Optimization [3.5] Building Around Whirlwind Attack [Archive]

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2021-03-18, 07:15 PM

Get a longer natural reach (Deformity: Tall, or Inhuman Reach), Spiked Chain, maybe Duskblade 13 for channeling on a full attack, and I guess Ur-Priest 4 to cast DMM: Twinned, Lesser Rod of Maximized, Shivering Touch with that? Can't really beat hitting everything within 20 ft. of you for 36 Dex damage no save.

Alternatively, be large size (preferably) or have powerful build, War Hulk 10 so every attack you make hits everyone you can reach. Ideally take Fighter 6 for Dungeoncrasher, Knock-Back, and be able to fly so you can bull rush them into the ground. Granted there's a bit of ambiguity on whether the War Hulk's swings can be used with a special attack, so if that won't work....

War Mind 5 gets the ability to make any attack hit two adjacent opponents. Take Sanctified Mind after that to max out manifesting, since it doesn't grant anything great after 7th.

You could go with some kind of arcane gish build and use a (Persistent) Thunderlance, which uses your spellcasting ability for attack and damage rolls and hits anywhere from adjacent to 20 ft. away. Throw on Fell Frighten/Weaken/Drain if it would be delivered multiple times if the spell deals damage to the same creature over multiple rounds at your table. Or buff the thunderlance (or whatever weapon you use) with Fell Frighten/Weaken/Drain Burning Sword, Infernal Wound, Sonic Weapon, and whatever else you can find that delivers a separate instance of damage per attack. Throw in Dread Witch so Fell Frighten can affect creatures immune to fear, and three instances of shaken cause the creature to be panicked. Maybe swap the Thunderlance for a wooden or bone weapon plus Unguent of Timelessness to trick the spells you cast on it into lasting 365 times longer.

RaiKirah

2021-03-18, 07:32 PM

Improve you reach first:

(Natural Reach)Reach Weapon)
(5')10' --> Reach Weapon (Spiked Chain)
(10')20' --> Stoneblessed (Goliath 3) into Barbarian with Mountain Rage to get large
(15')30' --> Hidden Talent (Expansion) to get Huge
(20')40' --> Willing Deformity + Deformity (Tall) +5'
(25')45' --> Warshaper 3 for +5'
(30')50' --> Extended Reach (Savage Species) (Qualify with Warshaper) for +5'

Movement and Skirmish are good ideas, if you can get Sneak Attack and Staggering Strike even better (use Gloom Razor to make everyone you hit in your reach count as flatfooted next turn)

Knock-Back could be fun to clear an area. With Dungeoncrasher and a silly reach you have a good chance of knocking folks into walls for extra damage

So, Changeling Binder 3/Stoneblessed 3/Barbarian 1/Warshaper 3/Swordsage 2 (only one level if you are of the school of thought that lets you get Assassin's Stance at level 1)/etc.

Elves

2021-03-18, 08:01 PM

rather than stoneblessed 3/mountain rage, just take half-minotaur.
gloom razor trick doesn't work. whirlwind attack is one attack against each foe you threaten, not one attack that affects each foe you threaten.
skirmish seems like it could be a pain when you're also trying to maximize the number of foes you can affect. Also adds very little damage unless you make it a major build element.

I wonder if Inhuman Reach "you can bend [your arms] in strange and unnatural ways" counts as a "nonrigid attack form" for Extended Reach. Not that important since a graft can give you tentacle.

Get a longer natural reach (Deformity: Tall, or Inhuman Reach), Spiked Chain, maybe Duskblade 13 for channeling on a full attack, and I guess Ur-Priest 4 to cast DMM: Twinned, Lesser Rod of Maximized, Shivering Touch with that? Can't really beat hitting everything within 20 ft. of you for 36 Dex damage no save.
Cool. Puts you low on class levels though so prob want to skip binder and use golden pegleg to qualify for Whirlwind Attack.

War Hulk 10
Its swing is a full round action not a full attack action. Monk's decisive strike has the same problem.

Maybe swap the Thunderlance for a wooden or bone weapon plus Unguent of Timelessness to trick the spells you cast on it into lasting 365 times longer.
That's hilarious. With liberal interpretation kaorti resin might also qualify.

Blue Jay

2021-03-18, 08:31 PM

Simplest answer would be lockdown based meteor hammer tripper trying to qualify for the Broken Fist Mastery II and Dance of Blades martial arts styles (see here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?558893-Complete-Martial-Arts-Styles)). Dancing pegleg graft certainly helps to make it less feat intensive depending on your level. Large size race ideal.

You have a strange definition of the word "simple."

[War Hulk's] swing is a full round action not a full attack action.

At first, it is: but it becomes an attack action at 4th level. From Miniatures Handbook:

"Mighty Swing (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a war hulk can make a mighty swing. A mighty swing is like a great swing, except that it is an attack rather than a full-round action. Thus, the character can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round."

I doubt you could combine Mighty Swing with Whirlwind Attack, and I'm not sure how it would work if you could; but the language "it is an attack" might leave it open to a shenanigan like that.

Elves

2021-03-18, 08:54 PM

Book says "standard action", not "attack". If it's an "attack" it works. Interesting for factotum builds though. I could see fac8/hulk10/monk2 with decisive strike. Cunning surge routine is decisive strike (normal turn) + several standard action mighty swing trip attacks. Non cunning surge routine is full round action mighty swing. 7 BAB but doesn't matter since you aren't making any full attacks. (low +atk though so wraithstrike).

Anthrowhale

2021-03-18, 09:57 PM

If the character is a Dvati pair that takes Double Team (also from Dragon Compendium), then both elements of the pair could execute a whirlwind attack with sneak attack damage applying to every creature threatened by both elements of the Dvati pair.

Using Ghostform(Spell) + Power Attack(feat) + Giant Size (Spell) with a Spiked Chain, you might be dealing 2x (6d6(base)+38(Power Attack)+19(Craven)+10d6(Sneak attack)+5(enhance)) ~= 222 damage in a 60' radius zone of destruction.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2021-03-18, 10:42 PM

How about go Druid 17 with the Trappings of the Beast set in CC, turn into a Tyrannosaurus and use Animal Growth to grow to gargantuan size. Your bite can swallow whole anything up to two sizes smaller than yourself, at huge that's 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents. So at gargantuan size, it would instead be 2 large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, or 128 Tiny or smaller opponents. One large opponent counts as 4 medium opponents, but you could gulp down a significant number of enemies in a single turn. You would have a 20 ft. space with a 15 ft. reach, or a 50 ft. diameter area you can whirlwind attack with bites.

Or go with something that can Polymorph into a Cave Tyrannosaurus and cast Giant Size to grow to colossal size. That way you can swallow up to 2 huge, 8 large, 32 medium, or 128 small or smaller opponents. That's a 30 ft. space with a 20 ft. reach, for a 70 ft. diameter area to gobble up opponents from.

Maat Mons

2021-03-18, 11:17 PM

Nifft

2021-03-18, 11:24 PM

Form of Pounce would be useful.

Is Pounce compatible with Whirlwind Attack?

Saintheart

2021-03-19, 12:33 AM

Is Pounce compatible with Whirlwind Attack?

SRD version IMHO leaves open the possibility at RAW:

When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

It takes a reading that a full attack is the same as using the full attack action. Yes, Whirlwind Attack says that when you use the feat, you forego any bonus or extra attacks granted by other abilities. But, necessarily, you don't use the Whirlwind Attack feat until you've already charged and closed with the enemy. You've moved but you haven't attacked.

It's a DMG-flight-worthy reading, sure, but it's a reading. :smallsmile:

Elves

2021-03-19, 12:40 AM

Yes you can whirlwind pounce

Nifft

2021-03-19, 02:32 AM

SRD version IMHO leaves open the possibility at RAW:

It takes a reading that a full attack is the same as using the full attack action. Yes, Whirlwind Attack says that when you use the feat, you forego any bonus or extra attacks granted by other abilities. But, necessarily, you don't use the Whirlwind Attack feat until you've already charged and closed with the enemy. You've moved but you haven't attacked.

It's a DMG-flight-worthy reading, sure, but it's a reading. :smallsmile:

You're right, that's clearly in favor -- you follow Pounce with a full attack, and Whirlwind Attack describes itself as a full attack.

Cool, that removes the need for Travel Devotion, and replaces it with Barbarian 1.

Gruftzwerg

2021-03-19, 04:28 AM

Elves

2021-03-19, 03:53 PM

The errata for Miniatures Handbook is no longer linked on any WotC page that I can find. But I did find a working link (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/dnd_mi_errata.pdf) in an old thread on these very boards.

And there you go:
War Hulk: In the mighty swing ability, replace "standard action" with "attack."

So yes, war hulk does work with Whirlwind Attack. So you get to attack each opponent a number of times equal to the total number of opponents in your reach. That's fairly epic.

Now you need one of those chicken commoners to spew out a bunch of chickens for you to attack every round.

I guess if you yourself take chicken infested you can get an infinite number of attacks.

RNightstalker

2021-03-20, 01:33 PM

and finally we arrived at a ranged ubercharger build.

pounce + whirlwind + bloodstorm blade overshadows the original concept by Turbane.

Dunno if that was the intent here? If yes, I can offer some related builds (but I guess Turbane should already know em from my frequent posts about them^^).

But still, the Dance of Death should also work with whirlwind + bloodstorm blade (if you rule that WWA only makes a single attack for all enemies and not a single attack for each enemy - depends on DM, since the rules are not clear here.

alternatively as already mentioned Warshaper can give your some Natural Weapons.
Pick the "Bites" attack from a Hydra (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm)(up to 12). Since you lack the heads, you grow now Hydra heads. These all attack at max BAB (like Claws) and allow you to move and attack with all of em at once.

The question here is really, how silly and OP you wanna have it?^^

And there you go:
War Hulk: In the mighty swing ability, replace "standard action" with "attack."

So yes, war hulk does work with Whirlwind Attack. So you get to attack each opponent a number of times equal to the total number of opponents in your reach. That's fairly epic.

Now you need one of those chicken commoners to spew out a bunch of chickens for you to attack every round.

I guess if you yourself take chicken infested you can get an infinite number of attacks.

How would those work? Could y'all share a quick build on this?

loky1109

2021-03-20, 02:33 PM

Now you need one of those chicken commoners to spew out a bunch of chickens for you to attack every round.
I guess if you yourself take chicken infested you can get an infinite number of attacks.
Baf-of-rats fighter strikes back!

Zaq

2021-03-20, 03:33 PM

Elves

2021-03-20, 03:39 PM

Pretty sure the text of Whirlwind Attack explicitly bans this.
The beauty of it is it doesn't. It only specifies extra attacks, and hulk smash is a single attack that applies to multiple opponents.

Baf-of-rats fighter strikes back!
Hulk Colonel Sanders is even more infinite. And you get bitten less

And depending on how you read it Cleave might also fall under the extra attacks clause making rat fighter illegal.

Nihilarian

2021-03-20, 08:54 PM

Full Attack action means it works with Duskblade's Arcane Channeling starting at 13th level. Bit if a wait though.

Darg

2021-03-20, 09:21 PM

And there you go:
War Hulk: In the mighty swing ability, replace "standard action" with "attack."

So yes, war hulk does work with Whirlwind Attack. So you get to attack each opponent a number of times equal to the total number of opponents in your reach. That's fairly epic.

Now you need one of those chicken commoners to spew out a bunch of chickens for you to attack every round.

I guess if you yourself take chicken infested you can get an infinite number of attacks.

War Mind's Sweeping Strike can hit up to 3 targets and 1 doesn't have to be adjacent to the other 2. Both classes abilities can be combined to affect 5 total squares per attack.

And depending on how you read it Cleave might also fall under the extra attacks clause making rat fighter illegal.

When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell).

I believe the bag of x animal trick was the reason the forfeit clause was added.

InvisibleBison

2021-03-20, 09:34 PM

Elves

2021-03-20, 09:51 PM

I believe the bag of x animal trick was the reason the forfeit clause was added.
Good, so Chicken Man comes out victorious.

Saintheart

2021-03-20, 10:22 PM

I don't think you can meaningfully benefit from combining Bloodstorm Blade with Whirlwind Attack. Whirlwind Attack only lets you attack enemies within your reach, and Bloodstorm Blade doesn't do anything to change your reach.

Insert here the standard argument about how Bloodstorm Blade extends your reach because of the following text from Thunderous Throw stretched like old chewing gum:

As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your melee attack bonus, including Strength bonus, feats, and so forth, to determine your attack bonus for each attack as normal, but you apply the standard modifiers for range penalties.

I'm treating my ranged attack rolls as melee attacks, therefore if I can hit it with Thunderous Throw, it counts as being within my reach. Or something.

Raishoiken

2021-03-20, 11:31 PM

Insert here the standard argument about how Bloodstorm Blade extends your reach because of the following text from Thunderous Throw stretched like old chewing gum:

As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your melee attack bonus, including Strength bonus, feats, and so forth, to determine your attack bonus for each attack as normal, but you apply the standard modifiers for range penalties.

I'm treating my ranged attack rolls as melee attacks, therefore if I can hit it with Thunderous Throw, it counts as being within my reach. Or something.

Afb rn, but is there a glossary definition for reach to make this not work? It's always seemed cheesy as hell but fair enough

Edit: looks like you specifically threaten any squares you can make a melee attack into *shrug*
Ph1 page 137

Nifft

2021-03-20, 11:44 PM

Insert here the standard argument about how Bloodstorm Blade extends your reach because of the following text from Thunderous Throw stretched like old chewing gum:

As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your melee attack bonus, including Strength bonus, feats, and so forth, to determine your attack bonus for each attack as normal, but you apply the standard modifiers for range penalties.

I'm treating my ranged attack rolls as melee attacks, therefore if I can hit it with Thunderous Throw, it counts as being within my reach. Or something.

Hmm.

Treating ranged attack rolls as melee attacks during your turn doesn't sound like it touches your threatened area, since it's not conferring Reach of any kind but rather allowing you to resolve a ranged attack in a different way.

Can a Monk deflect one of these ranged-but-melee attacks?

Saintheart

2021-03-21, 12:01 AM

Hmm.

Treating ranged attack rolls as melee attacks during your turn doesn't sound like it touches your threatened area, since it's not conferring Reach of any kind but rather allowing you to resolve a ranged attack in a different way.

Can a Monk deflect one of these ranged-but-melee attacks?

Next time I'll make sure I use the blue text :smallbiggrin:

Crake

2021-03-21, 12:27 AM

I'm treating my ranged attack rolls as melee attacks, therefore if I can hit it with Thunderous Throw, it counts as being within my reach. Or something.

Except being within reach also means you threaten, and bloodstorm blade does not threaten everything within the range of it's thrown attacks. It merely can treat ranged attacks as melee attacks. The ability does not extend it's reach in any way.

Gruftzwerg

2021-03-21, 02:26 AM

Full Attack action means it works with Duskblade's Arcane Channeling starting at 13th level. Bit if a wait though.
I have an optimized Shivering Touch build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528541-Shivering-Tornado-of-Death-Arcane-Channeling-optimization) around this (BSB + Whirlwind + Arcane Channeling).
(Note: there is also a rule discussion regarding this in the link of the build. maybe interesting here)

_____________

I don't think you can meaningfully benefit from combining Bloodstorm Blade with Whirlwind Attack. Whirlwind Attack only lets you attack enemies within your reach, and Bloodstorm Blade doesn't do anything to change your reach.
"Reach" is an undefined term in 3.5
We have a definition for "natural reach", "reach weapons" and "threatened area/squares". But not for just simple "reach". But from the rules we have we can assume that "reach" covers:
Reach = Natural Reach + possible Reach Weapon + any other reach enhancements
Reach is determined by your ability to make melee attacks (without moving) into a certain space/square. Anything that helps you here, counts towards your reach.

Except being within reach also means you threaten, and bloodstorm blade does not threaten everything within the range of it's thrown attacks. It merely can treat ranged attacks as melee attacks. The ability does not extend it's reach in any way.
Why it shouldn't threaten them? This is the reason why the ability is limited to "end of your turn" and doesn't use the more common "end of the round" term. (Otherwise the BSB would have the increased threatened area for his AoO all the time. This way it only counts for "his turn", limiting the AoO potential immensely to a sane level.

By the way, BSB lets you qualify for the definition of "Reach Weapons":

A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach
BSB allows you to use a melee weapon at range and let it count back as melee attack. As such it qualifies for anything mandatory to count as a reach weapon. Anything that comes after "Most rest weapons.." ain't a binding rule for all reac weapons.
As such, any melee weapon that a BSB uses for this combo becomes temporary a reach weapon by definition.

edit: sine there seems to be an interest into this specific combo, have also a look at my 2 ranged ubercharger builds (for those interested):
Hammerdin of Moradin (link see signature)
ShurikeNado (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?526875)

InvisibleBison

2021-03-21, 07:34 AM

"Reach" is an undefined term in 3.5
We have a definition for "natural reach", "reach weapons" and "threatened area/squares". But not for just simple "reach". But from the rules we have we can assume that "reach" covers:
Reach = Natural Reach + possible Reach Weapon + any other reach enhancements
Reach is determined by your ability to make melee attacks (without moving) into a certain space/square. Anything that helps you here, counts towards your reach.

All abilities that change your reach explicitly say that they are doing so. Bloodstorm Blade never says anything about changing your reach, therefore it doesn't change your reach.

Gruftzwerg

2021-03-21, 08:43 AM

All abilities that change your reach explicitly say that they are doing so. Bloodstorm Blade never says anything about changing your reach, therefore it doesn't change your reach.

Even if you want to insist on that statement (where I disagree), the ability gives you everything needed to let your melee weapon count as a reach weapon. See my previous post. And since a reach weapon undeniably affects your "reach", the rules are still in favor of letting BSB give your extra reach (even if indirectly).

InvisibleBison

2021-03-21, 09:37 AM

the ability gives you everything needed to let your melee weapon count as a reach weapon.

To count as a reach weapon, there needs to be some actual rules text explicitly saying that a weapon is a reach weapon. Bloodstorm Blade lacks any such text.

Moreover, there's a clear definition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#reachWeapons) of a reach weapon: "A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her." A bloodstorm blade wielding, say, a greatsword is able to attack targets that aren't adjacent to her because of her class features, not because of any properties of her weapon. Thus, even in the hands of a bloodstorm blade a greatsword isn't a reach weapon, since it doesn't satisfy the definition of reach weapon.

Blue Jay

2021-03-21, 10:54 AM

Pretty sure the text of Whirlwind Attack explicitly bans this.

The beauty of it is it doesn't. It only specifies extra attacks, and hulk smash is a single attack that applies to multiple opponents.

Yes, but Whirlwind Attack only allows one attack against each creature.

A Mighty Swing counts as an attack against each creature it affects, so you couldn't hit any of those creatures again with a later Mighty Swing.

So, it's really not doing much for you, unless there's some ability out there that relaxes the one-attack-per-creature limit on Whirlwind Attack.

Gruftzwerg

2021-03-21, 12:14 PM

To count as a reach weapon, there needs to be some actual rules text explicitly saying that a weapon is a reach weapon. Bloodstorm Blade lacks any such text.

Moreover, there's a clear definition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#reachWeapons) of a reach weapon: "A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her." A bloodstorm blade wielding, say, a greatsword is able to attack targets that aren't adjacent to her because of her class features, not because of any properties of her weapon. Thus, even in the hands of a bloodstorm blade a greatsword isn't a reach weapon, since it doesn't satisfy the definition of reach weapon.

Leaves still the argument that it is a melee attack which allows to strike enemies in a bigger reach.
I think we can agree that "hitting something with a melee weapon in melee reach" a valid English interpretation for "reach". Since "reach" ain't have a special 3.5 definition, anything that alters the distance where you can attack with a melee attack counts as within your reach.
Reach = Natural Reach + anything else that alters the distance of your melee attacks + possible reach weapon

Reach covers anything that alters your melee attacks ability to attack into distant squares. By default you can only attack into your own space. You need to add your overall reach (natural reach + anything else that affects your melee attacks ability to attack at a distance) to attack other squares. Throw Anything + Thunderous Throw extends the distance of the square where you can direct your melee attacks into.

InvisibleBison

2021-03-21, 01:02 PM

Since "reach" ain't have a special 3.5 definition

Except that it does:

Space/Reach: This line describes how much space the creature takes up on the battle grid and thereby needs to fight effectively, as well as how close it has to be to threaten an opponent.

What is the bolded text if not a definition of reach? And since a bloodstorm blade doesn't threaten someone who's 25 feet away, that person isn't in their reach and so can't be targeted should they perform a Whirlwind attack.

Elves

2021-03-21, 02:58 PM

A Mighty Swing counts as an attack against each creature it affects, so you couldn't hit any of those creatures again with a later Mighty Swing.

I don't agree -- the swing is a single "attack" action, and the feat only provides against "extra attacks". But on rereading, there's a more basic problem: the swing targets squares rather than creatures. Which sadly kills the chicken hulk for good.

Reach: [...] how close it has to be to threaten an opponent.
to expand on this here's the gloss for "Threaten":

Threaten: To be able to attack in melee without moving from your current space.

Looks like Gruftzwerg is right. Threaten only means being able to attack in melee from your current space. Bloodstorm blade build should work.

Blue Jay

2021-03-21, 03:25 PM

I don't agree -- the swing is a single "attack" action, and the feat only provides against "extra attacks".

Well, Whirlwind Attack lets you make one attack against each creature. So, the question is whether a Mighty Swing counts as an attack against each creature it hits, not whether or not it counts as an "extra attack."

But on rereading, there's a more basic problem: the swing targets squares rather than creatures. Which sadly kills the chicken hulk for good.

I don't think that's the case. Here's the relevant text:

Starting at 2nd level, a war hulk is able to make a great, sweeping swing with a melee weapon. As a full-round action, the war hulk can choose three squares adjacent to one another (he must threaten all of them). His attack applies to all creatures in those squares. Make one attack roll and apply that roll as an attack against each defender.

It targets the creatures in the squares, not the squares themselves. So when you make a Mighty Swing, you're making an attack against each creature in the chosen squares. So I think it would count as the one attack you're allowed against each creature for Whirlwind Attack, too.

But, I think Whirlwind+Mighty Swing would only rarely be more effective than a normal full attack with multiple Mighty Swings, anyway; so it's probably better to look elsewhere for practical optimization purposes.

Elves

2021-03-21, 03:35 PM

So I think it would count as the one attack you're allowed against each creature for Whirlwind Attack
One attack against each means separate attack rolls against each. Swing is one single attack that happens to "apply to" multiple targets.

It targets the creatures in the squares, not the squares themselves
As I read it, it's more like an area effect than a targeted effect:

"The war hulk can choose three squares... His attack applies to all creatures in those squares."
"The war hulk's swing affects all squares he threatens"

The reason it's not compatible with Whirlwind Attack is because you can't choose to swing against a particular creature. You affect spaces, which WA doesn't allow for.

Nifft

2021-03-21, 03:41 PM

Looks like Gruftzwerg is right. Threaten only means being able to attack in melee from your current space. Bloodstorm blade build should work.

Do you really think the glossary should overrule the combat section of the PHB?

https://i.imgur.com/4cAdG7p.png

Per the primary source, the Combat section of the PHB, you only threaten squares into which you can make melee attacks even when it's not your turn.

Bloodstorm Blade gives you (at best) melee attacks only during your turn.

InvisibleBison

2021-03-21, 03:48 PM

to expand on this here's the gloss for "Threaten":

Looks like Gruftzwerg is right. Threaten only means being able to attack in melee from your current space. Bloodstorm blade build should work.

Except that a bloodstorm blade isn't making melee attacks; they're making ranged attacks that can benefit from various things that augment melee attacks. A bloodstorm blade isn't able to "attack in melee" an opponent who's 30 feet away, so they don't threaten that opponent and can't target them with Whirlwind attack.

Nifft

2021-03-21, 03:53 PM

Except that a bloodstorm blade isn't making melee attacks; they're making ranged attacks that can benefit from various things that augment melee attacks. A bloodstorm blade isn't able to "attack in melee" an opponent who's 30 feet away, so they don't threaten that opponent and can't target them with Whirlwind attack.

What you say is probably true, but also the primary source definition (in the spoiler above) requires that you be able to make melee attacks into squares you threaten when it's not your turn, which Bloodstorm Blade cannot do.

Elves

2021-03-21, 03:59 PM

Per the primary source, the Combat section of the PHB, you only threaten squares into which you can make melee attacks even when it's not your turn.

Eats shoots and leaves. The comma makes it clear that the second clause is adjunct, not a requisite. This is confirmed by the way the same idea is expressed in the glossary:

A creature typically threatens all squares within its natural reach, even when it is not its turn to take an action.

In this case, atypically, bloodstorm blade doesn't threaten spaces outside its normal reach when it's not its turn. But that doesn't mean they don't threaten them during their turn.

Except that a bloodstorm blade isn't making melee attacks.

"As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn."

Seems pretty clear.

InvisibleBison

2021-03-21, 04:09 PM

"As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn."

Seems pretty clear.

What does it mean for a ranged attack to count as a melee attack? It means what the ability says it means, and nothing more. The ability doesn't say anything about you being able to threaten creatures within your range, so you can't.

Nifft

2021-03-21, 04:09 PM

Eats shoots and leaves. The comma makes it clear that the second clause is adjunct, not a requisite. This is confirmed by the way the same idea is expressed in the glossary:

In this case, atypically, bloodstorm blade doesn't threaten spaces outside its normal reach when it's not its turn. But that doesn't mean they don't threaten them during their turn.
That would hold more water if threatening a zone was unrelated to actions taken outside your own turn.

Threatening a zone in the core rules is entirely focused on actions outside your own turn.

"As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn."

Seems pretty clear.
It says you're making ranged attacks.

The clear thing would be that you're making ranged attacks, which a Monk can deflect, but using your melee bonuses to resolve those ranged attacks.

bean illus

2021-03-21, 04:28 PM

So, a hypothetical: say I am a Binder 3 with the Improved Binding, and I bind Paimon for Whirwlind Attack (and Dance of Death 1/5 rounds).

How would I capitalize on that? I'd like to get reach, and as many rider effects on a hit as possible.

Not concerned about additional binder levels or casting, just wanting to build entirely around Whirlwind Attack.

What are some suggestions? I know this isn't an optimal concept, but I'm wanting to explore it anyway.

Cheers - T

I haven't built any whirlwind, and few twf builds. And of course there's the question of whether you want a first through 20 build, or just a build. But ...

Planar Touchstone and Extra Slot let you add the wu jen Giant Size to your spell list. Duskblade grants full attack channel spell.
Chameleon 2 adds the spell Tree Shape.

No save, no SR.

Duskblade 13/ Binder 3/ Chameleon 2

Spiked chain or meteor hammer, ...
Uses 4 feats.

What's the diameter for a colossal 30 ft. space by 30 ft. reach with a meteor hammer? 90' plus what?

That's a lot of trees.

Elves

2021-03-21, 05:09 PM

Threatening a zone in the core rules is entirely focused on actions outside your own turn.
Is PHB page 314 (the glossary entry for it) somehow not part of Core?

It says you're making ranged attacks.
Your attacks are "treated as melee attacks", so they're eligible for any ability based off melee attacks.

Say you could "treat magic missile as an illusion spell", you could then use magic missile with an ability that let you "cast an illusion spell as a free action".

InvisibleBison

2021-03-21, 05:29 PM

Is PHB page 314 (the glossary entry for it) somehow not part of Core?

Your attacks are "treated as melee attacks", so they're eligible for any ability based off melee attacks.

Say you could "treat magic missile as an illusion spell", you could then use magic missile with an ability that let you "cast an illusion spell as a free action".

Yes, Thunderous Throw lets you use abilities meant for melee attacks with your ranged attacks, and Whirlwind Attack is such an ability. But Thunderous Throw doesn't change your reach or the area you can threaten, so (for a Medium bloodstorm blade with a non-reach weapon) you can only make thrown Whirlwind Attack attacks against targets within 5 feet of you.

Elves

2021-03-21, 05:55 PM

Yes, Thunderous Throw lets you use abilities meant for melee attacks with your ranged attacks, and Whirlwind Attack is such an ability. But Thunderous Throw doesn't change your reach or the area you can threaten.

But in fact it does:

Reach: How close [a creature] has to be to threaten an opponent. (MM6)
Threaten: To be able to attack in melee without moving from your current space. (PHB314)

Someone you can attack with (an attack that is treated as) a melee attack is threatened by you and is thus in your reach.

InvisibleBison

2021-03-21, 06:15 PM

But in fact it does:

Reach: How close [a creature] has to be to threaten an opponent. (MM6)
Threaten: To be able to attack in melee without moving from your current space. (PHB314)

Someone you can attack with (an attack that is treated as) a melee attack is threatened by you and is thus in your reach.

Thunderous Throw doesn't let you treat your ranged attacks as melee attacks for all purposes, only for the specific purposes enumerated in the ability. Being considered "in melee" with people isn't one of those purposes. Thus, Thunderous Throw doesn't let you threaten people with your ranged attacks.

Elves

2021-03-21, 07:40 PM

Being considered "in melee" with people isn't one of those purposes
"In melee" isn't a thing -- the phrase is "to be able to attack in melee", which means to be able to make a melee attack against them, an intent that's confirmed by the PHB image Nifft linked ("You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack".)

Gruftzwerg

2021-03-21, 08:51 PM

What you say is probably true, but also the primary source definition (in the spoiler above) requires that you be able to make melee attacks into squares you threaten when it's not your turn, which Bloodstorm Blade cannot do.
Lets have another look into the AoO Threatening Squares (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm) rule:

You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. The text says that you even threaten squares when it is not your turn. You still threaten squares in your turn, otherwise you wouldn't be able to pull off certain AoO stunts (e.g. Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit..).
In chase of BSB, he has different threatened squares for when it's his turn and outside of his turn (as said, without the "end of your turn" limitation BSB would be to ridiculous).

What does it mean for a ranged attack to count as a melee attack? It means what the ability says it means, and nothing more. The ability doesn't say anything about you being able to threaten creatures within your range, so you can't.
Since the ability doesn't call out any limitation for what it counts as melee attack, it counts for all purposes as such. (or do you see any limitations for the "counts as melee attack" in the ability description?)

That would hold more water if threatening a zone was unrelated to actions taken outside your own turn.

Threatening a zone in the core rules is entirely focused on actions outside your own turn.

It says you're making ranged attacks.

The clear thing would be that you're making ranged attacks, which a Monk can deflect, but using your melee bonuses to resolve those ranged attacks.
The attack is a "ranged attack" that also counts as "melee attack". It has both tags. This is true for both view perspectives. Be it from the BSB view or from the enemies view. The enemy can make use of either melee or ranged defenses against the special attacks from a BSB.

E.g. a Monk with Deflect Arrows, Karmic Strike and a reach weapon against a BSB in his reach

When the attack of the BSB hits:

1) Due to Deflect Arrow we have a RAW vs RAI situation here:

RAW
Deflect Arrow required an attack with a "ranged weapon". Throw anything doesn't give that property to the melee weapon:

You can throw a melee weapon you are proficient with as if it were a ranged weapon. The range increment of weapons used in conjunction with this feat is 10 feet.
Throw Anything only allows you to throw melee weapon as if they were ranged weapons. It doesn't allow them to count as ranged weapon for any purposes. That is not part of the ability. As such Deflect Arrows wouldn't work by RAW against the ranged attack of a BSB. (yeah, by RAW Deflect Arrow is even to stupid to deflect a throw stone/Improvised Weapon...)

RAI
I think we can assume that Deflect Arrow should work against all "ranged projectile attacks with a reasonable projectile size and weight". As such it should work against the ranged attacks of a BSB. This is how most people use "Deflect Arrows" at table play as I've seen so far.

2) If Deflect Arrows fails, the monk can still make use of his Karmic Strike ability against the same attack (since it also counts as melee attack).

InvisibleBison

2021-03-21, 09:34 PM

Since the ability doesn't call out any limitation for what it counts as melee attack, it counts for all purposes as such. (or do you see any limitations for the "counts as melee attack" in the ability description?)

It doesn't use the word "limitation", but it does go on to explain in fairly explicit detail what it means for a ranged attack to be treated as a melee attack. It's not treated as such for all purposes; it only means that bonuses that apply to melee attack rolls apply to the thrown attack roll, that you can apply 1 1/2 your Strength bonus to the damage roll if you throw with two hands, and that you can use Power Attack. It doesn't say anything about you threatening the squares into which you can attack, or about your reach changing, or about your attacks being considered melee attacks for all purposes.

In other words, the ability does what it says it does and nothing else, and it doesn't say it does what you want it to do, so it doesn't do what you want it to do.

Darg

2021-03-21, 09:42 PM

Umm, whips have reach and don't threaten. Because of that, threatening squares and reach do not define each other.

Of course, we can extrapolate meaning though:

reach weapon

A long melee weapon, or one that has a long haft. Reach weapons allow the user to threaten or strike at opponents 10 feet away with a melee attack roll. Most such weapons cannot be used to attack adjacent foes, however.

natural reach

The distance from which a creature can make a melee attack. The creature threatens all squares within that distance from its space.

Reach is simply the distance at which you can strike with a melee attack. As Bloodstorm blade makes your ranged attacks melee attacks, your range is your reach.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Deflect Arrows does indeed deflect weapons thrown with the Throw Anything feat. "As if it were" makes it so that it counts as a ranged weapon when thrown. It disqualifies it from benefiting from melee attack bonuses so the inverse must be true too.

Elves

2021-03-21, 10:17 PM

It's not treated as such for all purposes;
That's something you're reading into it.

Even if the second sentence is taken to be completely comprehensive of the benefits, they still amount to being "treated as a melee attack", which is all the definition cares about.

It doesn't say anything about [...] your attacks being considered melee attacks for all purposes.
Why would it have to say more than is necessary for it to say?

We went through a bunch of builds, a couple didn't work, this one clearly does.

Gruftzwerg

2021-03-21, 10:36 PM

It doesn't use the word "limitation", but it does go on to explain in fairly explicit detail what it means for a ranged attack to be treated as a melee attack. It's not treated as such for all purposes; it only means that bonuses that apply to melee attack rolls apply to the thrown attack roll, that you can apply 1 1/2 your Strength bonus to the damage roll if you throw with two hands, and that you can use Power Attack. It doesn't say anything about you threatening the squares into which you can attack, or about your reach changing, or about your attacks being considered melee attacks for all purposes.

In other words, the ability does what it says it does and nothing else, and it doesn't say it does what you want it to do, so it doesn't do what you want it to do.
The examples presented have no text indicators to be viewed as exclusive. It just gives you a few detailed examples of what it allows and how it works (by combining ranged attacks with melee attacks).

Umm, whips have reach and don't threaten. Because of that, threatening squares and reach do not define each other.

Of course, we can extrapolate meaning though:

Reach is simply the distance at which you can strike with a melee attack. As Bloodstorm blade makes your ranged attacks melee attacks, your range is your reach.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Deflect Arrows does indeed deflect weapons thrown with the Throw Anything feat. "As if it were" makes it so that it counts as a ranged weapon when thrown. It disqualifies it from benefiting from melee attack bonuses so the inverse must be true too.

First, I agree with your interpretation of the definition of "reach".

But..

@Whip
Whip is a "specific exception" and as such don't help us to determine what the "general rule" is here. (we could extrapolorate it, but that still not a "general rule" by 3.5 definition (Primary Source Rule).

@Deflect Arrows
The "as if it were" only allows it to count as ranged weapon for the "specific" purpose of making a ranged attack. Not for any other purpose. The permission given here is very limited. As such, it doesn't count for Deflect Arrows, which explicitly asks for a Ranged Weapon and not a Ranged Projectile Attack as mentioned. But that is the shortcoming and fault of the poor editing of Deflect Arrows. BSB ain't guilty here.

Raishoiken

2021-03-22, 12:22 AM

InvisibleBison

2021-03-22, 07:48 AM

The examples presented have no text indicators to be viewed as exclusive. It just gives you a few detailed examples of what it allows and how it works (by combining ranged attacks with melee attacks).

The examples presented also have no text indicators to be viewed as non-exclusive, though.

Also, if Thunderous Throw makes your thrown attacks count as melee attacks for all purposes, then if I throw my sword at a barbed devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#barbedDevilHamatula) who is thirty feet away from me I am somehow pierced by its barbs. This is clearly absurd, and when interpreting the rules one should avoid choosing an interpretation with absurd results.

Raishoiken

2021-03-22, 08:49 AM

The examples presented also have no text indicators to be viewed as non-exclusive, though.

Also, if Thunderous Throw makes your thrown attacks count as melee attacks for all purposes, then if I throw my sword at a barbed devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#barbedDevilHamatula) who is thirty feet away from me I am somehow pierced by its barbs. This is clearly absurd, and when interpreting the rules one should avoid choosing an interpretation with absurd results.

Did you miss the part where it says weapons with exceptional reach dont trigger this, example given being the longspear?
Dont most similar abilities have a similar clause?

Darg

2021-03-22, 09:00 AM

It's been established that you threaten the squares you can melee into, and that bloodstorm blade lets you treat those ranged attacks as melee attacks.
Seems fairly straightforward that you then threaten the squares you can throw (melee) into at that point

Might come across as weird at first though since it allows a lot of funky things to happen but it seems to be the case

Except you are making ranged attacks. Thunderous throw only allows you to treat your ranged attacks as melee attacks. As such, you don't threaten anything and you still provoke.

The examples presented also have no text indicators to be viewed as non-exclusive, though.

Also, if Thunderous Throw makes your thrown attacks count as melee attacks for all purposes, then if I throw my sword at a barbed devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#barbedDevilHamatula) who is thirty feet away from me I am somehow pierced by its barbs. This is clearly absurd, and when interpreting the rules one should avoid choosing an interpretation with absurd results.

Barbed defense specifically mentions handheld or natural weapons. It wouldn't affect a character using thunderous throw. Fire shield is the same way. Other effects mention reach weapons prevent the effect like acid sheath.

InvisibleBison

2021-03-22, 09:43 AM

Did you miss the part where it says weapons with exceptional reach dont trigger this?

A longsword doesn't have exceptional reach, though. You could say that when used by a Bloodstorm Blade it does - but that would require you to accept that the "range" bestowed on the weapon by the Throw Anything feat is the same as "reach", which is a position I have consistently rejected.

Raishoiken

2021-03-22, 10:42 AM

Except you are making ranged attacks. Thunderous throw only allows you to treat your ranged attacks as melee attacks. As such, you don't threaten anything and you still provoke.

A longsword doesn't have exceptional reach, though. You could say that when used by a Bloodstorm Blade it does - but that would require you to accept that the "range" bestowed on the weapon by the Throw Anything feat is the same as "reach", which is a position I have consistently rejected.

Idr if someone else has already bit let me lay out the whole deal:

1: bloodstorm blade explicitly has your ranged attacks turn become melee attacks

As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks...

Pretty straight forward. It then elaborates that you switch from using ranged attack roll stats to melee stats as a reminder not to use ranged modifiers. It does not say "for these purposes", merely that they are "treated as melee attacks" with no exceptions added to it

Unless you can prove they aren't actually melee attacks, even though they are explicitly treated as such, we move on

2: the phb says what it means to threaten a square:

You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it's not your turn

Since we've already determined the attacks being made are melee attacks, we're golden here. The little "not your turn" phrase after the comma is just a reminder that you do indeed still threaten squares when it isn't your turn, not that you only threaten squares that you can attack into when it isn't your turn

3: since you can make (explicit) melee attacks at a distance as a bloodstorm blade as a swift action, after that swift action you threaten a whole lot more squares now

Edit: missing the point clarifying that reach = squares you can attack into without moving but we'll get to that later. Someone else has already posted it anyhoodle

InvisibleBison

2021-03-22, 10:57 AM

Idr if someone else has already bit let me lay out the whole deal:

1: bloodstorm blade explicitly has your ranged attacks turn become melee attacks

Pretty straight forward.

This is, I think, the root of our disagreement. I don't think that the line you're quoting is definitive rules text so much as it is a summary of what the ability allows you to do. Compare a rogue's Uncanny Dodge ability, which opens by saying "Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so", and then goes on to spell out the exact mechanical effects of this heightened awareness. I don't think anyone would say that Uncanny Dodge means that a rogue can never be surprised, even though that could be justified by the first sentence of the ability. The contentious sentence from Thunderous Throw is the same sort of thing, with the rest of the ability's description being the totality of what it lets you do. And since the ability doesn't say anything about changing your reach or letting you threaten anyone who you could attack, it doesn't do those things.

Gruftzwerg

2021-03-22, 11:06 AM

Except you are making ranged attacks. Thunderous throw only allows you to treat your ranged attacks as melee attacks. As such, you don't threaten anything and you still provoke.

Barbed defense specifically mentions handheld or natural weapons. It wouldn't affect a character using thunderous throw. Fire shield is the same way. Other effects mention reach weapons prevent the effect like acid sheath.
It allows it to count as melee attack with no limitation indicated. The examples given later neither show any indicator that they are exclusive examples. You have by RAW no base to deny that Thunderous Throw count as melee attack for all purposes, since you failed to show any textual evidence that would reflect any limitation.
As such, the rules for threatened squares are in favor of BSB.

3.5 sometimes give you permissions and sometimes limitations. I don't see any limitations here. If you find any, show me.

A longsword doesn't have exceptional reach, though. You could say that when used by a Bloodstorm Blade it does - but that would require you to accept that the "range" bestowed on the weapon by the Throw Anything feat is the same as "reach", which is a position I have consistently rejected.

Longspear is the mentioned weapon.

Any creature striking a barbed devil with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d8+6 points of piercing and slashing damage from the devil’s barbs. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way.
Longspear is a reach weapon (a weapon with exceptional reach).

You interpretation (that BSB doesn't give you reach) is in conflict with the statement that "you can make a melee attack within your reach". A valid use of the word "reach" in the English language I assume (my 3rd language btw). As such, your interpretation would need a specific 3.5 definition of "reach" to prevent this otherwise valid interpretation of "reach".

Since BSB lets you make melee attacks into distant squares, it qualifies for threatened squares as already mentioned.

Darg

2021-03-22, 11:54 AM

2: the phb says what it means to threaten a square:

Since we've already determined the attacks being made are melee attacks, we're golden here. The little "not your turn" phrase after the comma is just a reminder that you do indeed still threaten squares when it isn't your turn, not that you only threaten squares that you can attack into when it isn't your turn.

The ability only lasts until the end of your turn. You wouldn't threaten anything with your range from the end of your turn until the start of your next one. Mechanically speaking, it's as if you didn't threaten those squares because no one is going to provoke during your turn unless they readied an action (chances of that going off on your turn are fairly nil). If you say you threaten while the ability is inactive, it sounds just like if you had a potion of enlarge unused but because you have the ability to attack at a farther reach at some point you threaten a reach of 10 at all times. Which is not true.

It allows it to count as melee attack with no limitation indicated. The examples given later neither show any indicator that they are exclusive examples. You have by RAW no base to deny that Thunderous Throw count as melee attack for all purposes, since you failed to show any textual evidence that would reflect any limitation.
As such, the rules for threatened squares are in favor of BSB.

3.5 sometimes give you permissions and sometimes limitations. I don't see any limitations here. If you find any, show me.

I gave an example above why you wouldn't threaten squares when it wasn't your turn.

I've got no beef about threatening squares while the ability is active.

Either way, most damage reflection abilities wouldn't work on a thunderous throw for the same reason they don't work on reach weapons or nonhandheld weapons.

Raishoiken

2021-03-22, 01:09 PM

The ability only lasts until the end of your turn. You wouldn't threaten anything with your range from the end of your turn until the start of your next one. Mechanically speaking, it's as if you didn't threaten those squares because no one is going to provoke during your turn unless they readied an action (chances of that going off on your turn are fairly nil). If you say you threaten while the ability is inactive, it sounds just like if you had a potion of enlarge unused but because you have the ability to attack at a farther reach at some point you threaten a reach of 10 at all times. Which is not true.

I gave an example above why you wouldn't threaten squares when it wasn't your turn.

I've got no beef about threatening squares while the ability is active.

Either way, most damage reflection abilities wouldn't work on a thunderous throw for the same reason they don't work on reach weapons or nonhandheld weapons.

oh yeah im not suggesting you could take advantage of the extended range for AoO's when it wasn't still your turn because like you said: it doesn't last that long. I'm full stopping at you have the extra range for threatening during your turn after the swift action, for whatever reasons it may or may not be relevant such as a war hulk's massive swing.

I suppose the way i worded my last post may have implied i thought it lasted past your own turn

Darg

2021-03-22, 03:05 PM

oh yeah im not suggesting you could take advantage of the extended range for AoO's when it wasn't still your turn because like you said: it doesn't last that long. I'm full stopping at you have the extra range for threatening during your turn after the swift action, for whatever reasons it may or may not be relevant such as a war hulk's massive swing.

I suppose the way i worded my last post may have implied i thought it lasted past your own turn

It's what I thought you said at least. Still, war hulk and war mind both have the melee weapon clause. So not all thrown weapons would work.

Hmm, I think I would make a soulknife 11/illumine soul 1/BSB 2/ kensai 1/ warmind 5. This would let you have up to 18d8 psychic strike damage on every hit (14d8 after the first round until the next time you expend your focus twice to boost psychic strike), sweeping strike damage duplication, the ability to do it at range, and a magic weapon mindblade. Mind cleave, mind strike, point blank shot, far shot, martial study, martial stance. I recommend getting TWF + gloves of the balanced hand and dual strike (will double the 18d8 to 36d8 against a single target) also if you are human. The best part is that when you use bladewind, you can activate Lucky on every attack instead of once per day. Whether that applies to your normal mindblade attacks every time you make a new one is up to the DM.

Elves

2021-03-22, 03:45 PM

This is, I think, the root of our disagreement. I don't think that the line you're quoting is definitive rules text so much as it is a summary of what the ability allows you to do. Compare a rogue's Uncanny Dodge ability, which opens by saying "Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so", and then goes on to spell out the exact mechanical effects of this heightened awareness.
I know what you mean, and it's true in some cases, but not in this one. "Treated as x" is recognizable and common mechanical language, unlike the example you quoted which is fluff text. To tell whether something is fluff text isn't a question of intent, it's a question of whether it functions as a mechanical statement. The answer is yes in this case and no in the case you quoted.

Raishoiken

2021-03-22, 06:07 PM

I know what you mean, and it's true in some cases, but not in this one. "Treated as x" is recognizable and common mechanical language, unlike the example you quoted which is fluff text. To tell whether something is fluff text isn't a question of intent, it's a question of whether it functions as a mechanical statement. The answer is yes in this case and no in the case you quoted.

you said it better than i could, and faster. This is what i was thinking but i couldn't find the words

Gruftzwerg

2021-03-22, 08:07 PM

The ability only lasts until the end of your turn. You wouldn't threaten anything with your range from the end of your turn until the start of your next one. Mechanically speaking, it's as if you didn't threaten those squares because no one is going to provoke during your turn unless they readied an action (chances of that going off on your turn are fairly nil). If you say you threaten while the ability is inactive, it sounds just like if you had a potion of enlarge unused but because you have the ability to attack at a farther reach at some point you threaten a reach of 10 at all times. Which is not true.

I gave an example above why you wouldn't threaten squares when it wasn't your turn.

I've got no beef about threatening squares while the ability is active.

Either way, most damage reflection abilities wouldn't work on a thunderous throw for the same reason they don't work on reach weapons or nonhandheld weapons.
By RAW you threaten squares also when its your turn. It's just that under normal circumstances enemies don't do anything in your turn to cause a AoO from your.
Exceptions are things like Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit. If 2 opposing combatants have either of these, they can create a loop as long they have AoO left for this round. This is a well established and discussed scenario as far as I know.
Or maybe more common, full-round spell casts. You run up to the caster and get an AoO if he didn't cast it defensively.

I know what you mean, and it's true in some cases, but not in this one. "Treated as x" is recognizable and common mechanical language, unlike the example you quoted which is fluff text. To tell whether something is fluff text isn't a question of intent, it's a question of whether it functions as a mechanical statement. The answer is yes in this case and no in the case you quoted.

Very well formulated. *cheers*

Zarvistic

2021-03-23, 12:22 PM

Thurbane

2021-03-23, 03:45 PM

The orc blademaster prc from dragon magazine is great for this. It gets whirlwind as a bonus feat and an ability that lets you whirlwind twice per round. Some other class features are pretty decent too.

I don't generally use Dragon material, but I may look into that.

Also, thank you for getting back on topic. :smallsmile:

Elves

2021-03-23, 04:44 PM

Blademaster looks interesting, 5 levels is a big ask but doubling your output is obviously good. Sadly, doesn't fit with duskblade gimmick unless you cut out the ranged part of the build (that would be duskblade 13/blademaster 5/recaster or wyrm wizard 2) but could synergize very potently with decisive strike and shadow pounce. (Note that the blademaster ability has no clause about can't use if immune to fatigue, so the save is no problem). And the prereqs for Telflammar and Blademaster overlap.

Most likely: monk 1/totemist 2/rogue 1/assassin 1/thug fighter 1/telflammar 4/blademaster 5/warblade 1/bloodstorm blade 4 (16 BAB)

Feats
F - PBS
F - EWP (bastard sword) [applies to meteor hammer/spiked chain through aptitude enhancement)
1 - Hidden Talent (dimension hop)
3 - Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest)
6 - Combat Expertise
9 - Combat Reflexes
12 - 15 - Knock Down
18 - options include Robilar's, Bonus Essentia, Steadfast Determination with frostblood orc, Elusive Attack always good
Monk 1 - IUS, Dodge
Bloodstorm 1 - Throw Anything
Bloodstorm 3 - Improved Trip
Blademaster 5 - Whirlwind Attack
Grafts: golden dancing pegleg (Mobility, Spring Attack) 50k, fiendish ear (Blind Fight) 2k
Items: horizon goggles (Far Shot) 8k

Martial Arts: Temerad Mastery I

Edit: Oh, but the swift action to use Thunderous Throw conflicts with shadow pounce. It's still a good build if you take half-minotaur, use a meteor hammer or spiked chain, are melee most of the time and only activate Thunderous Throw when needed, but that makes it a lot less elegant.