MtG “Cascade” item - Is this going to be a problem?

[Blithe_Ring]

Hello everyone!

I have made something for my homebrew 5e campaign - an item or power, designed for a spellcaster (but with a sorcerer in mind specifically). It’s inspired by Magic: the Gathering’s Cascade mechanic, and the feeling of uncertainty, excitement, and power that comes with chaining spells together using Cascade in that game. Here’s the basic idea:

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Cascading Magic: When you cast a spell of level 1-5, roll a d6. On a 6, you can immediately (no action required) cast another spell you know of one spell level lower than the previous spell, and with a casting time of one action or one bonus action, without using a spell slot.
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The character this is designed for is a sorcerer who loves Chaos Bolt and the randomness that spell brings (but was not a big fan of the negative aspects to the Wild Magic table). The idea is of unpredictable magic, but without exploding the whole party by accident.

It’s probably strong. Free stuff always is. I’m not especially concerned with fine-tuned balance here. I can always build stronger monsters and/or other cool toys for my other players.

My concern is: is there some obvious thing (some combination of spells, perhaps) I’m missing here that will break a game? And is this likely to be fun from a player perspective?

[MoiMagnus]

The fact that you get to chose the spell kind of lose the idea of MtG Cascade IMO. Alternative idea:
(1) Roll a d20, call N the result
(2) Look at the Nth spell known of the sorcerer (if N is greater that the number of cantrip + spell known, nothing happens).
(3) If the spell is of a level lower than the spell current cast, and that the spell is applicable (casting time of an action or a BA, etc), then cast it for free.


But the more important problem is the spell components:
1) Spells that consume expensive spell components should probably be forbidden.
2) What about the other components? Are they ignored? Is the sorcerer forced to make them?

If you want to make it a balanced option, you might want to have it consume spell points (or even make it a metamagic option)

[Asmotherion]

-Make it use an Attunement Slot.
-Make the dice a d100 roll, and add several Possitive/Neutral/Negative stuff.

Alternativelly, make it an item that forces a Chaos Magic Sorcerer to roll on his table each time he casts a spell. Make it Prof. Bonus times per Short Rest, and you'll be fine I think.

[Blithe_Ring]

The fact that you get to chose the spell kind of lose the idea of MtG Cascade IMO. Alternative idea:
(1) Roll a d20, call N the result
(2) Look at the Nth spell known of the sorcerer (if N is greater that the number of cantrip + spell known, nothing happens).
(3) If the spell is of a level lower than the spell current cast, and that the spell is applicable (casting time of an action or a BA, etc), then cast it for free.


But the more important problem is the spell components:
1) Spells that consume expensive spell components should probably be forbidden.
2) What about the other components? Are they ignored? Is the sorcerer forced to make them?

If you want to make it a balanced option, you might want to have it consume spell points (or even make it a metamagic option)

Thanks MoiMagnus! The randomised approach definitely makes it more like how Cascade plays out in MtG. I think it may be too crunchy, though, and makes the order of spells known matter where it wouldn’t before? Also, if cantrips + spells known exceeds 20 it may stop working...

I think the fact that the MtG deck is inherently random makes it much easier to select the resulting spell randomly than it does in D&D. I definitely take the point of a randomised spell selection being more true to the concept. A table of results, perhaps similar to the Mizzium Apparatus table (where you roll a d8 and it spits out one of 8 spells), could be a better way of doing things.

Attunement definitely! I had shied away from charges (LR or SR) because the ability is inherently limited to only working 1/6th of the time (or less, if I were to choose a larger die size). An alternative design could be:

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Cascading Magic: When you cast a spell, you may use one charge (or X charges that come back on some type of rest) to cast an additional random spell from the Cascade list as a bonus action (or no action). Roll a d8 to determine the spell cast. The cascade spell requires no components, and is cast at its lowest level.

1. Earth Tremor
2. Chaos Bolt
3. Magic Missile
4. Etc.
5. Etc.
6. Etc.
7. Etc.
8. Etc.
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There could even be a list for each spell level, to retain the “cascade into a spell of one level lower” element of the original design. Or the random spell from the table could be proc’ed on a d6 roll of 6 per the original design. Either way, it would only include spells that don’t require concentration to avoid double-concentration issues.

There’s a lot of variants here! I like the idea of a table of predetermined spells to cast, selected randomly, because it removes my concern about there being some ridiculous “go-to” combo that’s always the best thing to do e.g. some persistent AOE plus a spell that incapacitates (Sickening Radiance and Hypnotic Pattern is probably real bad).

[Dalinar]

You could make it a Metamagic option instead of an item, perhaps. (Or an option unlocked by said item, which could grant 2 sorcery points per long rest to spend on said Metamagic.) (EDIT: Okay, I slightly misread the OP, and you've considered the Metamagic version already, but here's how I'd write it, as a rough draft anyway.)

Cascading Spell: Spend 2 sorcery points when you cast a non-cantrip spell with a casting time of 1 action or 1 bonus action. After its immediate effects are resolved, roll a d20. On a result lower than the level of the Cascading Spell, the caster must immediately cast a spell of that level with a casting time of 1 action or 1 bonus action. This spell consumes a spell slot as normal, unless the caster has no remaining slots of that level or does not know any spells of that level, in which case the spell fails. On any other result, the caster must immediately cast a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action or 1 bonus action. A spell cast by a Cascading Spell targets the same creature, object, or point in space as the original spell. A spell cast by a Cascading Spell does not use additional verbal, somatic, or material components, and it is cast as part of the same action or bonus action as the Cascading Spell, but it fails if it normally requires material components with a gold cost. You may use Metamagic on a spell cast by Cascading Spell, but the sorcery point cost is increased by 1 per Cascading Spell you've cast this turn.

Compare to Quickened Spell: same sorcery point cost, Quickened Spell gives you much more control, but Cascading Spell is the only way to my knowledge to get around the rule that prevents you from casting two leveled spells in the same turn.

Compare to MtG cascade: while I haven't played MtG since well before cascade was a thing, from what I'm reading cascading is mandatory (although casting the resulting spell is not), while the Metamagic option I've presented is, well, an option (but when you choose it, casting the resulting spell is not). An MtG spell cast by cascade that has the cascade property triggers another cascade; I left open the option to use Metamagic on the spell cast by a Cascading Spell, primarily so you can spend more points to Cascade again (but I left a ramping cost, so that the nova potential isn't too ridiculous before high levels). MtG's cascade resolves in reverse order compared to Cascading Spell.

I was looking for a way to randomly choose which particular spell is cast, but I don't see a good way to do that in a traditional tabletop setting (in a virtual tabletop I'd just say assign each spell to a number on a dX then roll it). So for now it'll just have to be a spell of a random level lower than the original spell, or a cantrip if you roll high.

Maybe the wording can be cleaned up?

Suggestions?


Sickening Radiance and Hypnotic Pattern

Those are both Concentration, so the latter would immediately cancel the former. I see what you mean about potential combos, though. Having a random spell level should alleviate a lot of that, as you'll have to improvise said combos on the fly based on your d20 roll.

If it seems weak, changing it to a d12 would result in the "cantrip" result much less frequently.

[Blithe_Ring]

Cascading Spell: Spend 2 sorcery points when you cast a non-cantrip spell with a casting time of 1 action or 1 bonus action. After its immediate effects are resolved, roll a d20. On a result lower than the level of the Cascading Spell, the caster must immediately cast a spell of that level with a casting time of 1 action or 1 bonus action. This spell consumes a spell slot as normal, unless the caster has no remaining slots of that level or does not know any spells of that level, in which case the spell fails. On any other result, the caster must immediately cast a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action or 1 bonus action. A spell cast by a Cascading Spell targets the same creature, object, or point in space as the original spell. A spell cast by a Cascading Spell does not use additional verbal, somatic, or material components, and it is cast as part of the same action or bonus action as the Cascading Spell, but it fails if it normally requires material components with a gold cost. You may use Metamagic on a spell cast by Cascading Spell, but the sorcery point cost is increased by 1 per Cascading Spell you've cast this turn.

Compare to Quickened Spell: same sorcery point cost, Quickened Spell gives you much more control, but Cascading Spell is the only way to my knowledge to get around the rule that prevents you from casting two leveled spells in the same turn.

Compare to MtG cascade: while I haven't played MtG since well before cascade was a thing, from what I'm reading cascading is mandatory (although casting the resulting spell is not), while the Metamagic option I've presented is, well, an option (but when you choose it, casting the resulting spell is not). An MtG spell cast by cascade that has the cascade property triggers another cascade; I left open the option to use Metamagic on the spell cast by a Cascading Spell, primarily so you can spend more points to Cascade again (but I left a ramping cost, so that the nova potential isn't too ridiculous before high levels). MtG's cascade resolves in reverse order compared to Cascading Spell.

I like the idea of this concept as Metamagic, too. Hadn’t really decided how to package it in game necessarily at this point, it could definitely work in this way.

I also really like how you’ve put a way of cascade-chaining in here, which is something that feels AWESOME when it happens in M:tG. The way I would do this is my original, d6-based design would be to “explode” the dice - each Cascaded spell would also trigger a d6 roll, and on a 6 would chain into another spell (and so on) - and now you’ve reminded me of the chain potential it HAS to be part of the final design. Too cool not to do.

“Cascading Spell” is wordy, obviously, but there’s a lot between components, concentration, casting time and affected area to consider here. It probably has to be wordy to cover all the corner cases. The use of the d20(/12) to determine the level of the “free” spell randomly is elegant in how it evokes the way the mechanic works in the card game, and the inclusion of cantrips is a good way to ensure you can’t “miss” with it.

I think whether to use Dalinar’s d20(/12) method to determine the slot level or to use a random table of preselected spells depends on whether the final design involves cascading into spells the caster actually knows. In M:tG you can’t cascade into a spell you don’t “know” since the result has to be in your deck. However, the randomness is probably easier to guarantee with a d8 table of preselected spells. I can easily envision a world where a caster with this ability would choose to intentionally know only one level 3 spell, for example, to maximise the chance of a cascade into Fireball (or whatever). Of course, this is also true to the source material as most competitive Cascade decks try to guarantee their resulting spell. But that’s not how I prefer to use it!

[Dalinar]

Appreciate the positive feedback :)

Maybe you could combine the two styles by allowing an attuned caster to "load" your Cascading Wand (or whatever we're calling it) with spells they know, somehow?

[Blithe_Ring]

OK, here are some new designs. This could go a number of different ways....

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MAGIC ITEM: Cascade Focus
Wondrous item, very rare. Requires attunement by a spellcaster.
It could be a wand, an orb, a ring, an amulet... it probably incorporates a multitude of different colours or refracts light in a scintillating rainbow.
This focus has 5 charges, which recover on a long rest. “At dawn”, or whatever.
When you cast a spell of 1st level or higher with a casting time of one action through this focus while attuned to it, roll a d6 after resolving the effects of the spell. On a roll of 6, you may expend one charge to immediately cast another spell as part of the same action. Roll on the Cascade table and cast that spell, using the same Spellcasting ability as the original spell used. Then roll the d6 again. On a roll of 6, you may repeat the above process without expending an additional charge, and continue to repeat this process until the d6 roll is less than 6.

All spells cast from the Cascade table ignore component requirements, and are cast at their lowest level.

Cascade Table - roll 1d20
1 Magic Missile
2 Command
3 Grease
4 Burning Hands
5 Dissonant Whispers
6 Chromatic Orb
7 Misty Step
8 Blindness/deafness
9 Melf’s Acid Arrow
10 Scorching Ray
11 Blink
12 Fireball
13 Lightning Bolt
14 Dispel Magic
15 Fire Shield
16 Ice Storm
17 Cone of Cold
18 Destructive Wave
19 Chain Lightning
20 Prismatic Spray
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This one above doesn’t cascade into lower-level spells (though it could, if you added a table for each spell level - it would also require language that makes chain cascades use lower-level tables, or removing the chain-cascade altogether). It does involve very small chances to chain first-level spells into huge evocations, though (3% chance to add a 5th level or higher spell to any given spell you cast and around a 0.1% chance to get two or more big guns). YMMV but that seems extremely cool to me.
Plenty to tweak to taste here:
For high complexity tolerance, mix some Concentration spells into the random list!
For extra spice, take the charges out and let it provide a cascade chance with every spell!
For milder palates, cut the big guns out of the random spell list!
For the very mildest of tastes, only let it do its cascade thing once per day!

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METAMAGIC: Cascading Spell.
When you cast a spell of 1st level or higher, you may spend 2 sorcery points to roll 1d12 after resolving the effects of the spell. If the result of the d12 roll is lower than the level of the spell you cast, you immediately cast another spell you know of a level equal to the number rolled on the d12 (no action required, but it does expend a spell slot of the appropriate level; if you have no slots of the appropriate level, you cast a cantrip you know instead as per below) with a casting time of one action or bonus action. If the second spell requires components with a value expressed in gold pieces, it fails. If the d12 roll is higher than the level of the spell you cast, you immediately cast a cantrip you know (no action required) with a casting time of one action or bonus action. You may choose to use the Cascading Spell Metamagic on the extra spells cast in this way, but it costs 1 additional sorcery point for every time you’ve used Cascading Spell this turn.
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Dalinar’s Metamagic option. The only thing I changed was the targeting stipulation - but if that breaks something I didn’t think about let me know!

I didn’t like the random table here. Since the source of the cascade effect is internal it should only produce effects the character themselves could produce. Plus, you then have to think about what resources are spent on your “free” spell. If it’s from a table and you didn’t know it in the first place, does it use a slot? It probably has to for balance.

One could also use the Metamagic option wording for a magic item that worked on the caster’s spells known, except it would use item charges not sorcery points, and casting cascade spells would not consume spell slots (because this cost would also be accounted for in charges spent).

[brainface]

OK, here are some new designs. This could go a number of different ways....
You may choose to use the Cascading Spell Metamagic on the extra spells cast in this way, but it costs 1 additional sorcery point for every time you’ve used Cascading Spell this turn.


I'd remove the cascade into cascade, if the dm ever wants to run a boss battle that lasts more than one round ^_^

Side note, as i learned last weekend when someone was about to mill themself through Too Many Cascades: Cascade is a may ability, and you can avoid casting the spell (say it's counterspell). These effects might want to use the same language so you don't fireball the party/literally counter your own cascado-spell.

Also I want in on this!

Spark Bolt
Level: 1
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 ft
Components: V,S
Duration: Instantaneous
School: Evocation

You launch a spark of chaotic magic at your opponent. Make a ranged spell attack. on a hit, the target takes 1d8 lightning damage and you select a cantrip at random that you know and has a single target and requires an attack roll or saving throw. You may cast it as a bonus action this turn, targeting the same creature regardless of range.

If you cast spark bolt using a higher level spell slot, increase the initial lightning damage by 1d8 for each spell level above first.

(Haha it's a spell with cascade!)

[Blithe_Ring]

I'd remove the cascade into cascade, if the dm ever wants to run a boss battle that lasts more than one round ^_^

Side note, as i learned last weekend when someone was about to mill themself through Too Many Cascades: Cascade is a may ability, and you can avoid casting the spell (say it's counterspell). These effects might want to use the same language so you don't fireball the party/literally counter your own cascado-spell.

I will admit the cascade-chain is probably going to wipe out a boss or two. But isn’t that what phases and/or multi-enemy encounters are for?

The wording on the cascade abilities almost certainly would need tightening up for an official publication... honestly, I’m a little afraid of just how wordy such an ability would need to be!

Cascade into counterspell is a classic MtG feel-bad; design working as intended?

[Vogie]

You could use the tables from the old Wizard Invention UA. It had a "reckless casting" feature that allowed something similar for cantrip through 5th level spells.

It was in the January 2018 release, I believe the first one.