Best Rogue subclass for a melee poisoner?

[Meichrob7]

I’m playing in a game with modified gestalt rules and some other cool features. It’s a level 4 game and we have a free feat and some high starting stats (18,16,14,12,10,8 before racial)

One of the restrictions is that we have is that one “side” of the gestalt combo has to be 4 levels of rogue.

I thought this would be a fun time to make use of the cheese with conjuration wizards being able to summon really powerful poison with their level 2 feature since it’s not a magic item like healing potions.

My plan was to take the poisoner feat or have my familiar apply the poison.

The build is pretty locked into melee for story reasons and while there might be some better uses of the levels, in planning on going full wizard 4 with the “unrestricted” levels.

But now I’m kinda stuck with the question of “what rogue subclass works best with poison while in melee?”

[samcifer]

Do be aware that you will likely face many foes who are flat out immune to poison. It's the worst damage type in the game with dozens of types of enemies who have immunity to poison and I mean immunity, not resistance. We're talking undead and constructs to name some of the most common types who are immune. Most people try to avoid poison damage for that reason. I love the idea, but it's only really viable in certain kinds of campaigns imo.

[mangosta71]

Swashbuckler is the best subclass for a melee rogue.

[dmhelp]

Can the thief subclass apply poison with a bonus action?

[Meichrob7]

Do be aware that you will likely face many foes who are flat out immune to poison. It's the worst damage type in the game with dozens of types of enemies who have immunity to poison and I mean immunity, not resistance. We're talking undead and constructs to name some of the most common types who are immune. Most people try to avoid poison damage for that reason. I love the idea, but it's only really viable in certain kinds of campaigns imo.

We're killing human kings, which is part of the reason I wanted to go with poison. I also think most builds that make use of poison could probably use something like alchemical fire or other potion effects, so In a longer campaign I don't think the build itself would suffer if you weren't super tied to poison as a thematic requirement

[stoutstien]

Can the thief subclass apply poison with a bonus action?

RaW probably not if the poisons provided from the feat are treated like the basic poison. RTMS it fits the theme and power level of thief's fast hands.

[Meichrob7]

Can the thief subclass apply poison with a bonus action?

Yah I think so, but a familiar can do it for free and there's the poisoner feat too so it seems a bit silly to take the subclass just for that.

[Meichrob7]

RaW probably not if the poisons provided from the feat are treated like the basic poison. RTMS it fits the theme and power level of thief's fast hands.

Is applying poison not an object interaction? I thought it was just magic items which were explicitly not object interacts?

[Segev]

Locked into melee, but can you pick up whichever feat it is that lets you attack with ranged weapons in melee? Ammo can be pre-loaded with poison for easier constant use.

Alternatively, if you can get martial weapon proficiency (or at least proficiency with the trident), you could argue that the trident has three surfaces to which to apply poison, letting you hit with three doses in a single blow.

[stoutstien]

Is applying poison not an object interaction? I thought it was just magic items which were explicitly not object interacts?

Eh unclear. Most tables run it that way for good reasons but YMMV. Sort of how you can use a flask of holy water but can't 'attack' with the same flask using fast hands because reasons. Can get into weird cases with anything that can deal damage.

[Vogie]

You would need a Rogue Subclass that doesn't use a bonus action if you're using the Poisoner feat from Tasha's. That basically means either Swashbuckler (for the free disengage) or use of the Mobile feat, since you're going to need to get in and out in a flash.

However, the other posters are correct - you're gonna need some homebrew, DM fiat, or both to make this build work for any length of time.

Poison is flavorfully awesome, but mechanically nerfed. The way it's set up is that it deals the most damage precisely BECAUSE it is the most resistance and immunified of all the damage types. That's because it's essentially a damage type best used by Monsters against PCs, and since everything is parallel between the two, it hangs out as basically a trap option for PCs.

However, if you and your DM can come to some sort of agreement on a homebrew effectiveness, either by changing the impact on the monsters (by changing what resistance/immunity means), or by changing the damage type (a la Witcher-esque 'weapon oil' mechanic)... you could have something really cool.

[Chugger]

Arcane Trickster is the best rogue for most uses, unless your DM hates familiars and has nerfed them.

Your level one non-illusion-ench spell is Find Familiar. Use your owl to get advantage every turn.

Be some sort of elf. I like to set Dex at 17 (point buy) and Con at 16. At lvl 4 take Elven Accuracy.

Now, whenever you hit, you essentially get to roll 3 d 20 - you almost never miss - and you crit more often. Your melee damage output is going to be pretty high.

Later, when you get Haste, you can do the trick to ready your action but use your haste attack on your turn. Your readied action is set to happen the moment your turn ends. It ends, and in this case an ally has to be near the target to qualify for s.a. - but you get a second sneak attack on the round (not on the turn - but on the round yes you can do two s.a's, one on your turn and one as a reaction). Now your melee damage output is even higher.

Are you using b.a. to apply poison? If so A.T. doesn't have to use his b.a. to hide and get s.a. like other rogues - his fam gives him advantage and thus s.a. So use your b.a. for something else.

Oh, A.T. can also take booming blade as a cantrip. The melee side of the damage equation just keeps piling on. A.T. is insanely powerful in other ways. If you hide and then cast Hypnotic Pattern, every enemy you hid from makes the ST at disadvantage! This is brutal. Sure, not all encounters are w/ enemies that are susceptible to HP, but they often are - and this shuts down a bunch of them, if they're in the area of effect.

You figure out if poison works - I find poison kind of meh because I play a lot of AL, and poison is a pain to use there. And it's probably the most resisted/immune damage type there is.

[Kane0]

Eh i’m not a fan of relying on the helping familiar trick, always feels so flimsy being only one ranged attack or magic missile away from being removed

[Witty Username]

RaW probably not if the poisons provided from the feat are treated like the basic poison. RTMS it fits the theme and power level of thief's fast hands.

The poisoner feat allows poison to be applied to a weapon or piece of ammunition as a bonus action instead of an action. (Directly from Tasha's wording)
So, yes a theif with poisoner can apply the poison as a bonus action, so can any other rogue with poisoner.

P.S. I think the DMG states that you can use an action to apply poison, either to a weapon or up to three pieces of ammunition, never mind that is from basic poison in the PHB.

[ImproperJustice]

Poison is a commonly resisted damage type, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t use it. It will work fine as part of your toolkit.
Especially if the GM allows you to take poisons from fallen monsters that are venomous.

Really any Rogue will do just fine with it.
The feat lets you apply poison as part of a bonus action for any character.

[Segev]

Especially if the GM allows you to take poisons from fallen monsters that are venomous.

How many doses can you get? Especially if the monster is still alive?

Remember: they have no limit to how often they can apply the poison, save their number of attacks. If you're milking them, how many times can you do so before they're exhausted, and how long until they're refreshed?

[stoutstien]

The poisoner feat allows poison to be applied to a weapon or piece of ammunition as a bonus action instead of an action. (Directly from Tasha's wording)
So, yes a theif with poisoner can apply the poison as a bonus action, so can any other rogue with poisoner.

P.S. I think the DMG states that you can use an action to apply poison, either to a weapon or up to three pieces of ammunition, never mind that is from basic poison in the PHB.

Aye. I had all he different sources mixed up I my head. The DMG option I guess would work however a DM adjudicates.

[ImproperJustice]

How many doses can you get? Especially if the monster is still alive?

Remember: they have no limit to how often they can apply the poison, save their number of attacks. If you're milking them, how many times can you do so before they're exhausted, and how long until they're refreshed?

Our GM rules that you make a poisoners toolkit check w/ these results:

DC 10: 1 dose
1 extra dose dose per day that your result exceeds that check by 5.

Anymore than that depletes the critters supply for the day.
Typically something a character does not wish to do.

It works well enough for us.

Typically we see it most with our Ranger milking his giant snake to add to his arrow strikes.
He was thrilled to hear about the poisoner feat.

[micahaphone]

I would think inquisitive rogue would be a good thematic combo with wizard - you fight using your intellect. You could see if you DM would let you swap the perception check to investigation for Insightful Fighting. It would take your first bonus action vs a target, but I'll assume your weapon was coated with some initial poison ahead of time

[Segev]

Our GM rules that you make a poisoners toolkit check w/ these results:

DC 10: 1 dose
1 extra dose dose per day that your result exceeds that check by 5.

Anymore than that depletes the critters supply for the day.
Typically something a character does not wish to do.

It works well enough for us.

Typically we see it most with our Ranger milking his giant snake to add to his arrow strikes.
He was thrilled to hear about the poisoner feat.

I like that. Thanks for sharing it.

[Theodoxus]

How many doses can you get? Especially if the monster is still alive?

Remember: they have no limit to how often they can apply the poison, save their number of attacks. If you're milking them, how many times can you do so before they're exhausted, and how long until they're refreshed?

Doesn't really matter...

Minor Conjuration only stipulates that it must be a 'non-magical object that you have seen.' Not even studied, or gathered and mucked with, with your poisoner/alchemical/herbalism kit.

You could literally go to the Waterdeep Zoo and look at a purple worm in action and then forever create 10 pounds of purple worm venom on a whim, as an action.

Personally, I wouldn't go the melee route (but I agree Swashbuckler would be the best for that), but go ranged. Dump the poison into the bottom of my quiver (after sealing to make it waterproof) and my arrowheads just sit in it. Each arrow would then do 1d6+12d6 (poison) + xd6 sneak attack + Dex mod on a hit...

Broken AF.

Of course, this does require 1) being in FR or otherwise large city with a zoo. 2) said zoo having a purple worm on exhibit (their burrowing ability would make containment... problematic sans adamantine or walls of force) and 3) patience waiting to get that all elusive glimpse of the poison.

But man, what a fun backstory! "Yeah, I grew up in Waterdeep (or equivalent in whatever world the game takes part of) and my father was a caretaker at the zoo. He took me to work with him one day, and we stopped at the purple worm exhibit. Sadly, that was the day my father was killed... when he was going to put a goat in the worm's pen, the fencing gave way and he fell into the enclosure. That worm was so fast... it's maw gaped open and it tore into my fathers legs faster than I could scream, and then that tail... it's forever etched in my nightmares, dripping that greenish purple ichor... and it stabbed poor dad in the heart. But by all the gods, did I get a good look at that poison! And now that I'm a conjurer, I summon up a gallon of it at a time! yeah, it weirdly glows, but that's ok. I take vengeance for my father with every poison tipped arrow I shoot."

ETA: talking it over with my resident munchkin, we realized you don't even need to see the PW alive. Just go to the towns high end alchemist, who more than likely has PW venom for sale and ask to see the vial. Even at 1st level - you don't have to buy it, just see it. Might take a persuasion check, but that's kind of a d move - the owner doesn't know you're 1st level, or broke... they'll bring it out to show hoping for a sale.