Doubts about my PAM paladin

[eshan]

Hi to all!
I’m an old D&d player but I’m quite new of the 5th edition of the game.
I am currently playing a 5 level variant Human Vengeance Paladin.
My base stats are STR 18 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 18
At first level I took Polearm Mastery feat, at second level I chose the Great Weapon Fighting style and at fourth level ASI +2 STR (now I have STR 20)
I always go two handed and I use an haberd as main weapon
Since some months of playing have passed and my master allows me to make a little respec I have some doubts, like trading my first ASI for a feat or changing my fighting style.

1) Polearm Mastery VS generic 2-Handed weapon

First levels with polearm mastery were fun but now I see that one of the problems of the paladin class is the bonus action. Extra attack with PAM is a bonus action like many paladins spells and sometimes I run out of bonus actions and I end up not using the extra attack. Furthermore, it’s more difficult to find a magical haberd than a two-handed sword or maul during the campaign and in the end with a casual 2-H weapon the advancement of my feats/ASI would be simpler and more free :smallcool:
The combo: PAM feat - Great Weapon Master feat- Relentless Avenger - Sentinel feat is it really that good and strong?

Are there any other good alternatives to PAM for a 2-handed user?

Is it better to trade the 4th level ASI with the GWM feat or wait until 8th level?

2) PAM: 2-H weapons VS. Sword and Board

When I started to play I never considered using a one handed weapon (like a spear) and a shield. Primarily because i like roleplaying the 2h weapon user, i’m a vengeance paladin and also the damage output is important to me.

2-HANDED: In our party I am on the frontline with the barbarian and sometimes with our dwarf cleric. During the game sessions I noticed that, however, I am destined to have a low armor class (and therefore to be hit often) as well as having problems on skill checks and saving throws on constitution (and obviously also dexterity).
Halberds and glaives have reach but with PAM I can use Opportunity Attacks only when an enemy enters my reach (and later with the Sentinel feat when they disengage) but NOT when they move around me, as it did on the 3/3.5 edition. A great difference .
On the other hand, halberds and glaives are heavy weapons that give me the possibility to use the Great Weapon Master feat and boost damage.
SWORD AND BOARD: with the Dueling Fighting Style of the paladin a spear would deal 1d6+2 (3-8) vs 1d10 (1-10) damage. It's not that big of a difference. I’ll lose the Great Weapon Master (and a lot of damage) but a shield gives me a higher Armor Class and if I pick the Shield Master feat I have a great boost on dexterity saving throws versus spells and effect. Not bad.

3) The constitution save and the spell concentration

All paladins suffer from proficiency on constitution saving throws. I hope that this problem will disappear at 6th level when I get my aura of protection (I have a +4 bonus of CHA) but I am now considering taking the resilient feat or the warcaster feat (I don’t know which is better).
Is it worth it?

[heavyfuel]

PAM is pretty good for a pally. More attacks = more crits = more smites crits. GWM, on the other hand, is not so great for a pally. Less accuracy = fewer hits = fewer smites. This problem isn't so great because you can choose to smite after you've hit, but +2 Str or +2 Cha is definitely better for paladins. Plus, your Bonus Action is pretty much taken with PAM, so you don't get as much use from the cleaving effect of GWM (it only maybe increases the damage you'd've dealt from d4 to d10).

Definitely swap your Fighting Style unless the DM allows you to reroll smite damage. RAW is you don't reroll smite, only the weapon damage, in which case Defense or the one that gives you Cleric Cantrips are all better.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Hi to all!
I’m an old D&d player but I’m quite new of the 5th edition of the game.
I am currently playing a 5 level variant Human Vengeance Paladin.
My base stats are STR 18 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 18
At first level I took Polearm Mastery feat, at second level I chose the Great Weapon Fighting style and at fourth level ASI +2 STR (now I have STR 20)
I always go two handed and I use an haberd as main weapon
Since some months of playing have passed and my master allows me to make a little respec I have some doubts, like trading my first ASI for a feat or changing my fighting style.

1) Polearm Mastery VS generic 2-Handed weapon

First levels with polearm mastery were fun but now I see that one of the problems of the paladin class is the bonus action. Extra attack with PAM is a bonus action like many paladins spells and sometimes I run out of bonus actions and I end up not using the extra attack. Furthermore, it’s more difficult to find a magical haberd than a two-handed sword or maul during the campaign and in the end with a casual 2-H weapon the advancement of my feats/ASI would be simpler and more free :smallcool:
The combo: PAM feat - Great Weapon Master feat- Relentless Avenger - Sentinel feat is it really that good and strong?

Are there any other good alternatives to PAM for a 2-handed user?

Is it better to trade the 4th level ASI with the GWM feat or wait until 8th level?

2) PAM: 2-H weapons VS. Sword and Board

When I started to play I never considered using a one handed weapon (like a spear) and a shield. Primarily because i like roleplaying the 2h weapon user, i’m a vengeance paladin and also the damage output is important to me.

2-HANDED: In our party I am on the frontline with the barbarian and sometimes with our dwarf cleric. During the game sessions I noticed that, however, I am destined to have a low armor class (and therefore to be hit often) as well as having problems on skill checks and saving throws on constitution (and obviously also dexterity).
Halberds and glaives have reach but with PAM I can use Opportunity Attacks only when an enemy enters my reach (and later with the Sentinel feat when they disengage) but NOT when they move around me, as it did on the 3/3.5 edition. A great difference .
On the other hand, halberds and glaives are heavy weapons that give me the possibility to use the Great Weapon Master feat and boost damage.
SWORD AND BOARD: with the Dueling Fighting Style of the paladin a spear would deal 1d6+2 (3-8) vs 1d10 (1-10) damage. It's not that big of a difference. I’ll lose the Great Weapon Master (and a lot of damage) but a shield gives me a higher Armor Class and if I pick the Shield Master feat I have a great boost on dexterity saving throws versus spells and effect. Not bad.

3) The constitution save and the spell concentration

All paladins suffer from proficiency on constitution saving throws. I hope that this problem will disappear at 6th level when I get my aura of protection (I have a +4 bonus of CHA) but I am now considering taking the resilient feat or the warcaster feat (I don’t know which is better).
Is it worth it?

I can't tell from your post if you are aware that PAM works with spear or not, but this is an option. I'd be tempted to swap out your GWF for Defensive Fighting Style, then you can use a pole arm or spear, regardless of which shows up as a magic item. You would also have the flexibility to swap and change as conditions dictate.
Also I'd just be patient for the +4 Chr bonus; that will help a bunch.

[eshan]

PAM is pretty good for a pally. More attacks = more crits = more smites crits. GWM, on the other hand, is not so great for a pally. Less accuracy = fewer hits = fewer smites. This problem isn't so great because you can choose to smite after you've hit, but +2 Str or +2 Cha is definitely better for paladins. Plus, your Bonus Action is pretty much taken with PAM, so you don't get as much use from the cleaving effect of GWM (it only maybe increases the damage you'd've dealt from d4 to d10).

Definitely swap your Fighting Style unless the DM allows you to reroll smite damage. RAW is you don't reroll smite, only the weapon damage, in which case Defense or the one that gives you Cleric Cantrips are all better.

My DM allows me to reroll all dice included smite damage. Where I can find this fighting style with cleric cantrips?
So is better to boost my primary stats than taking the GWM feat?
What do you think of Sentinel? Is it worth it?

[eshan]

I can't tell from your post if you are aware that PAM works with spear or not, but this is an option. I'd be tempted to swap out your GWF for Defensive Fighting Style, then you can use a pole arm or spear, regardless of which shows up as a magic item. You would also have the flexibility to swap and change as conditions dictate.
Also I'd just be patient for the +4 Chr bonus; that will help a bunch.

Yes, I know that spear and quarterstaff also are working with PAM.
So, is better to wait my Aura of Protection. I'm not so far from the 6th level :smallsmile:

[Keravath]

1) Aura of protection is a main feature of a paladin and will really help your saving throws. However, depending on how long the game goes, you may want to fit in resilient con at some point for really good saves.

2) Improved divine smite at level 11 adds d8 damage to every attack you make. This works well with PAM due to the extra attack it grants.

3) Shield + staff or spear can be very effective since with the dueling fighting style it will have the same base damage as a d10 polearm - though it is only a couple of points on each attack and since your DM allows you to reroll all dice including smites using GWF you might get more mileage from that.

4) You could swap to defensive fighting style as mentioned and then feel free to use either spear/staff with a shield or a two handed one depending on what you have available.

5) GWM does add damage however the -5 to hit is a substantial penalty and the trade off doesn't help a paladin as much as many other builds since the more damage you can do with your attack the less worthwhile it is to use GWM and reduce your change to hit. Barbarians make great use of it with their reckless attack feature and archers using sharpshooter have the +2 from the archery feat both of which mitigate the -5 to hit so what might be good for those builds may be less good for your paladin.

6) There is some competition between PAM and hunter's mark if you are using it but against stronger opponents with a lot of hit points there can be quite a bit of synergy in later rounds when you are getting 3 attacks with an extra d6 on each.

7) Multiclassing into warlock at some point may be something to consider.
- 2 levels gets agonizing blast + another invocation for a good charisma based range attack
- 3 levels gives you blade pact warlock and a magical pact weapon that can be anything - add in the improved pact weapon invocation and you can get any +1 weapon you want and it doesn't matter what shows up in the game - however it does require 3 levels which is a lot of time.
- if you go hexblade, it would also give you the shield spell which can help a paladin AC when needed


However, the bottom line is - are you having fun? :) , do you like playing the character?, if so then you may not need to make many changes (however, a PAM paladin is a very effective and often seen build ... so if you are enjoying playing it then have fun :) ).

[Gale]

Using a spear, Polearm Master, and Dueling will basically net you the same amount of damage as a halberd, Polearm Master, and Great Weapon Fighter. You might have a few less chances to make opportunity attacks, but you'll easily make up for it with all the damage you'll be preventing thanks to your shield. Remember, avoiding taking damage is just as important as dealing it out.

Great Weapon Master is nice, but it does not play well with Divine Smite. Normally, missing an attack due to GWM isn't a big deal, as you'll make up for it when you finally do hit. However, Divine Smite does so much damage that it's simply not worth it to take the -5 anymore. At best you're breaking even in terms of average damage per round; at worse it can actually cause you to do less damage than if you hadn't used GWM at all. In simple terms, you shouldn't use GWM if you plan on smiting, unless you have advantage.

Shield Master is great, but the bonus action to shove enemies obviously doesn't work with the bonus action attack from Polearm Master. However, I quite like how Shield Master gives you a better dexterity saving throw, and ostensibly gives you Evasion. Keep in mind too that a +1 Shield is an Uncommon item, and is therefore much easier and cheaper to get than +1 Armor, which is Rare. With this feat you could easily have an extra +3 to DEX saves, on top of your extra +3 to AC.

Personally, I would recommend dropping the halberd for a spear and a shield. Swap out Great Weapon Fighter for Dueling if you can, and grab Shield Master instead of Great Weapon Master. GWM can increase your damage in some instances, but it's not consistent enough. You will get far greater value from the defense properties a shield can offer you. You might want to even consider knocking enemies prone occasionally rather than taking using your bonus action to attack again. It gives your allies advantage on attacks against that foe, which can often be a greater increase to your party's overall damage output than if you had simply attacked again. Shoving enemies away from your friends can also allow teammates to reposition without having to worry about an opportunity attack. Keep in mind too that an enemy making an attack while prone has disadvantage, so whether you shove them away or shove them prone you can still help a teammate reposition safely.

Honestly, I just think Shield Master is far more helpful to both you and the party as a whole than Great Weapon Master is. It both makes you a tank and a team player, which everyone loves. If you do end up taking this feat, maybe consider asking your DM if you can swap out Polearm Master for Sentinel. Polearm Master becomes a bit unnecessary if you're not using your bonus action to attack; and Sentinel gives you a new way to make opportunity attacks. Keep in mind, if you have a high AC enemies won't want to attack you, which sets up Sentinel perfectly.

[stoutstien]

My DM allows me to reroll all dice included smite damage. Where I can find this fighting style with cleric cantrips?
So is better to boost my primary stats than taking the GWM feat?
What do you think of Sentinel? Is it worth it?
Blessed warrior is in Tasha's which gives 2 cleric cantrips keying of Cha as a fighting style but If your DM is allowing smite rerolls then you are basically getting +0.75 per D8. That can add up quick.

GWM is rarely worth it for paladin and sentinel can be amazing or meh depending on your party makeup. Personally I would say +Cha is boring but the best move for paladins.

[da newt]

PAM paladins make for very strong PCs. No matter what build decisions you make, its really hard to mess it up.

If you are feeling like your build is a bit squishier than you'd like if you swap to spear/staff and shield w/ dueling FS you'll still do almost the same damage but increase your AC significantly. (If you happen to be playing AL, a staff of defense from lost mines of phandelver would be perfect for you)

The extra attacks from PAM from both the BA attack and extra OpAtt triggers synergize very well w/ Divine Smite. One drawback to PAM for a Vengeance Pali is the stress of deciding if you should use BA to HM (or other conc spells) or attack. I'd almost never use a BA to cast a smite, as Divine Smite has no action cost.

GWM is sort of a trap feat for Palis who tend to do most of their damage via Smite, so they want to hit often. But you are a Vengeance Pali, so your Vow of Enmity for ADV vs BBEG does work well w/ GWM, but I'd skip it as it will only help sometimes.

I'm a big fan of RES CON on a Pali as it makes for great saves with your aura, you have a bunch of great concentration spells, and you will be in melee mixing it up often. With your 16 CON, 18 CHA, at lvl 6 your CON save will have +10 and you'll auto succeed on all concentration checks for less than 24 damage. This makes an upcast HM much more likely to last for hours.

Shield master is a good feat, but I'd never take it if I already had PAM. Too much BA competition.

You also said you had low AC - why? You should be in Splint by now (ac 17).

[Chugger]

If you want to tank and rely on smiting for increased damage output, then keep PAM and add Sentienl.

The problem with your build and GWM is that -5. Unless you have advantage on a target, you're going to miss too often on high ac targets for GWM to be "optimized". The best GWM builds use barbarian so they can reckless and always have adv - or BM fighter for Precision - some major way to mitigate the -5 penalty to hit.

I've seen tier 2 gwm players who don't have a strategy to mitigate the -5, and they're miserable. They miss way too much, even on things that don't have super high ac - like ac 15. Which are common.

You don't get adv enough to justify GWM, unless someone else in the party casts faerie fire a lot. Or if someone had their familiar assist you every round, at least one attack every round would have advantage.

The great thing about PAM is that on nova rounds, when you need to really unload on a boss, you got 3 chances to smite.

Add a level of hexblade or sorcerer if you want better AC and more slots. I'd go sorc - you can't use the hexblade cha bonus on weapon w/ a 2 hander. But w/ sorc you get shield, and if you go more in sorc you get meta magic and more slots for smiting. And you get absorb elements. Your survivability goes sky high with spells like Shield and Absorb Elements.

There is a great sorcadin guide on this site. If you go Pal 8 for the API, going sorc after that is fine. If you want Greater Steed see if you can buy scrolls of it. You may fail a time or two, but see if you can use inspiration to try casting it - and once you get it cast the flying mount lasts til it dies or you dismiss it.

[Frogreaver]

Hi to all!
I’m an old D&d player but I’m quite new of the 5th edition of the game.
I am currently playing a 5 level variant Human Vengeance Paladin.
My base stats are STR 18 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 18
At first level I took Polearm Mastery feat, at second level I chose the Great Weapon Fighting style and at fourth level ASI +2 STR (now I have STR 20)
I always go two handed and I use an haberd as main weapon
Since some months of playing have passed and my master allows me to make a little respec I have some doubts, like trading my first ASI for a feat or changing my fighting style.

1) Polearm Mastery VS generic 2-Handed weapon

First levels with polearm mastery were fun but now I see that one of the problems of the paladin class is the bonus action. Extra attack with PAM is a bonus action like many paladins spells and sometimes I run out of bonus actions and I end up not using the extra attack. Furthermore, it’s more difficult to find a magical haberd than a two-handed sword or maul during the campaign and in the end with a casual 2-H weapon the advancement of my feats/ASI would be simpler and more free :smallcool:
The combo: PAM feat - Great Weapon Master feat- Relentless Avenger - Sentinel feat is it really that good and strong?

Are there any other good alternatives to PAM for a 2-handed user?

Is it better to trade the 4th level ASI with the GWM feat or wait until 8th level?

2) PAM: 2-H weapons VS. Sword and Board

When I started to play I never considered using a one handed weapon (like a spear) and a shield. Primarily because i like roleplaying the 2h weapon user, i’m a vengeance paladin and also the damage output is important to me.

2-HANDED: In our party I am on the frontline with the barbarian and sometimes with our dwarf cleric. During the game sessions I noticed that, however, I am destined to have a low armor class (and therefore to be hit often) as well as having problems on skill checks and saving throws on constitution (and obviously also dexterity).
Halberds and glaives have reach but with PAM I can use Opportunity Attacks only when an enemy enters my reach (and later with the Sentinel feat when they disengage) but NOT when they move around me, as it did on the 3/3.5 edition. A great difference .
On the other hand, halberds and glaives are heavy weapons that give me the possibility to use the Great Weapon Master feat and boost damage.
SWORD AND BOARD: with the Dueling Fighting Style of the paladin a spear would deal 1d6+2 (3-8) vs 1d10 (1-10) damage. It's not that big of a difference. I’ll lose the Great Weapon Master (and a lot of damage) but a shield gives me a higher Armor Class and if I pick the Shield Master feat I have a great boost on dexterity saving throws versus spells and effect. Not bad.

3) The constitution save and the spell concentration

All paladins suffer from proficiency on constitution saving throws. I hope that this problem will disappear at 6th level when I get my aura of protection (I have a +4 bonus of CHA) but I am now considering taking the resilient feat or the warcaster feat (I don’t know which is better).
Is it worth it?

My normal Paladin Recommendations:
1. Use a spear and shield with PAM (not Shield Master) - gives you +2 AC over your current state while still making 3 attacks
2. Use most of your spell slots to smite (or for out of combat utility) - no need to worry about concentration
3. Drop GWM
4. Use the Duelist fighting style

Now specifically for your setup:
1. Replace GWM with a half feat and then at level 4 take another half feat for the same stat. The Skilled feat which can give you +1 str and athletics proficiency. Depending on the situation you can use your first attack to attempt to knock an enemy prone, which would grant you and melee allies advantage on it. The Piercer feat or Heavy Armor Master would be other great options.

[Witty Username]

What bonus action spells are you using?

[Eldariel]

Full attack and then move 5' back. This forces enemy to provoke if they want to get to you. With a polearm they can't hit you when you do it (unless they also have a similar range) meaning a free hit. This is the primary advantage of polearms; hit + bonus hit, walk back and reaction hit.

Usually you mostly wanna use slots on Divine Smite; most of the bonus action Pally spells are kinda meh. Generally you wanna concentrate on e.g. Bless and just hit things or just plain hit things. The bonus action Smite spells are quite weak compared to divine smite; lower damage, action cost, concentration cost, etc.

And yeah, Great Weapon style sucks: take Defense if you can't think of anything else (such as Blind Fighting comboes). It's basically never worth it and a hassle to boot.

[Dork_Forge]

Hi to all!
I’m an old D&d player but I’m quite new of the 5th edition of the game.
I am currently playing a 5 level variant Human Vengeance Paladin.
My base stats are STR 18 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 18
At first level I took Polearm Mastery feat, at second level I chose the Great Weapon Fighting style and at fourth level ASI +2 STR (now I have STR 20)
I always go two handed and I use an haberd as main weapon
Since some months of playing have passed and my master allows me to make a little respec I have some doubts, like trading my first ASI for a feat or changing my fighting style.

1) Polearm Mastery VS generic 2-Handed weapon

First levels with polearm mastery were fun but now I see that one of the problems of the paladin class is the bonus action. Extra attack with PAM is a bonus action like many paladins spells and sometimes I run out of bonus actions and I end up not using the extra attack. Furthermore, it’s more difficult to find a magical haberd than a two-handed sword or maul during the campaign and in the end with a casual 2-H weapon the advancement of my feats/ASI would be simpler and more free :smallcool:
The combo: PAM feat - Great Weapon Master feat- Relentless Avenger - Sentinel feat is it really that good and strong?

Are there any other good alternatives to PAM for a 2-handed user?

Is it better to trade the 4th level ASI with the GWM feat or wait until 8th level?

Here I'd keep PAM, even if you don't get the bonus attack every turn it's a nice option to have and you can still benefit from the second point.

Personally not a fan of GWM and don't think the Paladin needs it.


2) PAM: 2-H weapons VS. Sword and Board

When I started to play I never considered using a one handed weapon (like a spear) and a shield. Primarily because i like roleplaying the 2h weapon user, i’m a vengeance paladin and also the damage output is important to me.

2-HANDED: In our party I am on the frontline with the barbarian and sometimes with our dwarf cleric. During the game sessions I noticed that, however, I am destined to have a low armor class (and therefore to be hit often) as well as having problems on skill checks and saving throws on constitution (and obviously also dexterity).
Halberds and glaives have reach but with PAM I can use Opportunity Attacks only when an enemy enters my reach (and later with the Sentinel feat when they disengage) but NOT when they move around me, as it did on the 3/3.5 edition. A great difference .
On the other hand, halberds and glaives are heavy weapons that give me the possibility to use the Great Weapon Master feat and boost damage.
SWORD AND BOARD: with the Dueling Fighting Style of the paladin a spear would deal 1d6+2 (3-8) vs 1d10 (1-10) damage. It's not that big of a difference. I’ll lose the Great Weapon Master (and a lot of damage) but a shield gives me a higher Armor Class and if I pick the Shield Master feat I have a great boost on dexterity saving throws versus spells and effect. Not bad.

If you're going Sword and Board, personally I'd go for a d8 weapon and swap out PAM, besides feeling really gamey there's other feats you could benefit from. It'll make your options of found loot broader to boot.


3) The constitution save and the spell concentration

All paladins suffer from proficiency on constitution saving throws. I hope that this problem will disappear at 6th level when I get my aura of protection (I have a +4 bonus of CHA) but I am now considering taking the resilient feat or the warcaster feat (I don’t know which is better).
Is it worth it?

With a +3 Con I'd say skip Res, you don't need it for a good save especially since you have a +4 bump on the horizon.


Full attack and then move 5' back. This forces enemy to provoke if they want to get to you. With a polearm they can't hit you when you do it (unless they also have a similar range) meaning a free hit. This is the primary advantage of polearms; hit + bonus hit, walk back and reaction hit.


Is this assuming the initial attack is made at 10ft?

[Valmark]

Imo Great Weapon Fighting works well with 2d6 weapons- you tend to apply it quite often in that case. Using a polearm though unless it's a magical polearm with bonus damage dice you're probably better off without it.

If your DM let's you reroll damage dice from DS or IDS that's substantially better.

Regarding saves, I don't think you should worry. You've got all around decent saves and when you get to level 6 they'll all be good.

Is this an adventure module? Because magical polearms are only harder to find then magical swords if the DM is using a pre-written campaign (and even then I'm not sure how hard it is to just change the specific weapon).

Full attack and then move 5' back. This forces enemy to provoke if they want to get to you. With a polearm they can't hit you when you do it (unless they also have a similar range) meaning a free hit. This is the primary advantage of polearms; hit + bonus hit, walk back and reaction hit.

Usually you mostly wanna use slots on Divine Smite; most of the bonus action Pally spells are kinda meh. Generally you wanna concentrate on e.g. Bless and just hit things or just plain hit things. The bonus action Smite spells are quite weak compared to divine smite; lower damage, action cost, concentration cost, etc.

This. Paladin bonus action spells are either one-time Concentration spells which you cast and keep running or are too weak to be better then using the slot to smite until you get to the higher leveled ones. Some of them are even weaker then just using a third attack that uses a d4 for the damage die.

And even then those are still one-time Concentration spells, so they shouldn't eat up more then one turn. Unless you're spamming them in which case you should be running out of slots anyway.

[stoutstien]

Wrathful smite is a pretty solid bonus action spell option as long as fear immunity isn't an issue. it's basically a death sentence if they don't have LA or break your concentration.

[Eldariel]

Wrathful smite is a pretty solid bonus action spell option as long as fear immunity isn't an issue. it's basically a death sentence if they don't have LA or break your concentration.

Well, it's a single target save-or-lose costing you Concentration and having a rider of your attacks. It's not bad; about Dissonant Whispers. But it costs you your Concentration which sucks unless you skip on Bless & al.

[Frogreaver]

Well, it's a single target save-or-lose costing you Concentration and having a rider of your attacks. It's not bad; about Dissonant Whispers. But it costs you your Concentration which sucks unless you skip on Bless & al.

On a simple sword and board paladin wrathful smite is one of his best abilities. Far better than nearly any level 1 smite he can do. Even on par or better than bless in many situations.

However, when you already have a use for that bonus action from PAM the opportunity cost increases drastically.

[LudicSavant]

If you want to tank and rely on smiting for increased damage output, then keep PAM and add Sentienl.

The problem with your build and GWM is that -5. Unless you have advantage on a target, you're going to miss too often on high ac targets for GWM to be "optimized". The best GWM builds use barbarian so they can reckless and always have adv - or BM fighter for Precision - some major way to mitigate the -5 penalty to hit.

I've seen tier 2 gwm players who don't have a strategy to mitigate the -5, and they're miserable. They miss way too much, even on things that don't have super high ac - like ac 15. Which are common.

You don't get adv enough to justify GWM, unless someone else in the party casts faerie fire a lot. Or if someone had their familiar assist you every round, at least one attack every round would have advantage.

The great thing about PAM is that on nova rounds, when you need to really unload on a boss, you got 3 chances to smite.

Add a level of hexblade or sorcerer if you want better AC and more slots. I'd go sorc - you can't use the hexblade cha bonus on weapon w/ a 2 hander. But w/ sorc you get shield, and if you go more in sorc you get meta magic and more slots for smiting. And you get absorb elements. Your survivability goes sky high with spells like Shield and Absorb Elements.

There is a great sorcadin guide on this site. If you go Pal 8 for the API, going sorc after that is fine. If you want Greater Steed see if you can buy scrolls of it. You may fail a time or two, but see if you can use inspiration to try casting it - and once you get it cast the flying mount lasts til it dies or you dismiss it.

Yeah, far too many people don’t do the math (or do it incorrectly, failing to account for all the variables) and overestimate GWM.

You can calculate exactly how well various feats will do for you in the DPR calculator in my sig, but for general rules of thumb:

-GWM is great if you have a high number of very accurate, low damage attacks. Also if you have a high critrate and aren’t doing a ton with your bonus actions.

-GWM is not great if you have a small number of high damage attacks. If the damage-per-attack is high enough (like with IDS, smites, magic weapons, and / or spell buffs) GWM can lower your average damage even with advantage!

-remember that GWM is at the opportunity cost of another ASI. So compared to a stat bump it’s basically -6/+9.

The reason it works this way is that the amount “risked” by the -5 is greater the higher your damage-per-hit is, while the percentage damage gained by the +10 is smaller the higher your damage-per-hit is.

End result is that it’s a fairly situational pick for Paladins, who have a lot of ways to gain a high damage-per-hit.

[eshan]

Thanks everyone for answering me!

You were able to clarify my doubts (almost completely)!

Although there are many good options I have never considered multiclassing. For roleplaying and background I like to be a “classic” full paladin :smallsmile:

For now I’ll wait level 6 for my Aura of Protection :smallcool:

Definitely I’ll drop the GWM feat and also the Great Weapon Fighting style

We are 5 in the party: me, a cleric, a wizard, a ranged rogue and a barbarian and sometimes I compete with the barbarian with melee damage but he does better than me and is able to take damage a little better than me.
I think that I’ll go on with PAM but I really don’t know if I want to continue with the 2-handed.. The damage of the spear\staff+shield with Dueling Fighting style it’s quite the same and the only interesting thing is the increased reach of the halberd\glaive but I don’t know if it's worth it.
In the end I think I’ll go “sword and board”, also I would like to be different from the other players of my party and the idea of the paladin in full armor and the shield is quite interesting.

Last questions:
1)To take or not Shield Master feat (unfortunately our DM doesn't use half-feat)
Personally I like this feat. I think that the possibility to shove an enemy would be very situational for my character (bonus action used for PAM or spells) but the boost of dexterity is really great and covers a lot the hole in the paladin defence. Despite this, is it possible that the Aura of protection is already enough?

Personally I would say +Cha is boring but the best move for paladins.
And like stoutstien said, in the end for a paladin the best move is an ASI in Charisma? Maybe yes

2) Sentinel Feat + Relentless Avenger combo
Without the expanded reach of halberd\glaive this combo is still good with the spear+shield build? Do I have to take this feat at 8° level? Later? Do I have to drop it?

3) Spear Mastery (from UA)
It can be interesting?
Too many options for bonus actions and I don’t know if the die changes from a d6 to a d8 it’s compatible with the Dueling Style..

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Thanks everyone for answering me!

You were able to clarify my doubts (almost completely)!

Although there are many good options I have never considered multiclassing. For roleplaying and background I like to be a “classic” full paladin :smallsmile:

For now I’ll wait level 6 for my Aura of Protection :smallcool:

Definitely I’ll drop the GWM feat and also the Great Weapon Fighting style

We are 5 in the party: me, a cleric, a wizard, a ranged rogue and a barbarian and sometimes I compete with the barbarian with melee damage but he does better than me and is able to take damage a little better than me.
I think that I’ll go on with PAM but I really don’t know if I want to continue with the 2-handed.. The damage of the spear\staff+shield with Dueling Fighting style it’s quite the same and the only interesting thing is the increased reach of the halberd\glaive but I don’t know if it's worth it.
In the end I think I’ll go “sword and board”, also I would like to be different from the other players of my party and the idea of the paladin in full armor and the shield is quite interesting.

Last questions:
1)To take or not Shield Master feat (unfortunately our DM doesn't use half-feat)
Personally I like this feat. I think that the possibility to shove an enemy would be very situational for my character (bonus action used for PAM or spells) but the boost of dexterity is really great and covers a lot the hole in the paladin defence. Despite this, is it possible that the Aura of protection is already enough?

And like stoutstien said, in the end for a paladin the best move is an ASI in Charisma? Maybe yes

2) Sentinel Feat + Relentless Avenger combo
Without the expanded reach of halberd\glaive this combo is still good with the spear+shield build? Do I have to take this feat at 8° level? Later? Do I have to drop it?

3) Spear Mastery (from UA)
It can be interesting?
Too many options for bonus actions and I don’t know if the die changes from a d6 to a d8 it’s compatible with the Dueling Style..

Shield Master can be good depending on DM ruling on when you can shove, but I can't see taking it if you are keeping PAM; you just aren't using the main part of it often enough. It's hard to argue against bumping Charisma; you will be saving you and your Barbarian buddy so many issues. Sentinel is definitely not as good without a reach weapon. I'm thinking with your rolls you have a 'good' problem to have in the sense that Paladins with point buy generally are kind of MAD and often just get 1 feat until very high levels. I think this is the reason a lot of people on the thread like PAM for Paladins as it offers a lot of versatility (bonus action, reaction as well as multiple fighting styles).

[Eldariel]

Thanks everyone for answering me!

You were able to clarify my doubts (almost completely)!

Although there are many good options I have never considered multiclassing. For roleplaying and background I like to be a “classic” full paladin :smallsmile:

For now I’ll wait level 6 for my Aura of Protection :smallcool:

Definitely I’ll drop the GWM feat and also the Great Weapon Fighting style

We are 5 in the party: me, a cleric, a wizard, a ranged rogue and a barbarian and sometimes I compete with the barbarian with melee damage but he does better than me and is able to take damage a little better than me.
I think that I’ll go on with PAM but I really don’t know if I want to continue with the 2-handed.. The damage of the spear\staff+shield with Dueling Fighting style it’s quite the same and the only interesting thing is the increased reach of the halberd\glaive but I don’t know if it's worth it.
In the end I think I’ll go “sword and board”, also I would like to be different from the other players of my party and the idea of the paladin in full armor and the shield is quite interesting.

Last questions:
1)To take or not Shield Master feat (unfortunately our DM doesn't use half-feat)
Personally I like this feat. I think that the possibility to shove an enemy would be very situational for my character (bonus action used for PAM or spells) but the boost of dexterity is really great and covers a lot the hole in the paladin defence. Despite this, is it possible that the Aura of protection is already enough?

And like stoutstien said, in the end for a paladin the best move is an ASI in Charisma? Maybe yes

2) Sentinel Feat + Relentless Avenger combo
Without the expanded reach of halberd\glaive this combo is still good with the spear+shield build? Do I have to take this feat at 8° level? Later? Do I have to drop it?

3) Spear Mastery (from UA)
It can be interesting?
Too many options for bonus actions and I don’t know if the die changes from a d6 to a d8 it’s compatible with the Dueling Style..

You have PAM; as per Tasha's you should be able to switch Fighting Styles so you can easily go back to Reach when you hit 7 for Relentless Avenger. So that door remains open, try both and see how you like it.


Yeah, far too many people don’t do the math (or do it incorrectly, failing to account for all the variables) and overestimate GWM.

You can calculate exactly how well various feats will do for you in the DPR calculator in my sig, but for general rules of thumb:

-GWM is great if you have a high number of very accurate, low damage attacks. Also if you have a high critrate and aren’t doing a ton with your bonus actions.

-GWM is not great if you have a small number of high damage attacks. If the damage-per-attack is high enough (like with IDS, smites, magic weapons, and / or spell buffs) GWM can lower your average damage even with advantage!

-remember that GWM is at the opportunity cost of another ASI. So compared to a stat bump it’s basically -6/+9.

The reason it works this way is that the amount “risked” by the -5 is greater the higher your damage-per-hit is, while the percentage damage gained by the +10 is smaller the higher your damage-per-hit is.

End result is that it’s a fairly situational pick for Paladins, who have a lot of ways to gain a high damage-per-hit.

@OP: It's worth remembering though that while this is all true, Pallies don't that often want to Smite all that many times per turn (for resource conservation) and thus as long as they land a single hit, they get to at least land that one Smite. So essentially you can kinda treat Smite (outside turns where you really just must nova something down ASAP) as a Sneak Attack-like ability where you get extra damage if you hit X times where X is the number you wanna Smite. So while there's competition, it does kinda work and given a good source of Advantage, GWM Pally can work (as you said). It helps that Pally also has Bless and is well-inclined to use it; that ability goes great with GWM.

In short, GWM isn't bad - as Ludic said, it's situational. But if you plan on using Bless anyways and if you/party have a decent way of generating Advantage and if you don't have the need/opportunity to nova superhard that often, it can be well worth it. GWM/PAM/Blind-Fighting-or-Devil's Sight/Darkness Pally with Sentinel can be a menace, but better yet if there's e.g. someone pushing enemies prone for you to unload on them.

[Kurt Kurageous]

My DM allows me to reroll all dice included smite damage. Where I can find this fighting style with cleric cantrips?
So is better to boost my primary stats than taking the GWM feat?
What do you think of Sentinel? Is it worth it?

Welcome back. I'm from AD&D.

If I had advised you when you built, I would have said defense is the only really worthwhile choice in fighting styles for a pally. Read the optimization threads on Pallys.

Your VH move is good, but I would have also told you that PAM + sentinel is awesome. Run up to a foe, gain a reaction attack, a bonus attack, and a regular attack. Be part of a line and get a reaction when a foe targets a friend next to you. Foe wants to disengage? Foe want get within 5' of you?!!? NOT SO FAST... when you hit with sentinel speed = 0. Back up 5' and repeat. If they have no range or reach, you can kite as long as you keep hitting.

GWM is best against low AC foes, and you already have a use for your bonus action, so GWM slay for extra attack is not too awesome. So nope to both GWM and your heavy style. Defense. Sentinel.

Pallys aren't using many spells with concentration, so I'm not sure why you think it's an issue. If its a non combat kinda day, sure, cast a few, otherwise save for smite.