Spell points, but you have a separate pool for 6th+ level spells

[Greywander]

This isn't an issue for spell slots, as the slots are already separated by level, but the spell points variant has to introduce a new rule that limits how many spells of 6th+ level you can cast, because otherwise you'd have enough spell points to cast multiple 9th level spells before a long rest. I was curious how it might work to simply have a second pool of "super" spell points that are only used for casting 6th+ level spells instead of having an arbitrary limit on 6th+ level casting.

There's a couple different ways you could do this. Perhaps normal spell points are only used for 5th and lower level spells, and the super spell points are only used for 6th+ level spells. Or, maybe you still use spell points for 6th+ level spells, but you also have to spend some super spell points to cast those spells. There's a lot of variation we could do with regard to the size of each spell point pool, or how many super spell points you'd need for high level spells.

By not using spell points for 6th+ level spells, we can cut down on the total number of spell points, which can cut back the spam of low level spells like Shield and Absorb Element. YMMV on whether that's a good thing or not. One idea I've been playing with is that you would need to rest for a week in order to recover 6th+ level spell slots, so with spell points you'd need to rest for a week to get the super spell points, but a regular long rest would still recover all your normal spell points. Then, if you are using normal spell points for 6th+ level spells, you'd still get those back on a long rest, even though you're not getting the super spell points back. Again, YMMV on whether that's a good thing or not. It does mean that as you spend your super spell points, you'll have more normal spell points for lower level spells. Alternatively, instead of needing a week of rest for super spell points, you might simply get back a limited number each long rest, so it could take about a week to get them all back but a single long rest might get you enough for one 6th level spell, for example.

[PhantomSoul]

The Warlock also gives precedent in an official class for having neither slots nor points for spells of level 6+ (with those higher-level spells therefore not even using the same resource as lower-level spells), so you could also make them class features (maybe with the normal progression, just baked into the class as a per-rest resource. Or give a limited-use-per-day ability to create higher-level slots through your sorcery points so you generate an actual slot but can't spam those slots.

[False God]

Unless everyone is required to play with Spell Points, recovery rate should stay comparable to other classes.

While I'm personally fine with people casting all the 9th level spells their spell points provide, you could more easily just limit how many they can cast by just...limiting how many they can cast.

You could alternatively attach an exhaustion mechanic to spells of 6+, DC 10+spell level +2 per subsequent spell con check after each spell even the first. Failure denies them the ability to cast more spells of that level and/or grants them 1 level of exhaustion. That's a DC 21 con check on your first 9th level spell, assuming you pass it, then its 23, then 25. Maybe casting themselves to death will make for a really cool scene!

[MaxWilson]

This isn't an issue for spell slots, as the slots are already separated by level, but the spell points variant has to introduce a new rule that limits how many spells of 6th+ level you can cast, because otherwise you'd have enough spell points to cast multiple 9th level spells before a long rest. I was curious how it might work to simply have a second pool of "super" spell points that are only used for casting 6th+ level spells instead of having an arbitrary limit on 6th+ level casting.

The limit isn't arbitrary, or at least not specifically arbitrary for spell points--5E treats all spells of 6th+ level differently than levels 1-5, e.g. not eligible for Arcane Recovery. Having a separate pool for spell points of levels 6-9 would probably be broken, because obviously spending 39 spell points to cast three 9th level spells is better than spending 43 spell points to cast one each of a 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th-level spell, because of the power spike at 9th level. (Consider: three Meteor Swarms in a row vs. Chain Lightning + Prismatic Spray + Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting + Meteor Swarm, there's just no comparison.)

At the same time, having to keep track of separate slots is irksome. My solution: simply charge more (https://bluishcertainty.blogspot.com/2016/12/spell-points-by-formula-5e-variant-rule.html) for high-level spells. Details of how I've done it vary but the version in the linked post is typical: if you charge 54 points for a 9th level spell, then trying to cast two 9th level spells in one minute is possible but thoroughly draining (and a third one would require a short rest before you could event attempt it). Not only does that seem like a fair trade-off to me from a balance perspective but it fits fantasy fiction tropes and I like it.

But if you kept the costs the same and just separated the high-level spells into their own pool, I don't like that because it seems exploitable.

[Kylar0990]

This isn't an issue for spell slots, as the slots are already separated by level, but the spell points variant has to introduce a new rule that limits how many spells of 6th+ level you can cast, because otherwise you'd have enough spell points to cast multiple 9th level spells before a long rest. I was curious how it might work to simply have a second pool of "super" spell points that are only used for casting 6th+ level spells instead of having an arbitrary limit on 6th+ level casting.

There's a couple different ways you could do this. Perhaps normal spell points are only used for 5th and lower level spells, and the super spell points are only used for 6th+ level spells. Or, maybe you still use spell points for 6th+ level spells, but you also have to spend some super spell points to cast those spells. There's a lot of variation we could do with regard to the size of each spell point pool, or how many super spell points you'd need for high level spells.

By not using spell points for 6th+ level spells, we can cut down on the total number of spell points, which can cut back the spam of low level spells like Shield and Absorb Element. YMMV on whether that's a good thing or not. One idea I've been playing with is that you would need to rest for a week in order to recover 6th+ level spell slots, so with spell points you'd need to rest for a week to get the super spell points, but a regular long rest would still recover all your normal spell points. Then, if you are using normal spell points for 6th+ level spells, you'd still get those back on a long rest, even though you're not getting the super spell points back. Again, YMMV on whether that's a good thing or not. It does mean that as you spend your super spell points, you'll have more normal spell points for lower level spells. Alternatively, instead of needing a week of rest for super spell points, you might simply get back a limited number each long rest, so it could take about a week to get them all back but a single long rest might get you enough for one 6th level spell, for example.

The spell point variant already addresses this. From spell points you can create only 1 spell slot of each level 6th or higher per day. It actually gives you 1 less 6th and 1 less 7th level slot than just using spell slots by max level.

[MaxWilson]

The spell point variant already addresses this. From spell points you can create only 1 spell slot of each level 6th or higher per day. It actually gives you 1 less 6th and 1 less 7th level slot than just using spell slots by max level.

It's clunky though because it's not a true spell point system, it's a slot system with all the extra bookkeeping and conceptual messiness that entails.

I mean, it works, but if a player asks why they can't cast two 6th level spells instead of a 6th and a 7th, you don't have a good answer except "that's what the DMG said." And it's extra work having to keep track of the slots. Imagine if you had HP slots in addition to HP, such that you could only take a certain number of blows over 11 HP per day without dying. Yuck.

[Kylar0990]

It's clunky though because it's not a true spell point system, it's a slot system with all the extra bookkeeping and conceptual messiness that entails.

I mean, it works, but if a player asks why they can't cast two 6th level spells instead of a 6th and a 7th, you don't have a good answer except "that's what the DMG said." And it's extra work having to keep track of the slots. Imagine if you had HP slots in addition to HP, such that you could only take a certain number of blows over 11 HP per day without dying. Yuck.

It's slot you're creating to use in the spell point variant so you could cast 2 6th level spells instead of 1 6th and 1 7th.

"Spells of 6th level and higher are particularly taxing to cast. You can use spell points to create one slot of each level of 6th or higher."

You can cast the 2nd 6th level spell by creating the 7th level slot and upcasting the 6th level spell.

[MaxWilson]

It's slot you're creating to use in the spell point variant so you could cast 2 6th level spells instead of 1 6th and 1 7th.

"Spells of 6th level and higher are particularly taxing to cast. You can use spell points to create one slot of each level of 6th or higher."

You can cast the 2nd 6th level spell by creating the 7th level slot and upcasting the 6th level spell.

Yes, but why do you have to do it at 7th level? There's no good explanation.

BTW I love your username. Does the name "Doll Girl" mean anything to you?

[Kylar0990]

Yes, but why do you have to do it at 7th level? There's no good explanation.

BTW I love your username. Does the name "Doll Girl" mean anything to you?

Using spell slot instead of spell points you would still need to use up a higher level slot to cast extra 6th level spells.

You could always use spell point variant up to 5th level spells the treat 6-9 like the warlock class does with mystic arcanum. I don't know if that makes a difference.



Yes, I've read all of Brent Weeks work. The Night Angel trilogy was awesome and I enjoyed the Lightbringer series even more.

[MaxWilson]

Using spell slot instead of spell points you would still need to use up a higher level slot to cast extra 6th level spells.

Yes, but going back to an even *more* overcomplicated system (spell slots) isn't a satisfying answer.