OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Aquillion

2021-03-17, 07:12 AM

That's a shocker. She's gone insane.
Has she, though?

To a certain extent she's not wrong - having the gate destroyed would be a worst-case scenario, significantly worse than anything Xykon or the Dark One is likely to dish out (at least immediately.)

On top of this, while people might say she doesn't know about the gods - remember, the gods were considering destroying the world because the gate might be destroyed, not because of Xykon's plans. So even if she knows about them, ending the conflict by letting Xykon or the Dark One take the gate would make sense to her.

The big problem I see in her plans is that if the ritual actually gave Xykon control of the gate, that would make it very likely that he'd eventually destroy or open it - either because he got bored, or as a last-ditch effort when things don't go his way. He's far more likely to destroy the world in a fit of pique than the heroes are, and getting control over the gate would put him in a position to easily do so.

Even if she knows what the ritual actually does somehow, it doesn't change things much. The Dark One could easily fail to get a deal he likes and decide to destroy the other gods, incorrectly believing that he can either maintain this world himself or make a new one in the future. Either way, giving anyone control over the gate greatly increases the risk of catastrophic outcomes in the long term.

Ivrytwr

2021-03-17, 07:14 AM

"Auntie" is going to set it right. Logic is broken, but she may be a bit askew too.
Thanks Giant!

HeeJay

2021-03-17, 07:15 AM

Outstanding writing!

She's a good and decent person, but because she's missing pieces of information, she'll now become a dangerous antagonist.

EmperorSarda

2021-03-17, 07:17 AM

So... biggest thing that will deter Serini is that the Order is not hiding behind some snow bank. Maybe she has a scrying item that shows her that the Order crossed into the true tunnel. But we have not seen any such thing.

Even so, I think Serini is going to burst onto the scene right before Xykon leaves the door.

Ghosty

2021-03-17, 07:18 AM

I don't think so? She's clearly going after the Order as well under the same premise. We can disagree with her premise, given how we know her incomplete view, but it's pretty rational.

Completely blowing off the Paladins' point that, "We only tried to blow up our Gate because we knew we had spares, and that's obviously not the case now...," doesn't strike me as rational.

We also don't know when this interlude between Serini and the Paladins is taking place, relative to the exact timing of the Order's arrival, the failed negotiation with RedCloak, the chase, and the Order disabling the main teleport trap. But disabling the teleport trap strikes me as something: 1) incredibly important to Serini's defenses, far more than just another party plumbing through Monster Hollow, and therefore 2) she has a way of knowing quickly/instantly if it's been done. If it has been done, she needs to leave the Paladins and deal with it. Right. Now.

dancrilis

2021-03-17, 07:20 AM

Good for Serini - I believe that I once mentioned that the world might be better off just giving Xykon a gate, nice to see the viewpoint presented in comic.

KorvinStarmast

2021-03-17, 07:22 AM

That's a shocker. She's gone insane. Nope. Her logic is pretty sound based on the following assumption: existing, with a complete {censored} ruling the world (before someone topples him, which she knows is possible given the existence of adventurers) beats not existing. There are a variety of RL parallels that I'll not introduce due to forum rules but suffice to say that the choices, as she sees it, are not binary: there is a third, fourth, or even fifth option. (We could toss in the old 'where there's life there's hope' cliche, but I'm not sure that she thinks along those lines).

Granted, the observation that she has incomplete information, being a character in the story rather than a reader of the story, is true but irrelevant as regards her sanity and motivations.

Omniscience is granted to nobody in the OoTSverse, not even various deities. Holding Serini to that standard seems both unfair and impractical.

She's a good and decent person, but because she's missing pieces of information, she'll now become a dangerous antagonist. Just like the Order; in their case the danger to the world began because Elan is a moron. (Dorukan's gate). Serini is no moron.

Whether or not she knows about The Plan (Reddy and Xykon) and its inner workings remains unclear, but I suspect that she does not. If she knew about The Plan, I suspect she'd have a different implementation of "keep the world from blowing up" in place.

Lastly: she's an epic level rogue, or at least we think she is. I recall something from Xykon to V about power and how V's boost was shackled to "your mid level ass" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) - while I am not sure if levels 13-16 are 'mid level' they are a far cry from epic.

Taevyr

2021-03-17, 07:25 AM

Well, her logic is at the very least correct in the "Xykon winning>All gates are destroyed" sense.

Going straight from that to "I need to allow Xykon to win", rather than, I don't know, helping the parties involved get rid of Xykon so the last gate never needs to be threatened in the first place, does imply more than a bit of bias. And likely a strong case of PXSD.

A very well-done character, Giant. Looking forward to her ambushing the order.

The Pilgrim

2021-03-17, 07:25 AM

And Serini votes for Safety over Freedom.

Rather unexpected on a Chaotic character, but people tend to go that way as they grew older.

RMS Oceanic

2021-03-17, 07:27 AM

Completely blowing off the Paladins' point that, "We only tried to blow up our Gate because we knew we had spares, and that's obviously not the case now...," doesn't strike me as rational.

She's seen a pattern of behaviour from them (never mind that technically it was only the one gate the Paladins consciously chose to destroy), and from her perspective she sees no reason for that behaviour to change just because they say they really mean it this time.

Schroeswald

2021-03-17, 07:29 AM

I don’t think that Serini knows what the Plan is but she does know that Redcloak has a goal of fixing the situation of the monster races, and she is sympathetic so I think she might have a role in that resolution.

Peelee

2021-03-17, 07:31 AM

Well the best-case scenario is still "nobody finds the last gate, ever".
Indeed.

"Auntie" is going to set it right. Logic is broken, but she may be a bit askew too.
Thanks Giant!
Logic seems perfectly sound to me. Not nice, or best case scenario, but sound.

Ninja Dragon

2021-03-17, 07:31 AM

Adventurers, beware.

There's an epic rogue on the loose.

And you're walking in her dungeon, whose traps she had half a century to set up.

Daibhid C

2021-03-17, 07:33 AM

Completely blowing off the Paladins' point that, "We only tried to blow up our Gate because we knew we had spares, and that's obviously not the case now...," doesn't strike me as rational.

I suspect she feels that "Between us and the Order of the Strick, this is the only Gate left, so obviously neither of us will destroy this one" isn't the killer argument Lien thinks.

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 07:34 AM

I... I can't see how any good can come of this.

Serini's far, far too strong for the Order to even have a chance; she could probably kill half the Order in the surprise round! And from what I've seen of her, I don't think she's going to listen to the Order at all. Both Durkon and Roy don't want the Gate to be destroyed, even if they don't agree on what to do, but I'm not sure if that'd matter to her.

...Well, I guess Elan knows Neutralize Poison?

Ghosty

2021-03-17, 07:35 AM

Of course Serini may be bluffing to hide exactly what she knows about Soon's Gate's destruction. But to me, the dialogue in Panel 2 and 3 suggest she really doesn't know what happened inside of the throne room, but rather she---as suggested before here in previous threads by a few of you---learned how the Gate blew up via scrying O-Chul's debriefing with Hinjo.

O-Chul didn't have any choices at all to destroy the Gate or not. Being Paralyzed by a Lich'll do that.

So if she really didn't know how the Gate got blown up, then perhaps she doesn't know exactly how Girard's Gate went boom? Or Dorukan's. (Which'll make Elan sleep a little easier.) Point is, there may be a lot less that Serini's knows than she realizes, or that we initially thought she might've known.

Fyraltari

2021-03-17, 07:37 AM

Well, it's going to be an intersting ambush, isn't it.

So... biggest thing that will deter Serini is that the Order is not hiding behind some snow bank. Maybe she has a scrying item that shows her that the Order crossed into the true tunnel. But we have not seen any such thing.

I wonder what her goggles are for...

Jan Mattys

2021-03-17, 07:38 AM

The thing I find most interesting in this strip is that Serini actually cares about other creatures and not just PC races.

She even points out that under Xykon's rule some will live better indeed, and she seems to be ok with the thought after all.

Peelee

2021-03-17, 07:39 AM

O-Chul didn't have any choices at all to destroy the Gate or not. Being Paralyzed by a Lich'll do that.

O-Chul did make the choice to destroy the Gate. He even openly admitted that to Hinjo. As you note, he didn't do it solely because Xykon paralyzed him, but he absolutely 100% would have. That holds whether she saw the throne room or not, do it doesn't give us any clarity Into what exactly she knows.

arimareiji

2021-03-17, 07:39 AM

We also don't know when this interlude between Serini and the Paladins is taking place, relative to the exact timing of the Order's arrival, the failed negotiation with RedCloak, the chase, and the Order disabling the main teleport trap. But disabling the teleport trap strikes me as something: 1) incredibly important to Serini's defenses, far more than just another party plumbing through Monster Hollow, and therefore 2) she has a way of knowing quickly/instantly if it's been done. If it has been done, she needs to leave the Paladins and deal with it. Right. Now.
That's one thing that's always put sand in my knickers about heroes invoking the trope "We have to beat the bad guy to the MacGuffin just in the nick of time!".

Unless the heroes have a solid plan for
~ destroying it (in this case, a Very Bad Idea™),
~ concealing it (it already is concealed, better than the Order can do),
~ or moving it (that's RC's plan, and he refuses to take Durkon's word for why it's a VBI)...
what the heck do they think getting there first will accomplish? Especially given that the genre-savvy (or those who have already been there, done that, like the order) can surmise the Bad Guys™ may very well be planning for just that to happen (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0054.html) so they can seize it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html).

Which makes Serini a very, very long way from "insane" to not blindly trust them given the extent of what she knows.

dancrilis

2021-03-17, 07:41 AM

Serini's far, far too strong for the Order to even have a chance; she could probably kill half the Order in the surprise round! And from what I've seen of her, I don't think she's going to listen to the Order at all. Both Durkon and Roy don't want the Gate to be destroyed, even if they don't agree on what to do, but I'm not sure if that'd matter to her.

She doesn't seem interested in killing people, and if she is 'far, far too strong for the Order' then they might as well give up of facing Xykon(and company) unless they plan to reuse the 'destroy the gate' plan.

Peelee

2021-03-17, 07:42 AM

Lady Corvus

2021-03-17, 07:46 AM

Wow, Xykon is really good at making people underestimate him. It's probably the scariest thing about him.

I have a question though: If she thinks she can kidnap the whole Order and mindwipe them, why hasn't she done the same to say, Redcloak? Alone he can't be as dangerous as the Order and that'd actually ruin Xykon's plan.

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 07:49 AM

She doesn't seem interested in killing people, and if she is 'far, far too strong for the Order' then they might as well give up of facing Xykon(and company) unless they plan to reuse the 'destroy the gate' plan.

Personally I think that Xykon is too strong for the Order and there's no chance without ridiculous amounts of author fiat(granted, this is a comic and not an actual game), or my personal headcanon of "Roy bullrushes him through the Gate and the Snarl eats him".

Also I know that Serini probably won't try to kill them, but my point is that an epic level Rogue could probably KO Vaarsuvius with just one crossbow bolt if she got a Sneak Attack in, and quite possibly Elan and Haley as well. And that's before magic items and poison.

dancrilis

2021-03-17, 07:49 AM

That's one thing that's always put sand in my knickers about heroes invoking the trope "We have to beat the bad guy to the MacGuffin just in the nick of time!".

In fairness to the Order (and therefore to The Giant), they are not planning to do that.
Roy's plan is to stop Xykon before either group find the Gate (and he intends to delibrately not look for it), per 1224 (panels 1, 2, 3) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1224.html).

KorvinStarmast

2021-03-17, 07:50 AM

Serini's far, far too strong for the Order to even have a chance; she could probably kill half the Order in the surprise round! Will he remember that he has the spell?

The key point that you raise about Serini is that she has the advantage of surprise: the Order has a bunch of experience with Xykon and have some intel on him from O-Chul. Serini is not just an unknown, she has intel on them and they have no intel on her. They aren't even sure that she is still alive.

Sun Tzu's aphorism about knowing your enemy, and yourself, if you want to have a victory seems to apply here. Serini has both, and the Order has only the knowledge of self.

She's got the edge.

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 07:52 AM

Metastachydium

2021-03-17, 07:55 AM

Good for Serini - I believe that I once mentioned that the world might be better off just giving Xykon a gate, nice to see the viewpoint presented in comic.

And she's wrong in considering that a viable option. Giving the Gate to Redcloak is one thing (and I still believe it could work), but if Serini knows what Xykon thinks he needs a Gate for, she is delusional. Xykon thinks that the Ritual will allow him to release the Snarl under controlled circumstances, which even if it worked like that would cause immense collateral damage (because unlike the gods, most inhabitants of the Sticverse do not know about the Snarl, so Xykon would have to demonstrate what it can do at least once for his scheme to work), including the erasure of a vast number of living creatures from existence forever. Also, if he could indeed gain control of the snarl, there would be no toppling him. I mean, a bunch of misfits stopping a lich is one thing; a bunch of misfits fighting an abomination that kills gods and eats worlds is another.

KorvinStarmast

2021-03-17, 07:55 AM

Beyond all that, in Panel 8 Serini is wrong to blame the Paladins and the Order for four blown chances.

They had three blown chances:

Elan and Dorukan's gage
Azure City's gate
Roy and Girard's gate.

The Paladins + The Order combined had three chances. (In baseball terms, three blown saves).

The first chance to protect gates had nothing to do with the order, and nothing to do with the Paladins but it had to do with Serini's old comrade Lirian and a certain pyromaniac goblin.
(SoD and Lirian and Dorukan and how the ents holding the gate together caught fire ... )

Linneris

2021-03-17, 07:56 AM

Bravo, Giant. A character who is not evil but has every reason (from her perspective, given what she knows) to oppose the protagonists. We need more of that in stories.

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 07:56 AM

Will he remember that he has the spell?

The key point that you raise about Serini is that she has the advantage of surprise: the Order has a bunch of experience with Xykon and have some intel on him from O-Chul. Serini is not just an unknown, she has intel on them and they have no intel on her. They aren't even sure that she is still alive.

Sun Tzu's aphorism about knowing your enemy, and yourself, if you want to have a victory seems to apply here. Serini has both, and the Order has only the knowledge of self.

She's got the edge.

Well yes, sure. But I'm still not sure if they can beat him. He's completely immune to like half the party and the other half doesn't do that well against him.

And that's just Xykon; add in Redcloak and I'm not sure if their knowledge would even matter at that point.

arimareiji

2021-03-17, 07:58 AM

Option 4 - defending it.
Indeed, or destroying Xykon (which I believe is their plan A) as "the best defense". Doing that doesn't require finding the gate under these circumstances, unless they know Xykon has already found it. Which puts them one up on their old selves, or the party looking for the Lost Treasure of Sdigiji (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html). I get the feeling that the Giant would much rather show the trope played out intelligently this time.

But at the moment, all Serini has witnessed the paladins doing is talking with unseen allies -- and discussing how they'll find the gate. From her point of view, Stupid Isn't Always Cute (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html). Especially when it can lead to the world ending, not with a bang but an "Oopsie!".

Thecommander236

2021-03-17, 07:58 AM

Oh that's good. Roy can tell her about the world inside the rift and that he wasn't even looking for the gate in the first place. And about the plan the Dark One has set up and all the other factions involved including the Fiends which she can't mind wipe.

But this also forces his hand so he doesn't kill Xykon early.

Paranoid idiot is about to fix everything again. 50 bucks says they end on the other world.

Ghosty

2021-03-17, 07:58 AM

She's seen a pattern of behaviour from them (never mind that technically it was only the one gate the Paladins consciously chose to destroy), and from her perspective she sees no reason for that behaviour to change just because they say they really mean it this time.

That reasoning doesn't make sense from a rational character. (Of course, she may not be totally rational now.) The circumstances have completely changed. From having another chance not to blow it, to 'this is it.' Actions that makes sense under one set of circumstances---we have a spare Gate---wouldn't make sense to do at all given an opposite set of circumstances---we don't have a spare Gate. I wouldn't expect people to act the same way under both sets of conditions, so I don't understand why Serini expects they would.

Now, there are two sets of questions where the answers might lead Serini to think that the Paladins & the Order would blow her Gate up, despite this being the last one. First, the question, "Is oblivion better than Life Under Xykon," despite one being permanent and one we're pretty sure wouldn't be? It's conceivable the answer is, "Yes". She even alludes to kobolds, orcs, trolls maybe having feelings that way.

Second question, "Would the Order/Paladins, threaten to destroy the Gate, if they felt that was their only way to get Team Evil to back off?" (This obviously works for The Gods too.) And you thought MAD was a concept in character creation...

In that case, even if the Order is bluffing, they're still in a position to do it, might accidentally do it, or the Gate might be destroyed from collateral damage of an Order/Team Evil fight. Odds are, the Order has to be near the Gate to kill it. Roy had to whack Girard's Gate a few times, Miko had to physically strike Soon's Gate, etc... If the fighting groups are near the Gate, the Gate's in danger.

KorvinStarmast

2021-03-17, 07:58 AM

Kelenius

2021-03-17, 07:59 AM

Well, I hope people stop saying that Serini is going to be the mysterious ally now.

Rinazina

2021-03-17, 08:00 AM

Whoa! this is a great setup for the Neutralize Potion from Elan's development :)

PRESERVE THE (HI)STORY

Lady Corvus

2021-03-17, 08:00 AM

And she's wrong in considering that a viable option. Giving the Gate to Redcloak is one thing (and I still believe it could work), but if Serini knows what Xykon thinks he needs a Gate for, she is delusional. Xykon thinks that the Ritual will allow him to release the Snarl under controlled circumstances, which even if it worked like that would cause immense collateral damage (because unlike the gods, most inhabitants of the Sticverse do not know about the Snarl, so Xykon would have to demonstrate what it can do at least once for his scheme to work), including the erasure of a vast number of living creatures from existence forever. Also, if he could indeed gain control of the snarl, there would be no toppling him. I mean, a bunch of misfits stopping a lich is one thing; a bunch of misfits fighting an abomination that kills gods and eats worlds is another.

Because Xykon has never shown a willingness to kill large numbers of living things for his own amusement...

Or Xykon just gets bored one day and unleashes the Snarl upon a god. Or does something similar to the Plan and blackmails the gods into making him a god.

Old lady halfling either has no real clue who Xykon is or is just dumb. Those Trolls she loves so much might just be erased from existence because Xykie doesn't like their smell.

Kerching

2021-03-17, 08:01 AM

Theory: Serini will subdue the Order, but the IFCC will pull Vaarsuvius away before Serini can capture them. Hilarity ensues as the Order tries to explain to Serini exactly why V disappeared.

Rinazina

2021-03-17, 08:01 AM

Well, I hope people stop saying that Serini is going to be the mysterious ally now.

she'll lose and learn from Durkon?

elros

2021-03-17, 08:02 AM

I think Serini actually makes a lot of sense.
First, the Sapphire Guard and OOTS willingly destroyed the last two gates, so Serini has every right to be skeptical that they will do something different next time.
Second, Serini trusts her defenses for the final gate. She has seen Team Evil completely fail over the last few weeks, and they did not even get past the first line of defense. She may be able to fend them off indefinitely.
Third, Serini might be the one creature that could convince Redcloak to work with the gods. She understands the plight of monsters in this world, and has the charisma to make a convincing argument to him. Plus, she is stealthy enough to be able to get him without Xykon finding out.
I don't think Serini is an antagonist, but merely another player in a complex game where no one actually knows what is going on.

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 08:03 AM

Which is why Roy knows that he has to have the advantage of surprise if he's going to have a shot at taking Xykon down. It's a force multiplier.

I am aware, yes, and I doubt it'll work even then. Can't really ambush if half your party's useless against him and the other half doesn't do terribly well either.

Whoa! this is a great setup for the Neutralize Potion from Elan's development :)

PRESERVE THE (HI)STORY

Assuming Serini doesn't KO him as well. With her Sneak Attack damage, plus her poisons, she could easily take out half the Order with a bolt each and that's not even counting magic items.

But otherwise yes, I do hope that happens.

elros

2021-03-17, 08:05 AM

Theory: Serini will subdue the Order, but the IFCC will pull Vaarsuvius away before Serini can capture them. Hilarity ensues as the Order tries to explain to Serini exactly why V disappeared.
Didn't V's body remain where it was (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html), and only his soul was transported to the lower planes?

Blue Dragon

2021-03-17, 08:06 AM

Epic Rogue is epic. Looking forward the next comic, as usual.

factotum

2021-03-17, 08:06 AM

Oh, the high-jinks that ensue when people act on incomplete information...

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 08:07 AM

Didn't V's body remain where it was (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html), and only his soul was transported to the lower planes?

It'll prevent Serini from turning V's lungs into popped balloons, at least. Which, considering her Sneak Attack damage, is entirely possible with just one attack.

arimareiji

2021-03-17, 08:10 AM

In fairness to the Order (and therefore to The Giant), they are not planning to do that.
Roy's plan is to stop Xykon before either group find the Gate (and he intends to delibrately not look for it), per 1224 (panels 1, 2, 3) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1224.html).
Absolutely true, and thank you for this callout. I strongly suspected it but wasn't sure.

I definitely could have worded the last post better -- I was trying to draw a distinction between "heroes" usually bollocksing up this trope (yay Hollywood), and the Order (at least this time around*).

The problem is that Serini has good reason to think the Order will repeat history. She overheard the return-call of their Sending to the paladins, and immediately after they started talking about poking around to find the gate.

* - again, viz. Dorukan's gate (which Elan destroyed for lulz to boot, but that's another gripe)

KorvinStarmast

2021-03-17, 08:11 AM

Theory: Serini will subdue the Order, but the IFCC will pull Vaarsuvius away before Serini can capture them. Hilarity ensues as the Order tries to explain to Serini exactly why V disappeared. Here's hoping, but I don't think Rich is going to use IFCC pulling V down as comic relief.

Third, Serini might be the one creature that could convince Redcloak to work with the gods. She understands the plight of monsters in this world, and has the charisma to make a convincing argument to him. Plus, she is stealthy enough to be able to get him without Xykon finding out.
Nice call.
I don't think Serini is an antagonist, but merely another player in a complex game where no one actually knows what is going on. Given that the IFCC hasn't turned over any of their cards yet, yep.

Ghosty

2021-03-17, 08:12 AM

O-Chul did make the choice to destroy the Gate. He even openly admitted that to Hinjo. As you note, he didn't do it solely because Xykon paralyzed him, but he absolutely 100% would have. That holds whether she saw the throne room or not, do it doesn't give us any clarity Into what exactly she knows.

"Of course you had another choice!" strikes me as something that someone would say, if they really thought it was O-Chul who had swung the blade, and was really PO'd about it. Not someone who knew another person had stepped in and actually done it. Yeah, there's that, "at the time I made that decision," line from O-Chul. Still not buying it. I think she really thinks he did it.

There's real anger and exasperation in that line, and that statement, delivered like she did, fits with what Serini knows and has experienced, working with her party's Paladin for such a long time. It's a nifty piece of writing.

RMS Oceanic

2021-03-17, 08:13 AM

Didn't V's body remain where it was (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html), and only his soul was transported to the lower planes?

Maybe, if they still want the gate discovered and destroyed, they'll time taking V's soul at just the right moment so to Serini it looks like she's tranq'd them. And then as soon as she gets the rest of the order V returns, and politely asks what the heck she's doing.

Rinazina

2021-03-17, 08:14 AM

It'll prevent Serini from turning V's lungs into popped balloons, at least. Which, considering her Sneak Attack damage, is entirely possible with just one attack.

good point! and I bet this is the time they might expend the 3 minutes timeout, not the twenty-something

edit: also they see invisible at the TV, so the timeout can be conveniently timed ;)

Shining Wrath

2021-03-17, 08:14 AM

Serini evidently doesn't know about TDO's / Redcloak's plan to use the Gate as a weapon. She thinks she knows all the details, but she's missing that key piece. The Gods will remake the world rather than let the Gate be moved the their planes.

It will be up to Durkon to persuade her - and he's going to make his saving throw against poison, because Dwarf Cleric. This will be interesting.

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 08:17 AM

"Of course you had another choice!" strikes me as something that someone would say, if they really thought it was O-Chul who had swung the blade, and was really PO'd about it. Not someone who knew another person had stepped in and actually done it. Yeah, there's that, "at the time I made that decision," line from O-Chul. Still not buying it. I think she really thinks he did it.

There's real anger and exasperation in that line, and that statement, delivered like she did, fits with what Serini knows and has experienced, working with her party's Paladin for such a long time. It's a nifty piece of writing.

O-Chul would have done it himself, so I don't think it actually matters much at this point. It's true that the Order + the Guard blew some of their chances, but not all of that was really their fault(Soon's and Lirian's were arguably outside parties), but there isn't that big of a difference... especially not to Serini.

Ghosty

2021-03-17, 08:20 AM

Theory: Serini will subdue the Order, but the IFCC will pull Vaarsuvius away before Serini can capture them. Hilarity ensues as the Order tries to explain to Serini exactly why V disappeared.

That would be funny.

"What happened? Oh, some Emissaries from the Lower Planes took our wizard away for awhile."
"No big deal, s/he rented hir soul to them for a few hours."
"So s/he could murder a quarter of all Black Dragon-kind. WAIT! WAIT! STOP!!!!"

The MunchKING

2021-03-17, 08:21 AM

Theory: Serini will subdue the Order, but the IFCC will pull Vaarsuvius away before Serini can capture them. Hilarity ensues as the Order tries to explain to Serini exactly why V disappeared.

WHY Do people keep saying the IFCC will save V everytime V comes into danger? They never HAVE saved V, they said they can't/won't save V (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html), they don't even particularly want V to win.

It'll prevent Serini from turning V's lungs into popped balloons, at least. Which, considering her Sneak Attack damage, is entirely possible with just one attack.

She's got to be within 30 feet for that, and if she does that she's in range of everyone else's everything else.

Shining Wrath

2021-03-17, 08:23 AM

Well, it's going to be an intersting ambush, isn't it.

I wonder what her goggles are for...

My guess is See Invisible. She knows she's going up against high level casters.

Personally I think that Xykon is too strong for the Order and there's no chance without ridiculous amounts of author fiat(granted, this is a comic and not an actual game), or my personal headcanon of "Roy bullrushes him through the Gate and the Snarl eats him".

Also I know that Serini probably won't try to kill them, but my point is that an epic level Rogue could probably KO Vaarsuvius with just one crossbow bolt if she got a Sneak Attack in, and quite possibly Elan and Haley as well. And that's before magic items and poison.

Based on a whole lot of foreshadowing, the MitD switches sides and equalizes things. We know that Xykon believes MitD can defeat Redcloak casually. That's pretty damn strong.

arimareiji

2021-03-17, 08:26 AM

Well, I hope people stop saying that Serini is going to be the mysterious ally now.
Not a certainty, but for some reason "I get ta tell him!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0244.html) comes to mind. (^_^)°

What seems more likely for the Giant to do: Give the comic a tragic end, wherein after she gets the drop on them
1) she succeeds and the world's last hope for ending the cycle dies, or
2) she almost succeeds and the rightly-panicked Order kills one of the Scribblers (who had every reason to believe she was saving the world without hurting the well-intentioned bunglers who had already destroyed two gates)
-- all due to a gross misunderstanding, based on a combination of their own actions and O-Chul's unfortunate word choice)?

Or come up with a way that they get to explain things, and they work together?

I thought that would be a link to an Elan moment.
Technically, it included an oblique reference to his most spectacular Elan moment (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html). (^_~)

Ghosty

2021-03-17, 08:28 AM

O-Chul would have done it himself, so I don't think it actually matters much at this point. It's true that the Order + the Guard blew some of their chances, but not all of that was really their fault(Soon's and Lirian's were arguably outside parties), but there isn't that big of a difference... especially not to Serini.

Well yeah, but I'm not mentioning it to show who actually broke the Gate, or who wanted to, but to point out that bit of dialogue might show what exactly Serini knows about that incident. And thereby give us some clues about what else she could know and doesn't know.

Peeping in on the shielded throne room is quite a feat, and leads to questions like, did she have similar setups for the other Gates? Scrying on O-Chul months later, Cloister math aside, is a bit easier, and suggests she might not be omniscient when it comes to the Gates being destroyed.

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 08:29 AM

My guess is See Invisible. She knows she's going up against high level casters.

Or True Seeing. There's a couple of equivalent items for that, and at her level that's not even really expensive.

Based on a whole lot of foreshadowing, the MitD switches sides and equalizes things. We know that Xykon believes MitD can defeat Redcloak casually. That's pretty damn strong.

Possibly, yes. But the Order alone has very little chance indeed.

Ghosty

2021-03-17, 08:32 AM

My guess is See Invisible. She knows she's going up against high level casters.

Based on a whole lot of foreshadowing, the MitD switches sides and equalizes things. We know that Xykon believes MitD can defeat Redcloak casually. That's pretty damn strong.

True Seeing---reading that she's going to take down the Order, I was already wistful for Tarquin's Ring with it. Knocks down any illusion funny business from the start.

I'll be disappointed if the MITD doesn't flip sides by the end of the tale.

SlashDash

2021-03-17, 08:33 AM

Interesting that so far, it seems Serini is shown by herself. If she was the green bubble at the end of the last book, where is the orange bubble?
Can't help but think that Orange will be used for some twist when they show what exactly they are

Robots

2021-03-17, 08:34 AM

Update!

...Uh oh. This does not look good for our heroes.

So this is what Serini's planning. Interesting.

Can't wait for the next comic.

KorvinStarmast

2021-03-17, 08:35 AM

2) she almost succeeds and the rightly-panicked Order kills one of the Scribblers Belkar kills her is my guess. He doesn't need to remember anything to simply be a murdering psycho, and he has already pointed out that martials know how to handle rogues (glorified pick pockets) in melee combat (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html). We may see another example of Belkar using his Barbarian rage feature during such a combat.

link3710

2021-03-17, 08:35 AM

Well yes, sure. But I'm still not sure if they can beat him. He's completely immune to like half the party and the other half doesn't do that well against him.

And that's just Xykon; add in Redcloak and I'm not sure if their knowledge would even matter at that point.

I think you're underestimating the party. Roy has been running his build specifically to take down Xykon his whole life, and can do serious damage to undead now. V and Durkon are both powerful mages, even if neither is enough to take him down one on one. Elan will be full support in the fight, healing and buffing everyone. Hayley's picked up a bunch of potions and other items in preparation. I'd expect she has some sort of plan on how to deal damage to him.

The only odd man out is Belkar... But quite frankly, I expect that he's going to change the most by the time that conflict occurs. Maybe he's going to be riding in on a full sized t-rex, who knows?

Windscion

2021-03-17, 08:39 AM

Seeing Serini's attitude toward "monster" races makes it more likely that the other invisible voice was, in fact, some type of "monster."

If she does talk to Roy and Durkon, I think she'll see that they can cooperate. Roy (per Origin of PCs) isn't bigoted against ostracised races, and Durkon definitely doesn't want his kin to be subject to Hel. Of course, Serini might not believe that Xykon's victory would push the gods to destroy the world, nor condemn all those dwarven souls to Hel's domain. Especially since confirmation is only really available from the northern gods and/or the godsmoot. OTOH she knew Kraagor, and might be savvy about these issues.

Ganbatte

2021-03-17, 08:41 AM

*groan*

So after Girard, even Serini turns out an asshat who's gonna go against the Order aiding Xykon. Ugh.

hroþila

2021-03-17, 08:49 AM

I have no idea where all this talk about Serini not being rational comes from. Her actions make perfect sense with the info she has, even frankly even with the fino we have. Sure, she could team up with the Order and try to destroy Xykon before he even finds the Gate, but I imagine she has already assessed their abilities (she's presumably been getting V's Sendings, she knows about the Order and could have been scrying on them for a while). If she has concluded that they are no match for Xykon even with her help (which, let's be honest, is a perfectly rational conclusion on paper), then it makes sense to get them out of the way just in case they screw things up and put existence itself at risk.

Dragonus45

2021-03-17, 08:55 AM

Ahhhhhhhhhh, Serini is just kinda the worst I get it now. Can't wait to watch her go take a swing at the order, waste all the buffs and prep they have done for Xykon, and then ruin everything.

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 08:55 AM

I think you're underestimating the party. Roy has been running his build specifically to take down Xykon his whole life, and can do serious damage to undead now. V and Durkon are both powerful mages, even if neither is enough to take him down one on one. Elan will be full support in the fight, healing and buffing everyone. Hayley's picked up a bunch of potions and other items in preparation. I'd expect she has some sort of plan on how to deal damage to him.

The only odd man out is Belkar... But quite frankly, I expect that he's going to change the most by the time that conflict occurs. Maybe he's going to be riding in on a full sized t-rex, who knows?

Why yes, let's see what they can do, shall we?

Roy is not exactly helpless, but even Durkula managed to make his Concentration check against the Spellsplinter Maneuver - and remember, undead use their Charisma score for Concentration. And guess what stat Xykon's likely pumped into the lower stratospheres? Remember that while Roy can probably do some damage, he can't actually bypass that DR 15/bludgeoning and magic.
Durkon might do a bit better... if he can hit Xykon. Except he's got about half the character levels Xykon has and Xykon has both an item that provides a deflection bonus to AC and can cast Epic Mage Armor. Combine that with the natural armor bonus liches get and well... And his casting's also limited; dying twice means he's lost his 8ths.
Vaarsuvius' spells actually can't do much against Xykon. The Hand series won't work due to the Boots of Freedom of Movement. He's immune to fire, cold, and electricity, so most blasting's out of the question too. Sunburst might work if V's learned it, but how many of those would V be able to prepare?
Elan can buff. And that's it. And judging by how he used Heroism on Haley, I'm not sure if he plans to use bardic music.
Belkar has trouble scratching Xykon, due to the aforementioned DR, and his animal companions likely do even less.
Haley: HAHAHAHAHA yeah no. Serini doesn't think she stands a chance, why would Haley? There are precious few spells that let a rogue do anything to undead, and none of them really work on wands or potions.

I mean I guess Roy and Durkon could try tackling Xykon while the others pin down Redcloak, but Redcloak's not much easier to hold down due to being a cleric with 9ths and they need him alive to break the cycle.

CyanWhisp

2021-03-17, 08:56 AM

That's one thing that's always put sand in my knickers about heroes invoking the trope "We have to beat the bad guy to the MacGuffin just in the nick of time!".

Except in this case, the Order's goal is to destroy Xykon before he finds the gate, not to get to the gate first. The had the perfect opportunity to find the gate when the stumbled across the secret tunnel, yet they decided to use it to set up an ambush instead.

Kurald Galain

2021-03-17, 08:57 AM

Serini's far, far too strong for the Order to even have a chance; she could probably kill half the Order in the surprise round!
Why would that be true?

I know that "going epic" sounds pretty, well, epic; but the reality is that there is no huge power boost between level 20 (not epic) and level 21 (epic); except the Epic Spellcasting feat.

Serini is level 21-ish; the Order is around level 15. Yes, that's a tough battle, but on the other hand it is seven against one. The order certainly has a decent chance in fighting her.

Wraithfighter

2021-03-17, 08:58 AM

And Serini votes for Safety over Freedom.

Rather unexpected on a Chaotic character, but people tend to go that way as they grew older.

This.

I get what Serini's saying, but she's making a very, very critical assumption here: That Xykon with control over the gates, no matter how nasty a leader they'll end up being, is preferable to the risk of the world being destroyed.

Leaving aside the huuuuuuuuugely problematic aspects of "oh, it'll be fine, eventually someone will topple the big bad!", in this case we know that she's 100% wrong.

Because its not Xykon that would have control over the Gate. It'd be Redcloak (...with an assumption that Redcloak's deception of Xykon is still intact). And Redcloak's plan is basically asking, nay, begging for the gods to unmake the world out of simple self-defense.

To paraphrase the apocryphal Winston Churchill, Serini has been presented with a choice between helping Xykon conquer the world or risking its destruction. She has chosen to help Xykon, and thus is working to ensure its destruction.

And sure, there's a question about how much she should be expected to know about all of this. But when your best plan is currently "actively help the megalomaniacal maniac conquer the world and subjugate as many people as possible", I kinda expect you to be a bit more welcoming of new facts to prove you wrong, otherwise you're being a crazed out dingbat.

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 09:00 AM

hamishspence

2021-03-17, 09:03 AM

I don't think she plans on helping Xykon, in the "hand the gate over to him" sense - just keep the Order from arriving at the gate and destroying it.

B. Pseudonym

2021-03-17, 09:08 AM

Looking forward to this fight scene.

Hopefully, she'll change her tune in a hurry when Durkon or whoever explains about the ritual. Durkon knows about the ritual, right? It's been a while since I read his chat with Thor.

She also mentioned being sympathetic to kobolds and orcs and stuff, and she's visibly part troll... what do you suppose the odds are that she becomes important to negotiations with Redcloak?

Wraithfighter

2021-03-17, 09:09 AM

I have a question though: If she thinks she can kidnap the whole Order and mindwipe them, why hasn't she done the same to say, Redcloak? Alone he can't be as dangerous as the Order and that'd actually ruin Xykon's plan.

Probably because she dismisses him as some flunky, not a real threat, hell doesn't his whole thing about Goblins being victimized by the PC races have a point to it, given how she views the trolls?

She almost certainly doesn't know what Redcloak's true goals are, that he's the one with the real power, and that his plan would likely spur the pantheons to unmake the world ASAP to stop him.

You have to keep in mind that if there's anyone better at getting people to underestimate them than Xykon, it's Redcloak. And, well, Serini got half her body burned off by Xykon in a single round and then left for dead. She might just have a bit of a complex about it.

arimareiji

2021-03-17, 09:12 AM

Random thought: What would the rogue equivalent of "caster fight" be, a "sneak-out"?

Whoa! this is a great setup for the Neutralize Potion from Elan's development :)

PRESERVE THE (HI)STORY
Interesting point... what does happen when Neutralize Poison interacts with an unwanted potion that doesn't act as a poison in the strict sense (causes potentially-lethal biological pathology)?

Seeing Serini's attitude toward "monster" races makes it more likely that the other invisible voice was, in fact, some type of "monster."

If she does talk to Roy and Durkon, I think she'll see that they can cooperate. Roy (per Origin of PCs) isn't bigoted against ostracised races, and Durkon definitely doesn't want his kin to be subject to Hel. Of course, Serini might not believe that Xykon's victory would push the gods to destroy the world, nor condemn all those dwarven souls to Hel's domain. Especially since confirmation is only really available from the northern gods and/or the godsmoot. OTOH she knew Kraagor, and might be savvy about these issues.
You're right, she doesn't have much if any reason to take Durkon's word for it. But you have me thinking back to the hypothesis that she was mind-reading, and steering the conversation so that O-Chul's surface thoughts exposed the events in the throne room. If she has that ability (I still like "ESP potion"), she doesn't have to take his word for it.

I have no idea where all this talk about Serini not being rational comes from.
Confirmation bias, in this case the "b**** eating crackers like she owns the place" variety, is very human.

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 09:12 AM

Probably because she dismisses him as some flunky, not a real threat, hell doesn't his whole thing about Goblins being victimized by the PC races have a point to it, given how she views the trolls?

She almost certainly doesn't know what Redcloak's true goals are, that he's the one with the real power, and that his plan would likely spur the pantheons to unmake the world ASAP to stop him.

You have to keep in mind that if there's anyone better at getting people to underestimate them than Xykon, it's Redcloak. And, well, Serini got half her body burned off by Xykon in a single round and then left for dead. She might just have a bit of a complex about it.

Methinks "trauma" would be the right word, but yeah.

Also yes, I do wonder how her opinion would change if she actually listened to the Order - assuming they ever get a chance.

Which, considering they're going to get jumped on by an epic rogue, is doubtful.

Kurald Galain

2021-03-17, 09:14 AM

Not when half the party's KOed or dead in the surprise round and lose initiative in the second. In a straight fight yes, but Serini isn't exactly interested in one is she?
Serini has absolutely no way to KO half the party in a surprise round.

She's also not likely to win initiative against everyone, especially against high-dex characters like Haley.

Riftwolf

2021-03-17, 09:16 AM

pendell

2021-03-17, 09:16 AM

Nope. Her logic is pretty sound based on the following assumption: existing, with a complete {censored} ruling the world (before someone topples him, which she knows is possible given the existence of adventurers) beats not existing. There are a variety of RL parallels that I'll not introduce due to forum rules but suffice to say that the choices, as she sees it, are not binary: there is a third, fourth, or even fifth option. (We could toss in the old 'where there's life there's hope' cliche, but I'm not sure that she thinks along those lines).

But are those third, fourth and fifth option available when Paladins are on the case? Presumably Serina knew Soon; she may be concerned that someone who followed those teachings would sooner destroy the world than allow it to be ruled by someone like Xykon. 'Dying with honor', and all that rubbish. A choice all very well for them, but not a choice they have any right to make for the rest of the world.

Serina can very clearly see the pattern: Four times Xykon has attacked a gate, four times a gate has been destroyed. They say that doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is the definition of insanity; why should she expect the heroes to behave differently this time? Expect enough to warrant gambling a world that fifth time's the charm?

Even if the heroes themselves have no intention of destroying the gate, the gate could still get destroyed accidentally as people fight over it.

Serini's response is remarkable, given Xykon tried to kill her from ambush when she had done him no harm, leaving her permanently disfigured. Most people would feel a bit of resentment towards their would-be murderer. But she's willing to pave his way to world domination if that's what keeps the world alive and intact long enough for him to be overthrown.

Even so, she's still wrong because she doesn't understand that Xykon is only a pawn, a dupe. More than likely allowing the ritual to be completed will result in the world's destruction in any event, whether because he unleashes the snarl on the gods, or the gods unmake the world to save it from the Snarl. So her logic is reasonable, given what she knows, but she's an antagonist and obstacle in the story because her information is not complete.

A very interesting five-sided (Serini, The OOTS, Xykon, Redcloak, the Fiends who have Vaarsuvius) conflict is shaping up!

As towards her sanity, I don't feel qualified to diagnose it in a stick figure, but from a layperson's perspective her actions appear rational, given the information she has.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Dragonus45

2021-03-17, 09:24 AM

Not when half the party's KOed or dead in the surprise round and lose initiative in the second. In a straight fight yes, but Serini isn't exactly interested in one is she?

Honestly I'm not sure she could manage half the order, she is only getting so many swings and it's likely the people most dangerous to her, angry melee beat sticks, will still be up and ready to tango. At least by the pure math logic of 3.5 Narrative logic might dictate otherwise in several directions.

KorvinStarmast

2021-03-17, 09:25 AM

So after Girard, even Serini turns out an asshat who's gonna go against the Order aiding Xykon. Ugh. Perhaps the Scribbles ought to have been called "The Order of the Asshats" but maybe that doesn't fit well enough. :smallyuk:

Can't wait to watch her go take a swing at the order, waste all the buffs and prep they have done for Xykon, and then ruin everything. Yep. Chaotic characters have a tendency to do that. Beginning with Elan at Dorukan's gate ...
In a straight fight yes, but Serini isn't exactly interested in one is she? No, she isn't. +1. :smallsmile: Rogue.
She also mentioned being sympathetic to kobolds and orcs and stuff, and she's visibly part troll... what do you suppose the odds are that she becomes important to negotiations with Redcloak? If she can survive and actually talk to the Order, that's a neat angle. It's also one I'd like to see developed more.
She almost certainly doesn't know what Redcloak's true goals are, that he's the one with the real power, and that his plan would likely spur the pantheons to unmake the world ASAP to stop him. And he's wearing an artifact.

You have to keep in mind that if there's anyone better at getting people to underestimate them than Xykon, it's Redcloak. If she wants revenge on Xykon, she's got the Order right there to handle him ... but for the moment she's not seeing that as her objective. She can live with that (censored) as long as she remains alive. That's her PoV, and it will take a substantial shock to the system to shake her out of it. And I think that Belkar will provide it.

sillymel

2021-03-17, 09:31 AM

Logic seems perfectly sound to me. Not nice, or best case scenario, but sound.

To nitpick, while her reasoning might be valid, it most definitely is not “sound.” “Sound” would mean that she’s also reasoning from correct premises, and thus her conclusion would be correct as well (at least from I remember from the philosophy course in college), which it is not.

EDIT: Apply this to anyone else saying Serini’s logic is “sound” as well. It was not my intention to single out Peelee; that’s just the post I saw first.

BloodSquirrel

2021-03-17, 09:32 AM

While I wouldn't say that Serini is completely insane, she's far from being rational.

Even just taking into account what she knows (and, in fact, specifically taking into account what she doesn't), she's being wildly optimistic regarding Xykon:

What if he is looking to blow up the world instead of ruling it? She doesn't know what deals with what infernal beings he may have, or what his motives really are. We, the readers, know this, but she's just kind of presuming. But the fact that he's palling around with the high priest of an evil god should probably give her a little bit of pause here.

What if he does it accidentally? She doesn't know about the ritual, so as far as she knows he might be rolling his own magical spell for controlling it, and it may well blow up in his face. Especially if he starts unleashing it on people. What if that part doesn't work so well and it gets out of control?

Why is she so sure somebody will eventually take him down? He's already damned powerful, and it's not like having the resources available from ruling the world will make him more vulnerable. With control of the Snarl, it's entirely possible that he'll be able to kill every adventurer who is/gets past level 15 on a routine basis just to prevent there from being any more threats to him.

Or what if his rule really is worse than not existing? Hell, this is D&D- what if his influence over the world corrupts it enough to damn millions of souls to the Abyss? What about all of those dwarf souls that will be going to Hel because Xykon decides to starve half their population to death?

And why does she think that having a murderous Lich in charge is going to make it better for monster races? Xykon literally thinks watching goblins die is good comedy.

And, just in general, there's the whole "unkown unkowns" thing. When you're talking about something as volatile as letting an evil Lich get his hands on a superweapon, you have to start thinking about some of those outside possibilities and random screw-ups that happen so often in history. She doesn't know that the gods are on the edge of blowing up the world, but that's the kind of thing that she should be stopping to consider might happen. Not that specifically, but a general consideration for "Really important **** that I might not know".

She is way, way to cavalier about letting Xykon get his hands on a gate. I can see making it as a tough call when it's the last one remaining, but letting him have Dorukan's gate? Or Soon's?

Serini's feeling a little like Therkla part 2 here: she's wildly underestimating how destructive evil actually is, wildly overestimating the ability of the world to "just get along", and is about to get in a world of hurt for it.

WindStruck

2021-03-17, 09:34 AM

hroþila

2021-03-17, 09:38 AM

Psyren

2021-03-17, 09:40 AM

Do we have any idea who the orange voice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) is? I'm guessing that individual might still be in the room with them.

Anyway, Serini's logic is sound, but still flawed.

- Xykon emerging victorious will likely result in the world being reset anyway, because may of the gods who voted "no" the first time will switch to "yes" if it means avoiding the Dark One holding them hostage in their own domains and threatening the souls they have there.

- Even if the Dark One acts instantly and somehow prevents the other gods from resetting the planet, Serini's premise that "the world will survive a few years of a villain calling the shots before being toppled by someone" feels overly optimistic given Xykon's immortality and depravity. It's a very thin reed to weigh against so many innocent lives being tormented or snuffed out during his reign.

- None of her plan accounts for the IFCC, who appear to also want the gates, and whose plans are likely to be significantly longer-term and evil than Xykon's. I suspect they will end up as the true villains in the end, that even the Dark One will agree to oppose.

Fyraltari

2021-03-17, 09:41 AM

Redcloak's the one with the real power
He's not. That what he tells himself so he can go to sleep. When the person you're "in control of" can decide how many eyes you have, you don't control ****.

Random thought: What would the rogue equivalent of "caster fight" be, a "sneak-out"?
A stealth-up?

EmperorSarda

2021-03-17, 09:42 AM

That would be funny.

"What happened? Oh, some Emissaries from the Lower Planes took our wizard away for awhile."
"No big deal, s/he rented hir soul to them for a few hours."
"So s/he could murder a quarter of all Black Dragon-kind. WAIT! WAIT! STOP!!!!"

It was only 20 minutes.

arimareiji

2021-03-17, 09:42 AM

If the gate is destroyed, the world ends. Serini knows this.

If Xykon gets control of the gate, there's a fair chance the gods will have to unmake the world once the dark one uses it as leverage. Or maybe preemptively? I can't remember if any other gods are actually aware of the Dark One's Plan. But Serini does not know this. The paladins don't know this.

All she knows is that these paladins and the gaggle of mook adventurers trying to stop Xykon probably can't actually beat him. And she doesn't want to risk it.

I can only hope some members of the order can fill her in on the situation with the gods.
The Order's actual plan is to take out Xykon and not weaken the gate's defenses. I suspect Serini would happily give her blessing, as long as they stay the hell away from the gate and don't come up with any ingenious plans like "Ambush him from inside of the real passageway to the gate, likely cluing him in to the trap he's repeatedly fallen for."

Unfortunately what she's seen is two paladins giving their unseen allies a status update via return-Sending (without hearing the original Sending), and then deciding to start trying to find the gate. She has no reason to doubt those were their instructions.

But there's still good opportunity for the misunderstanding to be cleared up.

EmperorSarda

2021-03-17, 09:44 AM

I wonder what her goggles are for...

True sight?

Psyren

2021-03-17, 09:45 AM

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 09:48 AM

Serini has absolutely no way to KO half the party in a surprise round.

She's also not likely to win initiative against everyone, especially against high-dex characters like Haley.

Here's an example:

Surprise round: she uses Sneak Attack to shoot Haley, Vaarsuvius, and Elan(and maybe Belkar if she has Haste, I guess). She has 11d6 or higher sneak attack, plus any bonus from magical items and such, and they're also poisoned.

Okay, now that I think about it I guess one bolt each is a bit overshooting. V's almost certainly going down though, and maybe another one of the Order.

And considering that Serini has no intentions of having a fair fight, the Order's going to be at a severe disadvantage.

JSSheridan

2021-03-17, 09:51 AM

Thanks Giant!

runeghost

2021-03-17, 09:52 AM

And she's wrong in considering that a viable option. Giving the Gate to Redcloak is one thing (and I still believe it could work), but if Serini knows what Xykon thinks he needs a Gate for, she is delusional. Xykon thinks that the Ritual will allow him to release the Snarl under controlled circumstances, which even if it worked like that would cause immense collateral damage (because unlike the gods, most inhabitants of the Sticverse do not know about the Snarl, so Xykon would have to demonstrate what it can do at least once for his scheme to work), including the erasure of a vast number of living creatures from existence forever. Also, if he could indeed gain control of the snarl, there would be no toppling him. I mean, a bunch of misfits stopping a lich is one thing; a bunch of misfits fighting an abomination that kills gods and eats worlds is another.

You've brought up something I've been wondering about for a while. Does Xykon honestly think that the Ritual will allow him to control the Snarl?

Sure, Redcloak thinks he's got Xykon fooled and dancing to his tune. But those who have read Start of Darkness and watched Right-eye's end at Redcloak's hands, and Xykon's subsequent reveal that he knew about it the whole time know that, like Shojo, Xykon is smarter than he looks. He's an epic-level Sorcerer who's been pursuing this Gate plan for a long time. Like Serini, he's almost certainly operating off incomplete information. But I will be shocked if it doesn't turn out that he's both expecting and prepared for a degree of duplicity on Redcloak's part, possibly including knowing the true nature of the Plan (and having his own brutally straightforward counter-plan ready to go).

hroþila

2021-03-17, 09:52 AM

Not equivalent, but Loki's statement (which went unrefuted by the other gods) shows they believe that the final gate getting destroyed will give the gods enough time to enact the latter before the former can take place. This renders the former mostly moot as a potential outcome.
The other gods didn't have the floor so they had no chance to refute it, the only one who spoke after Loki was Hel, who had other things to talk about. And while she didn't refute Loki at the Godsmoot, what she said to him later (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1176.html) ("Any day now, all your precious swindlers and cutthroats will be wiped out, just like they always are. Maybe I get nothing, but you will get not one soul more than me!") suggests that the risk of the Snarl getting out is very, very real, and perhaps even the most likely outcome of an end of the world scenario.

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 09:54 AM

You've brought up something I've been wondering about for a while. Does Xykon honestly think that the Ritual will allow him to control the Snarl?

Sure, Redcloak thinks he's got Xykon fooled and dancing to his tune. But those who have read Start of Darkness and watched Right-eye's end at Redcloak's hands, and Xykon's subsequent reveal that he knew about it the whole time know that, like Shojo, Xykon is smarter than he looks. He's an epic-level Sorcerer who's been pursuing this Gate plan for a long time. Like Serini, he's almost certainly operating off incomplete information. But I will be shocked if it doesn't turn out that he's both expecting and prepared for a degree of duplicity on Redcloak's part, possibly including knowing the true nature of the Plan (and having his own brutally straightforward counter-plan ready to go).

That of course raises the question of "why would Xykon keep humoring Redcloak up until now instead of killing him and the rest of the goblins".

BloodSquirrel

2021-03-17, 10:00 AM

That of course raises the question of "why would Xykon keep humoring Redcloak up until now instead of killing him and the rest of the goblins".

I don't think he knows for sure, and since he has no other overarching goal or objective, it sort of makes sense for him to play out the game and see where it goes. He's actually getting XP fighting those monsters for the moment, which is rare for him, so he's happy for now either way.

And, honestly, it seems totally in style for Xykon to wait until they find the gate and get ready to start the ritual to drop what he knows on Redcloak- at the moment when it will most crush him. Hell, I can see Xykon casting 90% of the ritual and stopping right before it's complete. It would be a hell of a **** move.

dancrilis

2021-03-17, 10:03 AM

That of course raises the question of "why would Xykon keep humoring Redcloak up until now instead of killing him and the rest of the goblins".

My guess is he wants to kill The Dark One and is planning to co-opt the ritual to do that.

Psyren

2021-03-17, 10:04 AM

The other gods didn't have the floor so they had no chance to refute it, the only one who spoke after Loki was Hel, who had other things to talk about. And while she didn't refute Loki at the Godsmoot, what she said to him later (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1176.html) ("Any day now, all your precious swindlers and cutthroats will be wiped out, just like they always are. Maybe I get nothing, but you will get not one soul more than me!") suggests that the risk of the Snarl getting out is very, very real, and perhaps even the most likely outcome of an end of the world scenario.

I looked back and you're right, the Snarl annihilating all the souls before they can be cashed out is a possibility. But it's not necessarily one that matters in the cosmic scheme. Thor certainly doesn't seem to make much distinction (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html) between the two - regardless of which side gets to the souls first, the gods themselves will survive and the cycle will continue.

With that said, I wouldn't take Hel's bitter proclamation at the end of her hail-mary as more authoritative on the subject than Loki's formal thesis statement during the godsmoot itself.

What makes this cycle different is the Dark One, and even he is not a completely unique circumstance - they've had new gods appear before. While they may be unclear on the set of circumstances that led to a new quiddity surfacing, if it happened once it can do so again. (This is in fact Sunna's exact argument in the following strip.)

Ionathus

2021-03-17, 10:05 AM

I really, really like this development.

As others have said, Serini's logic is sound given the incomplete information she's working with. She doesn't seem to know about TDO's plan to hold the gods hostage, or the Godsmoot, but then again I appreciate that she doesn't!

There's something to be said for having a character who just represents the viewpoint of "the rest of the world," who weren't privy to the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard or The Dark One's plan, straight from his High Priest. Civilization is not one big happy family, and it's very interesting to see a much more Rogue-ish mentality of "know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em."

That she is now going to go after the Order, to prevent a conflict that would destroy the world (thereby increasing the chances it will be ruled by a villain for awhile), is a fantastic twist on the story. I of course don't agree with her, and might not even if I had her information, but I can absolutely see where she's coming from.

Other things I loved about this strip:
Serini's badass Rambo gear, especially the 3D goggles. Used for detecting illusions? Darkvision? Just to complete the "zany madcap halfling Home Alone rogue" schtick?

"You can't keep knocking over the game board whenever your side starts losing!"

Another character explicitly stating that monstrous races are getting the short end of the stick. In particular I like that she calls out the status quo: to oppressors (and those who just passively benefit from oppression), "status quo" can seem like a self-evident good because that's what benefits them the most. What sort of monster would want to inconvenience everybody just because they claim to have it worse?

EDIT:

My guess is he wants to kill The Dark One and is planning to co-opt the ritual to do that.

I don't really see any motivation for Xykon to even care about TDO, much less want him to die. What would Xykon get out of that? Plus, it's been pretty thoroughly established that Xykon doesn't care about all the "thinky" bits of magic. He even asked Tsukiko to do his Ritual homework for him! I don't really see him getting book-smart enough to even understand that the Ritual doesn't do what he thinks it does...much less actively alter it...?

Xykon, as a character, isn't some Joker-level manipulative mastermind. Xykon is a power-hungry red dragon, much more interested in breathing fire and watching people quiver in fear at his power (while keeping 1 or 2 simple contingencies as insurance) than he is interested in scheming in the shadows and pulling puppet strings. Him devising a way to kill TDO for [reasons?] would be pretty far out of character.

HandofShadows

2021-03-17, 10:05 AM

Serini thinks she knows what is going on. But she doesn't know what she doesn't know and worse is failing to even CONSIDER that she doesn't know all the relevant facts.

Fyraltari

2021-03-17, 10:16 AM

A lot of people making a lot of assumptions about what Serini knows or doesn't know, about Xykon, abut Redcloak, about the gods, and judging her for making decisions based on incomplete information. We, the readers don't have complete informations either, we don't know what the IFCC's end goals are, we don't know the World-in-the-Rift is.

Please, consider that Serini might know more than she lets on. She might even know more than we do on certain things.

But I will be shocked if it doesn't turn out that he's both expecting and prepared for a degree of duplicity on Redcloak's
We know he is. He tasked Tsukiko with analyzing the Ritual, remember?

That of course raises the question of "why would Xykon keep humoring Redcloak up until now instead of killing him and the rest of the goblins".
The longer I think about it, the more I like the idea that Xykon doesn't even plan to cast the Ritual anymore and is just going through the motions because tormenting Redcloak is the best entertainment he's had in decades and the look on the goblin's face when Xykon refuses to enact the Plan and he realizes it was all pointless before the lich blows him to bit is going to be priceless.

Itrogash

2021-03-17, 10:19 AM

Here's an example:

Surprise round: she uses Sneak Attack to shoot Haley, Vaarsuvius, and Elan(and maybe Belkar if she has Haste, I guess). She has 11d6 or higher sneak attack, plus any bonus from magical items and such, and they're also poisoned.

Okay, now that I think about it I guess one bolt each is a bit overshooting. V's almost certainly going down though, and maybe another one of the Order.

And considering that Serini has no intentions of having a fair fight, the Order's going to be at a severe disadvantage.

What makes you so sure she's going to get a Surprise Round? I know she's an epic level Rogue and probably has all ranks in Sneak skill but on the other hand we've been shown in strip 1219 that Haley could spot traps that Serini ser. I feel like this was shown to show that Haley has maxed Spot skill. I get the feeling this strip could be setting up a Chekhov's gun which could fire off when Serini tries to get a drop on them. After all, Haley showed she can spot traps set by high level Rogue. It's not that improbable she could spot the very same Rogue.

bguy

2021-03-17, 10:20 AM

Why yes, let's see what they can do, shall we?

Vaarsuvius' spells actually can't do much against Xykon. The Hand series won't work due to the Boots of Freedom of Movement. He's immune to fire, cold, and electricity, so most blasting's out of the question too. Sunburst might work if V's learned it, but how many of those would V be able to prepare?

What about Disintegrate? It could do significant damage to Xykon on a successful hit (it should average about 100 HPs in damage) and it targets Xykon's weakest save. And yes it requires V to make a successful attack roll, but V can cancel out the bonus from Xykon's Epic Mage Armor with True Strike. And since like you said most of V's spells won't work on Xykon, there's really no reason for V not to load up her 5th level spell spots with Quickened True Strikes and her 6th level spell slots with Disintegrates, so V would be able to spam a lot of these at Xykon.

Belkar has trouble scratching Xykon, due to the aforementioned DR, and his animal companions likely do even less.
Haley: HAHAHAHAHA yeah no. Serini doesn't think she stands a chance, why would Haley? There are precious few spells that let a rogue do anything to undead, and none of them really work on wands or potions.

Agreed that Belkar and Haley probably wouldn't do much good against Xykon, but they can neutralize Oona and Greyview which is hardly unimportant.

I mean I guess Roy and Durkon could try tackling Xykon while the others pin down Redcloak, but Redcloak's not much easier to hold down due to being a cleric with 9ths and they need him alive to break the cycle.

If the Order gets a surprise round, V can shut Redcloak down with Power Word Stun (a spell we know V has which would incapacitate Redcloak without killing him.) He won't stay stunned for too long, but if Haley grabs his holy symbol while he's stunned then that pretty much takes him out of the fight. (And with Redcloak neutralized in the first round that frees up V to then start blasting Xykon.)

Blue Dragon

2021-03-17, 10:20 AM

Well, I hope people stop saying that Serini is going to be the mysterious ally now.

So do I. Unlikely, though.

TRH

2021-03-17, 10:21 AM

The Order are level 16-ish. 11d6 might not even take down V, let alone the others. That's only 38 damage on average, it probably wouldn't have 1-shot them at the start of the story. Yes, she could be a threat with poison and the like, but that's not remotely enough DPS to wipe them in one hit apiece.

EmperorSarda

2021-03-17, 10:22 AM

That of course raises the question of "why would Xykon keep humoring Redcloak up until now instead of killing him and the rest of the goblins".

As others have said, Xykon doesn't know for sure. We know he doesn't trust Redcloak, otherwise why send Tsukiko to research the ritual? He knows what he doesn't know and knows he is operating on trust.

Dragonus45

2021-03-17, 10:22 AM

Yep. Chaotic characters have a tendency to do that. Beginning with Elan at Dorukan's gate ...

I'm not saying it isn't on brand. Just that it's a bit sad to see the last surviving member of the Order of the Scribble about to ruin everything on impulse and incomplete information, with a side of seriously unpleasant motivation involving the deaths of so so many people because what comes out the other end might look better.

Ionathus

2021-03-17, 10:23 AM

The longer I think about it, the more I like the idea that Xykon doesn't even plan to cast the Ritual anymore and is just going through the motions because tormenting Redcloak is the best entertainment he's had in decades and the look on the goblin's face when Xykon refuses to enact the Plan and he realizes it was all pointless before the lich blows him to bit is going to be priceless.

Eh, I'd bet against that. Xykon may be savvy, but he's really not a patient person. All of his plans and schemes and decision-making are about how he can amuse himself the most, in the moment. I wouldn't rule out him having a clue that things aren't 100% on the level with the Ritual, but I just don't buy that he's just waiting to Shaggy Dog Story (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShaggyDogStory) the main Villainous Plot of the comic. All that for a slightly-meaner-than-usual death for Redcloak? Doesn't seem like his style.

EDIT:

Serini thinks she knows what is going on. But she doesn't know what she doesn't know and worse is failing to even CONSIDER that she doesn't know all the relevant facts.

Why should she stop to consider it? She's an epic-level rogue who sealed away these gates in the first place. What could a bunch of mid-level nincompoops know about the situation that she doesn't? Nincompoops, I might add, who have successfully bungled 3 of the 5 gate defenses in the last 2 years?

That's not my personal opinion. But at a certain point, you can't expect the schoolteacher to stop teaching basic multiplication because one of her 3rd-graders is REALLY insistent that she's doing it wrong. Maybe she is, but the odds are slim-to-none, and it's rude to interrupt the teacher.

As others have said, Xykon doesn't know for sure. We know he doesn't trust Redcloak, otherwise why send Tsukiko to research the ritual? He knows what he doesn't know and knows he is operating on trust.

I always interpreted that as Xykon being too lazy to do the work himself. He wants to be ready when the time comes but he doesn't want to do his homework, so he asks Tsukiko to do it for him.

Ghosty

2021-03-17, 10:23 AM

I feel some people here are treating "the world ends when the Snarl unmakes every living being and then creation itself" and "the world ends as the gods demolish it, killing everyone in the process but keeping their souls intact" as equivalent. I see no evidence that Serini is doing the same.

Does Serini even know Option #2 on your list is a possibility? From what I know, all Serini knows what will happen if her Gate is destroyed, and the Snarl gets loose, is Option #1.

EDIT: For that matter, how does the timeline and the specifics for, "Gods Destroy The World," work? Can the Gods unmake the World, give the Snarl the finger, and build another World? If so, how long does that take? Do they need a Gate to still exist in order to do that, or can they do it in the interval between, 'last Gate gone/Snarl loose" and 'Snarl makes it up to Upper Planes, Deicide Ensues?' How long would it take a released Snarl to make it to the Upper Planes? Is it appreciably shortened if Team Evil moves the last Gate to, e.g., Asgard?

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 10:24 AM

Yeah, okay, but I'm still putting my quatloos on Serini not being stopped solely by how good a fight the Order put up.

mjasghar

2021-03-17, 10:26 AM

Maybe, if they still want the gate discovered and destroyed, they'll time taking V's soul at just the right moment so to Serini it looks like she's tranq'd them. And then as soon as she gets the rest of the order V returns, and politely asks what the heck she's doing.

The ifcc want to control the gate and send it to the upper planes, not destroy it.

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 10:27 AM

The ifcc want to control the gate and send it to the upper planes, not destroy it.

How do you know they want that?

I mean, that actually sounds plausible. But I'm not sure.

Nymrod

2021-03-17, 10:28 AM

Cool potion brewing skills grandma, good luck getting them past a Mind Blank.

As for Xykon ruling the world, he doesn't have the attention span required to rule the world. He will get a lot of people killed but at some point people of sufficient power and with enough information will gang up on him and he will get ****ed up. He lost against Lirian on the first attempt, only managed to win against Dorukan by claiming a unique advantage and completely lost against Soon. If any two of the Scribblers had faced Xykon and Redcloak together, they'd have won. Yeah Xykon will kill a lot of people given the chance but he'd never be able to "rule the world". Not to mention that the entire premise of ruling the world using those Gates makes no sense and the only reason Xykon has been fooled is that he probably has no ranks in Knowledge Arcana.

Xihirli

2021-03-17, 10:32 AM

That's one thing that's always put sand in my knickers about heroes invoking the trope "We have to beat the bad guy to the MacGuffin just in the nick of time!".

Unless the heroes have a solid plan for
~ destroying it (in this case, a Very Bad Idea™),
~ concealing it (it already is concealed, better than the Order can do),
~ or moving it (that's RC's plan, and he refuses to take Durkon's word for why it's a VBI)...
what the heck do they think getting there first will accomplish? Especially given that the genre-savvy (or those who have already been there, done that, like the order) can surmise the Bad Guys™ may very well be planning for just that to happen (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0054.html) so they can seize it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html).

Which makes Serini a very, very long way from "insane" to not blindly trust them given the extent of what she knows.

Well, let's look at their plans for Soon's and Girard's Gate.

Their plan was, in both cases, to ally with its current protectors to improve the defenses that already existed. This almost worked with Soon's Gate, and failed with Girard's gate because all of its protectors were killed. With Girard, Roy then decided to destroy the gate once their plan of conjuring some celestials to help guard the gate failed.

Looking at their behavior with Kraagor's Gate, neither the Paladins nor the Order have made any steps toward actually finding the Gate, only attempts at conversion or attrition of enemy forces. So its seems that the heroes agree with you.

Ionathus

2021-03-17, 10:34 AM

Does Serini even know Option #2 on your list is a possibility? From what I know, all Serini knows what will happen if her Gate is destroyed, and the Snarl gets loose, is Option #1.

EDIT: For that matter, how does the timeline and the specifics for, "Gods Destroy The World," work? Can the Gods unmake the World, give the Snarl the finger, and build another World? If so, how long does that take? Do they need a Gate to still exist in order to do that, or can they do it in the interval between, 'last Gate gone/Snarl loose" and 'Snarl makes it up to Upper Planes, Deicide Ensues?' How long would it take a released Snarl to make it to the Upper Planes? Is it appreciably shortened if Team Evil moves the last Gate to, e.g., Asgard?

I'd imagine for Serini, both Options are functionally identical. All the big theological & philosophical questions aren't worth beans if she wants to keep living in the here and now.

RE: your edit: pretty sure "the gods unmake the world right after the last gate blows" isn't on the table, because Loki said at the Godsmoot they'd have to agree to that plan...and the Godsmoot hasn't moved on from the actual vote to destroy the world NOW, so they can't propose further action items to vote on.

The ifcc want to control the gate and send it to the upper planes, not destroy it.

That's a theory, not a statement of fact. We still don't know their plans.

hroþila

2021-03-17, 10:37 AM

Does Serini even know Option #2 on your list is a possibility? From what I know, all Serini knows what will happen if her Gate is destroyed, and the Snarl gets loose, is Option #1.
#276 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

Shojo: Soon and his allies learned that the gods could remake the prison without the rifts... but to do so would require the raw threads of reality that were currently being used by the world.
Vaarsuvius: So they could fix it, if they let the entire world be undone again first.
Shojo: Right. They agreed it was best to not let things deteriorate to the point where the gods felt they had no choice but to destroy the world to rebuild the prison.
Serini knows the gods can destroy the world before the Snarl does. The language is a bit ambiguous, since "undone" could mean they thought the outcome of both options would be the same (ceasing to exist altogether), but that's not the only possible way to interpret it, and personally I don't think it's the most likely interpretation - I believe it merely refers to the physical world being destroyed, including bodies, but not souls.

dancrilis

2021-03-17, 10:38 AM

I don't really see any motivation for Xykon to even care about TDO, much less want him to die. What would Xykon get out of that?
Because killing a god is steak, rubbing it in the face of that god's high priest is gravy, doing it after that high priest faciliated you doing it is dessert and doing while that high priest thinks he was fooling you is sprinkles.

Plus, it's been pretty thoroughly established that Xykon doesn't care about all the "thinky" bits of magic. He even asked Tsukiko to do his Ritual homework for him! I don't really see him getting book-smart enough to even understand that the Ritual doesn't do what he thinks it does...much less actively alter it...?

You believe that the guy with epic levels of knowledge (arcane) and spellcraft and who researches custom spells is not up on the book-smarts bits of magic.

drazen

2021-03-17, 10:44 AM

While I am not sure if levels 13-16 are 'mid level' they are a far cry from epic.

Nitpick: V cast Telepathic Bond on six other individuals in addition to themself (five Order members, plus Minrah), plus Blackwing (a freebie, as I understand it). Someone said it's 3 levels/person for that spell. Assuming the caster doesn't count, V would need L18 casting to do that. With an Iuon Stone, that's L17, not 16.

I also thought Haley and Elan might combine to be more than 17+ by now.

Durkon and Roy probably lag the group by a fair bit due to their deaths and resurrections.

BloodSquirrel

2021-03-17, 10:45 AM

As for Xykon ruling the world, he doesn't have the attention span required to rule the world. He will get a lot of people killed but at some point people of sufficient power and with enough information will gang up on him and he will get ****ed up. He lost against Lirian on the first attempt, only managed to win against Dorukan by claiming a unique advantage and completely lost against Soon. If any two of the Scribblers had faced Xykon and Redcloak together, they'd have won. Yeah Xykon will kill a lot of people given the chance but he'd never be able to "rule the world". Not to mention that the entire premise of ruling the world using those Gates makes no sense and the only reason Xykon has been fooled is that he probably has no ranks in Knowledge Arcana.

He lost against Lirian when he was mortal. When he was a Lich, he brutally executed her. He also dispatched Serini casually. Then he assaulted Dorukan and Soon's best defenses that they had decades to construct.

The only Scribbler who put up a serious fight against Xykon was Dorukan. Even with Soon, it was a positive energy being he was fighting (actually, a bunch of them) that was tied to the throne room, and not the flesh-and-blood paladin that would have been far more vulnerable.

EmperorSarda

2021-03-17, 10:45 AM

I always interpreted that as Xykon being too lazy to do the work himself. He wants to be ready when the time comes but he doesn't want to do his homework, so he asks Tsukiko to do it for him.

I think there is a certain amount of laziness to it, yeah. But also his intelligence is a factor too. Xykon is street smart. He's trope savvy. He's cunning. But he's not book smart. So it is both. He doesn't understand his half of the ritual, but also doesn't want to research it himself.

Fyraltari

2021-03-17, 10:47 AM

Eh, I'd bet against that. Xykon may be savvy, but he's really not a patient person. All of his plans and schemes and decision-making are about how he can amuse himself the most, in the moment. I wouldn't rule out him having a clue that things aren't 100% on the level with the Ritual, but I just don't buy that he's just waiting to Shaggy Dog Story (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShaggyDogStory) the main Villainous Plot of the comic. All that for a slightly-meaner-than-usual death for Redcloak? Doesn't seem like his style.
You're forgetting that he gets to watch Recloak squirm under his own guilt for years on end. He really gets a constant kicker out of that, I think. For example there was that time he told Tsukiko to call Redcloak "Wrong-Eye" every time she feels like putting him down. I bet he was really proud of him when he thought of that one. Xykon spent a lot of time grooming Redcloak into his personal chew toy, but that rests on their following the Plan, so as he has nothing to do I can see Xykon following the Plan for the sole purpose of torturing Redcloak even if he doesn't really believe itnwould make him king of the world anymore.

Dragonus45

2021-03-17, 10:47 AM

Yeah, okay, but I'm still putting my quatloos on Serini not being stopped solely by how good a fight the Order put up.

Well narratively yea, the comic is more then just the pure math of 3.5

Ionathus

2021-03-17, 10:52 AM

Because killing a god is steak, rubbing it in the face of that god's high priest is gravy, doing it after that high priest faciliated you doing it is dessert and doing while that high priest thinks he was fooling you is sprinkles.

Xykon wants to rule the world. He has said that multiple times. He does not seem to care about anything else. In particular, he has never shown even the slightest interest in the goblinoids' plight or The Dark One. He has never asked any questions about TDO. He has, as far as I can remember, only made a single reference to TDO, in 1039: "I've been waiting 45 minutes for your mortal ass to finish playing Mother-May-I with the Dim One."

Why would Xykon go back on his previously-stated and completely-in-character goal of ruling the world, to kill a god he doesn't care about, all to spite his First Minion who he only barely cares about?

You believe that the guy with epic levels of knowledge (arcane) and spellcraft and who researches custom spells is not up on the book-smarts bits of magic.

Has Xykon researched or cast any custom spells? Has he invented any? Remember that the Cloister spell is Dorukan's, and at least part of that mojo was from the diadem Dorukan used.

I just don't see that mentality at all, coming from the guy who said Only two things matter: Force in as great a concentration as you can manage, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide.
...
You can have your finely-crafted watch -- give me the sledgehammer to the face any day.

Ghosty

2021-03-17, 10:52 AM

Cool potion brewing skills grandma, good luck getting them past a Mind Blank...

How long's it been since V cast that Mind Blank before the first big Vamp fight? 24 hours? Reason I ask is that every Mind Blank s/he casts is a Sunburst s/he can't, and---as @danielxcutter has been very prolific in pointing out---Sunburst is one of the few ways V can actually harm Xykon. Though I see nothing wrong with the Quickened True Strike/Disintegrate combo spam, mentioned upthread.

Anyway, I'm not sure s/he casted another one. Unless, of course, there's a strip I'm missing where that was explicitly done. Which is really likely, LOL.

Dr.Zero

2021-03-17, 10:56 AM

The_Weirdo

2021-03-17, 10:57 AM

Fyraltari

2021-03-17, 10:57 AM

I always interpreted that as Xykon being too lazy to do the work himself. He wants to be ready when the time comes but he doesn't want to do his homework, so he asks Tsukiko to do it for him.
Xykon doesn't need to understand the mecanics of the Ritual to follow it any more than I need a degree in chemistry to follow a recipe. He wanted Tsukiko to check that the Ritual did do as advertised. That's why he lied to Redcloak about not knowing how she got his half of the Ritual. He's always been upfront about not caring about nerd-stuff he wouldn't lie if that were that.

So now the sotuation likely is: Xykon suspects that Redcloak lied to him; Redcloak knows that Xykon suspects that he lied to him; Xykon likely suspects that Redcloak suspects that Xykon suspects that he lied to him; Recloak likely suspects that Xykon suspects that and so on.

BloodSquirrel

2021-03-17, 11:00 AM

The weird part is Serini is actually acting more Lawful than the Paladins.

She's taking the big-picture, "a few must suffer so the whole must survive", utilitarian view.

So, congrats, lady, for making me side with the Paladins over the Rogue.

That's not lawful, that kind of ends-justify-the-means is much closer to chaotic. Utilitarianism and lawfulness are inherently at odds; lawfulness is about following rules, whereas utilitarianism rejects any consideration other than a global estimate of +good vs -bad.

The_Weirdo

2021-03-17, 11:02 AM

That's not lawful, that kind of ends-justify-the-means is much closer to chaotic.

Machiavellianism isn't alignment-specific. Ends justifying means can be used for freedom by Chaotics or for harmony by Lawfuls. It can be used to keep a charity going or to get money and power. Lawful tends towards big picture and wide scope, very often at the expense of a few and specifically a few powerless ones. Hence my claim. I'd argue that it's less about rules - not the least of it because there are precious few for that scenario - than about ends and even means. Serini's ends became "preserving the world". The means became "at the cost of comparatively few people suffering under a tyrant". Hence the Lawful part: Non-Evil Lawfuls will tend towards sacrificing the few for the good of the many.

Itrogash

2021-03-17, 11:04 AM

Has Xykon researched or cast any custom spells? Has he invented any? Remember that the Cloister spell is Dorukan's, and at least part of that mojo was from the diadem Dorukan used.

Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage comes to mind.

Ionathus

2021-03-17, 11:05 AM

The only Scribbler who put up a serious fight against Xykon was Dorukan. Even with Soon, it was a positive energy being he was fighting (actually, a bunch of them) that was tied to the throne room, and not the flesh-and-blood paladin that would have been far more vulnerable.

It doesn't really matter that Soon was a positive-energy being at the time. He still lost to the Sapphire Guard (ignoring Miko's error). That shows that, even as a lich, Xykon is not unkillable. Controlling the Snarl (in the way he and Serini think he'd be able to) would give him a big whopping fantasy Nuke, but it would not make him immortal. Hell, in FFVI, Kefka had the Light of Judgment and he still gets his ass handed to him at the end of the game.

Thinking about it, Kefka is a pretty decent comparison for Xykon's style. Maybe a bit more unhinged and omnicidal.

You're forgetting that he gets to watch Recloak squirm under his own guilt for years on end. He really gets a constant kicker out of that, I think. For example there was that time he told Tsukiko to call Redcloak "Wrong-Eye" every time she feels like putting him down. I bet he was really proud of him when he thought of that one. Xykon spent a lot of time grooming Redcloak into his personal chew toy, but that rests on their following the Plan, so as he has nothing to do I can see Xykon following the Plan for the sole purpose of torturing Redcloak even if he doesn't really believe itnwould make him king of the world anymore.

Yeah, but that's all on the way to the next objective. Bullying your subordinates for lulz while you're doing other, big-picture evil is one thing...willingly going along with a fake plan for years, just because you really like torturing this one goblin and think the payoff will be funny, does not really make sense given what we know about Xykon. That feels more like a pre-character-growth Belkar.

This snippet of a quote (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?294096-The-MitD-outwitting-Xykon/page8), which got The Giant's seal of approval (not canon, I know, but illustrates Xykon's mentality) feels relevant:

Xykon isn't particularly emotionally invested in the Gates - if Kraagor's Gate explodes as well, he'll be irritated, shrug, vapourise Redcloak and move onto the next scheme for world domination, because he has the assets to do so.

BloodSquirrel

2021-03-17, 11:08 AM

Machiavellianism isn't alignment-specific. Ends justifying means can be used for freedom by Chaotics or for harmony by Lawfuls. It can be used to keep a charity going or to get money and power. Lawful tends towards big picture and wide scope, very often at the expense of a few and specifically a few powerless ones. Hence my claim.

That's completely wrong.

Stealing money to give to a charity is not lawful behavior, and neither is routinely break your oaths because you're thinking about "the big picture". There's really no room for debate on this- we literally got to see Hinjo and Shojo have it out on this stuff.

Dr.Zero

2021-03-17, 11:09 AM

The weird part is Serini is actually acting more Lawful than the Paladins.

She's taking the big-picture, "a few must suffer so the whole must survive", utilitarian view.

So, congrats, lady, for making me side with the Paladins over the Rogue.

It's rational. Repulsive, at least to me, in its greater-good utilitarianism, but rational.

I don't think I can agree with you on this, for various reasons.
Firstly, it's not that in the actual world people don't suffer: her reasoning, beautifully expressed when she talked about status quo, is that there will be a switch about the side suffering.
Secondly, which is strictly connected with the first, she doesn't know the outcome for sure, so it isn't an egoistic choice, like "I save the people I like the most".
Finally, the survivors, if really dislike to be under X, can kill themselves, easily fixing Serini's actions.

The_Weirdo

2021-03-17, 11:11 AM

That's completely wrong.

Stealing money to give to a charity is not lawful behavior, and neither is routinely break your oaths because you're thinking about "the big picture". There's really no room for debate on this- we literally got to see Hinjo and Shojo have it out on this stuff.

I didn't say it is Lawful behavior; I said Machiavellianism can be done by all alignments and gave examples thereof.

I don't think I can agree with you on this, for various reasons.
Firstly, it's not that in the actual world people don't suffer: her reasoning, beautifully expressed when she talked about status quo, is that there will be a switch about the side suffering.
Secondly, which is strictly connected with the first, she doesn't know the outcome for sure, so it isn't an egoistic choice, like "I save the people I like the most".
Finally, the survivors, if really dislike to be under X, can kill themselves, easily fixing Serini's actions.

Sure, it's the kind of utilitarian worldview I dislike, but it's not something that I see as universally contemptible. AKA, I strenuously disagree with her, but I understand that a reasonable person might not.

As for suicide, I don't view it as that easy, but okay.

Peelee

2021-03-17, 11:11 AM

"Of course you had another choice!" strikes me as something that someone would say, if they really thought it was O-Chul who had swung the blade, and was really PO'd about it. Not someone who knew another person had stepped in and actually done it. Yeah, there's that, "at the time I made that decision," line from O-Chul. Still not buying it. I think she really thinks he did it.

There's real anger and exasperation in that line, and that statement, delivered like she did, fits with what Serini knows and has experienced, working with her party's Paladin for such a long time. It's a nifty piece of writing.

I disagree. She clearly knows someone else used his sword (O-Chul himself acknowledges she knows this), so that's not her reasoning. She knows the paladins chose to destroy the Gate. Whether or not they did is irrelevant. They chose to, they tried to, and someone else succeeded specifically because she saw their attempt to do it.

Serini doesn't care if they would be successful. She cares that they would make the choice to attempt it. She does not believe their protests that they would not. Simple as that.

Ionathus

2021-03-17, 11:13 AM

Xykon doesn't need to understand the mecanics of the Ritual to follow it any more than I need a degree in chemistry to follow a recipe. He wanted Tsukiko to check that the Ritual did do as advertised. That's why he lied to Redcloak about not knowing how she got his half of the Ritual. He's always been upfront about not caring about nerd-stuff he wouldn't lie if that were that.

So now the sotuation likely is: Xykon suspects that Redcloak lied to him; Redcloak knows that Xykon suspects that he lied to him; Xykon likely suspects that Redcloak suspects that Xykon suspects that he lied to him; Recloak likely suspects that Xykon suspects that and so on.

Fair point, going back I can easily read the scene in that way as well. But even if Xykon is suspicious about Redcloak's motives, that doesn't mean he'll change how he handles the gate. Xykon is the kind of person who didn't do anything about Right-Eye, put a simple contingency in place (the ring), and waited to see what happens. He did the same with Redcloak: he Geas'd (?) the MitD to kill Redcloak in event of betrayal. Even if he thinks Redcloak is likely to betray him, Xykon is the type of person to think "I took precautions already, I'm good. Full steam ahead." I just don't see him altering the plan for the Ritual at all. Bullying or killing Redcloak? Sure.

Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage comes to mind.

Touche. Although a joke spell that's intentionally weaker than its regular counterpart doesn't really feel like evidence he's capable of grafting God-killing magic onto a very specifically-designed hybrid Arcane/Divine ritual.

Heksefatter

2021-03-17, 11:15 AM

I can definitely see where she's coming from, particularly given the information she likely has.

Dr.Zero

2021-03-17, 11:18 AM

As for suicide, I don't view it as that easy, but okay.

It's incredible easy: just run toward one of the NPCs races that will rule the world swinging a sword.
You'll end up dead quite quickly.
Since without Serini you'd end up dead anyway, well, no damage done to you.

This is different from the other circumstances, where I agreed with you (namely: people enslaving other people and the discussion about their right to fight for freedom).

Doug Lampert

2021-03-17, 11:20 AM

Here's an example:

Surprise round: she uses Sneak Attack to shoot Haley, Vaarsuvius, and Elan(and maybe Belkar if she has Haste, I guess). She has 11d6 or higher sneak attack, plus any bonus from magical items and such, and they're also poisoned.

Okay, now that I think about it I guess one bolt each is a bit overshooting. V's almost certainly going down though, and maybe another one of the Order.

And considering that Serini has no intentions of having a fair fight, the Order's going to be at a severe disadvantage.

Surprise round is a single action, SHE CAN NOT FULL ATTACK in a surprise round and gets ONE attack.

If V has up Bear's Endurance, a level 2 buff, then she can't even take V out that way on a surprise round unless she gets a crit or the poison takes him down instantly, because she does an average of only 44 HP on a sneak attack normal hit.

BloodSquirrel

2021-03-17, 11:20 AM

It doesn't really matter that Soon was a positive-energy being at the time. He still lost to the Sapphire Guard (ignoring Miko's error). That shows that, even as a lich, Xykon is not unkillable.

Yes, it does matter. Xykon killed the entire Sapphire Guard. He did it easily. The paladin ghosts were something that could only be used then and there because it was the heart of their prepared defenses. That's not something that they could have taken and dropped on his head while he was in his own throne room.

Controlling the Snarl (in the way he and Serini think he'd be able to) would give him a big whopping fantasy Nuke, but it would not make him immortal. Hell, in FFVI, Kefka had the Light of Judgment and he still gets his ass handed to him at the end of the game.

Xykon already is immortal. And this isn't a JRPG. He's an epic-level D&D lich, and adventurers powerful enough to threaten him don't just pop out of nowhere. If he was just a level 10 sorcerer with a bit powerful nuke, then sure, some plucky adventurers might be able to get into his castle and kill him. But he's not. He literally laughed off Lirian's attempts to hurt him.

The_Weirdo

2021-03-17, 11:20 AM

It's incredible easy: just run toward one of the NPCs races that will rule the world swinging a sword.
You'll end up dead quite quickly.
Since without Serini you'd end up dead anyway, well, no damage done to you.

This is different from the other circumstances, where I agreed with you (namely: people enslaving other people and the discussion about their right to fight for freedom).

Sure, and I agree with you on that. Moreover, I can even understand Serini's views. I don't agree with them, but I appreciate how hard her choice is if we judge it from her perspective.

understatement

2021-03-17, 11:23 AM

Thoughts:

I think the strip suggests that Serini didn't scry or observe the Gates; she believes the paladins are responsible for the destruction of all of them (which makes sense. The only people outside of the Scribblers who'd might know about the Gates are Soon's defendants).

And of course Serini doesn't know about Redcloak's Plan -- because only two people on earth know it, and the only reason the Order knows is because a god directly told it to Durkon. She has no reason to assume any alternative Plan then just "Xykon takes Gates, rules world."

I'm pretty excited to see where Punisher Frodo goes.

dancrilis

2021-03-17, 11:28 AM

Xykon wants to rule the world. He has said that multiple times. He does not seem to care about anything else. In particular, he has never shown even the slightest interest in the goblinoids' plight or The Dark One. He has never asked any questions about TDO. He has, as far as I can remember, only made a single reference to TDO, in 1039: "I've been waiting 45 minutes for your mortal ass to finish playing Mother-May-I with the Dim One."

Why would Xykon go back on his previously-stated and completely-in-character goal of ruling the world, to kill a god he doesn't care about, all to spite his First Minion who he only barely cares about?

Xykon wants to not be bored - a quest to rule the world is fine for that, but when he effectively had a city at his beck and call he didn't actually do much to rule it - if he does becomes world emperor I don't see him really doing much paperwork, edicts or taxation policy that one might normally expect from such a position.

Has Xykon researched or cast any custom spells? Has he invented any? Remember that the Cloister spell is Dorukan's, and at least part of that mojo was from the diadem Dorukan used.

Xykon's moderately escapable forcecage (as mentioned above) - and unless Dorukan but cloiser on a stone tablet at double the expence of normal research (for some reason) he would have had to research that also same for Epic Mage Armour and Superb Dispelling, he also has some castle creation spells that seem custom, and arguably Greater* Shatter.

EmperorSarda

2021-03-17, 11:30 AM

Has Xykon researched or cast any custom spells? Has he invented any? Remember that the Cloister spell is Dorukan's, and at least part of that mojo was from the diadem Dorukan used.
.

Any custom spells are going to come about through experimentation vis a vis charisma. His spellcasting has never come from research. It comes from his innate inborn magic and force of personality. Any new spell will be a result will be trial and error experimentation rather than what Durkon did to research Mass Death Ward. Which I still don't understand how he can research a spell and then ask Thor to be able to cast it.

One Skunk Todd

2021-03-17, 11:32 AM

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 11:32 AM

Because killing a god is steak, rubbing it in the face of that god's high priest is gravy, doing it after that high priest faciliated you doing it is dessert and doing while that high priest thinks he was fooling you is sprinkles.

Sprinkles on steak and gravy? Truly, he is Evil.

You believe that the guy with epic levels of knowledge (arcane) and spellcraft and who researches custom spells is not up on the book-smarts bits of magic.

I imagine less "up on the smarts" and more "can't be arsed to most of the time and also maybe he wanted a second opinion".

Well narratively yea, the comic is more then just the pure math of 3.5

Fair. Otherwise the comic would have ended during the (possibly advanced considering how big it was) Pit Fiend fight or something.

It doesn't really matter that Soon was a positive-energy being at the time. He still lost to the Sapphire Guard (ignoring Miko's error). That shows that, even as a lich, Xykon is not unkillable. Controlling the Snarl (in the way he and Serini think he'd be able to) would give him a big whopping fantasy Nuke, but it would not make him immortal. Hell, in FFVI, Kefka had the Light of Judgment and he still gets his ass handed to him at the end of the game.

Thinking about it, Kefka is a pretty decent comparison for Xykon's style. Maybe a bit more unhinged and omnicidal.

The Snarl is canonically capable of ripping gods a new one due to being made of more quiddities than anything else in the multiverse, mortals aren't much better.

Of course we know that he's probably not going to end up being able to control it, but you seem to be underestimating what it can do more than a bit.

Yeah, but that's all on the way to the next objective. Bullying your subordinates for lulz while you're doing other, big-picture evil is one thing...willingly going along with a fake plan for years, just because you really like torturing this one goblin and think the payoff will be funny, does not really make sense given what we know about Xykon. That feels more like a pre-character-growth Belkar.

This snippet of a quote (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?294096-The-MitD-outwitting-Xykon/page8), which got The Giant's seal of approval (not canon, I know, but illustrates Xykon's mentality) feels relevant:

Here's how I, personally see it: He's going on with it because there's the chance of him becoming the King of the WorldTM and he gets his kicks grinding Redcloak down. Once he's sure that it won't work, he's going to blast Redcloak into a fine mist and then move on.

Surprise round is a single action, SHE CAN NOT FULL ATTACK in a surprise round and gets ONE attack.

If V has up Bear's Endurance, a level 2 buff, then she can't even take V out that way on a surprise round unless she gets a crit or the poison takes him down instantly, because she does an average of only 44 HP on a sneak attack normal hit.

*checks SRD*

Okay, I didn't actually know that. Fair enough, but Serini is probably going to fight dirty. Fighting dirty if you're weak can make up for the difference in power, fighting dirty if you're stronger is devastating.

Also there's no way that crossbow's nonmagical, FWIW.

KorvinStarmast

2021-03-17, 11:33 AM

Four times Xykon has attacked a gate, four times a gate has been destroyed. When has Xykon ever attacked a gate? :smallconfused: Xykon is interested in controlling a gate, not attacking one. Go back to the gate under Dorukan's dungeon. He needed a sap of pure heart to get a chance at controlling the gate. Elan almost provided him what he needed until Haley did the grapple (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0109.html).

All she knows is that these paladins and the gaggle of mook adventurers trying to stop Xykon probably can't actually beat him. And she doesn't want to risk it.

I can only hope some members of the order can fill her in on the situation with the gods. The chances the she listens to them: Low to Zero. :smallcool:
- Xykon emerging victorious will likely result in the world being reset anyway, because may of the gods who voted "no" the first time will switch to "yes" if it means avoiding the Dark One holding them hostage in their own domains and threatening the souls they have there. Loki mentions a 'no backsies' rule in the Godsmoo (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html)t, so that 'change the vote' I don't think is going to happen.
- None of her plan accounts for the IFCC, who appear to also want the gates, and whose plans are likely to be significantly longer-term and evil than Xykon's. I suspect they will end up as the true villains in the end, that even the Dark One will agree to oppose. Not betting against that.

And considering that Serini has no intentions of having a fair fight, One of the few true things anyone has presented about the hypothetical combat with the Order.

That of course raises the question of "why would Xykon keep humoring Redcloak up until now instead of killing him and the rest of the goblins". He needs him to do the divine half of the ritual.

As others have said, Serini's logic is sound given the incomplete information she's working with. Check
"You can't keep knocking over the game board whenever your side starts losing!" That was a nice cheap shot, and not even true given that the first gate fell before the Order existed, and before the Paladin's gate got destroyed. She's being economical with the facts. :smalltongue:

I don't really see any motivation for Xykon to even care about TDO Check.

Serini thinks she knows what is going on. But she doesn't know what she doesn't know and worse is failing to even CONSIDER that she doesn't know all the relevant facts. So far. Roy, Talky Man, may have a go with his brand of The Truth as We Know It and perhaps penetrate her biases. We'll see.

I'm not saying it isn't on brand. Just that it's a bit sad to see the last surviving member of the Order of the Scribble about to ruin everything on impulse and incomplete information, with a side of seriously unpleasant motivation involving the deaths of so so many people because what comes out the other end might look better. Serini's goal is "keep the world from being destroyed." The status quo isn't what she's worried about, as long as there is status something, at all. Nothing worthwhile comes without cost. What I like about all this is that her goal and Roy's are the same, but she isn't aware of that ... yet.

Not to mention that the entire premise of ruling the world using those Gates makes no sense and the only reason Xykon has been fooled is that he probably has no ranks in Knowledge Arcana. While I hadn't thought of that, since he's a sorcerer and not a wizard, that estimate strikes me as a good one.

DukeBG

2021-03-17, 11:33 AM

Could someone actually explain that part? It makes zero sense to me.

The ultimate power plan of Xykon is to commence a "ritual" on the gate. That plan is complete BS made up by Redcloak and actual outcome of the ritual is moving the gate to where the gods are.

Serini is one of the people who created the gates. She, if anyone, has to understand that there is not "ultimate world domination" to gain from the gate. She has to realize that The Evil Team's plans are complete boloney. She should be able to answer to the Heroes Team not what she answers in the page, but that defeating Xykon isn't required, because his plans are boloney, you cannot get any power from the gates.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Ionathus

2021-03-17, 11:33 AM

Yes, it does matter. Xykon killed the entire Sapphire Guard. He did it easily. The paladin ghosts were something that could only be used then and there because it was the heart of their prepared defenses. That's not something that they could have taken and dropped on his head while he was in his own throne room.

Xykon already is immortal. And this isn't a JRPG. He's an epic-level D&D lich, and adventurers powerful enough to threaten him don't just pop out of nowhere. If he was just a level 10 sorcerer with a bit powerful nuke, then sure, some plucky adventurers might be able to get into his castle and kill him. But he's not. He literally laughed off Lirian's attempts to hurt him.

Sure, Xykon killed the entire Sapphire Guard easily, but he didn't BEAT them easily. That's like saying you easily won a final boss fight because you destroyed the first of their 2 (or 3, or more) health bars. The boss then explodes, and turns into a fiery angel or whatever, and you begin the second round of the boss fight. Xykon did not win the FIGHT. He killed them, but he was not prepared for everything a bunch of mortals had put in place to stop him. That the mortals had to become positive energy spirits to stop him does not change the fact that they still almost stopped him through their own actions and preparations.

Just because the Sapphire Guard Ghost-Martyrs had to stay in the Azure City throne room doesn't mean Xykon is invulnerable to every possible scenario as long as he stays in his Evil Fortress. If he completed the Ritual and it did what he thinks it'll do, eventually someone would still grow powerful enough and kill him.

This entire conversation is moot because Xykon is never going to get "control" over the Snarl, and nobody wants that to happen. But it's completely wrong to say that if he did, and the gods didn't blow up the world, that Xykon would rule the world forever as an immortal, invulnerable, unkillable, all-powerful demi-god. Things would be very bad for a lot of people, maybe even for a long time, but then someone would eventually gank him.

That doesn't change how important it is for the heroes to stop him (again, even in this weird hypothetical world where the Ritual does what Xykon wants). It doesn't mean Serini is doing the RIGHT thing by essentially clearing the way for Xykon to "win".

All it means is that no, Serini is not insane for thinking eventually Xykon would fall.

hroþila

2021-03-17, 11:34 AM

Isn't someone trying to topple Xykon when he had control of a gate how this whole thing(OotS not the prequels) started in the first place? That doesn't seem like a good premise on which to base the security of the WHOLE FRICKING WORLD! :)
But Serini isn't saying "meh, the problem will sort itself out anyway", she's saying "while there's life there's hope". And that's always true, but especially in a world that literally works along narrative lines.

CountDVB

2021-03-17, 11:35 AM

I am getting the feeling that Serini thinking that the Paladins broke their oath regarding checking up on one another, and she really underestimates Xykon’s pettiness if she thinks the monsters won’t suffer still under him.

Xykon is going through the motions because he has nothing else to go for. He’s a lich who’s only favorite things we’re coffee and hurting people. Dude changed since he lost the former.

Riftwolf

2021-03-17, 11:36 AM

Which I still don't understand how he can research a spell and then ask Thor to be able to cast it.

Gods can pretty much warp reality however they want. Clerics have to research how to ask for a specific warping with very precise effects. Once the Cleric knows the full details, he can shorthand it to the God for later.

gatemansgc

2021-03-17, 11:40 AM

well the order has to be better able to stop her than two paladins...

KorvinStarmast

2021-03-17, 11:43 AM

Serini is one of the people who created the gates. She, if anyone, has to understand that there is not "ultimate world domination" to gain from the gate. She has to realize that The Evil Team's plans are complete boloney. She should be able to answer to the Heroes Team not what she answers in the page, but that defeating Xykon isn't required, because his plans are boloney, you cannot get any power from the gates. I mentioned further up that characters in the story do not have access to all of the info that the readers do. So to the bold part: no, she doesn't have to understand that.
she really underestimates Xykon’s pettiness if she thinks the monsters won’t suffer still under him. If you are suffering but alive, you are still alive and the world still exists. That's her focus.

Xykon is going through the motions because he has nothing else to go for. He’s a lich who’s only favorite things we’re coffee and hurting people. Dude changed since he lost the former. Once again, the importance of coffee can't be overemphasized. :smallbiggrin:

ebarde

2021-03-17, 11:44 AM

I think Team Evil is at a certain disadvantage in that they have to fight a defensive war for weeks to do anything with the gate, securing it is the easiest part really. Not to mention that unlike Dorukan's I don't think they can just toss all their mooks and set-up their own traps and be done with it, and I bet Serini has enough backdoors and defenses to make setting up the ritual very difficult. Also, I wonder if Oona might actually be on Serini's side somehow? A bit of a wild guess, but the way her village is set-up in relation to the dungeon makes me wonder if Serini didn't strike some sort of agreement with them.

KorvinStarmast

2021-03-17, 11:46 AM

I think Team Evil is at a certain disadvantage in that they have to fight a defensive war for weeks to do anything with the gate, securing it is the easiest part really. Not to mention that unlike Dorukan's I don't think they can just toss all their mooks and set-up their own traps and be done with it, and I bet Serini has enough backdoors and defenses to make setting up the ritual very difficult. Also, I wonder if Oona might actually be on Serini's side somehow? A bit of a wild guess, but I feel that the way her village is set-up in relation to the dungeon makes me wonder if Serini didn't strike some sort of agreement with them. That's a decent guess, given her empathy statement in this strip.

DukeBG

2021-03-17, 11:47 AM

I mentioned further up that characters in the story do not have access to all of the info that the readers do. So to the bold part: no, she doesn't have to understand that.
Well, I'm not referring to any info that the readers know. She's discussing on the page points like "Xykon <...> ruling the world", "villain calling the shots". That assumes that she believes that there is something like that for Xykon to get from the gate. Being one of the people who created the gate she has to understand that being impossible.

dancrilis

2021-03-17, 11:47 AM

Which I still don't understand how he can research a spell and then ask Thor to be able to cast it.

It might be that the standard spells are effectively known:
Cleric: Thor give me a death ward spell.
Thor: Sure here you go, enjoy.

But that custom spells need much more explanation
Cleric: Thor give me 30% Death Ward, 30% Mass Fox’s Cunning - for the mass hold the Fox's Cunning elements related to intelligence, 20% Control Undead - merely seeking duration for that but the magic enterlinks with mass fox's cunning better then Death Ward, need 10% dispel magic also not sure why I need that that but the research has it, guess dismissable might be useful I guess, and round it out with 10% whatever you like just need some untainted juice.
Thor: ... what?

It is possible that when asking for a custom spell the magical breakdown of the spell needs to be very clear to be understood and that explanation is where the research comes into it, and that different clerics might research the same spell (and therefore how they request it) very differently.

I am getting the feeling that Serini thinking that the Paladins broke their oath regarding checking up on one another, and she really underestimates Xykon’s pettiness if she thinks the monsters won’t suffer still under him.

The hobgoblins did fine with him for an extended period of time.

Gift Jeraff

2021-03-17, 11:47 AM

I don't see how Serini could prevent the Order from pursuing Xykon with just an amnesia potion. She'll have to wipe a lot of memories and teleport them to the opposite side of the planet. Like back to when they thought Xykon was gone for good and before they learned about the Gates.

Maybe we are going to get a major memory wipe and that's why the Julia's communication with Roy was established earlier in the book.

Ionathus

2021-03-17, 11:48 AM

The Snarl is canonically capable of ripping gods a new one due to being made of more quiddities than anything else in the multiverse, mortals aren't much better.

Of course we know that he's probably not going to end up being able to control it, but you seem to be underestimating what it can do more than a bit.

I'm not underestimating the power of The Snarl. But even if he controlled it, The Snarl would be much more dangerous to institutions and nations than it would be to a plucky band of adventurers. Assassinations still happen in the real world, to leaders whose countries possess world-ending weapons. That's how I see the hypothetical "controlled Snarl" as well: excellent at subjugating entire nations or even wiping out armies, but not really useful or precise enough to target individual creatures. And certainly not precise enough to give Xykon new defensive or regenerative powers. Maybe you see it differently.

Here's how I, personally see it: He's going on with it because there's the chance of him becoming the King of the WorldTM and he gets his kicks grinding Redcloak down. Once he's sure that it won't work, he's going to blast Redcloak into a fine mist and then move on.

My thoughts exactly.

Could someone actually explain that part? It makes zero sense to me.

The ultimate power plan of Xykon is to commence a "ritual" on the gate. That plan is complete BS made up by Redcloak and actual outcome of the ritual is moving the gate to where the gods are.

Serini is one of the people who created the gates. She, if anyone, has to understand that there is not "ultimate world domination" to gain from the gate. She has to realize that The Evil Team's plans are complete boloney. She should be able to answer to the Heroes Team not what she answers in the page, but that defeating Xykon isn't required, because his plans are boloney, you cannot get any power from the gates.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

I'm not too surprised that the non-magical Rogue of the group didn't pay enough attention to the inner workings of the Gates to understand what can and can't be done with them.

But Serini isn't saying "meh, the problem will sort itself out anyway", she's saying "while there's life there's hope". And that's always true, but especially in a world that literally works along narrative lines.

Exactly. Serini's philosophy is wildly different from the protagonists', but she's neither insane nor evil. She is doing everything she can to prevent the Worst Possible Outcome in her mind: the eradication of the world, via Snarl or Antsy Gods.

masonwheeler

2021-03-17, 11:49 AM

She's acting on incomplete information.

True. But then again, so is everyone else, up to and including the Gods themselves.

Having said that... yeah, Serini is definitely nuts.

Drascin

2021-03-17, 11:53 AM

Why would that be true?

I know that "going epic" sounds pretty, well, epic; but the reality is that there is no huge power boost between level 20 (not epic) and level 21 (epic); except the Epic Spellcasting feat.

Serini is level 21-ish; the Order is around level 15. Yes, that's a tough battle, but on the other hand it is seven against one. The order certainly has a decent chance in fighting her.

Also, she's an Epic Rogue.

Casters get a ton of mileage out of going Epic. Martials get +1d6 damage every three or four levels, if that.

If Serini really comes at the party for a fight, Serini gets annihilated. So I'm expecting she's going to be using all the traps and stuff she's set up all around the dungeon and not even remotely fighting if at all possible.

Which does provide plenty of time for the party to yell out a bunch of very reasonable points while the harrying is happening.

hroþila

2021-03-17, 11:55 AM

Well, I'm not referring to any info that the readers know. She's discussing on the page points like "Xykon <...> ruling the world", "villain calling the shots". That assumes that she believes that there is something like that for Xykon to get from the gate. Being one of the people who created the gate she has to understand that being impossible.
She didn't personally have a hand in the creation of the gates, that was all Lirian and Dorukan. To illustrate, Shojo got his knowledge from Soon, and he theorized (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html) that there might be ways to control the Snarl through the gates, so it appears it is not that obvious.

Even Lirian and Dorukan might not have been able to rule out this hypothesis. No one has exact knowledge about the Snarl.

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 11:57 AM

Oh, and Spellcraft isn't a Rogue class skill, for what that's worth.

DukeBG

2021-03-17, 11:58 AM

I'm not too surprised that the non-magical Rogue of the group didn't pay enough attention to the inner workings of the Gates to understand what can and can't be done with them.
Ok. That answers my question. She's just too dumb when it comes to the magics. Thanks.

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 12:01 PM

Ok. That answers my question. She's just too dumb when it comes to the magics. Thanks.

I'm not sure if "dumb" is the right word. "Uneducated", maybe. I doubt Dorukan would be as good at playing the paladins like a cheap kazoo, would he?

DukeBG

2021-03-17, 12:03 PM

Yeah, you're right.

It's just that the whole "controlling the snarl through the gate" spiel – for me personally – has always (since it was introduced in the comic) been kinda shaky and hanging on a thin thread. But characters of different factions don't seem to be questioning it much and now that we got to someone "who was actually there" – still nothing.

Edward15

2021-03-17, 12:05 PM

So, it looks like my "Seirini ruins the Order's Ambush" theory is more likely than I thought. Even worse, I'm betting she spirits the Order away just before they can attack Xykon but AFTER the trap is disabled, allowing Xykon and Redcloak to see a tunnel they didn't notice before. Whether she listens or not, I just know that Roy is really going to have a shouting match with Seirini. Just hope he can stop her before she force-feeds them all that amnesia potion.

Hey, wouldn't it be something if Durkon turned out to be Kraggor's grandson and that's what stills Seirini's hand?

danielxcutter

2021-03-17, 12:10 PM

Also I love that her goggles look like old 3D glasses.

dancrilis

2021-03-17, 12:11 PM

Hey, wouldn't it be something if Durkon turned out to be Kraggor's grandson and that's what stills Seirini's hand?

Less likely then the very unlikely 'Belkar is her nephew' theory - in my opinion anyway.

Ghosty

2021-03-17, 12:11 PM

I disagree. She clearly knows someone else used his sword (O-Chul himself acknowledges she knows this), so that's not her reasoning. She knows the paladins chose to destroy the Gate. Whether or not they did is irrelevant. They chose to, they tried to, and someone else succeeded specifically because she saw their attempt to do it.

Serini doesn't care if they would be successful. She cares that they would make the choice to attempt it. She does not believe their protests that they would not. Simple as that.

Again, deciding to destroy the Gate when you have a spare, doesn't mean you're going to want to destroy the last one. She obviously doesn't believe the Paladins, and I gave two reasons why she might not upthread---oblivion beats Xykon running things, and the 'Good Guys' might bluff that they'd destroy it or blow it up inadvertently. But "You did it three times before," shouldn't be one of those reasons.

Why what Serini knows is important is, if she knows it was Miko who did it, she defeated the anti-scrying built into the Throne Room. If she did it there, she likely did it with all of the other Gates. Then, she would know that Elan blundered into destroying one. She knows Roy deliberately destroyed one.

And if she's this miffed at the Paladins for even thinking about destroying one in the past, how's she going to react when she meets the group that have already blown up two other Gates? Plus (unlike Team Evil, who have one Gate on their scorecard too.) who are one of the only groups to figure out what looks to be the big safeguard for her Gate: the hidden teleporters in every door?

If she doesn't know what really happened in Soon's Throne Room, she might not know what happened with the other Gates. She also might not know the Order's wizard is responsible for snuffing out the entire family (and then some) of the guy she used to have a crush on.

homersolo

2021-03-17, 12:16 PM

Personally I think that Xykon is too strong for the Order and there's no chance without ridiculous amounts of author fiat(granted, this is a comic and not an actual game), or my personal headcanon of "Roy bullrushes him through the Gate and the Snarl eats him".

Also I know that Serini probably won't try to kill them, but my point is that an epic level Rogue could probably KO Vaarsuvius with just one crossbow bolt if she got a Sneak Attack in, and quite possibly Elan and Haley as well. And that's before magic items and poison.

Dang it. Your random post about how you see Xykon dying has wriggled its way into my head and I am now of the belief that this is how Belkar dies.

Ghosty

2021-03-17, 12:17 PM

well the order has to be better able to stop her than two paladins...

Wouldn't it be great if we could have the Order plus two Paladins? Oh, and an Epic Rogue and architect of the maze helping?

No, still not enough mojo? Bummer.

TRH

2021-03-17, 12:17 PM

Besides, when did we learn that the gates can't possibly be used to control the Snarl and unleash it on the Material Plane? All we learned that I remember is that the existing ritual can't possibly be used that way.

bunsen_h

2021-03-17, 12:18 PM

Nope. Her logic is pretty sound based on the following assumption: existing, with a complete {censored} ruling the world (before someone topples him, which she knows is possible given the existence of adventurers) beats not existing. There are a variety of RL parallels that I'll not introduce due to forum rules but suffice to say that the choices, as she sees it, are not binary: there is a third, fourth, or even fifth option. (We could toss in the old 'where there's life there's hope' cliche, but I'm not sure that she thinks along those lines).

Granted, the observation that she has incomplete information, being a character in the story rather than a reader of the story, is true but irrelevant as regards her sanity and motivations.

She's not insane. She's differently informed. There's a high likelihood that she has some information that we (and the Order) don't.

I suspect she doesn't know about Redcoak's Plan, or else she might have mentioned goblinoids in her list of people who aren't doing well under the current order.

Indeed, or destroying Xykon (which I believe is their plan A) as "the best defense". Doing that doesn't require finding the gate under these circumstances, unless they know Xykon has already found it. Which puts them one up on their old selves, or the party looking for the Lost Treasure of Sdigiji (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html).

Not to be confused with the fabled artifact "The Arm of Sigdi". Which you become able to use by cutting off your own arm, then grafting the Arm to your shoulder, etc.

Those Trolls she loves so much might just be erased from existence because Xykie doesn't like their smell.

Point of order: I don't think that Xykon has a sense of smell any more. We know that he has no sense of taste.

WHY Do people keep saying the IFCC will save V everytime V comes into danger? They never HAVE saved V, they said they can't/won't save V (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html), they don't even particularly want V to win.

They want to prolong any conflict. And they did say that they'd protect V's body while V's spirit was being held by them.

Also I love that her goggles look like old 3D glasses.

Yes. Although the "real" effect may be that we're seeing distorted, enlarged images of her real eyes: one blue, the other troll-red.

Doug Lampert

2021-03-17, 12:20 PM

Any custom spells are going to come about through experimentation vis a vis charisma. His spellcasting has never come from research. It comes from his innate inborn magic and force of personality. Any new spell will be a result will be trial and error experimentation rather than what Durkon did to research Mass Death Ward. Which I still don't understand how he can research a spell and then ask Thor to be able to cast it.

We know X researched at least one custom spell, Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage.

The DMG spell research rules work fine for sorcerers, they just need to take the researched spell as a spell known to actually cast it.

Similarly, a cleric can research a spell, but the gods grant a cleric their spells. The cleric asks the gods for ALL their spells, a custom researched spell is just asking for a special service. We ordered our house constructed with a standard floorplan (asked the builder for a house), but then we also asked for a bunch of handicapped accessibility features and told them to skip another feature. Strangely, the builder was able to accommodate us when we told him what we wanted and offered money.

Not so strangely, the gods can accommodate a cleric when he has researched a spell and has an appropriate spell slot.

HalfTangible

2021-03-17, 12:23 PM

I like that Serini is... basically correct

When your choices are "be ruled by evil for a few years" or "utter oblivion" the former is obviously the better option. Stop Xykon if you can, but we're past the point where taking that risk is worth it.

There's one detail she doesn't know about that makes her plan here not an option (Redcloak's plan and/or the divine cycle) but she is otherwise entirely correct.

TRH

2021-03-17, 12:25 PM

I guess it wouldn't suit the IFCC's interests to have V and the others' memories wiped - V's useless as a game piece if they no longer remember everything with the Gates and are effectively off the board. That said, calling in a soul debt wouldn't fix that, and it'd be easier for them to just send Sabine or Qarr to get everyone back up to speed so they can be steered properly again.

Fyraltari

2021-03-17, 12:29 PM

Yeah, but that's all on the way to the next objective. Bullying your subordinates for lulz while you're doing other, big-picture evil is one thing...willingly going along with a fake plan for years, just because you really like torturing this one goblin and think the payoff will be funny, does not really make sense given what we know about Xykon. That feels more like a pre-character-growth Belkar.

This snippet of a quote (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?294096-The-MitD-outwitting-Xykon/page8), which got The Giant's seal of approval (not canon, I know, but illustrates Xykon's mentality) feels relevant:
Xykon is very much like an early Belkar. Low-attention span sadists who think the world exist for their amusement. Xykon isn't a long-term planner, as you quoted he has no real stakes in the Plan (at least not since he became undying). He does whatever he wants whenever he feels like doing it. If he feels like spending two decades torturing this one guy, he will do it. It's not like he's getting any older anymore. Even if he did conquer the world, it wouldn't change much in his life. He's not Sauron, he's not trying to take over the world so he can rule it, he's doing it because it feels like fun and once he's king of the universe he can just blast a city or two to smithereens whenever he wants. He's certainly not going to create a unified tax system or anything. With the sole exception of protecting his phylactery, it's all just a conseqenceless game to him. Like a bored Skyrim player who's made a save before rampaging through Whiterun.

Isn't someone trying to topple Xykon when he had control of a gate how this whole thing(OotS not the prequels) started in the first place? That doesn't seem like a good premise on which to base the security of the WHOLE FRICKING WORLD! :)
This whole mess started with someone trying to topple Xykon while he was failing to get access to a Gate, actually.

Serini is one of the people who created the gates. She, if anyone, has to understand that there is not "ultimate world domination" to gain from the gate.
Isn't there? The Dark One isn't planning to control the Snarl but that doesn't mean it's impossible. I doubt that even Epic spellcasters could honestly say with full confidence "It's impossible for a god to devise a spell that would tame this creature." Dorukan put a self-destruct rune on his Gate so he clearly feared that someone could use it for nefarious purposes. The Sapphire Guard wasn't aware of Redcloak's goals so it seems that the Scribblers weren't either. Tsukiko figured out that Redcloak's Ritual doesn't do but she had access to one half of the Ritual, how is Serini who hasn't access to it and isn't a mage supposed to guess that?

Windscion

2021-03-17, 12:32 PM

... Also, I wonder if Oona might actually be on Serini's side somehow? A bit of a wild guess, but the way her village is set-up in relation to the dungeon makes me wonder if Serini didn't strike some sort of agreement with them.
I really like this idea. After all, Serini might have guided them to Monster Hollow in the first place.

BloodSquirrel

2021-03-17, 12:43 PM

Sure, Xykon killed the entire Sapphire Guard easily, but he didn't BEAT them easily. That's like saying you easily won a final boss fight because you destroyed the first of their 2 (or 3, or more) health bars. The boss then explodes, and turns into a fiery angel or whatever, and you begin the second round of the boss fight. Xykon did not win the FIGHT. He killed them, but he was not prepared for everything a bunch of mortals had put in place to stop him. That the mortals had to become positive energy spirits to stop him does not change the fact that they still almost stopped him through their own actions and preparations.

Just because the Sapphire Guard Ghost-Martyrs had to stay in the Azure City throne room doesn't mean Xykon is invulnerable to every possible scenario as long as he stays in his Evil Fortress. If he completed the Ritual and it did what he thinks it'll do, eventually someone would still grow powerful enough and kill him.

Sorry, but you've said absolutely nothing to address the difference between Xykon facing defenses that were built up for decades versus someone trying to fight him after he's had decades to build up his defenses.

You tried to bring up an example of something that could defeat Xykon, and I've explained why it isn't relevant. Do you have an example that is relevant, or are you just going to keep blindly asserting that, someone, somehow, will be able to defeat Xykon?

This entire conversation is moot because Xykon is never going to get "control" over the Snarl, and nobody wants that to happen.

No, it's not, because we're discussing Serini's sanity, and she is acting on asumptions that make Xykon controlling the Snarl plausible.

locksmith of lo

2021-03-17, 12:45 PM

what no one seems to have commented on is that we have more and more of the principles and heavies all coming together on the scene. the only one that we are missing, that we know of, is the MitD. once the MitD is there, all we would be missing are the IFCC, et al, and the gods. this really is the beginning of the end it seems.

Theshipening

2021-03-17, 01:00 PM

Sorry, but you've said absolutely nothing to address the difference between Xykon facing defenses that were built up for decades versus someone trying to fight him after he's had decades to build up his defenses.

You tried to bring up an example of something that could defeat Xykon, and I've explained why it isn't relevant. Do you have an example that is relevant, or are you just going to keep blindly asserting that, someone, somehow, will be able to defeat Xykon?
Without bringing up “It’s a story, someone, somehow, will always be able to defeat Xykon because he’s the BBEG”, Durkon once spoke to two dudes who occasionally storm the gates of Hell for funsies, and we know this world spawned, in addition to the whole Order of the Scribbles, at least three epic-level spellcasters (from V’s soul splice). Xykon may, or may not, be the biggest fish in the pond at any given time, but it’s not by a wide margin, and a group of epic-level adventurers assembling to take him down is always a possibility, especially with the giant target on his back that comes with ruling the world.

Fyraltari

2021-03-17, 01:02 PM

Dion

2021-03-17, 01:11 PM

And Serini votes for Safety over Freedom.

*shrug* I’m not sure a world shattered into raw elemental threads by the gods is the kind of “freedom” that people have in mind when they say that.

Nymrod

2021-03-17, 01:11 PM

True. But then again, so is everyone else, up to and including the Gods themselves.

Having said that... yeah, Serini is definitely nuts.

Conservation of Detail tells us that either someone knows the full picture and may spill it at a crucial moment (my bet is that the IFCC KNOWS what is on the other side of the gate and actually is interested in getting their hands on that) OR that the Order ends up on the other side of the Gate at some point in the future.

Grey Watcher

2021-03-17, 01:17 PM

... (my bet is that the IFCC KNOWS what is on the other side of the gate and actually is interested in getting their hands on that) ...

Not that I have a better theory about what their goal is, but how could they know anything about it?

BloodSquirrel

2021-03-17, 01:19 PM

Without bringing up “It’s a story, someone, somehow, will always be able to defeat Xykon because he’s the BBEG”,

Without passively-aggressively countering with "If it's a story, then we don't have to worry about the world blowing up in the first place because it would be a thematically inappropriate ending"...

Durkon once spoke to two dudes who occasionally storm the gates of Hell for funsies, and we know this world spawned, in addition to the whole Order of the Scribbles, at least three epic-level spellcasters (from V’s soul splice). Xykon may, or may not, be the biggest fish in the pond at any given time, but it’s not by a wide margin, and a group of epic-level adventurers assembling to take him down is always a possibility, especially with the giant target on his back that comes with ruling the world.

Aside from the fact that Xkyon is 3-3 against the Scribbles, and V even with her soul-splices couldn't take him down- Xykon will now have a superweapon that can be used to take out anyone before they become that dangerous. As I said: this isn't a JRPG. High level adventurers don't just pop out of nowhere. They have to earn their levels, and that means fighting powerful enemies and achieving great deeds, and that's going to make them visible enough for Xykon to say "Eh, those guys look like trouble. Snarl 'em".

HalfTangible

2021-03-17, 01:22 PM

(my bet is that the IFCC KNOWS what is on the other side of the gate and actually is interested in getting their hands on that)

They didn't know here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html), and by that point their plan was already in motion.

HalfTangible

2021-03-17, 01:25 PM

dancrilis

2021-03-17, 01:27 PM

Not that I have a better theory about what their goal is, but how could they know anything about it?

They could provide Sabine or a different servant with a few dozen souls and tell her to throw them into a rift and depending on how that plays out have a few Imps or Quasits (or similiar) fly into the rift and see about returning with an info gathered ... what they know and don't know depends on what studies they conducted and what the result of those studies was.

We do have an open question in the comic about if there is any problem that sacrificing minions can't solve.

BloodSquirrel

2021-03-17, 01:31 PM

Yeah, if Xykon were the ruthless, methodical, efficient villain Redcloak likes to act like he is. But he's not.

Xykon's the Big Ham. He's evil because it's fun, and part of that fun is, occasionally, having a great hero rise to oppose you. He offers to let Roy go free at Azure City precisely because he's not interested in taking the most efficient route to power. The big climactic showdown at the end would, in Xykon's eyes, be entirely worth letting him go.

Xykon also gets very serious, very fast, when he's genuinely threatened- just look at how he lost his **** when Redcloak lost his phylactery.

Also, remember, this is not "Oh, it might happen", this is "I'm willing to let Xykon have a gate and count on it happening". Serini is counting on Xykon being incompetent and chaotic enough to eventually lose, but competent and careful enough to be trusted not to blow up the gate.

Nymrod

2021-03-17, 01:34 PM

They didn't know here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html), and by that point their plan was already in motion.

Didn't know what would happen if the phylactery dropped in the rift, not what was on the other side. There could be a different quote I am missing of course, but that's not it (I mean it could be that moving the phylactery to the other side of that gate breaks its connection with Xykon.

Theshipening

2021-03-17, 01:34 PM

Aside from the fact that Xkyon is 3-3 against the Scribbles, and V even with her soul-splices couldn't take him down- Xykon will now have a superweapon that can be used to take out anyone before they become that dangerous. As I said: this isn't a JRPG. High level adventurers don't just pop out of nowhere. They have to earn their levels, and that means fighting powerful enemies and achieving great deeds, and that's going to make them visible enough for Xykon to say "Eh, those guys look like trouble. Snarl 'em".
3-3 on 1v1, given his fight against Dorukan was kinda close, if Lirian had been there for some support magic, or Soon for a good ol’ SMITE, etc..., they’d have taken him down, and V not only already used some spells and lost the most powerful of the splices, they were still shackled to their mid-level ass, and would’ve fared much better against Xykon if still in their own high-level bodies (and with some sweet action economy).

You mean, the same Xykon who told Roy to go level up some more before fighting him because otherwise the fight isn’t fun ? Plus, not all great deeds bring great fame (I doubt the Scribblers were well-known, even in life), and even pretty potent forces like Azure City and Dorukan couldn’t track down a god-forsaken lich after he destroyed a Gate, and we all know how Xykon feels about Divination. Also, other planes exist (likely Durkon’s friends were extraplanar, and Ganonron’s whole deal was conquering ‘a thousand planes’, so clearly OotS’s planet isn’t the only inhabited place), and Xykon can’t monitor them all.

Ionathus

2021-03-17, 01:34 PM

I'm not sure if "dumb" is the right word. "Uneducated", maybe. I doubt Dorukan would be as good at playing the paladins like a cheap kazoo, would he?

Agreed. This comic is exceptionally good at demonstrating different forms of intelligence/understanding (Hayley's street-smarts in War & XPs, Elan's bardic knowledge in BRitF, even Durkon's understanding of personal growth in Utterly Dwarfed) in different situations. That's what we're seeing here: Serini didn't spend time learning arcane/divine magic, she spent that time learning about troll communities and developing epic-level misdirection & sneakery. I imagine her competence will be even more thoroughly displayed in the upcoming pages.

Also I love that her goggles look like old 3D glasses.

Makes me think of the 10th Doctor occasionally doing the same!

Again, deciding to destroy the Gate when you have a spare, doesn't mean you're going to want to destroy the last one. She obviously doesn't believe the Paladins, and I gave two reasons why she might not upthread---oblivion beats Xykon running things, and the 'Good Guys' might bluff that they'd destroy it or blow it up inadvertently. But "You did it three times before," shouldn't be one of those reasons.

Look, The Order are the protagonists and I am on their side. I support their actions at Girard's Gate, and I hope they take out Big X instead of letting him reach the gate. But that doesn't mean that their viewpoint is unimpeachable, or that Serini is not entitled to her worldview.

And her worldview is pretty clearly that ZERO of the gates should have ever been destroyed. We're thinking about this in storytelling terms: Elan himself says "it WOULD be more dramatically appropriate to have the final showdown at the final gate".

But if our real world had 5 pillars that kept it from undoing itself, don't you think there would be at least some people who would see the destruction of even one of those pillars as a horrifying step towards oblivion? We're thinking in game terms and saying "well there's still X pillars left" and people like Serini would be saying "NO! You idiots, don't destroy that! There are only X pillars left!"

Sorry, but you've said absolutely nothing to address the difference between Xykon facing defenses that were built up for decades versus someone trying to fight him after he's had decades to build up his defenses.

You tried to bring up an example of something that could defeat Xykon, and I've explained why it isn't relevant. Do you have an example that is relevant, or are you just going to keep blindly asserting that, someone, somehow, will be able to defeat Xykon?

No, it's not, because we're discussing Serini's sanity, and she is acting on asumptions that make Xykon controlling the Snarl plausible.

This is pretty much a parallel debate to the one we had on this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628238-Will-the-heroes-LET-Xykon-gain-control-of-the-last-gate). You asserted that X is impossible, and then I put forward an example where X happens, and then you said "that's not relevant." Except it is. You're fixating on details and minutiae but the big picture is what's important.

The existence of ANY example of X happening means that X is possible. I'm not arguing that a Lich Xykon in control of the Snarl would be easy to defeat, or simple to defeat, or quick to defeat. I'm arguing that he would be not impossible to defeat. It doesn't matter if that defeat takes a long time, or comes after a reshaping of the world, or requires him to be lured into some new chamber a la the Sapphire Guard Throne Room. I'm saying we have proof, in-comic, that Xykon The Lich Sorcerer is not an unkillable god. He has, in fact, many flaws that could (and probably will) be exploited in his downfall.

If Serini was watching the battles for the assorted gates, that means she saw Xykon The Lich Sorcerer get his ass handed to him twice(Roy throwing him at the rune, and the Ghost Martyrs dunking on him). It is nowhere near outside the realm of believability that she would say "yeah, this dude is Evil and will cause a lot of pain, but someone's gonna eventually take him down."

ETA: The threat of Xykon, even from the beginning of the main plot (when the Order learned the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard), has never really been "we have to stop Xykon because if he gets control of The Snarl, that's it, he will be invincible literally forever." The threat has been "we have to stop Xykon because if he gets control of The Snarl, loads of people will get hurt and civilization as we know it will be dramatically reshaped."

Even in Roy's dragon-zombie battle with Xykon, he acknowledges that the world will keep on turning, and Xykon offers for Roy to leave and come back once Xykon's got The Snarl, and they can have a big dramatic fight with Roy at higher levels. Sure, maybe that's a ploy on Xykon's part, but maybe not.

It's like a rampaging bull has broken into the china shop, and The Order and The Paladins are saying "we have to get it out, RIGHT NOW! It'll break some of the china!" because they're do-gooders and they can't stand even small things going wrong if they have the power to try and stop them. Meanwhile Serini, with a much more pragmatic outlook, is saying "you idiot, it might kill you, and then there will never be a china shop ever again!"

Except, you know, on a cosmic scale.

Cazero

2021-03-17, 01:41 PM

Theshipening

2021-03-17, 01:44 PM

I'm not sure what Serini is hoping to accomplish with her amnesia potion. Eventualy, the paladins and the Order are going to notice that Xykon isn't dead (deader, dead-ish, you got the point) and come back for more.
Except this time they'll be in an even bigger rush prone to mishaps. Like breaking a gate.
The plan is to make them think Kraagor’s Tomb isn’t where Serini said it was to Soon (kinda like Girard.) So they can rush all they like, they ain’t finding nothing, because they’ll be looking elsewhere.

Ionathus

2021-03-17, 01:46 PM

The plan is to make them think Kraagor’s Tomb isn’t where Serini said it was to Soon (kinda like Girard.) So they can rush all they like, they ain’t finding nothing, because they’ll be looking elsewhere.

Agreed; it doesn't feel like a terribly long-term solution, but I think Serini probably knows that.

HalfTangible

2021-03-17, 01:49 PM

Didn't know what would happen if the phylactery dropped in the rift, not what was on the other side. There could be a different quote I am missing of course, but that's not it (I mean it could be that moving the phylactery to the other side of that gate breaks its connection with Xykon.

"I don't know why the raven is just staring at the rift"

Dion

2021-03-17, 01:50 PM

dancrilis

2021-03-17, 01:51 PM

Agreed; it doesn't feel like a terribly long-term solution, but I think Serini probably knows that.

It might not have to be - if her current approach can hold off Xykon and Redcloak until Redcloak hits level 21 and if she has a copy of the Gate construction ritual on hand then she could (secretly) hand it to them so that they decide to go away and repair one of the other rifts and leave the north alone.

That way she gets to a) protect her gate and b) help reinforce reality.

BloodSquirrel

2021-03-17, 01:53 PM

This is pretty much a parallel debate to the one we had on this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628238-Will-the-heroes-LET-Xykon-gain-control-of-the-last-gate). You asserted that X is impossible, and then I put forward an example where X happens, and then you said "that's not relevant." Except it is.

You didn't have any kind of a point there, and you don't have one here. Demonstrating to you that your example is not applicable is a relevant part of a debate. It's not cheating. You don't get points for making non-sequiturs and then acting exasperated when your opponent calls them out as such.

You're fixating on details and minutiae but the big picture is what's important.

That's an interesting way of saying "I can't explain how this will actually work, but I like the idea so just shut up in go with it".

It doesn't matter if that defeat takes a long time, or comes after a reshaping of the world,

Actually, no, the amount of death and suffering that Xykon causes before he's defeated really, really does matter.

BarakDeathBlade

2021-03-17, 01:54 PM

Interesting... Serini believes *Xykon* is the main threat, not Redcloak, and doesn't say anything about the Dark One's plot or the Gods in general. Once again, characters acting on incomplete information: I love it.

And I doubt the paladins could clear this up, because they left the fleet back in #672, and haven't had full briefings, just Sendings.

And if I recall correctly even Hinjo doesn't know about the Godsmoot, Hel's plans for the dwarves, or The Dark One's The Plan with Redcloak. So they couldn't enlighten Senji even if they wanted to.

TRH

2021-03-17, 01:54 PM

Serini believes the existential threat to the gates comes from someone destroying them to prevent them from falling into Xykons hands.

And she’s 100% absolutely and totally correct.

That really is what is going to happen. She’s figured it out. The gates (and the rest of the world) really will be destroyed to prevent Xykon and Redcloak from taking control and performing their ritual.

What she doesn’t know - the missing piece of information - is she doesn’t know WHO is going to destroy the gates. She thinks it’s paladins or adventurers or whatever. She’s wrong. It’s all of the gods, working together, who are going to do it.

And she’s not going to keep even one god from destroying it with her amnesia potion, much less all the gods working together.

You've got a point. We've talked a lot already about how Serini's acting on incomplete information, but definitely the biggest thing she doesn't know about is that her world isn't the second, it's the umpteenth squared. Because the Scribblers likely assumed their world was the one made immediately after the Gods got the Snarl under control again, they wouldn't know that the possibility of prematurely unmaking a world and starting over isn't just conjecture like their theories on villains trying to control the Snarl, but something that's happened countless times before. If you don't know that, the decision seems more drastic than it does to the people for whom it's routine.

Lex

2021-03-17, 02:01 PM

I'm not sure what Serini is hoping to accomplish with her amnesia potion. Eventualy, the paladins and the Order are going to notice that Xykon isn't dead (deader, dead-ish, you got the point) and come back for more.
Except this time they'll be in an even bigger rush prone to mishaps. Like breaking a gate.
Her plan is for O-chul and Lien to ho back to Hinjo and tell him that neither Xykon nor the gate were at the given coordinates, so even if they keep looking for him they will look elsewhere. And if Xykon kept casting cloister, either his and his minions cannot be found by magical means.

One Skunk Todd

2021-03-17, 02:02 PM

...Xykon's the Big Ham. He's evil because it's fun, and part of that fun is, occasionally, having a great hero rise to oppose you... ...The big climactic showdown at the end would, in Xykon's eyes, be entirely worth letting him go.

I agree with these sentiments, and sometimes wonder if Xykon is distantly related to Elan/Nale/Tarquin.

BarakDeathBlade

2021-03-17, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
I wonder what her goggles are for...

True sight?

Well, one's red, the other's blue, so True Sight with enhanced 3D?

:smallconfused::smallfurious:

Ionathus

2021-03-17, 02:03 PM

Actually, no, the amount of death and suffering that Xykon causes before he's defeated really, really does matter.

You and I are in agreement on this. We have always been in agreement on this. I do not want to see Xykon win. The amount of death and suffering matters to me, and apparently to you as well. I want the heroes to stop him before he reaches the gate. I would want this regardless of our knowledge that The Ritual doesn't do what he wants it to.

But, separating my personal feelings from the situation, I'm saying that Serini's viewpoint (Xykon ruling the world for a period of time is preferable to eternal oblivion) is not logically flawed, even if I disagree with her philosophy and outlook. You seem to believe that Xykon would be unstoppable forever once he had control over the Snarl, despite no conversation or demonstration to that effect anywhere in the comic. If I've misinterpreted you, I apologize, but that point seems to be where we disagree.

toapat

2021-03-17, 02:05 PM

Well, it's going to be an intersting ambush, isn't it.

I wonder what her goggles are for...

Pre-James-Cameron 3d goggles in DnD is a shorthand for Goggles of True Seeing

HalfTangible

2021-03-17, 02:12 PM

Serini believes the existential threat to the gates comes from someone destroying them to prevent them from falling into Xykons hands.

And she’s 100% absolutely and totally correct. Everyone saying “the last gate won’t be destroyed because it’s the last one” is wrong.

Because that really is what is going to happen. She’s figured it out correctly. The gates (and the rest of the world) really will be destroyed to prevent Xykon and Redcloak from taking control and performing their ritual.

What she doesn’t know - the missing piece of information - is she doesn’t know WHO is going to destroy the gates. She thinks it’s paladins or adventurers or whatever. She’s wrong about who.

All of the gods, working together, are planning to destroy the gate (and the rest of the world along with it) to prevent Xykon from taking control.

And she’s not going to prevent that with her amnesia potions.

This really is the key piece of information she's missing. Serini is going into this assuming that the gods are not a problem so long as the gates remain intact.

But she doesn't know that TDO's plan is to blackmail the other gods, and that the best way they have to prevent that is to destroy the world. The cycle Durkon has had revealed to him (something even more secret than the Snarl, the rifts or the gates) changes everything. For most of the gods, this world is yet another gravestone; tragic, perhaps, but not really a preventable one.

enq

2021-03-17, 02:13 PM

And you can't keep knocking over the game board whenever your side starts losing!
Ahh, now that was a powerful line.

Phexar

2021-03-17, 02:15 PM

Serini definitely doesn't know about The Plan or the gods plans. Things are going to get pretty interesting when/if Tarquin's party show up or if the IFCC pop up here as well and possibly come into conflict with her as well.

CountDVB

2021-03-17, 02:16 PM

The hobgoblins did fine with him for an extended period of time.

For reasons that Redcloak boils down to "it was funnier keeping you alive to upset the Azure City folk and desecrate the city". That's just luck and Redcloak makes it clear that it's conditional.

I get the feeling that, much like the other Scribblers, her own faults or reliance on something will be her downfall, in the same way the other Scribblers had their vulnerabilities.

Serini is a rogue, one who reiles on guile and trickery to fight. With Team Evil, we have an epic sorcerer lich who believes in just pure power and is more than capable of blasting his way through to anything and everything and alongside him with a cleric who is notorious for being relatively pragmatic, efficient and intelligent (relative meaning as he long as he doesn't have to confront his personal failings). She'll also be in conflict with the Order of the Stick, a group of adventurers who's own quirks and eccentricities will likely defy her expectation, especially if she tries subconsciosly pigeon-holing them based on the Scribblers.

BloodSquirrel

2021-03-17, 02:18 PM

3-3 on 1v1, given his fight against Dorukan was kinda close, if Lirian had been there for some support magic, or Soon for a good ol’ SMITE, etc..., they’d have taken him down, and V not only already used some spells and lost the most powerful of the splices, they were still shackled to their mid-level ass, and would’ve fared much better against Xykon if still in their own high-level bodies (and with some sweet action economy).

You're falling back here on the assumption that another Order of the Scribble will have the luxury of forming and then spending a lifetime of adventures getting to that level of power, that Xykon will have no defenses or allies of his own to even things out, that Xykon himself isn't going to get any stronger, etc.

You mean, the same Xykon who told Roy to go level up some more before fighting him because otherwise the fight isn’t fun ?

Yes. The same Xykon who then killed Roy because he really wasn't all that serious about that, and who has repeatedly shown us that he
puts a lot more effort into precautions against actual threats than he lets on. Xykon isn't Goku. He doesn't mind an occasional challenge, but he isn't seeking out a genuine threat to his existence.

Plus, not all great deeds bring great fame (I doubt the Scribblers were well-known, even in life), and even pretty potent forces like Azure City and Dorukan couldn’t track down a god-forsaken lich after he destroyed a Gate, and we all know how Xykon feels about Divination. Also, other planes exist (likely Durkon’s friends were extraplanar, and Ganonron’s whole deal was conquering ‘a thousand planes’, so clearly OotS’s planet isn’t the only inhabited place), and Xykon can’t monitor them all.

This is all fine in theory, but it has the wee problem that here we are, at the end game where the world might get blown up and/or everyone in the world's souls erased... and where are all of these people? The state of the world as we see it would indicate that high-level adventurers- and especially epic-level casters- are very, very rare, and usually involved in big important things like the Empire of Blood.

Dion

2021-03-17, 02:20 PM

Actually, no, the amount of death and suffering that Xykon causes before he's defeated really, really does matter.

Absolutely. And Xykon will probably rule for a thousand years before he gets bored and retires to his astral fortress. That’s going to be a lot of death and despair.

But compare “one thousand years of despair” to “everyone’s and everything totally and utterly obliterated forever” and Serini’s choice can be seen as not irrational.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-03-17, 02:27 PM

That's a shocker. She's gone insane.
Count me in the "this makes perfect sense from her point of view" camp. She sees a group of heroic wannabes who consistently destroy Gates rather than let them fall into the wrong hands, and a world which really needs its last Gate no matter whose hands it's in. Of course, we disagree, because:
We trust that the Order is now strong enough to defeat Xykon.
We know the world might be destroyed by the gods if Xykon holds the last Gate.
We trust Lien and O-chul not to do the paladiny thing as much as 99% of Azure Guard paladins would.

And, you know, she makes a good point about the kobolds and orcs and trolls. I don't think letting a megalomaniacal dictator take over will make that problem any better, but I can sympathize with the "something has to change" attitude.

Jaxzan Proditor

2021-03-17, 02:29 PM

Well, Serini does sure have a valid viewpoint here. Obviously there's a lot that she does not know about and I'm not a huge fan of her methods, but I can't argue that in theory it is better to risk Xykon's rule than the obliteration of everything.

What's more interesting to me than picking sides about how we feel about Serini is more how exactly does this conflict get resolved. I imagine that the next few strips aren't going to be "Serini subdues the Order and then Xykon finds the Gate" (nothing's impossible of course), so what will happen instead? Does the Order defeat Serini? Do they tell her about the Godsmoot and she decides to give them a chance? Does Serini convince the Order that she's right and they go home? Okay, maybe not that last one.

Unoriginal

2021-03-17, 02:31 PM

Well, that is a new, unexpected flavor of Antagonistic Elan.

CountDVB

2021-03-17, 02:32 PM

Absolutely. And Xykon will probably rule for a thousand years before he gets bored and goes to his astral fortress. That’s going to be a lot of death and despair.

But compare “one thousand years of despair” to “everyone’s and everything totally and utterly destroyed forever” and Serini’s choice can be seen as rational.

For some reason, if Serini brings that up, I wonder if Roy will make a call-back to what he told Xykon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html).

Because I doubt all those kobolds, orcs or trolls would benefit from the world become a more chaotic and screwed up place.

Heck, I imagine all the Orders would have their complaints, but a few come to mind:

- Haley would probably point out her experiences in Greysky City and a Rogue, noting her own miseries.
- Belkar would take the different approach; he knows he is or was a pretty callous individual and would use that. Eithe to guilt Serini, catch her off-guard or point out that it'd be a colossal mess, and not in a fun way.

Wildstag

2021-03-17, 02:33 PM

Well, I bet 10k epeen points that Serini doesn't stop to listen to Durkon about Redcloak and TDO's plans for the gate and why active defense is still necessary...

Also, Lien's comments seem to make it clear that the Order has NOT explained the Godsmoot proceedings and how much more is at stake now. Which honestly, it seems shortsighted to not have done so. I feel like at least Hinjo should be informed, and I feel like he wouldn't have left O-Chul and Lien in the dark either.

CountDVB

2021-03-17, 02:37 PM

Dion

2021-03-17, 02:42 PM

Because I doubt all those kobolds, orcs or trolls would benefit from the world become a more chaotic and screwed up place.

Sure, but doubt they would benefit from dying as the world is destroyed by the snarl, either.

hroþila

2021-03-17, 02:42 PM

We know the world might be destroyed by the gods if Xykon holds the last Gate.

Serini likely knows or imagines that the gods might well destroy the world themselves if the situation deteriorates enough. Shojo said the same thing to the Order.

TRH

2021-03-17, 03:03 PM

Serini likely knows or imagines that the gods might well destroy the world themselves if the situation deteriorates enough. Shojo said the same thing to the Order.

She seems to be thinking about that only in the event of the Snarl escaping, since she views a victory by Team Evil as averting that possibility.

BarakDeathBlade

2021-03-17, 03:03 PM

ziproot

2021-03-17, 03:04 PM

Serini likely knows or imagines that the gods might well destroy the world themselves if the situation deteriorates enough. Shojo said the same thing to the Order.

If that was the case, then there would be a stronger argument for destroying Girard or Soon's gate over letting Xykon take it. If Xykon takes it, the world gets destroyed. If the gate gets destroyed, there's always another one.

Clarification: This does not apply to the last gate, obviously, but it does explain destroying the previous gates.

Dion

2021-03-17, 03:13 PM

If the gate gets destroyed, there's always another one.

That’s how the gods feel!

I mean, another gate won’t be on this world. This world will be destroyed. But this isn’t the last gate. There will always be more prisons for the snarl.

KishouTheBadger

2021-03-17, 03:17 PM

Alex Warlorn

2021-03-17, 03:25 PM

She's insane.
She thinks she can erase the memories and destroy every record ON THE PLANET of the heroes' quest? The Order of the Stick have left a lot in their wake.

And she doesn't have the full picture. Since the gods are hovering over the panic button as it is with Thor promising that they can STILL reach a compromise with the Dark One being the only thing that's holding them back!

Riftwolf

2021-03-17, 03:25 PM

But that custom spells need much more explanation
Cleric: Thor give me 30% Death Ward, 30% Mass Fox’s Cunning - for the mass hold the Fox's Cunning elements related to intelligence, 20% Control Undead - merely seeking duration for that but the magic enterlinks with mass fox's cunning better then Death Ward, need 10% dispel magic also not sure why I need that that but the research has it, guess dismissable might be useful I guess, and round it out with 10% whatever you like just need some untainted juice.
Thor: ... what?

Meanwhile there's a 1st cleric behind him wondering when he'll get his 1 spell slot and wondering whether it's worth checking the religion down the High Street.

Peelee

2021-03-17, 03:31 PM

Again, deciding to destroy the Gate when you have a spare, doesn't mean you're going to want to destroy the last one.

And, again, Serini disagrees. If you don't know about the Godsmoot (as Serini doesn't), then you have four holes in a prison holding in a world-killing abomination. Any holes in that prison might be unacceptable to Serini, much less a fifth hole. More holes in the prison mean more likelihood for the Snarl to get out. Serini doesn't know that the gods will unmske the world if this Gate goes, she thinks it's just a fifth hole. You know that blowing thos last gate is a non-option but she doesn't, so she doesn't trust them to not do it.

What we know is not necessarily what Serini knows. You correctly point out the paladins will 100% guaranteed not blow ghid Gate. Serini correctly points out she has no reason to think that.

hroþila

2021-03-17, 03:36 PM

If that was the case, then there would be a stronger argument for destroying Girard or Soon's gate over letting Xykon take it. If Xykon takes it, the world gets destroyed. If the gate gets destroyed, there's always another one.

Clarification: This does not apply to the last gate, obviously, but it does explain destroying the previous gates.
There is a stronger argument, yes, but a possibility is not a certainty. It is often assumed that the gods will automatically pull the plug if the ritual succeeds, but that's not necessarily a sure thing. We don't know that the gods have a protocol for something that's unprecedented.

Fish

2021-03-17, 03:37 PM

All of the discussion about whether the Order can or can't defeat Xykon leaves out one potential scenario: Redcloak. The Order could definitely defeat Xykon if Redcloak were helping them. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to think of a scenario where Xykon and Redcloak turn on each other, either.

Re: clerics researching new spells. Presumably, all spells in the standard book were researched and invented at one point, yes? I mean, unless we're presuming that the very first world created by the very first gods had a standard spell list baked in.

ebarde

2021-03-17, 03:43 PM

I still am struggling to wrap my head around Xykon's part in the endgame of the comic, I really don't see it just being "Welp, I guess my whole plan was a lie so I'll just kill everyone now". Like, he's the big bad of the comic, and it would be weird if he didn't really had an achievable scheme or win condition of some kind.

bunsen_h

2021-03-17, 03:45 PM

That’s how the gods feel!

I mean, another gate won’t be on this world. This world will be destroyed. But this isn’t the last gate. There will always be more prisons for the snarl.

They can always make more prisons... for some value of "always", assuming that the Snarl never gets out of control so quickly that they don't have the reserves of worship-power to survive the interregnum. But the current world/prison has the unprecedented potential to let them permanently bind the Snarl, thanks to the new quiddity of the Dark One. That raises the stakes, and gives them a stronger reason not to let this world be destroyed than for any of the gazillion previous worlds.

elros

2021-03-17, 03:53 PM

Honestly, I'm really hating Serini with each new page here. This is a credit to Rich I guess making a character feel real despite acting so insufferably infuriating.

Everyone has made compelling cases as to why what she's doing makes sense based on what she knows. But even on the logic of letting an evil overlord take over instead of letting reality come undone, it comes across as evil at worst or just plain apathetic/neutral at best. She is doing things on her own, thinks she knows best, and will probably just make things worse, just like her fellow Order fo the Scribble teammates. And as we've seen time and time again in TOotS, that hubris always comes to bite the ass down HARD.
So far Serini has successfully kept Team Evil from getting anywhere close to the final gate. Even knowing what is at stake, OOTS is not doing a great job of keeping the final gate safe. If OOTS had not come around, Redcloak would not have realized that the doors were marked incorrectly (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1221.html).
Besides, if Xykon and Redcloak reach the final gate, it is more likely that Redcloak will be able to give control of the gate to the Dark One, and not Xykon that rules the world. And Serini may actually be sympathetic to the Dark One, because she agrees that certain species are treated poorly in this world.
I think the best outcome is Serini and Redcloak talk, because she is more likely to convince him to work with the gods than anyone else.

arverst_aegnar

2021-03-17, 03:56 PM

While she has a point, i think Serini is missing (or ignoring) that the paladins have a point, too. The question of "destroy the Gate or let Xykon have it", especially when talking about 2 or 3 of 5, is not an objectively binary, good/evil, right/wrong one. That life under Emperor Xykon would be better than destruction does not make it not abjectly terrible. Her comment about monstrous races seems a bit shortsighted too in light of a) Xykon's attitudes towards anyone not named Xykon, and b) injustice redirected is not really an improvement. Serini disagrees with the paladins'/Order's decision to stake everything on the last confrontation, which is fine. She seems to think it's so clearly the right choice that she doesn't need to hear their side, which is not.

If i lived in the OOTS verse, i don't know that i'd take the "someone will eventually defeat Xykon" gamble. The universe may run on Narrativium, but tragedy and cosmic horror are legitimate narratives, and only a third of the gods are explicitly Good.

bunsen_h

2021-03-17, 04:00 PM

So far Serini has successfully kept Team Evil from getting anywhere close to the final gate. Even knowing what is at stake, OOTS is not doing a great job of keeping the final gate safe. If OOTS had not come around, Redcloak would not have realized that the doors were marked incorrectly (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1221.html).

It's a good bet that as soon as they ran through enough of the doors that they were hard to keep track of, if any of the other doors were actually connected to the gate, Serini would have marked it/them too.

KorvinStarmast

2021-03-17, 04:04 PM

I think the strip suggests that Serini didn't scry or observe the Gates; she believes the paladins are responsible for the destruction of all of them (which makes sense.
No, it doesn't make sense. Lirian's gate was destroyed well before the gate in Dungeon Crawling Fools was. Serini's blaming it all on Paladins is one place where she's simply wrong.

And of course Serini doesn't know about Redcloak's Plan -- because only two people on earth know it, and the only reason the Order knows is because a god directly told it to Durkon. Yep, her partial information does pose some problems.
I'm pretty excited to see where Punisher Frodo goes. Heh, that made me laugh. :smallcool:

Isn't someone trying to topple Xykon when he had control of a gate how this whole thing(OotS not the prequels) started in the first place? That doesn't seem like a good premise on which to base the security of the WHOLE FRICKING WORLD! :) Best of luck getting anyone 'in-universe' to listen to you, though. They have their own agendas. :smallconfused:

Serini is counting on Xykon being incompetent and chaotic enough to eventually lose, but competent and careful enough to be trusted not to blow up the gate. When you put it that way, it's not a very comforting thought for the rest of OoTSland.

Because that really is what is going to happen. She’s figured it out correctly. The gates (and the rest of the world) really will be destroyed to prevent Xykon and Redcloak from taking control and performing their ritual. What she doesn’t know - the missing piece of information - is she doesn’t know WHO is going to destroy the gates. She thinks it’s paladins or adventurers or whatever. She’s wrong about who. All of the gods, working together, are planning to destroy the gate (and the rest of the world along with it) to prevent Xykon from taking control. And she’s not going to prevent that with her amnesia potions. Not a bad take on the situation.

She is doing things on her own, thinks she knows best, and will probably just make things worse, just like her fellow Order fo the Scribble teammates. And as we've seen time and time again in TOotS, that hubris always comes to bite the ass down HARD. Why on OoTSearth would epic level characters be subject to hubris? :smallbiggrin:

All of the discussion about whether the Order can or can't defeat Xykon leaves out one potential scenario: Redcloak. The Order could definitely defeat Xykon if Redcloak were helping them. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to think of a scenario where Xykon and Redcloak turn on each other, either. Someone a bit more adept at diplomacy than Durkon, such as Haley, might need to try their hand at making another run at Redcloak once {something} happens.

This just gave me a thought.
MiTD eats Redcloak. (per Xykon's plan)

The gods can't control the snarl. The PCs, at the end of this story, decide that the gods will never save them, nor save their world. And so the whole Order goes off after they defeat Xykon and IFCC - each to their separate parts of OoTS world, and they dedicate the rest of their lives to making OoTS-world a fairer, better world one heart and mind at a time.

Unlike the Scribblers, the Order in their post-adventuring career never stop working towards that end - a fairer, better OoTS world, as long as they draw breath.

Because that's how lasting change happens. Somebody has to care, and one of the things that makes Roy our Hero for this story is that He Cares.