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LumenPlacidum
2021-03-17, 08:22 PM
Breaking Face
A Guide to Heavyweight Monks

The monk in Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition is a puzzle. It can be difficult to include the class as an ingredient in a build because the ki mechanic is sticky. Ki makes it so that, whatever the ability was that made you think monk was good for you, if you just keep going in monk, then you'll be able to use that option more regularly. I see people talking about how monks can Flurry of Blows at level 5, and they can use Stunning Strike with every attack, and gosh! how many Constitution saving throws does Mr. Baddy have to make? See how effective we are? Not really. You just laid out all five of your ki points in one round. Now... you're a generic martial character with poor AC. You'll have a bonus action attack, but that's no different to anyone using Polearm Master, Dual Weapon Fighting, or the like, and your damage dice are almost always worse than other martials!

I posit that dumping a lot of ki points all at once is a luxury, and not a build goal. Yes, if you're fighting the big bad mage at the end of the campaign, then maybe it's worth forcing them to make a pile of Constitution saving throws or be stunned, since the stunning is likely to get your team a free turn, which has a solid chance of just letting you win you the fight. But, only if they don't have support. I'm going to support a different tack in this guide. It's something that makes the monk less MAD (one of the common complaints about it) and opens up some multiclassing options that didn't really exist prior -- namely, building for Strength and wearing armor. I am going to use the term featherweight monk to refer to the unarmored, Dexterity-based monk, and I'll use the term heavyweight monk to refer to the fully-armored, Strength-based monk.

Color Scheme: Bad, Pretty Bad, Okay, Good, and Excellent!



Class Features
Multiclassing - I think it should be mentioned that I do not typically suggest going full monk, especially if you are going to deny one of the core assumptions of the class. Mixing in some secret sauce from other classes that are designed to allow for this different play style will make the character stronger. However, I am going to be building for primarily monk. There is little reason to go above level 14. Maybe an Astral Self monk might be tempted by their subclass capstone at 17, but there's always a little room for multiclassing.

Unarmored Defense - Unarmored Defense is something of a trap. It requires a huge investment of character build to get both Dexterity and Wisdom to high levels. The best armor class you can reliably start with as a light monk is 16, which is barely sufficient for a melee character. Many classes can start with chain mail, which offers the same, but with no investiture of ability scores at all. You're probably thinking "No! There's a Strength requirement for that heavy armor." Yes, there is. And, I would suggest getting Strength to compensate for that. However, I also want to point out what it means to not have that Strength: You lose 10 feet of movement. Now, this is bad! Movement is clutch for melee characters to get stuck-in. But, it's not exactly world-ending. Besides, getting 13 or 15 Strength is much easier than getting 16 Dex and 16 Wis to get comparable AC at level 1. And, there are far more abilities that support improving AC when you have AC-providing equipment than when you do not. Moreover, a lot of those options that work when you don't have armor also work when you do.

The reason why I've made this ability orange instead of red is that it is pretty commonplace to have moments when you are without your armor. If your party is ambushed at night, you might be naked. So, this feature will sometimes add a little bit to your AC.

Martial Arts - In choosing to wear armor, we lose this feature. For many monks, this is the reason they took the class! The primary benefit of this is a bonus action attack that adds an ability score to the damage. We give that up. This makes the heavyweight monk significantly more free in terms of bonus actions than a typical monk, who is likely to spend turn after turn making bonus unarmed strike attacks, one at a time. In addition to losing the bonus action attack, we are going to be losing the ability to use Dex for our attacks (whatever), but also we're downgrading our unarmed strikes to 1 damage each! We do not intend to completely ignore unarmed strikes, although... you could! The ability to Dodge as a bonus action using ki is a pretty solid use of a bonus action if you're fighting a tough opponent. But, I will assume that we still intend to do some punching, kicking, and breaking faces with our bare hands. As a result, you are going to want another way to re-introduce an unarmed strike die, either with a race choice or with the Unarmed Fighting style. What's really sad is that, even if you only get a d4 from a race, that's not really that far behind the Martial Arts die for most of the character's career...

Once again, I've made this orange instead of red. You might not always be in your armor and be carrying weapons. If a fight breaks out in a party when you were dressed in your tux or gown and without a weapon, then this ability comes back into play.

Unarmored Movement - I feel the loss of this ability most of all. It hurts being slower! The lack of movement speed changes the role of the character from a hit-and-run skirmishing character to a get-stuck-in brute/tank. That's ok, you'll have the AC to handle that.

It's unclear whether or not the ability to run up walls and over water at 9th level is denied by wearing armor. I'd interpret that it is not, but you should ask your DM.

Ki - This is the true power of the monk. Successfully building a monk depends on finding cost-effective uses of your ki points! You start out with not many of them. If you've built for cost-effective options, then you will find that later monk levels give you plenty of ki points. If you want to bleed four ki points every turn with stuns and flurries and whatever, then you're never going to have enough! I think spending one ki point a turn for fights that look like they need it is not a waste. You'll run out fast at early levels, but at early levels you are essentially going to be hitting as hard as most martials anyway.

It should be mentioned that Flurry of Blows does not require that you be unarmored. With this, we mitigate the pain of losing the bonus action attack from Martial Arts, and we smile because when we're using this, we're just going to be better than a featherweight monk. The point becomes arguable at much later levels, when the Martial Arts die catches up with many weapon dice.

Never discount Patient Defense! If you are surrounded by foes and you have a very solid AC, the ability to impose disadvantage is amazing! If you go with a Barbarian dip, then this can be used to mitigate the problem of using Reckless Attack, but that's probably not necessary.

Step of the Wind - is fine. There are going to be some options that will lessen the importance of this, but this is a fine way to be able to close the distance, which is a weakness of the heavyweight monk (no Unarmored Speed boost, remember?). You might consider that it's not worth spending a ki point to close with an enemy. I'm going to point out that once you have Extra Attack, that ki point to Dash as a bonus action is going to get you your 2 attacks with a greatsword or whatever. If you're comfortable using a ki point to get 2 attacks with your unarmed strikes via Flurry, then you must recognize that doing so for greatsword damage is just better, right?

Dedicated Weapon - You will probably never use this optional feature. When you don't have your armor, making this relevant, you'll frequently not have your weapons either. For some subclasses, they will combine this with Ki-Fueled attack and it becomes pretty decent.

Deflect Missiles is circumstantial, but can be okay unless you have some other way to use your reaction. Don't throw the weapon back unless you DM rules that you can use Strength to do so.

Ki-Fueled Attack - This feature is good in concert with Focused Aim below. It can become a vital component of a monk build when using elemental disciplines from Way of the Four Elements or blasts of ki energy with Way of the Sun Soul (anything that lets you use ki as part of your Action not being the Attack action).

Slow Fall - It probably won't come up often, but it's pretty useful when it does.

Quickened Healing - God help you if this is looking appealing. It's no worse for a heavyweight than for a featherweight, but it's still pretty bad.

Extra Attack - Of course, attacks are the bread and butter of martial characters, and you're no exception. This is even better for you than for other monks because you're going to be making better use of your Attack action attacks than most monks will due to the fact that you're very sensibly attacking with a weapon!

Stunning Strike - You aren't going to be making a lot of use for this extremely ki-hungry ability. Nevertheless, this can be used whether you're punching someone in the gut or cleaving with a greataxe. You may have sacrificed some Wisdom for the sake of multiclassing. If not, then this is better.

Focused Aim - Missing sucks. Rather than taking the shotgun approach of most monks, which is to attack 4 times and just accept that only two are going to hit, you can hit way more often with this ability. Now, this ability is also extremely ki-hungry! It's worse than Stunning Strike in that regard! Or... is it? Spending the ki point with Stunning Strike gives you the chance that your target will be stunned. You get to see exactly what the cost and effect will be when you use Focused Aim. You attack a foe, getting a 17 and missing. You are pretty confident that if you add a ki point to get +2 to-hit, you'll hit. Well, then you should probably do that! If you're not sure, then don't do it! Accuracy is one of the main factors affecting damage output! People seriously downplay it a lot. For tiers I and II, you are typically cutting your expected damage in half when you account for accuracy! It becomes less of a problem in later levels.

Once you have this ability, it is very likely that the best decision-tree on your turn is to make the Attack action, getting two attacks with a weapon. If you miss with either attack, and you believe yourself to be 1 ki-point away from hitting, then you should spend 1 ki point on Focused Aim to hit with that weapon attack. Then, because yo uspent a ki point as part of your action, you get to use Ki-Fueled Attack to get a free attack with unarmed strike or with a monk weapon (which could be a Versatile Longsword for 1d10!). If you miss by more than that, Flurry of Blows. If you hit? Flurry of Blows. But, the option to get a partial flurry in with Ki-Fueled Attack and Focused Aim is effective!

Ki-Empowered Strikes - Yes please, and let's hopefully always do full damage.

Evasion - You aren't going to be passing Dex saves a lot, but you don't really need to! You take half damage regardless, which is what everyone else in your party who passes the save is taking! Good show!

Stillness of Mind - People seem to tout abilities like this a lot, and maybe they're playing different games than me. I almost never see this sort of thing come up. Still, I guess it's useful if you need it.

Purity of Body - Immunities are nice. Now I guess you could poison your weapons and not have to worry as much about harming yourself, but that's probably a waste of gold.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon - It's an interesting ribbon, but ribbons after a 13-level investment feel kinda bad, no?

Diamond Soul - Wow, this is good! If you're taking monk up to a high level, this ability is probably why! Otherwise, you'd secure a reasonable amount of ki and bail.

Timeless Body - Just about the only purpose of this, mechanically, is to make a ghost's ability to age you irrelevant. It's the kind of ability that would matter immensely to the character and not very much to the player.

Empty Body - This is pretty great. It's essentially a Concentration-less greater invisibility that also gives you the damage resistance akin to a Bear-totem Barbarian. It would be sky blue if it happened before 18th level.

Perfect Self - What did you do! Why are you rolling initiative after having spent TWENTY ki points or more already today?! You've done something wrong.



The big picture of the class abilities is that it's great to get to level 5 Monk. Going a little more for more reliable use of ki powers is probably a good idea depending on your subclass. So, for the heavyweight monk, I think I'd identify levels 5 (extra attack, focused aim), 6 (subclass feature, ki-empowered strikes), 8 (asi), 11 (subclass feature), or 14 (diamond soul) as the multiclass breakpoints. Most of the time, I'm going to go to level 8 or 11, securing a solid foundation in ki points and not diving into the several-level gulf that leads to Diamond Soul.



Subclasses
Not all of the monk subclasses are going to match well with the heavyweight monk playstyle, but you might be surprised to discover which ones are better and which ones are worse.



Way of the Astral Self
One of the key points of this subclass is that it grants you the ability to use Wisdom for Strength stuff and for Unarmed Strikes. This interacts with the rules for armor proficiency in an interesting way. The rules allow anyone to wear armor. All that happens if you wear armor with which you are not proficient is that you have disadvantage on Strength checks and saves (which just became Wisdom-based for you...), disadvantage on Dexterity checks and saves (you're dumping Dexterity anyway, and you eventually get Evasion to mitigate failing Dex saves), disadvantage on Strength-based or Dexterity-based attack rolls (you're using Wisdom now...) and you cannot cast spells (which you don't). This means that a Way of the Astral Self monk has no significant penalty for wearing armor with which it is not proficient beyond those imposed by the lack of a Martial Arts die. Now, it might not strictly-speaking be Strength-based, but such a character would have more in common with a heavyweight monk than a featherweight monk! You would need to select a race that will give you a damage die (see the Races section below), and maybe one that will get around the fact that you probably don't have the Strength for your armor (so, dwarf or something that starts with a faster movement speed in the first place).

The end result of this is that you actually don't need to multiclass to be a heavyweight Astral monk. However! You have made all of the sacrifices to be a heavyweight monk and you have gotten none of the benefits other than being SAD. You are likely going to be making four attacks with a 1d4 or 1d6 attack die (maybe 1d8 if you take the Unarmed Fighting style). It... could be good.

However, I would still choose to multiclass. I'd probably take one level of Cleric. Choosing the War domain would get you the Divine Favor spell, which boosts your damage reasonably well.

Arms of the Astral Self - Obviously, this is the key reason to take this subclass--you are now SAD with Wisdom. This means you can either go all-in on monk and actually get feats, or you can use this as an easier way to break away from the class earlier. You could multiclass with Cleric after level 3 or 5 to get enough ki points to be able to use the arms, attack with the arms at reach with Wisdom, be proficient with your armor and thus be allowed to cast your Cleric spells with it on, and use Spiritual Weapon instead of monk bonus attacks. You don't need Ki-Empowered strikes since the damage you deal is force damage. Going to level 6 isn't a terrible way for a Cleric to get the ability to see in magical darkness.

You should know that you are probably going to be getting less damage with this option than with some of the other heavyweight monks. But, you might get better versatility.

Visage of the Astral Self - The best thing here is the ability to see in magical darkness. This allows such a character to operate very nicely in a party that uses this strategy. Again, this makes it more useful to be able to mix this with spells.

Body of the Astral Self - If you've gone this far, then you're leaning in! The ability to deflect energy will come up quite a bit! You only have circumstantial opportunities for your reaction anyway, so another one just increases the chances that one will be useful.

The Empowered Arms ability remains as useful for a heavyweight Astral Monk as it does for a featherweight. You still have a Martial Arts die! You just don't get to replace normal Unarmed Strike damage with it. Once per turn getting +1d8 isn't excellent, but it's pretty welcome. If you're in a party using magical darkness, you might just have advantage on all of your attacks. With four attacks in a round, assuming you don't have Elven Accuracy, your chances of critting on one of them are about 33%, so you have a good shot at being able to double this die as well.

Awakened Astral Self - An extra +2 to Armor Class even when we already have excellent AC? Thank you very much! Bonuses to AC become more relevant when your AC is already high, so this is great! 5 ki points isn't crippling when you have so many. And, the ability to attack 5 times per round instead of 4 is a solid boost to damage. If you chose some way to get bonus damage per attacks (cleric dip, gaining Hex or Hunter's Mark with a feat), then having that bonus apply five times is, of course, pretty nice.



Way of the Drunken Master
I said that Ki was the ultimate strength of the monk, and that finding efficient ways to spend your limited pool of ki was how to ensure that you made an effective monk. The Way of the Drunken Master makes your ki more efficient and also leverages your excellent AC! This is a great match for the heavyweight monk!

Bonus Proficiencies - As ribbon abilities go, this one isn't bad, since it's actually two proficiencies. Even so, it's hard to imagine a lot of scenarios where your skill at brewing beer is going to matter a lot in a mechanical way.

Drunken Technique - Once you get this ability, with a single ki point on your turn you get 2 extra attacks, a free Disengage, and bonus movement. This might make it so that you can close the distance to the target and get your full sequence of attacks off! It could make it so that you bob and weave to the target that absolutely has to die. Efficiency is king when it comes to ki points, and the fact that this just layers more stuff onto a ki expenditure without increasing or replacing the cost is excellent.

Tipsy Sway - The ability to stand from prone for 5 feet of movement is okay. The ability to turn a missed attack against you into an auto-hit against someone else changes the way your monk is going to approach battle for the rest of its career! It is a simple fact that when you are a monk, everything hits harder than you do. You get your damage from a plurality of attacks, not from big hits! But! A lot of foes offer attacks that do twenty, thirty, even fifty points of damage! The ability to say "Ah, you missed my stupidly-high armor class. Hit your friend instead." is amazing. That you can do this 6 times per day when you first get it is silly. You're probably going to do this once or twice per day given how you're going to be Flurrying all the time. As you level up, this ability scales marvelously, as monster damage scales fast, but monster to-hit bonuses don't. If you have +1 full plate (maybe from a forge cleric dip), a shield, and the defensive fighting style (maybe from a fighter dip), then you have an AC of 22. A fire giant has an excellent to-hit bonus and has a 50% chance of hitting you and attacks twice. You expect to be able to use this against one of the fire giant's attacks each turn, dealing 6d6+7 damage to someone else nearby. Make sure there's someone else nearby!

Drunkard's Luck - This is sort of like a poor man's Devil Sight for your own attacks. If you are in Darkness or a Fog Coud, then you can cancel your disadvantage and just be left with the advantage from the fact that your opponent can't see you. Getting advantage on all of your attacks is great!

Intoxicated Frenzy - If only this weren't at level 17, it would be truly amazing. As it is, having seven attacks in a round can be great, especially if you have something from a feat boosting your attack damage. If you are a Monk 17, Barbarian 2, Fighter 1 with Hex from a feat, then you might be doing 7 attacks at 1d8+1d6+7 each, all made with advantage with a +11 bonus to-hit. That comes to an expected damage of 101 against AC 18 opponents. That's very good damage, even at level 20. This probably isn't strong enough to motivate you to continue in monk to this point, though.

All in all, I'd probably take a Drunken Master monk out to level 8. It mixes well with classes that make you harder to hit. I could imagine taking a Drunken Master monk to level 6 and only using ki for the reaction to turn aside blows.



Way of the Four Elements
People poo-poo the elemental monk, and they have since the PHB. It falls apart in a couple of ways, but it mostly has to do with a failure of synergy between the base monk abilities and the subclass abilities as well as being highly ki-inefficient. However, the Way of the Four Elements monk provides some interesting options to a heavyweight monk build. With the addition of the optional class feature Ki-Fueled Strike, when you spend ki on one of the elemental disciplines as an action, you get to make a free attack afterwards. You could be using a longsword and designating it as a monk weapon, in which case you get an attack with that.

Maybe if WotC had expanded the list of elemental disciplines as they had Battlemaster maneuvers and spells, then this class would have been better. A heavyweight monk is likely to have a weaker Wisdom than a featherweight monk, making their saving throw DCs lower, and rendering this class even less useful. It could be useful with a low-level dip (say, 3 to 5 levels) in monk, to grab utiities like Shape the Flowing River, which provides high-level battlefield terrain manipulation at low levels, but requires you to be fighting on a lake or something.



Way of the Kensei

I think Kensei is one of the hardest monk subclasses to build for. It has conflicts between concept and execution. A kensei, or 'sword saint' is good with a melee combatant, right? Well, they can be, but most of their offensive abilities are built around ranged attacks. They get the ability to defend themselves when wielding a kensei weapon, but... only if they're attacking with unarmed strikes.

From the standpoint of ki and action efficiency, kensei is excellent, since they only have two options that use ki points. One of them is a pre-combat or first-turn bonus action, and the other is an on-hit non-action. If only... they were good options.

Kensei Weapons is pretty dumb. It does let you get proficiency with the longbow, but we're a heavyweight monk! We don't have Dexterity! The designation of a monk weapon might be nice except that the primary reason to do that is to be able to apply your Martial Arts die to the weapon, which doesn't work for heavyweight monks.

Agile Parry - One option is to wield a weapon and attack only with your unarmed strikes, for +2 AC. Bonus armor is great, but the heavyweight monk doesn't have a great die for unarmed damage. However, using a shield, plate armor, and a kensei weapon, and kneeing someone in the crotch does provide you with 22 AC.

Kensei's Shot - This is an option for the character who will ignore unarmed damage completely! However, ranged weapons require Dexterity again, making it a little odd for the heavyweight. You could go with a pile of thrown weapons, and make two attacks with a thrown weapon using Extra Attack for something like 1d6+1d4+5 each. This allows for some multiclassing benefits, like the use of the Dueling and Thrown fighting styles, for as much as 1d6+1d4+9 damage per hit, twice. Then, you could even draw a javelin for the bonus AC from Agile Parry? I guess if you want a heavyweight javelin thrower for a character, this lets you do that and be ok with it? You don't need to go very far in terms of level to get this benefit.

Way of the Brush - Ribbon

Magic Kensei Weapons - Pretty solid, especially in a low-magic game.

Deft Strike - I think the designer wanted to give kenseis something to do with their ki, and so they dumped this crappy ability on the subclass. It's a mini (very, very mini) smite that costs a ki point. Pass.

Sharpen the Blade - Ok, so here is a way to get the maximum of +3 to-hit and damage from a magical weapon, but without actually needing to find such a weapon. I don't deny that this is a good ability. Once again, it's not synergistic with using unarmed strikes to attack.

Unerring Accuracy - Hahahaha, a single reroll per turn is fine for an attack roll, but at level 17? This is your subclass capstone? No.

Please, unless doing something odd with ranged attacks, don't take Kensei past level 3. It's a splash subclass. It's better for featherweights than for heavyweights, because then they can focus on using a longbow, or, better yet, a hand crossbow. Go Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter and all that good stuff. Then, replace your hand crossbow damage with a Martial Die. Go up to level 11 for the +3 to attack and damage plus getting a d8. It's not for heavyweights.



Way of the Long Death

I don't see people talk about this subclass often. It's not great, but it does have some good abilities. Moreover, its abilities are good for ki efficiency, except for the capstone.

Touch of Death - This lets you gain temporary hit points (honestly, quite a few!) when you drop someone. When combined with a barbarian dip for resistances, the thp last longer. Dropping things to 0 hp was probably something you wanted to do anyway, and there's no cost for this. So, this is the height of action economy and ki economy. Free. For something that's useful.

Hour of Reaping - Cool ability name! Has no synergy with the rest of anything else that you have. It makes you more survivable, which I suppose is the mechanical point, which is great given that you already have solid AC. You're debuffing all of the enemies to give them disadvantage on attacks while they can see you. But, it doesn't let you deal any damage with it. However, there is no limit to how often you can do this! It's a little like the Enchanter wizard's Hypnotic Gaze. However, while the wizard really appreciates the option to do something useful when out of spells, the monk feels kind of bad that he's just standing there flipping off the enemies and otherwise doing nothing while his party slaughters these foes who can barely fight back.

Mastery of Death - This ability is hilarious. You have 11 ki points at this level, and let us say that half of those are going towards using Flurry of Blows. Then, 5 times, you can Relentless Endurance. That's insane. It's not great if you're being targeted by a thousand mooks, but that's why you have good AC. The reason you want this is so that when the dragon drops you with its 100-damage breath weapon, you can just say "nope" and stay at 1. The staying power that this affords you is ridiculous!

Touch of the Long Death - This does good damage, but is too ki-hungry. Still, 10 ki points for a potential 20d10 damage is a lot of damage. I suppose if you can't spend 'em fast enough (and as a level 17 Long Death monk, I could imagine not being able to do more than 7 flurries in a day), then this lets you hit like a ton of bricks once.



Way of Mercy
This subclass is usually pretty solid, but is much worse in the hands of a character who plans to use more weapon attacks and fewer unarmed strikes. A heavyweight monk could take the Unarmed Fighting fighting style and not use a shield to have 1d8 damage for all of their attacks, and then be able to get extra damage reliably from attacking with that. But, if that's the build goal, then it might be better to just go with a featherweight monk.

If you do want to do a heavyweight monk build with this subclass, it gets much better at level 11, when you can get the Hands of Harm for free on a flurry of blows attack. At that point it becomes as good as many other options for a heavyweight.

Implements of Mercy - Wow, three bonus proficiencies with this subclass? And, they might even be useful? That's pretty solid.

Hands of Healing - The relative benefit of healing goes up with the resilience of the recipient. Since you are a heavyweight monk with good AC, being able to heal in place of a Flurry attack might be useful. This is especially true because then you become a yoyo healer extraordinaire! Someone goes down and you hardly have a hiccup in your offense in order to bring them back up.

Hands of Harm - There isn't great synergy between having boosted your ability to attack with weapons and gaining benefits on attacking unarmed. However, you will have the opportunity to use Hands of Harm a lot even if you're only making unarmed strikes with you Flurry of Blows. The only problem is, is 1d4+2 or 1d6+2 or 1d6+3 actually worth another ki point? Maybe. If your sole reason for using ki is to inflict damage, then frontloading that damage in a hard fight could get a foe out of the fight a little faster. Heck, feel free to wait for crits before you decide to use this ability. That's how I'd do it. Then it's definitely worth it.

Physician's Touch - You get to remove some terrible conditions without a roll and/or apply a highly debilitating condition when you use Hands of Harm with no additional cost. This ability is great! If only there weren't so many things immune to the poisoned condition, it might be sky blue.

Flurry of Healing and Harm - Let's assume that you go with the healing (keeping in mind that you might do both on the same turn). At this point you are a Strength-based martial with good AC who regenerates for something like 2d8+4 every round as a bonus action. Put that in with a splash of Barbarian for damage resistance and you will likely never go down. You won't be dealing a ton of damage, but your staying power is epic.

Otherwise, now Hands of Harm has no opportunity cost! Excellent!

Hands of Ultimate Mercy - Death revival. I guess it's better on the character whom you can be pretty sure is going to survive. It's ok, I guess.



Way of the Open Hand
There's no doubt that the ability to knock people over and back is fun. This subclass is pretty much as good for a heavyweight monk as for a featherweight. Any of these subclasses about making Flurry more effective benefit the character as much one way as the other.

Open Hand Technique - There are a lot of people who are proponents of getting Shield Master to be able to prone targets with a bonus action so that you can wail on them with your weapon with advantage to hit. Well, this ability lets you do damage while you go and lets you try twice with each Flurry of Blows bonus action! The downside is that it's a saving throw instead of an ability check. Still, this could prevent you from wanting a Barbarian dip for Reckless Attack. If you consider a Greatsword-wielding Centaur Fighter 1, Cleric 1, Monk 5 with the Way of the Open Hand and Str 18, Wis 16, that character is going to be using Flurry of Blows to try to prone its target before swinging its greatsword. Against a typical dummy target (AC 18, +4 to saves), they would have an expected damage with this strategy of 27.74. This is almost 4 times the level of the character, which is excellent.

Of course, with party members dropping hazard spells, you have the ability to choose instead to try to golf-swing your foes into them.

Wholeness of Body - It's good to have, but not as good as a lot of other abilities.

Tranquility - Sanctuary is good, but usually to save someone from dying. It's not a great way to start your day. You're going to attack an enemy pretty much as soon as you can.

Quivering Palm - It's pretty ki-efficient, it does a pile of damage if the target saves, it's a good ability! Shame that you had to wade through all the other abilities of the subclass to get to this.



Way of the Shadow
This subclass is a stealthy infiltrator scout of excellence. However, going with a heavyweight monk degrades your stealth advantage here to some degree. You're likely to have disadvantage on stealth checks due to armor. However, with this class you can literally be invisible, silent, and teleport around from shadow to shadow, never even crossing into the open.

This subclass in particular welcomes multiclassing. Rogue of course is the standard for good combinations here. Rogues don't have to be Dexterity-based in the same way that monk doesn't have to be. You can use a finesse weapon with Strength and get sneak attack. The advantage on a melee attack made after Shadow Stepping promotes the use of a single attack option.

The subclass suffers from no significant damage improvement over base monk, assuming that you have some other way to give yourself advantage on attacks. So, you are forced into other options to get greater impact in combat.

Shadow Arts - You get a good cantrip and the ability to spend 2 ki to cast Darkness, Darkvision, Pass without Trace, or Silence. Now, these are some pretty good spells. Pass without Trace is superb, and would probably feel extraneous on a featherweight shadow monk. On a heavyweight, it helps to offset the stealth penalty of having heavy armor plus no Dex... Darkvision is a very useful spell, but Darkness isn't that great because you cannot see through it. Spending a feat to take Eldritch Adept for Devil's Sight will help you out a lot.

If you are in a situation where the ability to use Darkness offensively is viable (i.e. you're alone and have the ability to mitigate the effect on yourself, or you're in a party that can all mitigate the effect), then Shadow Arts becomes an excellent way to give yourself or your party almost carte-blanche advantage on all of your attacks. It's nice to have a pseudo-caster character be the one focusing on the Darkness, since it's a Concentration spell and your main casters are going to want to concentrate on other things. Not only that, but as a character with a pile of attacks to unload, advantage might have greater effect on you than on anyone else. If you are a level 1 fighter / level 5 monk half-orc with the unarmed fighting style and Eldritch Adept for Devil's Sight, then in Darkness you can do 2x Greataxe +6 to-hit for 1d12+3 and 2x Unarmed Strike +6 to-hit for 1d6+3, with advantage on the attacks. That's 26.22 damage per round against a dummy target. This is not that much better than a barbarian who is also attacking with advantage on their attacks, but it needs to be said that this dramatically improves your defense as well, rather than hampering it, like Reckless Attack will.

Shadow Step - Who cares that you might have slowed down from donning heavy armor when you just teleport around everywhere anyway? Unfortunately, you have to be able to see where you're going, which means you really can't use the Darkness spell to provide a gate-able dark area. That you get advantage on the first melee attack you make after teleporting is an ok offensive option, especially for a character who has traded lots of attacks for heavier-hitting attacks, which is what the heavyweight monk does. This ability is good enough to build the character around it. The ability works on any melee attack, not specifying weapon or spell. Getting to level 6 and then proceeding with Cleric could give you a better ability to land such things as Booming Blade (Arcana cleric), Inflict Wounds, or Contagion.

Of course, this also mixes well with Sneak Attack, which can only happen once per turn anyway. A Strength-based Rogue gets Expertise, which could make you a very solid grappling character. I would probably halt in this subclass at this point.

Cloak of Shadows - Invisibility with an action is nice, especially when there's no duration on it. You could sleep invisibly each night. It's Concentration-less. Get someone to cast Breath of the Dragon on you and just run around doing breath-weapon damage. It will never break your invisibility. The only reason I'm not rating this higher is because you don't really have a lot of options to take advantage of your invisibility. Still, I love the fact that this doesn't require a ki point!

Opportunist - A reaction attack when something is struck next to you is, once again, great for a rogue. Unfortunately, if you got here, you have a maximum of 3 levels of rogue. Sad trombone. You are doing more damage with each attack than a featherweight monk, but not by enough to make 17 levels of monk good.



Way of the Sun Soul
There is precious-little synergy between this subclass and going with a heavyweight monk. This subclass can completely ignore unarmed strike damage.

Radiant Sun Bolt - This attack explicitly uses Dexterity, and since it's a spell attack, there aren't any mechanisms to switch it to anything else. One thing that might be interesting is that the attack is not impacted by wearing armor in any way. But, that doesn't mean that you can get away with not taking Dexterity, since the attack requires it.

Searing Arc Strike - Casting Burning Hands as a bonus action after swinging a greatsword twice could do some reasonably good damage. At 6th level, when you get this, you're probably attacking with +7 to-hit twice for 2d6+4 damage, and you have a save DC of 14. Against my standard dummy target, this would yield an expected damage of 21.85, which is actually pretty good. It quickly drops off in efficacy and efficiency.

Searing Sunburst Whatever. The ability to do long-range 20-ft-radius radiant damage turn after turn forever is good. If you spend a ki point to boost the damage, you can do a Ki-Fueled Strike with a ranged monk weapon if you want. Not worth it, but still if you happen to be here...

Sun Shield - So... a persistent Daylight spell with a sad reaction as a 17th level ability? Wow. That's bad.

LumenPlacidum
2021-03-17, 08:22 PM
Races

You have some very definite goals to achieve with your race! Race is one of the primary ways to get an unarmed strike damage die that doesn't depend on the Martial Arts ability! The races that get an unarmed strike die are:

Aarakocra (1d4+Str)
Centaur (1d4+Str)
Dragonborn (1d4+Str, with a racial feat)
Leonin (1d4+Str)
Lizardfolk (1d6+Str)
Longtooth Shifter (1d6+Str, only when Shifted)
Minotaur (1d6+Str)
Naga (1d4+Str plus poison or 1d6+Str plus restraining... probably OP)
Satyr (1d4+Str)
Simic Hybrid (1d6+Str plus bonus grapple)
Tabaxi (1d4+Str)
Tortle (1d4+Str)

with special mention of Variant Human and Custom Legacy which can both take Fighting Adept feat and select the Unarmed Fighting fighting style for (1d6+Str or 1d8+Str when not using another weapon or shield) or take the Tavern Brawler feat for (1d4+Str)

Another way to get a damage die here is through the use of the Natural Weapons option of the Alter Self spell available to Artificers, Sorcerers and Wizards. (1d6+Str with a +1 bonus to attack and damage; explicitly magical)

I'm going to review each of these races first.

Races with natural weapon support

Aarakocra are bad! What? But, Aarakocra! Their flight only works when wearing no heavier than light armor. And... there goes the main benefit of the race. They're great featherweight monks, but awful heavyweight monks.

Centaur are excellent! A faster base movement speed helps to alleviate potential problems with losing Unarmored Speed. The Charge ability partially replaces the lost bonus action attack from Martial Arts for turns where you don't want to spend a ki point for Flurry of Blows. A proficiency is always welcome, and the Equine Build feature (penalty?) is mostly mitigated by the Unarmored Speed improvement at Monk 9, if you go that far. +2 Strength / +1 Wisdom is probably what you want no matter whether you're using the Tasha's swaps or not! They're perfectly situated to take advantage of this build style.

Dragonborn are pretty bad. To get a racial unarmed strike die, they have to take a feat. That feat is a half-feat, which can improve Strength. This is good! That feat gives you AC 13+Dexterity, which is not useful for a heavyweight monk. That feat gives only a d4 for unarmed damage. Altogether, this is pretty weak, especially at the price of your race and a feat. You also get the racial breath weapon and energy resistance, but neither of these are particularly important.

Leonin are okay options for a heavyweight monk. They get a proficiency, a slightly faster speed, and 1d4+Str claws. They are pretty much strictly worse than Centaur, though I suppose they benefit from not being Fey. Their Daunting Roar is not impressive. If Tasha's ability swaps are on the table, I'd swap them to +2 Str / +1 Wis.

Lizardfolk are quite solid for a heavyweight monk, and they get even better if the Tasha's ability score swapping option is in use. Lizardfolk offer the higher 1d6 damage die with unarmed attacks as opposed to the lower 1d4. They have two proficiencies and the ability to make a bonus action bite that heals you when you don't want to spend a Flurry of Blows ki point. Also, a number of classes that might use a shield don't actually get one as part of their equipment package, and lizardfolk has a way around that problem. It's a shame that their natural armor isn't going to be useful for a heavyweight.

Longtooth Shifter is okay. They have a solid +2 Strength, a couple proficiencies, and darkvision. The race would be better if they had their natural weapon (a powerful d6 one!) all the time instead of only when they are using Shift.

Minotaur is good for a heavyweight monk, with the more powerful d6 natural weapon that also offers two different bonus action options involving it. The ability to make a Dash Action on your turn and to attack with the horns as a bonus action is a ki-free way of closing distance and getting an attack. The ability to shove opponents around (with a DC based on Strength!) with your horns is, of course, excellent for opening up tactical possibilities (of course, there's a lot of overlap if you're thinking Open Hand).

Naga is a good option that becomes amazing if the Tasha's ability score swaps are in-play! Poison immunity is, of course, great to have. But, the big benefit comes from the fact that you can add poison damage or the restrained condition with no save to your unarmed strikes. Using Flurry of Blows as a Naga attacking with a heavy 2-hander means that you get advantage with the heavy-hitting weapon attacks after constricting with the unarmed ones. This provides nearly all the benefits of Reckless Attack with none of the drawbacks.

Satyr is an okay option that becomes fabulous if you're allowed to swap around their ability scores. Faster movement with the unarmed damage die are both welcome. You can combine Mirthful Leaps with Step of the Wind and a high Strength score to be able to jump up as high as 32 feet with a running jump. Your running long jump is limited more by your movement than your jumping ability. However, the wonderful thing about Satyr is the Magic Resistance, which will combine at high levels with Diamond Soul to make you a saving throw beast.

Simic Hybrid is good if you're planning on going with some degree of grappling in your strategy, since at 5th level they get the Grappling Appendages natural weapons. This does get the larger d6 damage unarmed strikes and the bonus action grapple is ok if you want to go in that direction. Keep in mind that if you want to bonus-action-grapple, that means that you're giving up one of your weapon attacks as part of the Attack action for the natural weapon attack. If grappling isn't going to be your thing, then it's not actually that great, since you only get the natural weapon at level 5.

Tabaxi are acceptable options that become pretty darn good if you can swap the ability scores around. The d4 die on unarmed strikes is good enough, and two good proficiencies are excellent. Darkvision and the ability to double your speed are just what you need with some builds. Just, solid all around.

Tortle is an amazing choice that requires no multiclassing to get a good AC. The stats are in the right places, making the Tasha's swap unimportant. Your 17 base AC can be augmented with a shield if you want. Really the strength of this race is how all-inclusive it is for what we need. Plus, with the ability to hold your breath for an hour, and with a character weight that is probably close to a thousand pounds, you can just grab someone and jump into the water to drown them.

Races without natural weapons

Dwarf is a pretty good option since you can get racial proficiency with some decent martial weapons and medium armor with Mountain Dwarf. And, the Hill Dwarf grants you a Wisdom boost and more hitpoints! Either of these is good! The Duergar subrace gets the ability to enlarge themselves, which grants 1d4 bonus damage on all of your attacks, which for lower levels is sort of like having an unarmed die. At higher levels, you'll probably take the Unarmed Fighting Style to get your unarmed die, at which point +1d4 damage per attack is just great on a chassis that gets a lot of attacks! The Mark of Warding dwarf is only going to be good if you're mixing a heavyweight monk with a casting class.

Elf has few good options, though they become better if you can make Tasha's substitutions. One of the stand-outs is High Elf if you can make ability swaps, specifically for a Shadow Monk approach. You can take Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade with your cantrip, and then use that with a sword when you get advantage after Shadow Stepping somewhere. It's a decent option.

Gnome has no really good options.

Half-Elf is good for the same reasons as High Elf, when you have the ability to swap ability scores around from the Tasha's optional rule. You can grab an effective wizard cantrip and get +2/+1/+1 to give to Strength, Wisdom, and Constitution (or an ability score to support a multiclass)

Half-Orc is actually pretty solid. Darkvision is good to have. Relentless Endurance is a good ability. Savage Attacks benefits anyone who gets large dice, and you have as much reason as anyone to go for a d12 Greataxe over a d8 Longsword. Heck, with Open Fist you have a better than typical ability to benefit because you can drop opponents prone and get advantage more easily, which translates as always to more critical rolls. The Mark of Finding Half Orc is better, since you can get a d6 on your unarmed strikes from Hunter's Mark. Plus, this die also boosts your ability to damage with weapons. Then, it gives bonuses to two good Wisdom skills, and if you splash a spellcasting class, both Faerie Fire and Longstrider have merit for a heavyweight monk.

Halfling is better for a featherweight monk than a heavyweight. But, the Lotusden Halfling offers some interesting options in combining Open Hand monk with Spike Growth.

Human is not that great, but as usual Variant Human provides some really solid options for a heavyweight monk. The ability to take the Fighting Adept feat at level 1 to get the Unarmed fighting style is really good. It lets you have your d6 unarmed die (d8 if you aren't using your hands for weapons or shields), but can also be swapped out for a different fighting style should you outgrow this one. For example, if you are planning on grabbing some spellcasting levels and taking alter self for utility purposes and for the natural weapon option, then you aren't going to find the fighting style to be that relevant any more.

Custom Lineage is excellent for all the same reasons as the variant human.

I can't see a reason why you'd want any of the Tiefling options. Maybe if you were going to take a Charisma based class somewhere along the line?

Aasimar offers some small amount of healing and the ability to deal extra damage with their nova ability. The presence of many attacks on a monk of any variety makes it so that the additional damage stands that much better of a chance of actually landing.

Firbolg are good if you can't swap ability scores, since they've got it where it counts! There's something for you in the Hidden Step ability, where you can get advantage on an attack one time, but for the most part this race is all about the ability scores.

Let's just skip the Genasi.

Gith offers the Githyanki which are sort of like swords-dwarves. Putting Jump onto a character with high Strength and Step of the Wind is pretty solid mobility, and Misty Step should be welcome on any character. They specifically give proficiency with greatswords, which are the best damage of all the PHB weapons.

Goliath offers some of the right ability scores, and the Stone's Endurance trait is, at least, useful.

It always surprises me when people choose Kenku for... anything. The race offers some skill in social and stealthy situations, none of which are particularly relevant for our heavyweight monk.

If the campaign allows for it without being a huge pain in the bum, Locathah is a decent choice. with ability scores in pretty useful places. There's significant overlap with natural armor and our other character choices, which is unfortunate. However, Leviathan Will is at least decent.

Triton offers a very interesting option specifically for a Way of the Four Elements monk. The ability to natively cast Wall of Water is one of the few ways to get enough water onto the battlefield so that you can reliably use the Shape the Flowing River elemental discipline effectively. You get much more water overall from the ringed wall than from the linear wall (circle: ~1250 cubic feet and line: 300 cubic feet). The ringed wall will allow you to fill 10 5-ft.-cubes with water or ice in whatever shape you want. That could be a fairly impressive fortification for your party if you want. This requires only level 5 and will last up to 10 minutes. Additionally, you get a bonus to Strength and Constitution, and if you're using Tasha's you might be able to change the +Charisma to +Wisdom. You could probably argue that Fog Cloud would also be manipulatable with Shape the Flowing River.

Bugbear offers some interesting options for monks of the Way of Shadows and for Way of the Astral Self monks. The Way of Shadows provides a lot of excellent tools to be able to actually acquire surprise.

Goblin provides nothing of merit, although Fury of the Small and Nimble Escape continue to both be generally good abilities.

Grung is good, especially if you can trade your ability scores around. Doling out the poisoned condition is amazing on your fisticuffs. You can use piercing weapons for your Attack action attacks to get bonus poison damage. Hell, if you go for the Alter Self option for an unarmed die, you can make your natural weapons from the spell do piercing damage! With Artificer 5 (battlesmith) / Monk 2, you might be looking at something like Magical Lance +8 for 1d12+5 twice and Natural Spines +8 for 1d6+5 twice, where the lance requires a DC 12 Constitution save for 2d4 poison damage and the spines require two DC 12 Constitution saves each for 2d4 poison damage and the poisoned condition.

Hobgoblin is good if you will get to swap around ability scores. You are hoping for more than just light armor, but maybe a Cleric splash in a domain that doesn't give martial weapons would be good for Hobgoblin. Saving Face is a good ability.

Kobolds who are two-handed wielding lances can do some serious damage. Pack tactics is an amazingly good ability. If you can manage to trade the ability scores around, then the overall package is quite nice.

Orcs are always a good option for a strength-based martial characters. Aggressive is a good option for when you don't want to spend a ki point to Dash.

For the purposes of a heavyweight monk, a Yuan-Ti Pureblood is strictly worse than a satyr if you want magic resistance.

LumenPlacidum
2021-03-17, 08:23 PM
Reserved for Feat discussion and different multiclass options.

Notable Multiclass options:

One of the reasons why people downplay the option of the heavyweight monk is because it is an intrinsically-multiclassed build! The heavyweight straight-classed monk is the most difficult one to do! As such, I think it's important to look at what the different classes bring to the table:


All artificers are pretty good with regards to defenses, since they get the ability to give themselves magical armor. Artificer is a viable option for getting Alter Self, which they get at level 5 Artificer.
Minimum Ability Scores Dex 13, Int 13, Wis 13.

Alchemist. This provides a number of Experimental Elixirs, all of which can be useful! One provides Alter Self, which might be the purpose of taking this class in the first place. To do this, you only need three levels of Artificer, since when you spend a spell slot to create an Elixir, you get to choose the effect that you get. Bonus! The Transformation Elixir does not require Concentration! So, you can cast an actual spell and concentrate on that instead.

Battle Smith. The primary benefit of this subclass is the Battle Ready ability, which can be used with unarmed strikes, as long as you get them from Alter Self, which provides explicitly-magical natural weapons. Going that route requires 5 levels of Battle Smith.



Barbarians provide three excellent things for a Strength-based melee character. First, Rage grants bonus damage, which is especially good when you get a lot of attacks, which monks do. Second, you get the toughness of damage resistance during rage. Third, you get the option for Reckless Attack. There aren't a lot of good options for subclasses, so I wouldn't suggest more than two levels of Barbarian. Barbarian closes some options, preventing you from Concentrating on a spell while raging.
Minimum Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 13, Wis 13

Ancestral Guardian. As a character going for high tankiness, Ancestral Guardian is an okay direction.

Beast. Unfortunately, the weapons provided by this subclass do not count as Unarmed Strikes. Still, a level 3 beast barbarian and level 5 monk would have five attacks when using Flurry of Blows. Each gains the benefit of +2 rage damage.



Bard provides relatively little to an aspiring heavyweight monk. Expertise from level 3 is useful for any number of purposes.
Minimum Ability Scores Dex 13, Wis 13, Cha 13

Swords. The Dueling fighting style offers the abiity to use a shield without lowering your damage, but provides no benefit for your unarmed strikes. The Defensive Flourish provides a big bonus to your AC without needing a reaction. This synergizes well with the Drunken Master's Redirect Attack. However, you need to have a strong Charisma to make good use of the flourishes, and you aren't likely to be that good at it.



This is almost certainly the most versatile multiclassing option for the heavyweight monk. You can gain heavy armor proficiency at the first level of this multiclass, and possibly even martial weapon proficiency. Notable spells: Bless, Shield of Faith, Sanctuary (for monks that have offensive options that are neither spells nor attacks, like Way of the Elements or Sun Soul), Spirit Shroud,
Minimum Ability Scores Dex 13, Wis 13

Arcana. The ability to pick up Booming Blade and/or Green Flame Blade that keys off of Wisdom is great. One level is typically sufficient. It provides no additional proficiencies.

Forge. This grants heavy armor proficiency and you can grant a +1 bonus to a suit of armor. As such, this is definitely the best option for armor class.

Nature. This grants heavy armor proficiency. The ability to grab Shillelagh means that you could claim SADness in much the same way as a monk of the Astral Self. You could combine this with a Shadows monk and, if you can swap ability scores, High Elf to get Booming Blade. You could get some pretty good crits.

Tempest. You get martial and heavy armor proficiency from this. Your reaction damage could be pretty solid with this combination.

Trickery. Invoke Duplicity is one of the ways to get advantage on all attacks, which is quite useful when you want to deal weapon damage.

Twilight. This gives proficiency with martial weapons and heavy armor. Eyes of Night is generically useful. Vigilant Blessing is great! Not a huge amount of synergy, just a really good class.

War. This gives proficiency with martial weapons and heavy armor. Divine Favor is useful for you since you get lots of attacks. War Priest gives you bonus action attacks for when you don't want to use a ki point.



Druid doesn't really offer much to the heavyweight monk. You cannot benefit from any of the good armors with Druid. I suppose a Tortle monk could do pretty well. Some notable druid spells: Longstrider, Guardian of Nature, tons of hazards.
Minimum Ability Scores Dex 13 Wis 13

Circle of Spores. Symbiotic Entity does extra well when you have a lot of attacks. I'd probably have Druid 2 / Barbarian 1 / Monk X (likely... Astral Self). 8 temporary hit points isn't a lot, but you might be able to carefully shepherd them given that you get Reach with your Arms of the Astral Self, and attack from more than a few steps away. You could even use wild shape normally and surprise people by having a ghost burst from the form of your squirrel body, laying all about with punches.



A splash in fighter at the start of your career is a superb choice for a heavyweight monk. You get the ability to select a fighting style, which can fill in the requirement for an unarmed die regardless of race or what else you do! So, a lot of flexibility of build is derived from just taking Fighter 1 and going on from there. However, you get Action Surge at level 2, and a subclass at level 3 (and there are some damn good fighter subclasses!), and an ASI at 4. The difficult part is figuring out where to stop with fighter.
Minimum Ability Scores Dex 13 Wis 13

I think I'd go as far as saying Fighter 1 / Monk X is the "Standard" heavyweight monk. You take the unarmed fighting style and whatever race you want. Now you're a martial character who also gets flurry of blows, stuns, and a bunch of mobility and defensive benefits.

Arcane Archer. The kensei provides quite a bit of support for a ranged combatant, and none of those abilities care about armor. So, wear whatever you want. You'll probably run this as a medium armor heavyweight, since you're going to have pretty solid Dexterity to be able to hit stuff (although... the Archery combat style gives a way to mitigate a low Dex). It's also worth noting that there's very little occupying the bonus action slot on an Arcane Archer, and the subclass gets most of its benefit right at level 3. Fighter 4 / Monk 12 / Ranger 4 (arcane archer, kensei, gloomstalker) seems like it would be pretty solid. You could get a +3 longbow, the archery style, the arcane shots, the gloomstalker bonus, hunter's mark, kensi's shot, and deft strike. With Hunter's Mark already up, that's an alpha strike of 3x Longbow with +16 to-hit for 1d8+1d4+1d6+5, with an extra +1d8 on the last one, and an extra 1d8 to any one that you want. The ability to hit with a Banishing or Grasping arrow is really just extra. The arcane shot plus the deft strike should be kept until something crits or it's your last shot.
Against standard dummy target assuming Gloomstalker makes you invisible, it comes to 83.38 damage for that first round of combat. That's very good even for level 20. Then... you have all the defensive abilities of a level 12 monk. Oh! And, you can action surge! That's without sharpshooter

Battle Master. Most of the maneuvers can affect unarmed strikes, although don't forget that you're probably swinging a massive hunk of steel as much as any fighter. If you can manage to claim advantage on your attacks from something, then the maneuvers can act as little smites. I'm a fan of Maneuvering Attack, Riposte, and Trip Attack.

Champion. While this class might be a bit dull in terms of its 3rd level ability, the truth is that the expanded crit range on all attacks is an extremely good ability in terms of numbers. The more often you attack, with advantage and a high crit range, the more critical hits you will accrue. It's a simple axiom, but one that people undervalue. It's also worth mentioning that mixing very feature-intensive choice-intensive classes, like monk, with a very passive class like champion fighter yields greater strength because there are fewer options clamoring for your attention and actions.

Echo Knight. This is less about creating amazing synergistic combos and more about using monk to fill in around the cracks of the godlike power that Echo Knight already gives you. Using Flurry of Blows when you're not creating a new echo or teleporting to swap spaces is a boost. This is a great base on which to add the Way of the Four Elements monk for some terrain manipulation, Way of the Long Death for durability.

Eldritch Knight. Well now, here's a way to get some arcane spells without needing to meet a minimum ability score requirement that we don't already need to have to multiclass at all! So, here's a way to get heavy armor proficiency, Constitution saves for concentration, the unarmed fighting style, Shield, as well as something to actually concentrate on, like Blur. I think I would mix this with the Drunken Master for extra defensive shenanigans, or with the Open Hands monk for the ability to set up hazards and sit opponents down in them.

Rune Knight. I love the cloud giant rune! Gear up to take 7 levels of fighter, and you won't regret it. I could imagine getting Fighter 1, Monk 3, Fighter up to 7, and then Monk through to whatever. You get a damage boost from Giant Might, which is excellent. When you're Large size and you have advantage on Strength checks, you might as well be an awesome grappler capable of taking on many foes. Now, boosting Strength and Wisdom is annoying, but this is one of the situations where you probably want both. Take the Open Hands monk. Attack and Flurry. With your first attack, stun the target with a point of ki, giving disadvantage on the saving throw with the storm rune. If they fail, then with your flurry of blows, knock the target prone (they automatically fail the saving throw). Finally, with your final attack, grapple the prone opponent. Now they're prone and grappled and cannot stand up. They have disadvantage to attack you from Grappled. You have advantage to attack them. If you take a race that offers additional appendages, you can keep doing this to other opponents as your party wipes out the ones you've already handled. It's not terribly sustainable at 2 ki points per turn, but it's not that bad.



Paladin is a way to get heavy armor proficiency if you start with the class. The ability to smite is welcome as much on a monk as on any other martial. More, really, since by getting more attacks you also have an increased opportunity to smite on crits. Divine Favor is good for boosting all attack damage. Improved Divine Smite is amazing with a pile of attacks.
Minimum Ability Scores Str 13 Dex 13 Wis 13 Cha 13 (it's hard to be an ascetic knight... odd, isn't it?)

Oath of Conquest. The fear abilities of this subclass pair very well with the Way of the Long Death. In particular, the monk's ability to repeatedly cause fear in a large area and the paladin's aura of 0-speed-if-frightened makes for effective crowd control that expends no resources.

Oath of Vengeance. The ability to gain advantage on all of your attacks is really excellent, especially for a Paladin who has an abnormally-high number of attacks. With Elven Accuracy, such a character will have a huge chance of getting a critical hit each turn. So, the natural pairing will be Way off the Astral Self, and other classes that provide bonus dice that you can hand out to critical hits.



The ranger class provides proficiency with medium armor and shields. Since you need 13 Dex to multiclass anyway, it's not a bad idea to grab a 14 in Dex and just use medium armor. Ranger provides access to some of the good druid hazard spells, like Entangle, Spike Growth, and Plant Growth. The optional trait Favored Foe is nice and simple for a little splash of Ranger. Remember, anything that gives you more dice on all of your damage rolls is magnified in effect when you have lots of those rolls. The ability's number of uses scales with proficiency and it costs no actions to activate! Monks intrinsically have a lot of bonus action use, which makes Hunter's Mark a less-good idea. It's still good, mind you. Just... less so.

The druidic warrior fighting style also gives you the chance to grab Shillelagh. You could combine the Way of the Astral Self plus shillelagh to become entirely Wisdom SAD (except for the 14 Dex for AC with your medium armor). This is a choice made for the sake of convenience, though--not power. You're just making a choice to make your attacks with Wisdom instead of Strength. Since there's little intrinsic benefit to using Wisdom over Strength, this isn't a matter of increasing your power. It could make it easier to mix in another wisdom-based class (probably Cleric).

Minimum Ability Score requirements: Dex 13 Wis 13

Fey Wanderer. I think that this is the ranger subclass I'd choose in order to go for the SAD Wisdom build that I was hinting at above. What's interesting about this is that Astral monk and Fey Wanderer both give you the ability to make some of your social skills better! So, this is an okay way to make a party face sort of character with some classes that would otherwise not be great for the party face. Ranger 3 gives you a social skill proficiency as well as the ability to add your Wisdom modifier to all Charisma checks. Monk 6 then gives you advantage on Wisdom(Insight) and Charisma(Intimidation) checks. So, you're really good at pushing people around! Perhaps combining this with an Order Domain Cleric would be good.

Hunter. Since you are already incentivized to add dice to all of your attacks, the Giant Killer ability just makes that even more great. Hunter's Mark and Giant Killer can be a huge benefit. If you are making two big weapon attacks and two flurry attacks, and then another attack from Giant Killer, then you're getting much more mileage out of Hunter's Mark. For example, a Ranger 3 / Monk 5 combo would probably have a +7 to-hit and do 2d6+4 on a weapon attack and 1d4+4 on an unarmed attack With neither Hunter's Mark nor Giant Killer, you'd have a damage output of 18.45. With Giant Killer and Hunter's Mark, you go up to 33.93 damage. It makes a big difference!

Swarmkeeper. I really like the idea of combining Swarmkeeper with a Way of the Open Fist monk to be able to manipulate enemy positioning a lot. The typical Open Fist combination of using Stunning Strike to guarantee that the target is going to fail Strength and Dexterity saves works really well here. You can bat someone 25 feet and into your Entangle spell (which they'll automatically get restrained by) with one of your flurry attacks. You'll have an imposing presence on the battlefield, even if you don't want to do so much damage that you're overshadowing your party-members.



Rogue doesn't have a perfect synergy with unarmed strikes, because you cannot sneak attack with unarmed strikes. However, don't forget that you're not a normal featherweight monk! You're not only attacking with unarmed strikes! Rogue is also excellent for making your ki points more efficient, since you can bonus-action-Dash and bonus-action-Disengage with Cunning Action instead of through Ki.

Combining something like Way of the Four Elements with Rogue is much more synergistic than most other subclasses. You can use Water Whip as your action to pull a foe close, and then with Ki-Fueled Strike, you can attack with a monk weapon (i.e. a rapier when you've used Dedicated Weapon to turn it into a monk weapon) and then just Sneak Attack with that!

Arcane Trickster. Combining Kensei with this subclass has some benefits. You can cast Booming Blade and use Deft Strike to add some bonus damage with it, and then make a bonus action attack using Ki-Fueled Strike. Also, the benefits of getting Blur when you're trying to leverage the Redirect Attack feature of Way of the Drunken Master are significant!

Assassin. Assassin is one of the more effective rogue subclasses when you're only looking to take 3 levels of it. An Assassin / Shadow Monk has amazing abilities that let them gain surprise on foes. Having a pile of attacks that can all crit is excellent. I'd probably throw this on a Half-Orc Gloomstalker Ranger to be able to use Favored Foe when it is triggered and make it that much easier to get surprise. Plus, extra attack on alpha strike. Fighter 1 / Rogue 3 / Ranger 3 / Monk 6 attacks with 2x Rapier +9 for 1d8+1d4+4, 1x Rapier +9 for 2d8+1d4+4, and 2x Unarmed Strike +9 for 1d6+1d4+4, which all have advantage on the attack, and all crit automatically if they hit. One of the rapiers will do +2d6 sneak attack. This comes to around 93 expected damage.



As a casting option to pair with monk, Sorcerer provides metamagic and some interesting subclasses. It's no more MAD to go with a Charisma-based class than an Intelligence-based one (which is to say, quite MAD). Sorcerer doesn't give you any of the additional proficiencies you might want for a heavyweight monk, either. But, it does give the ability to cast from one or more really solid spell lists. Notable spells include Shield, Blur, Alter Self and Greater Invisibility. Also, some subclasses have access to Spirit Shroud (divine soul), which can hugely boost many attacks.
Minimum Ability Scores Dex 13 Wis 13 Cha 13

I admit... I'm uninspired by the combinations of Sorcerer subclasses and monk abilities.



Warlock is one of my favorite classes, and there are ways to make a warlock interact with monk abilities. The most obvious pacts of interest are Pact of the Blade, where you make a pact weapon that can be turned into a monk weapon or one that already is one, and Pact of the Tome which lets you get Shillelagh. For a long time, Warlock was the only way people had to be able to see through magical darkness with the Devil's Sight invocation, and that pairs pretty well with the Way of Shadows monk to get advantage all the time on your attack rolls.
Minimum Ability Scores Dex 13 Wis 13 Cha 13

Hexblade. Of course Hexblade mixes acceptably well with monk. Hexblade mixes with damn near everything! I would get a Pact of the Blade and get to level 5 to pick up the invocations: Eldritch Smite, Devil's Sight, and Tomb of Levistus (I really like this one). I'd take Way of the Shadow for easy access to Darkness, which spends a ki point and therefore allows you to immediately follow it up with a Ki-Fueled Attack which has advantage. Your potentially expanded crit range from Hexblade's curse pairs very nicely with advantage to give you lots of critical hits, which you can take advantage of using Eldritch Smite. You're not even spending one of your precious spell slots on Darkness, which is something that a lot of Devil's Sight warlocks need to worry about. When darkness is already up, you can Flurry of Blows for more damage or, if you spent a ki point to hit with an attack that would otherwise have missed from Focused Aim, then you can get a third attack with your pact weapon (and thus another crit-smite chance) with Ki-Fueled Attack. You'll actually find yourself wishing that you had other ways to spend your ki as part of your attack action! Oh wait! You do! You can also use Stunning Strike. That's right, you can eldritch stunning smite pact lance attack a Huge opponent, knocking them prone, dealing a ton of damage, forcing them to save or also be stunned, and doing so gets you an extra attack. You don't need the Thirsting Blade invocation since you get Extra Attack from monk levels. As usual for a Hex Bladelock, you can choose more situational spells for your spells known since you already have a solid offensive option. Let's also talk about the fact that your curse gives you your proficiency on damage for all attack rolls! This is, of course, excellent for monks who can generate quite a few attacks round after round. You could have four attacks with Hexblade's curse up as soon as level 6 (if you went Monk 5 / Warlock 1), although you're really looking at late tier-II to early tier-III for this combo. You can't smite on those unarmed strikes, but don't discount them for that! +10 to-hit, twice, for 1d12+10 plus Eldritch Smite and +10 to-hit, twice more, for 1d4+10 is a lot of damage! Throwing in the Hex spell also is just mean.

LumenPlacidum
2021-03-17, 08:23 PM
Some Sample Builds

Tortle of Life and Death
Tortle Spores Cleric (war) 1, Druid 8 (spores), Monk (mercy) 11
Cleric 1, Monk 6, Druid 2, Monk 11, Druid 8
War cleric grants you proficiency with martial weapons and the Divine Favor spell. If defense becomes an issue, you can choose to use Shield of Faith instead. You have a very solid AC of 19 with a shield and a d8 weapon of your choosing at level 1, and you can even use your War domain blessing to swing the weapon twice at this level (i.e. you rock at level 1). When you hit level 4, you are probably not using Hands of Harm yet. You probably want to save your ki for Flurries or taking the Dodge action. When you hit level 7, using it to impose the poisoned condition is worth the ki point, which are getting to be more plentiful anyway. When you get to level 9, you have your druid subclass, and you can do an extra d6 damage with each attack. It is really important that you attack opportunistically, sheltering the temporary hit points from Symbiotic Entity so as to protect your bonus to damage. It's worth pointing out that if you do decide to use wild shape, this version of a heavyweight druid has full access to its unarmored defense, movement speed, and all of that. You'll lose the weapon and shield that are preventing you from doing unarmed damage normally. You won't have a crazy form that can do massive damage on its own like a moon druid, but you can do full monk damage in any form. Even if that form is a squirrel, you can still attack with your full unarmed strike/flurry combination and do hands of harm and stunning strike or whatever. Wild shape gives excellent utility, and the ability to ambush really well. At high levels you get Guardian of Nature (primal beast) for more damage, advantage on attacks, and more mobility. It's an excellent buff for this character! You'll do very good damage with a giant sword or axe at this point.

Centaur Wild Tactician
This centaur knows the calm and organized aspect of his kind even as he struggles to calm his wild nature.
Str 14+2, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15+1, Cha 8
Fighter 1, Monk 2, Fighter 3, Monk 5, Fighter 15, Rune Knight and Way of the Open Fist.
Fighting Style: Defense.
Runes: Cloud and Frost to start, Cloud, Storm, and Hill at 7, adding Frost and Fire as you gain levels
Pick up a lance asap, and upgrade your armor to full plate. On your turn, Attack with Lance, going for a Stunning Strike. Use the Storm rune prophetic state to make your stun more likely to go through. Once an opponent is stunned, they automatically fail Dexterity and Strength saves, meaning that you can use your flurry of blows attacks to punt them over to a hazard and then knock them down in it. If you really want to ruin their day, you can then move next to that target and grapple with your second attack. This creates the nice situation of someone being in a hazard with speed 0 and prone. They... can't really do anything. And, this practically becomes guaranteed on a turn where you land your stunning strike with your first attack. And, if you don't... then you can just not spend the extra ki point to use Flurry of Blows. If you just charged the target, you get a bonus action hoof attack anyway, since you're a centaur.
This build can use GWM on its non-unarmed attacks, which is a great option to focus on damage. You don't need the AC of a shield, since you have the ability to make foes reroll attacks against you when they do connect from Runic Shield. Also, you can partly mitigate the penalty to hit by using it against prone targets from your flurries.

Grung Alchemical Monster
This grung swallows some odd-colored liquids and turns into a horrible, spined monstrosity.
Str 15, Dex 11+2, Con 11+1, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 8
Cleric 1 (forge domain), Monk 2, Artificer 3 (alchemist), Monk 6 (drunken master), Fighter 1, Monk to 15
With Forge Domain, Artificer Infusions, the Alchemist elixir that provides +1 AC, Concentration spent on Shield of Faith, the Defensive Fighting Style, and heavy armor proficiency with a shield, you can reliably have AC 26. You probably want to spend your other infusion on being able to save your concentration with Mind Sharpener.
When combat breaks out, you drink an Alter Self elixir and give yourself spines. With your spines you both deal extra poison damage and potentially trigger the poisoned condition. It's an easy DC, but when you are attacking four times, eventually someone will fail their saving throw... You also have a marvelous ability to redirect attacks because nothing can hit you. You are remarkably mobile, since you can leap around as a grung and potentially stick to walls with your sticky pads. Step of the Wind boosts that mobility, and so does the monk subclass. Some of your random elixirs are going to end up being flight elixirs anyway. Hyper-solid defense. Against non-poisoned-immune foes, you can do some excellent debuffing with your basic attacks. However, don't discount your damage. When everything is fully together at level 10, you are attacking with four spines attacks at +8 to-hit for 1d6+4 plus poison plus poisoned. Against a dummy target, you're doing 21 damage per round, which isn't great, but don't forget the benefit of being able to redirect all those higher-damage attacks against your foes. In terms of utility, you have guidance, a bunch of tool proficiencies, some emergency healing from alchemist, and good mobility. You could opt to not take Monk past 6 and instead take whatever you want from level 11 on. Cleric would give you a lot. Rogue would add more skills-based utility.

The Invincible Hoof
Satyr Vengeance Paladin 6 / Dronk 14
Str 15, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 16
Starting with Paladin through 6, and then going Monk forever, this character is a saving throw powerhouse by the high levels. The combination of the Protection Aura and Diamond Soul gives you unparalleled saving throws that no one else can manage. Your offense isn't too impaired by focusing so heavily on defense. You still expect to do about 45 damage per round at the end of your career.

LumenPlacidum
2021-03-21, 09:48 AM
When giving sample builds, to what level of detail are handbook-readers usually expecting such things? Should I go through all ASI/feat selection? Spell choices? Or, just the ones that are necessary for the build?

Should I include a point-by-point comparison of heavyweight versus featherweight? Is it my job to convince people to play this? Or, after they have decided, to provide a description of how the available options are colored by those choices?

Jon talks a lot
2021-03-21, 11:28 AM
When giving sample builds, to what level of detail are handbook-readers usually expecting such things? Should I go through all ASI/feat selection? Spell choices? Or, just the ones that are necessary for the build?

Should I include a point-by-point comparison of heavyweight versus featherweight? Is it my job to convince people to play this? Or, after they have decided, to provide a description of how the available options are colored by those choices?

I would think that ASI's and feats should be at least mentioned.

I don't think going through every spell is necessary; just go through the important ones.

You don't have to break down every point, but yes you should have some comparison.

Your job is to explain why it's powerful and let them decide if they want to play it.

Unoriginal
2021-03-21, 11:30 AM
When giving sample builds, to what level of detail are handbook-readers usually expecting such things? Should I go through all ASI/feat selection? Spell choices? Or, just the ones that are necessary for the build?

Should I include a point-by-point comparison of heavyweight versus featherweight? Is it my job to convince people to play this? Or, after they have decided, to provide a description of how the available options are colored by those choices?

Only you can decide what you want to accomplish and how you want to present it.

There is not one way to do it, and you've already done more work than some.

8wGremlin
2021-03-21, 11:24 PM
Which book does the Naga come from?

LumenPlacidum
2021-03-21, 11:58 PM
Which book does the Naga come from?

Plane Shift: Amonkhet (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://media.wizards.com/2017/downloads/magic/plane-shift_amonkhet.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjR2tL0jcPvAhU2GFkFHcw8DIkQFjAAegQIBxAC&usg=AOvVaw1DurthcdWD18Cq3Pk3BWWh)

The ability to automatically restrain a target that you hit with your constrict attack is almost certainly unbalanced, though. I would only allow it at my table with modification.

MightyK
2021-03-22, 12:17 PM
Way of the Shadow
(...)
The subclass suffers from no significant damage improvement over base monk. So, you are forced into other options to get greater impact in combat.

For me this is missing the whole point of going STR Monk. You can have access to GWM and with a 1 lvl Fighter dip get the blind fighting style.
Casting Darkness for 2 ki, having advantage on all attacks while the enemy has disadvantage? This is the biggest damage increase you can wish for.

LumenPlacidum
2021-03-22, 01:00 PM
For me this is missing the whole point of going STR Monk. You can have access to GWM and with a 1 lvl Fighter dip get the blind fighting style.
Casting Darkness for 2 ki, having advantage on all attacks while the enemy has disadvantage? This is the biggest damage increase you can wish for.

So true. A major component of maximizing damage with any attacking class is the ability to gain advantage as often as possible on your attack rolls. I usually downplay the darkness/devil's-sight-or-blindsight combo usually because of the necessity of parties needing to be behind the strategy also. But, there's no reason not to mention it in the guide. I'll run some numbers with it as well.

I was thinking too much about Shadow Step when talking about the Way of Shadows, and how you lose your ability to make bonus action attacks with that. But, you're right! I'm not giving a fair shake to the combination of darkness and being able to pour damage on with advantage.

MightyK
2021-03-23, 03:36 AM
(...) because of the necessity of parties needing to be behind the strategy also. (...)

It's really not as bad as people say. For example the other "attack rollers" in the group wont even notice, advantage (your target can't see you) and disadvantage (you can't see your target) cancel each other out.
Only targeted spells don't work at all.

Of course you prohibit your party to gain advantage this way, so grapplers and barbarians will be pissed. (But they can get Blind Fighting with a feat to join the fun :smallsmile:)

But that's not all. Darkness ist cast on an object, that you can cover or uncover every round with a free object interaction. You can also drop it, throw it, put in on a rope and drag it behind you... the options are all there really that it should be fun and tactical instead of annoying.

AttilatheYeon
2021-03-23, 04:15 AM
I think you rate flurry of blows to high. If you're wearing armor, you don't get to use martial arts. So, FoB then defaults down to 1 + str damage. Hardly as much as a traditional monk (barring the use of higher rarity giant belts). Better off spending a chi point and making a bonus action weapon attack.

LumenPlacidum
2021-03-23, 07:44 AM
I think you rate flurry of blows to high. If you're wearing armor, you don't get to use martial arts. So, FoB then defaults down to 1 + str damage. Hardly as much as a traditional monk (barring the use of higher rarity giant belts). Better off spending a chi point and making a bonus action weapon attack.

I wanted to say that this just wasn't true, if you spent even a modicum of effort getting an unarmed damage die, but it turns out to be a complex relationship between damage of your monk weapon attack and your unarmed damage, plus your ability score and proficiency bonus.

If you have an unarmed damage die from something, then using Flurry of Blows under most circumstances and using Ki-Fueled Attack for an extra attack only when you make use of Focused Aim to hit with one of your weapon attacks is pretty much always the best option.

I need to do some expected value analysis... ugh, there are a lot of conditional probabilities in this.

The main strategies to compare are, I think:

Strategy 1, Flurry of Blows-heavy
First Attack Hit? -> Second Attack Hit? -> Flurry of Blows
First Attack Hit? -> Second Attack Miss by no more than 2? -> Focused Aim and Ki-Fueled Attack for free
First Attack Hit? -> Second Attack Miss outright? -> Flurry of Blows
First Attack Miss by no more than 2? -> Focused Aim and Ki-Fueled Attack for Free regardless of outcome of Second Attack
First Attack Miss outright? -> Second Attack Hit? -> Flurry of Blows
First Attack Miss outright? -> Second Attack Miss by no more than 2? -> Focused Aim and Ki-Fueled Attack for free
First Attack Miss outright? -> Second Attack Miss outright? -> Flurry of Blows

versus

Strategy 2, Stunning Strike-heavy
First Attack Hit? -> Stunning Strike on First Attack and make Ki-Fueled Attack for free regardless of saving throw or outcome of second attack
First Attack Miss by no more than 2? -> Focused Aim and make Ki-Fueled Attack for free regardless of outcome of second attack
First Attack Miss outright? -> Second Attack Hit? -> Stunning Strike and make Ki-Fueled Attack for free regardless of saving throw
First Attack Miss outright? -> Second Attack Miss by no more than 2? -> Focused Aim and make Ki-Fueled Attack for free
First Attack Miss outright? -> Second Attack Miss outright? -> Flurry of Blows

I'll do the calculation when I have time. If you can think of other strategies to compare, I'll give those a go as well. Just, please give the full strategy for decision making.

Ugh, that was awful.

Most common situations... all against standard target dummy (AC 18, +4 saves)
+6 attack bonus, Con save DC 14, 1d8+3 armed damage, 1d4+3 unarmed damage
Strategy 1: 14.9 damage, Strategy 2: 13.1 damage

+6 attack bonus, Con save DC 14, 1d10+3 armed damage, 1d4+3 unarmed damage
Strategy 1: 16.3 damage, Strategy 2: 14.7 damage

+6 attack bonus, Con save DC 14, 2d8+3 armed damage, 1d4+3 unarmed damage
Strategy 1: 21.3 damage, Strategy 2: 20.5 damage

For levels 6-8, even if you manage to get a Shadow Blade and only have a 1d4 unarmed die, then the flurry of blows focused decision tree yields better results than the stunning strike->ki-fueled attack decision tree.

+8 attack bonus, Constitution save DC 15, 1d8+4 armed damage, 1d4+4 unarmed damage
Strategy 1: 20.1 damage, Strategy 2: 17.6 damage

+8 attack bonus, Constitution save DC 15, 1d10+4 armed damage, 1d4+4 unarmed damage
Strategy 1: 21.7 damage, Strategy 2: 19.6 damage

+8 attack bonus, Constitution save DC 15, 2d8+4 armed damage, 1d4+4 unarmed damage
Strategy 1: 27.4 damage, Strategy 2: 26.7 damage

At level 9 or so, the flurry of blows leaning strategy is still better.

+9 attack bonus, Constitution save DC 16, 1d8+5 armed damage, 1d4+5 unarmed damage
Strategy 1: 24.3 damage, Strategy 2: 21.2 damage

+9 attack bonus, Constitution save DC 16, 1d10+5 armed damage, 1d4+5 unarmed damage
Strategy 1: 26.0 damage, Strategy 2: 23.4 damage

+9 attack bonus, Constitution save DC 16, 2d8+5 armed damage, 1d4+5 unarmed damage
Strategy 1: 32.1 damage, Strategy 2: 31.1 damage

Even as you enter Tier 3, your damage with flurry continues to be better. This is all even with the lowest possible racial unarmed damage die.

So, I can with some level of confidence say that choosing to do flurry of blows whenever you can't make something hit with Focused Aim and get a free ki-fueled attack because of it is better than trying to not use flurry of blows and grabbing ki-fueled attacks by using Stunning Strike.

Now, this doesn't analyze other options for the usage of ki, like an Elements monk using one of their elemental disciplines.

Edit -
Ok, so I compared some other strategies. They all represent holding yourself to only using 1 ki point in a turn. They are ordered from most effective to least effective damage-wise.

1. You use Focused Aim - Ki-fueled Attack when you miss by no more than 2, but Flurry of Blows all the other times. You are using a non-monk weapon for big armed attacks and you have another source of d4 unarmed damage.
2. You use Flurry of Blows literally all the time, completely ignoring Ki-Fueled Attack. You use a non-monk weapon for big armed attacks and have another source of d4 unarmed damage.
3. You use Focused Aim - Ki-fueled Attack when you miss by no more than 2, but Flurry of Blows all the other times. You are using a monk weapon so that you can use it for the Ki-fueled attacks. You have another source of d4 unarmed damage.
4. You use Stunning Strike on your first weapon attack that hits in order to gain advantage on all future attacks that turn, using Ki-Fueled attack if you end up hitting with either weapon attack. You are using a non-monk weapon for big damage. You use Flurry of Blows if you miss with both weapon attacks. You have another source of d4 unarmed damage.
5. You use Stunning Strike on your first weapon attack that hits in order to gain advantage on all future attacks that turn, using Ki-Fueled attack if you end up hitting with either weapon attack. You are using a monk weapon so that you can use it with the Ki-Fueled Attacks. You use Flurry of Blows if you miss with both weapon attacks. You have another source of d4 unarmed damage.

With a weapon that does as much damage as Shadow Blade, you can make it so that the Stunning Strike option overtakes the Always-Flurry option, but not the mostly-Flurry option.

If you get a bonus die to all of your damage rolls, then it becomes harder to overtake the all-Flurry option, but the mostly-Flurry option with a big damage weapon is always better, for all of the numbers that I plugged in.

If you're curious of my results, I was using Mathematica with the following code for the last situation:
In[921]:= probhit = 0.6;
probmiss = 0.3;
probaim = 1 - probhit - probmiss;
probcrit = 0.05;
unarmedDam = 12;
unarmedDice = 7;
armedDam = 15;
armedDice = 10;
bonusAdds = 0;
bonusDice = 0;
probhitADV = 1 - (1 - probhit)^2;
probmissADV = probmiss^2;
probaimADV = 1 - probhitADV - probmissADV;
probcritADV = 1 - (1 - probcrit)^2;
probsavefail = 0.55;
probsavepass = 1 - probsavefail;

This strategy, called edam1, is based on the idea that you will use Flurry of Blows much of the time, but that if you miss with a weapon attack by no more than 2, then you will use Focused Aim and Ki-Fueled Attack to hit with the weapon attack and get an additional weapon attack.

In[937]:= edam1 =
probmiss*probmiss*(0 + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice +
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probmiss*
probaim*(armedDam +
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}]) +
probmiss*
probhit*(armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice +
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probmiss*
probcrit*(armedDam + armedDice + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probaim*probmiss*(armedDam +
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}]) +
probaim*probaim*(armedDam +
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}]) +
probaim*probhit*(armedDam + armedDam +
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}]) +
probaim*probcrit*(armedDam + armedDam + armedDice +
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}]) +
probhit*probmiss*(armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice +
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probhit*probaim*(armedDam +
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}]) +
probhit*probhit*(armedDam + armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probhit*probcrit*(armedDam + armedDam + armedDice + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probcrit*
probmiss*(armedDam + armedDice + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probcrit*
probaim*(armedDam + armedDice + armedDam +
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}]) +
probcrit*
probhit*(armedDam + armedDice + armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probcrit*
probcrit*(armedDam + armedDice + armedDam + armedDice +
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice)


Out[937]= 39.1528

This strategy, called edam2, is based on the idea that you will use Stunning Strike on your first weapon attack that hits. Then, if the save is failed, then you will have advantage for your remaining Attack action attack (if any) and you will use a Ki-Fueled Attack with advantage. It is a strategy that only uses Flurry of Blows when you miss with both of your normal weapon attacks.

In[938]:= edam2 =
probhit*(
probsavefail*(
armedDam + probcrit*armedDice +
(1 - probhitADV)*(0 +
Max[{probhitADV*armedDam + probcritADV*armedDice,
probhitADV*unarmedDam + probcritADV*unarmedDice}]) +
probhitADV*(armedDam + probcritADV*armedDice +
Max[{probhitADV*armedDam + probcritADV*armedDice,
probhitADV*unarmedDam + probcritADV*unarmedDice}])
) +
probsavepass*(
armedDam + probcrit*armedDice +
(1 - probhit)*(0 +
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}]) +
probhit*(armedDam + probcrit*armedDice +
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}])
)
) +
probaim*probmiss*(armedDam +
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}]) +
probaim*probaim*(armedDam +
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}]) +
probaim*probhit*(armedDam + armedDam +
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}]) +
probaim*probcrit*(armedDam + armedDam + armedDice +
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}]) +
probmiss*
probmiss*(0 + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice +
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probmiss*
probaim*(armedDam +
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}]) +
probmiss*probhit*(
armedDam + probcrit*armedDice +
probsavefail*(
Max[{probhitADV*armedDam + probcritADV*armedDice,
probhitADV*unarmedDam + probcritADV*unarmedDice}]
) +
probsavepass*(
Max[{probhit*armedDam + probcrit*armedDice,
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice}]
)
)

Out[938]= 33.8789

For the following strategies, the assumption is that you are not using a monk weapon, and so you cannot use Ki-Fueled Attack to make an armed attack, but rather an unarmed attack only.

In[939]:= armedDam = 16.5;
armedDice = 11.5;

This strategy, called edam3, is based on the idea that you will use Flurry of Blows with every single Attack action.

In[941]:= edam3 = probhit*(armedDam) + probcrit*(armedDam + armedDice) +
probhit*(armedDam) + probcrit*(armedDam + armedDice) +
probhit*(unarmedDam) + probcrit*(unarmedDam + unarmedDice) +
probhit*(unarmedDam) + probcrit*(unarmedDam + unarmedDice)

Out[941]= 38.9

This strategy, called edam4, is based on on the idea that you will use Flurry of Blows much of the time, but that if you miss with a weapon attack by no more than 2, then you will use Focused Aim and Ki-Fueled Attack to hit with the weapon attack and get an additional unarmed attack (because you are not using a monk weapon).

In[942]:= edam4 =
probmiss*probmiss*(0 + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice +
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probmiss*probaim*(armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probmiss*
probhit*(armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice +
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probmiss*
probcrit*(armedDam + armedDice + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probaim*probmiss*(armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probaim*probaim*(armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probaim*probhit*(armedDam + armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probaim*probcrit*(armedDam + armedDam + armedDice + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probhit*probmiss*(armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice +
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probhit*probaim*(armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probhit*probhit*(armedDam + armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probhit*probcrit*(armedDam + armedDam + armedDice + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probcrit*
probmiss*(armedDam + armedDice + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probcrit*
probaim*(armedDam + armedDice + armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probcrit*
probhit*(armedDam + armedDice + armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probcrit*
probcrit*(armedDam + armedDice + armedDam + armedDice +
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice)

Out[942]= 41.1778

This strategy, called edam5, is based on the idea that you will use Stunning Strike on your first weapon attack that hits. Then, if the save is failed, then you will have advantage for your remaining Attack action attack (if any) and you will use a Ki-Fueled Attack with advantage. It is a strategy that only uses Flurry of Blows when you miss with both of your normal weapon attacks.

In[943]:= edam5 =
probhit*(
probsavefail*(
armedDam + probcrit*armedDice +
(1 - probhitADV)*(0 + probhitADV*unarmedDam +
probcritADV*unarmedDice) +
probhitADV*(armedDam + probcritADV*armedDice + probhitADV*unarmedDam +
probcritADV*unarmedDice)
) +
probsavepass*(
armedDam + probcrit*armedDice +
(1 - probhit)*(0 + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probhit*(armedDam + probcrit*armedDice + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice)
)
) +
probaim*probmiss*(armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probaim*probaim*(armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probaim*probhit*(armedDam + armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probaim*probcrit*(armedDam + armedDam + armedDice + probhit*unarmedDam +
probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probmiss*
probmiss*(0 + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice +
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probmiss*probaim*(armedDam + probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice) +
probmiss*probhit*(
armedDam + probcrit*armedDice +
probsavefail*(
probhitADV*unarmedDam + probcritADV*unarmedDice
) +
probsavepass*(
probhit*unarmedDam + probcrit*unarmedDice
)
)

Out[943]= 33.9722

verbatim
2021-03-23, 12:26 PM
Breaking Face
A Guide to Heavyweight Monks

The monk in Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition is a puzzle. It can be difficult to include the class as an ingredient in a build because the ki mechanic is sticky. Ki makes it so that, whatever the ability was that made you think monk was good for you, if you just keep going in monk, then you'll be able to use that option more regularly. I see people talking about how monks can Flurry of Blows at level 5, and they can use Stunning Strike with every attack, and gosh! how many Constitution saving throws does Mr. Baddy have to make? See how effective we are? Not really. You just laid out all five of your ki points in one round. Now... you're a generic martial character with poor AC. You'll have a bonus action attack, but that's no different to anyone using Polearm Master, Dual Weapon Fighting, or the like, and your damage dice are almost always worse than other martials!

I posit that dumping a lot of ki points all at once is a luxury, and not a build goal. Yes, if you're fighting the big bad mage at the end of the campaign, then maybe it's worth forcing them to make a pile of Constitution saving throws or be stunned, since the stunning is likely to get your team a free turn, which has a solid chance of just letting you win you the fight. But, only if they don't have support. I'm going to support a different tack in this guide. It's something that makes the monk less MAD (one of the common complaints about it) and opens up some multiclassing options that didn't really exist prior -- namely, building for Strength and wearing armor. I am going to use the term featherweight monk to refer to the unarmored, Dexterity-based monk, and I'll use the term heavyweight monk to refer to the fully-armored, Strength-based monk.


I understand that this would be precluded by the way you define heavyweight monk, but IMO it might be worth adding a third category for Monk's who use Strength but do not wear armor. People most commonly think of the Tortle (Static AC) or the Loxodon (AC = 13 + CON) in this instance, but I would imagine that there may b some way to make things work with select other races as well.

LumenPlacidum
2021-03-23, 01:10 PM
I understand that this would be precluded by the way you define heavyweight monk, but IMO it might be worth adding a third category for Monk's who use Strength but do not wear armor. People most commonly think of the Tortle (Static AC) or the Loxodon (AC = 13 + CON) in this instance, but I would imagine that there may b some way to make things work with select other races as well.

Yeah, I feel a little disingenuous including a build for tortle in this. Perhaps it's silly to say that "tortles are more like heavyweights than featherweights" and a better idea to include a "welterweight" class to include them. If such a character uses non-monk-weapons, then they're more like a heavyweight monk. If not, then they're more like a featherweight monk.

Segev
2021-03-23, 01:21 PM
If you're wearing armor but have the Unarmed Fighting Style, THAT one's die still applies to Flurry of Blows. If you're dipping monk for 2-5 levels, this is a pretty viable "strength monk" build, relying on something else for your features beyond Flurry and maybe Stunning Fist. An armored Open Hand monk with a two-handed weapon and the Unarmed Fighting Style, perhaps from taking Fighter and something else (Paladin?) or from taking Champion Fighter up to the point of getting a second fighting style, could do well.

It may even be worthwhile to plant your greatsword after attacking with it so you can get d8s on your Flurry. Maybe an Eldritch Knight/Monk for easy retrieval?

LumenPlacidum
2021-03-23, 01:53 PM
It may even be worthwhile to plant your greatsword after attacking with it so you can get d8s on your Flurry. Maybe an Eldritch Knight/Monk for easy retrieval?

I considered that for Shadow Blade, Eldritch Knight, and the like... but, it takes a bonus action to retrieve the weapon, which precludes the use of Flurry in the following round. Now, if you were to stick it in the ground, you might be able to use your Object Interaction to pick it up and continue to attack. However, a d6 to a d8 matters relatively little compared to the introduction of new dice or numerical bonuses which frequently affect your to-hit chance as well (a big deal).

Certainly the unarmed fighting style is one of the ways to go, and fighter is a nice little one-level package for these characters. I would still probably go with a Cleric dip most of the time, though; and, as a result, I'd mostly go for a damage die from a natural weapon.

Rhocian Xothara
2021-03-23, 05:19 PM
Just wanna say: I really like this guide. My group and I have been chatting about 'pugilist' builds with strength-based monks, and I made a similar character using a Fighter/Barbarian/Monk Loxodon, but I hadn't considered that druid and/or Cleric could prove valuable additions.

I'm now looking at your "Tortle of Life & Death" as an option for my secondary 'Tomb of Annihilation' character. I would probably change the order in which you took the levels, as I like the idea of having two spell lists to fall back on when I've finished fisting things (monks are notoriously bad at support/non-combat roles).

Also because dealing 3x(1D4+5) damage three times in a turn in a build that wasn't difficult to make is phenomenal at low levels, and whilst the effectiveness of monks tend to wane at higher levels, Druids and Clerics (the supporting multiclasses) definitely do not.

Also: Definitely not going to flavour him as 'Oogway' and use wildshape to play the entire cast of 'Kung Fu Panda', no sir... :smalltongue:

jojosskul
2021-03-24, 09:54 AM
I really like this guide and it got my wheels turning. This type of build is PERFECT for one particular Tasha's feat. Crusher. Pick up a Warhammer or a Maul (or hell, a club a quarterstaff if you don't pick up martial weapon proficiency), start yourself out with a variant human or a 17 str and grab this at 4. With the sheer number of attacks you're normally doing as a monk eventually you will crit, and when you do the rest of the party (and you) get to go to town with advantage. A free 5 ft push every round can have it's uses as well. The heavyweight monk seems uniquely positioned to take full advantage of the feat.

LumenPlacidum
2021-03-24, 10:02 AM
Keep in mind that when you get an unarmed die from a natural weapon, that natural weapon also has a damage type. So, you could actually make good use of any of the damage type feats. Slasher is pretty good. Piercer is only good with big damage dice and a lot of crits.

Darthnazrael
2021-03-24, 01:04 PM
I think it's important to note that the Longtooth Shifter's 1d6 slashing damage die is specifically listed as a choice. Meaning, if you, say, already do 1d8 bludgeoning from your Unarmed fighting style, you can still keep that, and just appreciate having a bonus action attack for a minute. That's not too bad if you were already planning to pick up UFS.

LumenPlacidum
2021-03-24, 01:35 PM
That is an interesting point that I had not considered. It still doesn't speak to me as a strong racial choice for this, since you're essentially spending two coins to get overlapping benefits. Part of the point of the heavyweight is the ability to get the use of a better weapon for your basic Attack action attacks. This would make the unarmed style deal 1d6 damage for most heavyweight monks anyway. Then, the shift ability is really just giving you a no-ki option for a bonus action unarmed attack, where it takes an action to activate the ability in the first place. Once per rest. That's just too many drawbacks for a very minor benefit over the unarmed style.

Darthnazrael
2021-03-24, 04:18 PM
I keep forgetting that the 1d8 of UFS is conditional. Yeah, you can make it work with draw/stow switching every round, but that comes with its own drawbacks. As you say, the juice probably isn't worth the squeeze in that case.

ATHATH
2021-03-24, 09:57 PM
I understand that this would be precluded by the way you define heavyweight monk, but IMO it might be worth adding a third category for Monk's who use Strength but do not wear armor. People most commonly think of the Tortle (Static AC) or the Loxodon (AC = 13 + CON) in this instance, but I would imagine that there may b some way to make things work with select other races as well.
Minor correction: Loxodons get an NA AC of 12 + CON, not 13 + CON.

Darthnazrael
2021-04-14, 02:58 PM
The new Kobold in the Draconic UA seems like a natural fit here.

Man_Over_Game
2021-04-14, 04:41 PM
I dispute your claim that Ancestral Guardian doesn't fit all that well. Mixing it with a Monk option that has good escape options after a melee attack (Drunken Master, Open Hand, Astral Projection) means you can Reckless Attack with Advantage on all of your attacks and then evade before the enemy is allowed to counterattack you safely.

Since an Ancestral Guardian is stronger the harder he is to kill, and Monks can make themselves very scarce targets, there is a lot of synergy between the two that's easily missed.

Darthnazrael
2021-04-14, 06:18 PM
Don't forget Long Death on the list of tanky Monk subclasses that play well with Ancestral Guardian.

Man_Over_Game
2021-04-15, 10:28 AM
Don't forget Long Death on the list of tanky Monk subclasses that play well with Ancestral Guardian.

That one, I'm really iffy on. Long Death Monks rely heavily on Wisdom for their features, and a Str-monk is already stretched pretty thin. Also, you're required to be in melee range for Long Death, while AG's value is in the fact that you are still tanking while running away.

The best-case scenario for an AG is whatever makes them make weapon attacks, be the most difficult target to hit, and still let's them use Strength, and Long Death doesn't support many of that.

x3n0n
2021-04-15, 10:34 AM
That one, I'm really iffy on. Long Death Monks rely heavily on Wisdom for their features, and a Str-monk is already stretched pretty thin. Also, you're required to be in melee range for Long Death, while AG's value is in the fact that you are still tanking while running away.

The best-case scenario for an AG is whatever makes them make weapon attacks, be the most difficult target to hit, and still let's them use Strength, and Long Death doesn't support many of that.

I'm very surprised that you say that the WotLD Monk relies heavily on Wis. I'd rank it as one of the least Wis-sensitive Monastic Traditions; Stunning Strike and Hour of Reaping are the only things I see. Also, if you're Reaping, you're not attacking to trigger AG (and if you're Stunning, AG doesn't do anything).

Man_Over_Game
2021-04-15, 10:41 AM
I'm very surprised that you say that the WotLD Monk relies heavily on Wis. I'd rank it as one of the least Wis-sensitive Monastic Traditions; Stunning Strike and Hour of Reaping are the only things I see. Also, if you're Reaping, you're not attacking to trigger AG (and if you're Stunning, AG doesn't do anything).

Your capstone is a save effect, which scales off of your Wisdom.

3 out of 4 of your Monk powers in LD scale off of Wisdom, and the one exception is a level 11 power (when you're already looking at 3 levels into Barbarian).

Two of those powers require your Action, so you're likely not getting your AG powers for that round.

Long Death is something I'd recommend to a more "classic" vision of a tank, like a Cavalier or a Moon Druid. The kind that sits there and doesn't care what you do to them, which is the kind of situation that AGs are worst at (might as well have gone Bear Totem).

x3n0n
2021-04-15, 11:20 AM
Your capstone is a save effect, which scales off of your Wisdom.

3 out of 4 of your Monk powers in LD scale off of Wisdom, and the one exception is a level 11 power (when you're already looking at 3 levels into Barbarian).

Two of those powers require your Action, so you're likely not getting your AG powers for that round.

Long Death is something I'd recommend to a more "classic" vision of a tank, like a Cavalier or a Moon Druid. The kind that sits there and doesn't care what you do to them, which is the kind of situation that AGs are worst at (might as well have gone Bear Totem).

I was totally mis-remembering how the THP worked. My bad. <facepalm />

I also think that you're being a little bit unfair to the AG, if anything--with Rage in play, he makes a perfectly good "classic" tank, and any WotLD THP are effectively doubled by having resistance. That is, ranged attacks are the most abusive/effective way to use AG's power, but the raging Barb chassis is actually just fine there. Note also that the Monk/Barb can attack/mark and Dodge in the same turn.

Man_Over_Game
2021-04-15, 12:01 PM
I was totally mis-remembering how the THP worked. My bad. <facepalm />

I also think that you're being a little bit unfair to the AG, if anything--with Rage in play, he makes a perfectly good "classic" tank, and any WotLD THP are effectively doubled by having resistance. That is, ranged attacks are the most abusive/effective way to use AG's power, but the raging Barb chassis is actually just fine there. Note also that the Monk/Barb can attack/mark and Dodge in the same turn.

Having played an AG as a "classic" tank, it's not all that great. You only have a subclass when the thing you're adjacent to decides to ignore you, and how often does that happen? You could pull the same thing off with the Sentinel feat on any other Barbarian and still have it do more and cost less.

It was probably the worst character I've ever played, mostly just because I was playing it wrong.

Just because you're not getting hit now doesn't mean those HPs are lost, you can still throttle your aggression to soak more damage by just sticking around as an AG when your party gets low.

x3n0n
2021-04-15, 12:10 PM
Having played an AG as a "classic" tank, it's not all that great. You only have a subclass when the thing you're adjacent to decides to ignore you, and how often does that happen?

It was probably the worst character I've ever played, most just because I was playing it wrong.

Interesting (and sad--I'm sorry to hear it).

The counter-factual seems relevant; did you have other party members who were causing them significant pain? (Archers? Casters?)
If not, then that (unfortunately) totally makes sense.

The AG subclass is basically a big beacon that says that the biggest scariest bad guy can't productively attack the rest of your party. If they were *already* going to ignore the rest of your party, then your subclass is irrelevant.
If they *would have* risked the opportunity attack to run away from you and beat up on your teammates but chose not to because they were marked, then your subclass is "invisible", but it did what it needed to do.

I'm missing how that's a different situation from (say) Cavalier, which seems like it has a less effective version of the same thing at 3rd level.

Man_Over_Game
2021-04-15, 12:17 PM
Interesting (and very sad--I'm sorry to hear it).

The counter-factual seems relevant; did you have other party members who were causing them significant pain? (Archers? Casters?)
If not, then that totally makes sense.

The AG subclass is basically a big beacon that says that the biggest scariest bad guy can't productively attack the rest of your party. If they were *already* going to ignore the rest of your party, then your subclass is irrelevant.
If they *would have* risked the opportunity attack to run away from you and beat up on your teammates but chose not to because they were marked, then your subclass is "invisible", but it did what it needed to do.

I'm missing how that's a different situation from (say) Cavalier, which seems like it has a less effective version of the same thing at 3rd level.

AG adds tankiness to allies when they're hit by the AG's target, Cavalier adds damage when allies are Hit by the Cavalier's target. One is a support-tank, the other is a damage-tank.

Cavalier also requires you to be within 5 feet of your target and has some extra mobility on horseback.

The Cavalier also gets some self-defense stuff, of which the AG does not.

So the AG attacks and then kites, while the Cavalier rushes to where he is needed most and then locks the target down. Cavalier, weirdly enough, functions well in the enemy's back line while the AG wants to retreat into his own while taunting their bruisers.

That's why I'd say Monk/Cavalier is a good combo, since you can lock enemies down and then use the Dodge BA to force them into no good positions. The same is true for the AG, you can just take it a step further by making yourself an even harder target by running away.

x3n0n
2021-04-15, 12:31 PM
AG adds tankiness to allies when they're hit by the AG's target, Cavalier adds damage when allies are Hit by the Cavalier's target. One is a support-tank, the other is a damage-tank.

Cavalier also requires you to be within 5 feet of your target and has some extra mobility on horseback.

The Cavalier also gets some self-defense stuff, of which the AG does not.

So the AG attacks and then kites, while the Cavalier rushes to where he is needed most and then locks the target down. Cavalier, weirdly enough, functions well in the enemy's back line while the AG wants to retreat into his own while taunting their bruisers.


Maybe we're just talking about different things. My impression of a "tank" is that it's someone who is preventing the enemy from effectively attacking the target that would normally be the most advantageous.

An AG 3 seems like a fine tank, even in the traditional/"intended" melee: one bad guy can't attack anyone else meaningfully, and you have Rage-resistance to mitigate the damage done to you.
A Cavalier 3 seems like an OK tank: if you're next to the squishies, he can't hit them, but he can try to get away from you and take the OA and eventual punishment.
An Echo Knight with Sentinel seems like a fine tank: if the bad guy wants to come hit any of you, he has to risk the OA from your echo, or waste at least one attack trying to kill it.

AG *also* has the tactic you mentioned (marking the big bad at range and making yourself an even harder target), but I don't see why melee AG is necessarily bad.


The hypothetical AG3/WotLDX seems like a fine tank in both melee and at range: Monk mobility, extra THP during Rage, staying upright if you get down to 0 after hitting Monk 11, great saves if you eventually get to Monk 14.

"That's why I'd say Monk/Cavalier is a good combo, since you can lock enemies down and then use the Dodge BA to force them into no good positions."

I guess I just don't get why Cavalier 3 counts as "locking them down"; can't they still just run away and take the OA, ignoring your dodge, then have you punish them next turn? (And the "punish" doesn't seem particularly punishing--you get an advantaged BA attack instead of a normal BA attack.)

Man_Over_Game
2021-04-15, 12:53 PM
I guess I just don't get why Cavalier 3 counts as "locking them down"; can't they still just run away and take the OA, ignoring your dodge, then have you punish them next turn? (And the "punish" doesn't seem particularly punishing--you get an advantaged BA attack instead of a normal BA attack.)

The BA attack is with your weapon (more than martial arts die, likely), is with Advantage, and it does extra damage equal to half of your Fighter level.

The Cavalier also can get more Opportunity Attacks at later levels, so it's much less of a cost to them if you decide to provoke an OA.

As for tanking in general, it's important to note that your job as a "tank" in 5e isn't to absorb as much damage as possible, but to ensure that nobody in your party drops to 0 for as long as possible. And you are a member of that party. The more reason you have to get focused, the more you become the limiting factor.

A hit your Wizard takes is a hit that you didn't, which means you can absorb a hit later on in the fight that was supposed to have been meant for the Wizard. It's not a static role where 100% of the party's damage is dealt to one person, you take the damage in shifts. And you do so by throttling things like aggression, melee positioning, Reckless Attack, etc.

Stuff like Bear Totem is already an unlikable target due to their increased defenses, so you make yourself have more impact for when you're ignored (damage, Sentinel, etc). Stuff like AG is rewarding for when you're ignored, so you focus on making yourself a more-difficult target through extra defenses and evasion.

As long as your entire party hits 0 HP at the same time, you're doing it right. But, from my experience, the first people to fall are the ones with the most HP, so the strategy would then be to find a way to keep them from being killed so quickly (which either results in enemies diverting their fire to other targets, spreading the damage evenly, or continuing to attack the melee target and waste resources due to higher AC or whatever).

A lot of this is also DM dependent. Very few DMs have their enemies provoke OAs to attack something while they're already adjacent to an enemy, which has the effect of nerfing things like the Cavalier and Sentinel while giving a buff to Bear Totems and the like. And it's not like many DMs will choose to ignore the angry naked man just because his character sheet says he takes half damage while he's extra naked and extra angry.

Building the AG as a kiter is one of the few ways to get value from taunts without DM fiat, and you can still be a "classic tank" at any moment just by choosing not to run, essentially taking away the validation of your build from the list of the DM's responsibilities to now be in yours. Most DMs are happy when they don't have to treat you special to make you feel good, and stuff like the Cavalier is one of those classes that adds to the DM's load (like the Assassin, just in a combat setting).

x3n0n
2021-04-15, 01:06 PM
The BA attack is with your weapon (more than martial arts die, likely), is with Advantage, and it does extra damage equal to half of your Fighter level.

The Cavalier also can get more Opportunity Attacks at later levels, so it's much less of a cost to them if you decide to provoke an OA.

As for tanking in general, it's important to note that your job as a "tank" in 5e isn't to absorb as much damage as possible, but to ensure that nobody in your party drops to 0 for as long as possible. And you are a member of that party. The more reason you have to get focused, the more you become the limiting factor.

A hit your Wizard takes is a hit that you didn't, which means you can absorb a hit later on in the fight that was supposed to have been meant for the Wizard. It's not a static role where 100% of the party's damage is dealt to one person, you take the damage in shifts. And you do so by throttling things like aggression, melee positioning, Reckless Attack, etc.

Stuff like Bear Totem is already an unlikable target due to their increased defenses, so you make yourself have more impact for when you're ignored (damage, Sentinel, etc). Stuff like AG is rewarding for when you're ignored, so you focus on making yourself a more-difficult target through extra defenses and evasion.

As long as your entire party hits 0 HP at the same time, you're doing it right. But, from my experience, the first people to fall are the ones with the most HP, so the strategy would then be to find a way to keep them from being killed so quickly (which either results in enemies diverting their fire to other targets, spreading the damage evenly, or continuing to attack the melee target and waste resources due to higher AC or whatever).

In context of this thread, I thought we were talking about small dips of other classes on top of Str-primary Monk, so Cavalier 10 and 18 would be off the table, and your revenge attack bonus damage is 1. (I love me a Cavalier 18; I just don't see Cavalier 18 as being a dip for a Str Monk.)

You'll notice I never said anything about absorbing more damage--I said making the most valuable targets less accessible.

The issue with Wizards and non-Moon Druids getting hit is that they're hopefully concentrating on important effects like crowd control or summon spells, which are themselves saving the team's HP.
Way of the Long Death seems to be a really good pairing with Barb in general and AG in particular, getting large amounts of resistance-buffed THP to help tolerate the focused fire while the rest of your team rains hell.

follacchioso
2021-04-16, 01:38 AM
What are the pros and cons of this build, though? It would be good to have a section at the beginning of your guide to explain that.
What is better or worst compared to a lightweight monk? Or to a fighter with the unarmed fight style?

Darthnazrael
2021-04-16, 02:04 PM
What are the pros and cons of this build, though? It would be good to have a section at the beginning of your guide to explain that.
What is better or worst compared to a lightweight monk? Or to a fighter with the unarmed fight style?
I agree that this should be spelled out clearly at the beginning. For your convenience, here's the gist I've picked up.

PROS
• Better AC (Heavy Armor vs. Unarmored Defense)
• Stronger OAs, Extra Attack, and Granted Attacks (2d6 vs. 1d8-1d10)
• Synergy between Focused Aim and Great Weapon Master
• Benefits from Magic Armor
• Better Grappling
• Benefits greatly from multiclassing

CONS
• Slower (no Unarmored Movement)
• No bonus action attack without spending Ki (either for Focused Aim+Ki-Fueled Attack or Flurry of Blows)
• Armor-Dependent
• Weaker Initiative and Stealth
• Almost requires multiclassing

follacchioso
2021-04-16, 04:15 PM
Thanks! This is a very good guide, by the way. I've never played a monk so far, because MADness put me off. But this could be a way to overcome that.

ATHATH
2021-05-26, 01:53 AM
If you are a level 1 fighter / level 5 monk half-orc with the unarmed fighting style and Eldritch Adept for Devil's Sight, then in Darkness you can do 2x Greataxe +6 to-hit for 1d12+3 and 2x Unarmed Strike +6 to-hit for 1d6+3, with advantage on the attacks.

Sadly, Shadow Monks can't take the Eldritch Adept feat without dipping into a casting class, as Eldritch Adept has a prerequisite of "Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature", and pure Shadow Monks technically get neither of those (even though they can cast spells using Ki).

ATHATH
2021-05-26, 10:21 AM
The optional trait Favored Foe is nice and simple for a little splash of Ranger. Remember, anything that gives you more dice on all of your damage rolls is magnified in effect when you have lots of those rolls.


The first time on each of your turns that you hit the favored enemy and deal damage to it, including when you mark it, you increase that damage by 1d4.

:sadtrombone:

Segev
2021-05-26, 10:24 AM
:sadtrombone:

Yeah, you really need to use hunter's mark if you want to make Ranger's Concentration add extra damage to your attacks. The original UA version of Favored Foe would do that. The TCE version is...bad.

verbatim
2021-05-26, 12:17 PM
Armory wearing Strength Monk's have two strong 2 level dips for stacking on damage per hit imo:

1. Two levels in Ranger:
- Hunter's Mark Twice per long rest
- Medium Armor and Shield Proficiency
- Canny = Expertise on grappling (Athletics)
- Fighting Style is always nice
- Gloomstalker and Hunter are decent third levels that don't compete for your bonus action, + another spell slot for Hunter's Mark.


2. Two Levels in Barbarian:
- Rage adds damage per hit and gives advantage on grapple checks
- Damage resistance greatly improves monk's endurance


I had previously listed War Cleric as #3 for Divine Favor, but on closer inspection it only applies to weapon attacks.

Hairfish
2021-05-26, 02:40 PM
Divine Favor would increase unarmed strike damage (as would the war domain 8th level ability), as an unarmed strike is a form of weapon attack.

If DF required an "attack with a weapon" instead of a "weapon attack", then an unarmed strike wouldn't work. 5e terminology is picky that way.

verbatim
2021-05-26, 05:54 PM
Divine Favor would increase unarmed strike damage (as would the war domain 8th level ability), as an unarmed strike is a form of weapon attack.

If DF required an "attack with a weapon" instead of a "weapon attack", then an unarmed strike wouldn't work. 5e terminology is picky that way.

In that case a War Cleric certainly seems worth mentioning. On Armored Monk builds Divine Favor + Heavy Armor/Shield Proficiency + Toll the Dead for a one level dip seems worth arriving at the Monk's Extra Attack one level late.


Being able to bonus action weapon attack wisdom mod times per long rest also helps mitigate the fact that you can't bonus action unarmed strike as a monk while wearing armor.