When there are duplicate targets for scrying

[Altair_the_Vexed]

In my current Pathfinder 1st Ed game, the PCs have slipped into a mirror universe due to a transporter malfunction teleportation / extradimensional space accident. There are mirror versions of everyone - evil versions of themselves, and good versions of the BBEG, and everyone in between. Their happy Republic is instead a cruel Dictatorship, etc, etc. You know the sort of thing.

My question is how would you handle someone doing a Scrying spell or similar divination on either a party member or one of the local universe's duplicates - because now there are two people in the mirror universe who would fit the target name / description / etc?

Let's say our Paladin Orlando is mirrored by Evil Inquisitor Orlando. Someone wants to scry on the Inquisitor, so they cast the spell, targeting "Orlando"... Do they get the Inquisitor, the Paladin, or what?

I know this isn't covered by the standard rules, I'm just looking for opinions.

[Batcathat]

Doesn't scrying usually require properly identifying the target or something like that? So you can't just scry "Orlando", since there are presumably more than one person with that name even not accounting for evil duplicates.

[MoiMagnus]

The same that what happen when you target someone that has a secret twin, which, depending on GM ruling:
(1) One of them mostly at random
(2) The one that has the greatest level of "connection" with the caster [the one they passed the most time with, etc]
(3) The scrying fails because the description was not precise enough.

I think RAW is (3).

[Crake]

It would go after whoever you as the caster are focusing your intent on. If you specify "Orlando", while thinking about and focusing on your friend Orlando, the guy you've known for the past 3 years, it's gonna go on him.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Doesn't scrying usually require properly identifying the target or something like that? So you can't just scry "Orlando", since there are presumably more than one person with that name even not accounting for evil duplicates.
Ok, instead of "Orlando" assume I said "Orlando Trevellan Reginald McTruename III" - i.e. the full name to identify the guy you want. It's just that this name refers to both the mirror versions.

[Batcathat]

Ok, instead of "Orlando" assume I said "Orlando Trevellan Reginald McTruename III" - i.e. the full name to identify the guy you want. It's just that this name refers to both the mirror versions.

Right. But it's still not an adequate way of identifying your target. What if you were trying to scry for whatever the in-universe equivalent of "John Smith" is?

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Right. But it's still not an adequate way of identifying your target. What if you were trying to scry for whatever the in-universe equivalent of "John Smith" is?
I can see that I'm still not managing to get my point over: you're scrying with a large set of what you think are unique identifiers - i.e. full name + parents' full names + place and time of birth + physical description.
But the details are all shared by the mirror universe version and the original.

[Fizban]

The question lies in just how "clean" the targeting info is.

If you have heard of, met, or have some other sort of connection to one of them, then you get the one you have the connection to. If you have a connection to both but are unaware that they are different people, you get the one you are most connected to, or the one which most matches the phrasing you use to tell the DM who you're scrying on (though if the DM has to fish for specifics, this might reveal the trick)- which might mean you get the one you most recently encountered, or the one you first encountered, depending on which memory you would naturally favor as representing them. If your connection only comes through seconhand knolwedge, you get the one which is most connected to the person supplying that knowledge.

If someone who has absolutely no knowledge of this person whatsoever is given a name and told to scry it, then I would say the Scrying spell fails, because they have no connection. Name, ancestry, date of birth, etc is used for describing a soul you're trying to target for True Resurrection*, but that is not what Scrying calls for. Scrying calls for secondhand or firsthand knowledge, and mentions "what sort of physical connection (if any)" and "you must have some sort of connection." A name is not a connection on its own, it's just a name, nor is it any significant amount of secondhand knowledge: again, it's just a name.

A name with a series of titles, is at least tiny amount of seconhand knowledge, as titles relate to deeds, position within society, etc, telling you something about them other than what sounds you would make to get their attention. I would say you should need at least some titles or a physical description in addition to the name, and once those are involved, the source you got them from becomes the link for tracing which you'd pick up on Scrying.

*And even then I'd say that's only because the game needs to allow for rando NPCs to be able to res people they have no real connection or knowledge of.

[MoiMagnus]

I can see that I'm still not managing to get my point over: you're scrying with a large set of what you think are unique identifiers - i.e. full name + parents' full names + place and time of birth + physical description.
But the details are all shared by the mirror universe version and the original.

I think the point he is trying to make is that you don't need the "mirror universe" to reach this problem. If as a caster, you're stupid enough, you might think that saying the name "John Smith" is enough to uniquely identify the person you're trying to scry. And you would be wrong.

As a GM, how would you react after the following discussion:
"- I want to scry this guy we heard about, his name is John."
"- That's definitely not enough info to identify him, you would need to investigate..."
"- I try anyway, I cast scrying with just the name 'John'."

The only difference between this "John" case and your "Mirror universe" case is that the player is aware that he has imperfect information in the "John" case but proceeds anyway, but is not aware of it in the "Mirror universe" case. But from the universe/rule perceptive, the situation is mostly the same: someone is trying to scry without giving enough information to uniquely identify the target.

[Batcathat]

Yeah, pretty much that. Whatever happens normally when the scryer doesn't provide enough information to target a specific individual should apply here too.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, pretty much that. Whatever happens normally when the scryer doesn't provide enough information to target a specific individual should apply here too.

Roll the save once for each qualifying target.
If any target saves, the spell fails.
If all targets fail, then the spell targets the one who failed the save worst (including modifiers for familiarity, connection, etcetera).
If there are ties, roll randomly.

Not very nice on the caster, I know, but it's not like casters need the help.

Edit: No, this isn't RAW. RAW doesn't really address it at all.