calculating magic item costs

[Feldar]

I've been looking at magic item costs and frankly can't seem to find any rhyme or reason therein.

A ring of freedom of movement (spell level 4 * caster level 7 * 2000gp continuous * 1.5 for 10min per level duration) should cost 84,000g according to the formula in the DMG. Listed market price is 40,000g.

A ring of mind shielding requires a 3rd level spell, nondetection, at caster level 3. 3 * 3 * 2000g = 18,000g. The market price is 8,000g. (Even more baffling is why it's called a ring of mind shielding when it does no such thing except for block detect divinations)

Ok, whatever - I can get behind the function of this ring not being super useful and so meriting a price reduction. I cannot imagine why any such reduction would be applied to the ring of freedom of movement when 3.5 grappling is severly broke. I might as well let a player have a ring of improved invisibility for 40,000g!

Clearly I'm missing something, but I'll be darned if I can figure out what.

[ApologyFestival]

You're missing the most important parts, which are that these formulas are intended to be used by DMs -- not players -- and that they only provide a ballpark figure. In the case where the formula produces a nonsensical value, the DM is expected to use their own judgement.


Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values.


Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

When determining the value of a custom magic item, the best thing to do is compare it to an equivalent item. If no equivalent item exists, it probably doesn't exist for good reason.

[Feldar]

Yeah, with respects I didn't miss those parts. As the GM, there is a reasonable amount of work to be done before my high level gets rolling and "Because I say so" is a horrible way to run a game. There needs to be some reason why I rule specific costs for items the characters want to make.


You're missing the most important parts, which are that these formulas are intended to be used by DMs -- not players -- and that they only provide a ballpark figure.

I would counter that you're missing that most players do actually own the book where the formulas are presented, whether it be the DMG or the Pathfinder rule book.

[Kelenius]

The boring answer is that the prices of these items don't follow the guidelines because they weren't made with them in mind. Most likely the item is inherited from an earlier system without changes to the price, or simply priced on their creator's whim. It also could be that the creator thought it would be over/underpriced according to the guideline.

[BaronDoctor]

When looking at pricing, it's usually worthwhile to consider what WBL is supposed to look like and what the earliest level "half your wealth in one item" could be. For the Ring of FoM that doesn't happen until 12th, but as priced for a constant effect "slotless" it's 15th.

[Feldar]

Yeah, probably more than one creator too.

So, who's got a logical set of rules for calculating magic item costs?

[KillianHawkeye]

So, who's got a logical set of rules for calculating magic item costs?

Nobody does. That's the point.

[HouseRules]

continuous as rounds per level 8,000 gp
continuous as minute per level 4,000 gp
continuous as 10 minutes per level 3,000 gp
continuous as hour per level 2,000 gp
command word (at will) 1,800 gp
continuous as 100 charges 1,500 gp
continuous beyond 24 hours 1,000 gp

14,400 level at round per level
1,440 level at minute per level
144 level at 10 minutes per level
24 level at hour per level


Try to justify as 100 charges to get it cheaper.

Try to use a specialized formula: (a) Bonus Squared times X, or (b) Spell Resistance x 10,000 gp

For the Bonus Squared, you only need 3/4 caster level (crafting bonus)
Greater Magic Weapon: +1 per 4 levels combat, +1 per 3 levels crafting

Justify as 100 charges, unless (a) command word, or (b) at least 24 hours duration

[Biggus]

Yeah, DMG item pricing are terrible, I once saw someone estimate that 75% of the items in there will never be used and I don't think that's far off. MIC prices are a bit better to use as a guideline, although there are still some silly ones in there.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, with respects I didn't miss those parts. As the GM, there is a reasonable amount of work to be done before my high level gets rolling and "Because I say so" is a horrible way to run a game. There needs to be some reason why I rule specific costs for items the characters want to make.
You don't think there's any middle ground between "I have a precise mathematical formula that I will strictly adhere to" and "I just throw darts at a list of numbers, lol"?

The developers shared some of their internal magic item guidelines when MIC came out. If you want insight on how existing items were priced, here you go: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070316a

[Tiktakkat]

You don't think there's any middle ground between "I have a precise mathematical formula that I will strictly adhere to" and "I just throw darts at a list of numbers, lol"?

The developers shared some of their internal magic item guidelines when MIC came out. If you want insight on how existing items were priced, here you go: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070316a

No, not really, that is pretty much what Andy Collins says in that essay.

More generally, it might be instructive to look at the history of item creation.

In AD&D, the rules were pretty much "make the PCs wait until name level, make them jump through hoops to find fantastic materials, and then make them roll a less than 50% chance to succeed until they go back to questing for random items like proper heroes".

This was modified by rules first introduced in a Known World gazetteer, then later refined and finally introduced in AD&D 2nd edition. They had a better chance of success than the AD&D rules, but were still pretty much for characters above 10th level, and with annoying material requirements and support costs, so you should just go out adventuring and get your magic the old fashioned way - murder hoboing.

For 3E they decided to make rules with formulas, whose mathematical perfection quickly fell apart both as noted in that essay (what are the options for that slot) and also with the WBL concept (double your wealth while having your xp!).

And so they disappeared in 4th edition.

They returned in 5th edition but utterly simplified - every item of the same level has the same cost to craft.


So . . . yeah. Pretty much any concept of magic item creation rules is incompatible without a liberal application of handwavium at some point in the process, at least for the people at WotC, extending to the people at Paizo, leaving throwing darts as possibly more balanced than any published set of rules.