good, yes, but a lot of time (a majority of the time) they are underused, and it feels like a lot of cantrips in later levels get left behind. Damaging cantrips obviously keep getting used only because they scale, but in combat, none of these get a chance to see much play. I want my players to be ingenuitive, and to feel magical.

I don't think any of these would break encounters in combat, and out of combat action/bonus action really doesn't matter all that much.

You're right in that changing the casting time wouldn't break encounters - but the reason these cantrips aren't cast in combat is because they simply aren't designed to be used in combat. There's not many ways that reflavoring up to one cubic foot of food can alter the battlefield, after all.

[greenstone]

Light
Prestidigitation
Druidcraft
mage hand
thaumaturgy
message
Dancing Lights

I don't think I've ever seen these cast in combat. Only out of combat, where Action and Bonus Action don't apply.

I could imagine mage hand used in combat (for example, to grab a disarmed weapon), but not the others.

[Tanarii]

Druidcraft, prestidigitation and thaumaturgy I've seen used in combat to some effect, mostly to change the battlefield. The only qualifier I'd say is that they should be allowed as part of another action, such as persuade/intimidate.
More details on exactly what they did please?

[KorvinStarmast]

There's not many ways that reflavoring up to one cubic foot of food can alter the battlefield, after all. Unless the fight is a "pie in the face" kind of battle, or an Animal House style food fight.

I don't think I've ever seen these cast in combat.
I have cast the light cantrip about a half a dozen times, to make sure people can see the enemy ... but sometimes they made the save. :smallyuk: Quite rare, over the course of 6 years, but it's a less expensive way to keep someone from hiding or be seen than something like faerie fire.

I could imagine mage hand used in combat (for example, to grab a disarmed weapon), but not the others. Or to pour a potion down someone's throat?

Why did I bother with the light cantrip? Two reasons. One was to keep track of an enemy, but the other one is based on my still having, when we started, an AD&D idea that casting light on the enemy would make his battle harder for him. If you did that in AD&D 1e you could get the enemy a -4 to attack if you got the light in his face (save available, of course) but in this edition that kind of impact would not fit bounded accuracy very well and it's not available.

Anyway, I have done it albeit rarely

[Tanarii]

Or to pour a potion down someone's throat?
Thats an extra action or object interaction to get the potion into the Mage Handin the first place. 1 object interaction to get it out of a pouch, 1 action or object interaction (DM call) to have the mage hand take it / to give it to the mage hand, and 1 action to pour it after moving. Which means 2 actions effectively, because even if they rule the second object interaction is an object interaction, you still need to use an action to get a second one.

So yeah, the DM rules it's a bonus action to use the hand (stepping heavily on ATs), that makes it possible to do in one round (without an Action Surge).

[Monster Manuel]

There's not many ways that reflavoring up to one cubic foot of food can alter the battlefield, after all.

Party member was grappled by something with Devour Whole, and the DM was generous with the definition of "food", so I made them taste revolting. They got advantage on their attempt to break free of being eaten.

But, yeah. Exception that proves the rule.

Another one to add to this list is Spare the Dying...completely useless cantrip since ANYONE can use an action to stabilize a dying ally, you don't even need the spell. The boost that Spare the Dying gets for the Grave cleric (usable at range, bonus action) make it actually useful as a class feature for them. Letting everyone cast it as a bonus action helps fix the spell, but it lessens the ability reserved for the Grave cleric. You have to watch out for things like that when buffing spells in this way.

I'd allow the "special effects" cantrips (prestidigitation, druidcraft, thaumaturgy) to be cast as bonus actions, though, just to let players better use them as part of RPing in-combat.

[MoiMagnus]

I'd note that one important difference between action spells and BA spells is that the latter can be cast while you're running at full speed, while you will need to slow down a little to cast the former (unless you're Rogue).

Dancing light as a BA cantrip would be very practical as a distraction while running away for your life. (Probably combined with a Deception skill check).

[Samayu]

Another one to add to this list is Spare the Dying...completely useless cantrip since ANYONE can use an action to stabilize a dying ally, you don't even need the spell. The boost that Spare the Dying gets for the Grave cleric (usable at range, bonus action) make it actually useful as a class feature for them. Letting everyone cast it as a bonus action helps fix the spell, but it lessens the ability reserved for the Grave cleric. You have to watch out for things like that when buffing spells in this way.

The Stabilize action requires a DC10 Medicine check. Barely better than 50/50 for most people.

I played a Grave Cleric for about a dozen levels. I'm not sure I used that cantrip more than once. It was pretty handy that one time, though.

[Vogie]

I could see that... if they wanted to flesh out more things for those things in combat.

Light could, when it scales up, be used as a temp blind, as the above noted

Message and Thaumaturgy could be part of an in-combat Intimidation action, similar to PF2's Demoralize action.

Druidcraft and Prestidigitation could be used in the same vein as a sort of Create a Diversion action, a la PF2 again.

Mage hand could be kitted out far more than the AT has already (I have a homebrew Warlock subclass (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23643834&postcount=8) that slowly upgrades the Mage hand into bigby's hand, for example).

However, unless you were going to create a similar set of abilities that is available to the martial classes for just as little of an investment, I wouldn't encourage it. The disparity already is huge.

What I could see is a feat, or collection of them, that allows a PC to 'militarize' their existing cantrips while also providing that cantrip so anyone could get it. So a melee Rogue or Ranger could use the Light cantrip as a sort of 'pocket sand' effect just as well as a Bladesinger or Bladelock could.

[Ashe]

I'd note that one important difference between action spells and BA spells is that the latter can be cast while you're running at full speed, while you will need to slow down a little to cast the former (unless you're Rogue).

I've never heard of any such rule?

[SharkForce]

I've never heard of any such rule?

it is derived from the fact that you need to spend your action to dash (or at least, most people do).

in general, I have to agree that making these bonus actions takes away from those that get special abilities to do them as bonus actions (or to otherwise combine them with standard actions).

[Lunali]

I've never heard of any such rule?

You can't dash if you're using your action to cast a spell; if you aren't dashing you aren't running at full speed.

[Carpe Gonzo]

If you cast a spell as a bonus action, you can only cast cantrips with your action. So you're not really saving much here. If anything, you'd be making them weaker for sorcerers with the quicken metamagic.

[Selion]

The only cantrip that really cries to become a bonus action is true strike, and I hope they'll include an errata about that.
Prestidigitation and mage hand are among the best spells in the game at early levels, what's the point increasing their power?

[stoutstien]

Both light and dancing light(dim light has some serious power moves) provide powerful tactical lighting control. Mage hand is one of the most useful cantrips when dealing with anything you need done control of without touching it and the rest are just good fun.

If they are going under used it's probably an issue with the game pacing and encounter design rather than a problem with the spells themselves.

[Segev]

For light, have you considered just casting it on a piece of ammunition ahead of time, and then hitting something with it? An arrow, for instance, that is glowing brightly and stuck in something's shoulder is probably going to keep it well-lit.