Which class should i take to optimize these rolls?

[Jacco]

Hi guys,for a new campaign mainly set in dungeons, I'm creating a character. First I rolled the dice, here's the result: 15-13-12-11-11-8. Worst ever :smallmad:, no chance of being able to change or improve them.What class could i take to try and optimize everything? we are a party of three with a sorlock and maybe a thief, we start from level 1 and we should get to level 8. All books available.

I'm thinking a cleric? Maybe a druid? I'd like to take a barbarian but with these rolls better to avoid it...

Thanks!!

[Amnestic]

I mean, those are fine. Slightly below average (24 point buy) but they're not terrible by any stretch. You still start with a +3 mod in your mainstat after racial modifiers.

16/17 mainstat
14 secondary
12 tertiary
11/11/8 for 'dumpstats'.

Pretty much anything that's not a monk or a paladin works 100% fine, and even they're only slightly more iffy than usual.

[Eldariel]

Cleric and Druid are both indeed great. More broadly, any full caster works though e.g. Bard and Wizard might want Moderately Armored. 16 in casting stat, 14 in Con and rest in Dex + whatever. Moon Druid is of course the ultimate "stats don't matter"-build, but any will work. Dwarf Hill Cleric (any domain with heavy armor prof) is also particularly solid.

For low level power, Druid (particularly Moon) is pretty hard to beat, would give the party both the divine caster and the frontliner you want. And for Goodberries for the offturn healing. Forge Cleric would also be great and Shepherd would be nice especially down the line (on 5); temp HP for everyone is great. Vuman/CL Bard (e.g. Lore) with Moderately Armored as the bonus feat is solid as well, though likely to overshadow the Rogue so I'd probably lean another way.

[Jacco]

thanks for the tips. I'd like to try twilight cleric, good armor and utilities.How could I build him ? Alternatively an artificier?

[Unoriginal]

Hi guys,for a new campaign mainly set in dungeons, I'm creating a character. First I rolled the dice, here's the result: 15-13-12-11-11-8. Worst ever :smallmad:, no chance of being able to change or improve them.What class could i take to try and optimize everything? we are a party of three with a sorlock and maybe a thief, we start from level 1 and we should get to level 8. All books available.

I'm thinking a cleric? Maybe a druid? I'd like to take a barbarian but with these rolls better to avoid it...

Thanks!!

That statline is pretty good for normal human. 16-14-13-12-12-9 can work for a Barbarian.

Alternatively, Variant Human with an half-feat (Tavern Brawler, Slasher or Crusher for example) for 16-14-12-12-11-8.

Otherwise you could easily go Fighter with any race and be more than fine. Githyanki Rune Knight or Psi Warrior (although this one may have too low a CON for your tastes), for example.

[da newt]

If you wanted to you could build a PC:

With Tasha's Custom Lineage for a +2 to main stat, and 1/2 feat +1 to main stat to start w/ 18-13-12-11-11-8.

Or Triton for 3 +1s to get you 16-14-12-12-11-8.

Or Half Elf for 16-14-14-11-11-8.

Or V human for 16-14-12-11-11-8 and a feat.


Personally I'd pick my class/subclass role in the party first, then look at how to build the most effective one of those with this stat array and races.

[Jacco]

That statline is pretty good for normal human. 16-14-13-12-12-9 can work for a Barbarian.

Alternatively, Variant Human with an half-feat (Tavern Brawler, Slasher or Crusher for example) for 16-14-12-12-11-8.

Don't you need to have des, str and cost high? With these scores, wouldn't I have too little armor?

[Unoriginal]

Don't you need to have des, str and cost high? With these scores, wouldn't I have too little armor?

Barbarians can wear medium armor (and even use shields) and have huge hit dice (plus Rage), they don't *need* incredible DEX and CON.


It's pleasant to have incredible DEX and CON, don't get me wrong, but it's not needed.


EDIT: Plus while high AC augments the Barbarian's durability, being a Barbarian is much more about getting hit and still going than avoiding getting hit.

[Jacco]

Barbarians can wear medium armor (and even use shields) and have huge hit dice (plus Rage), they don't *need* incredible DEX and CON.


It's pleasant to have incredible DEX and CON, don't get me wrong, but it's not needed.


EDIT: Plus while high AC augments the Barbarian's durability, being a Barbarian is much more about getting hit and still going than avoiding getting hit.

that's true, maybe i should reconsider a barbarian. Dex barbarian could make sense? pro vs con?

[Eldariel]

that's true, maybe i should reconsider a barbarian. Dex barbarian could make sense? pro vs con?

Eh. It'd be a pretty subpar Barbarian but it'd still be okay. It would hurt much more than most alternatives though. Definitely Str Barbarian to make use of those Rage bonus damage options and Athletics checks. Just go 16/13/14 and pick a feat to make that Dex or Con 14. Overall, this party is much more in need for support magic (especially a versatile full list caster) than it is just a damage sponge though. Nobody in the party can yoyo heal, which is huge for keeping the party running, and nobody probably has much CC either; Cleric provides both. So for the party, Cleric is just way, way better.


thanks for the tips. I'd like to try twilight cleric, good armor and utilities.How could I build him ? Alternatively an artificier?

Twilight Cleric is pretty great for this. I'd just go Hill Dwarf; losing that 5' movement instead of normal 10 and not needing to worry about Str or Dex. Helps you with your durability too. You can start with 15 Con, 16 Wis and then take Res: Con on 4 for 16 Con, 16 Wis and then just upgrade your Wisdom.

Twilight Cleric is one of those classes where you basically never wanna multiclass. You want to keep improving your Channel Divinity and getting more of it. And all the abilities provided by the subclass are good. There isn't really much to say about it; eventually grab War Caster and pick Toll the Dead and another damage cantrip and prepare the usual suspects:
- Bless
- Healing Word
- Command
- Silence
- Aid
- [Warding Bond] (maybe depending on how your teammates play; it's good if you have two frontliners and you're the tankier of the two)
- Spiritual Weapon
- Spirit Guardians

And go from there. Don't forget rituals (Detect Magic is a big one) and that you have to prepare them to cast 'em.


The other option is going Variant Human, eating up the movement restriction on heavy armor, going 14 Con/16 Wis and starting with War Caster. Or Custom Lineage and taking Res: Con instead for 14/17. All 3 are fine but Hill Dwarf probably has the most robust set of bonuses though missing out on Warcaster is a bit meh (since getting spell AoOs is really nice when spells are your only real way of combat).

[CTurbo]

Mountain Dwarf Barbarian starting 17 Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 11 Wis, 11 Cha

Wear medium armor and bump +1 Str and Dex at level 4. You won't be able to have any fancy offensive feats like GWM until level 8 but this would be a solid build.

[Dalinar]

As Unoriginal pointed out: you have four odd stats, meaning a typical race with +2/+1 ASI will get you +2 in ability score modifiers while regular human, which is usually not a great option, would get you +4 in ability score modifiers. Therefore I wouldn't outright ignore a MAD build, so you can take advantage of that, even if you'll be a little less effective than a point buy character (which you will be no matter what since you rolled under point buy anyway). You won't get some of the cool racials in the game, but that's OK.

16-14-13-12-12-9, then. Heavy armor isn't completely off the table--the best you can do in that category without taking the penalty is chain mail for base 16 AC, unless you stick your 16 in STR which pigeonholes you quite a bit more than your 13. If you put your 16 or 14 in DEX and go medium armor, you'll exceed that once you hit half-plate--unless you go a stealth build, which would get disadvantage with half-plate.

If you go 16 WIS, 14 CON, 13 STR, 12 DEX, 12 CHA, 9 INT, you could make a fairly decent cleric IMO. You expressed interest in trying Twilight, which grants heavy armor proficiency, so you can go 16 WIS, 14 CON/DEX (DEX if you expect stealth missions so you can switch to breastplate or a chain shirt and not take as big an AC penalty for it; CON otherwise), 13 STR, 12 DEX/CON, 12 INT (because your sorlock has the face thing covered), 9 CHA.

You can wield a shield for 18 AC while casting or swinging a weapon in your other hand (is there a good way to attack with your WIS score here? I only know of Shillelagh and that's a Druid thing), have a +1 or better in every skill except the CHA-based ones, and have a +1 or +2 in CON (I'd grab War Caster or Resilient (CON) at 4 to shore your concentration up a little). You give everyone in the party darkvision, so that's never a problem, and even if you take a low DEX score you can still give yourself advantage on initiative rolls at least.

There's also the obvious Moon Druid option to just ignore all this and be a bear or whatever when combat comes up.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Barbarian needs to use Str on attacks to use reckless attack, which is one of the two primary reasons to go Barbarian over Fighter.

I'd go Hill Dwarf to ignore the Str requirement of heavy armors, Twilight Cleric with Str 12, Dex 11, Con 13+2, Int 8, Wis 15+1, Cha 11, and take Resilient: Con. Or use the Tasha's racial stat swap and make that Con 13+1, Wis 15+2, and take Telekinetic (Wis). I'd honestly prefer that because Warcaster is better for you than Res: Con and you don't really need both, and Telekinetic can get a soft ally out of melee so they don't need to spend an action to disengage. You'll be primarily using spells and cantrips, rather than weapon attacks, but Nature instead of Twilight can get Shillelagh if you want to go melee with those stats.

[strangebloke]

Hi guys,for a new campaign mainly set in dungeons, I'm creating a character. First I rolled the dice, here's the result: 15-13-12-11-11-8. Worst ever :smallmad:, no chance of being able to change or improve them.What class could i take to try and optimize everything? we are a party of three with a sorlock and maybe a thief, we start from level 1 and we should get to level 8. All books available.

I'm thinking a cleric? Maybe a druid? I'd like to take a barbarian but with these rolls better to avoid it...

Thanks!!

Basically anything works. Those odd stats are awkward but something like triton or human or half-elf or vhuman with a half-feat can give you something like 16-14-12-12-11-8. That's pretty solid for most classes that aren't paladin or monk (and even then you can make it work.)

Some builds like Moon Druid or Cleric or Necromancer wizard don't require stats at all, but most of the simple concepts (like a DEX-focused rogue or a STR focused fighter or an INT-focused Wizard) will work absolutely fine. Getting 18 or more at level 1 is really difficult and you honestly won't notice that you have 1 lower AC or a few fewer HP most of the time.

For some spicier concepts:


Vhuman Swashbuckler Rogue with STR 16, DEX 14, and CON 12. Take 'Moderately armored' at first level with a shield to have an AC of 19. Then grab expertise in athletics and shield master at fourth to knock people prone before you stab them (the wording is ambiguous as to whether this works or not so ask your DM.)
Human Bugbear Ranger with STR 17, DEX 14, and CON 12. You use horde breaker with your polearm and 'long limbs' to consistently get three attacks a round while using a melee weapon. (Alternately, dump STR, go high DEX and Gloomstalker to get crazy ambush damage as a sniper.)
Half-Elf Conquest Paladin with STR 16, CON 14, and CHA 14. You're stats work just fine for this!
Hobgoblin Wizard with INT 16, DEX 13, CON 14. Take Moderately Armored at 4th level to bring your AC up to 19 (very high for a wizard) while having decent HP.

[nickl_2000]

thanks for the tips. I'd like to try twilight cleric, good armor and utilities.How could I build him ? Alternatively an artificier?

Go for a Hill Dwarf, put the stat bumps into Wisdom and Constitution. You only need strength if your table worries about encumbrance. With Tasha's you can trade in weapon proficiency for tools and the level 8 damage boost can be used for cantrips or weapons. Take sacred flame, Guidance, and something else you like and you are golden. You can tank, you can support, you can heal, your teammates will love you for it.

[Jacco]

Thanks for all these tips, really :)


As I looked through the manuals I thought of a particular (funny?) build:
dwarf with the mark from eberron (which gives me the armor of agathys spell)
1 liv of cleric (life? forge? twilight? nature?) for heavy armor prof, cantrip and spell.
x levels of wizard (abjuration)

The concept is to be able to stay in melee by absorbing damage and doing damage with agathys, cantrips and spell. Alternatively, if I got the cleric of nature I can use booming blade +Shillelagh
It might work? Which cleric domain should I take?

life: great spell knows and +2 to my healing spells
twilight :great spell knows and advantage for the initiative roll
forge : +1 to AC or +1 to hit and damage roll
nature: Shillelagh

[Droppeddead]

To be perfectly honest, I'd ask the DM if I could just use the standard point array. If you can't, this is what I'd do:

Variant human and pick the Skill Expert feat at level one. That gives you 16-14-12-12-11-8 which isn't too bad. You also get expertise and another skill which makes up for lower stats. Then I would go for artificer (because it's SAD), either Armourer or Battle Smith to make you less reliable on strength for good armour/protection. You also get guidance which is great for ability checks.

You will get two feats/ASIs which I woulkd use to boost Intelligence to 18 (plenty enough for level 8) and then I'd either take the Lucky, Skilled or Tough feat depending on what I would like to focus on. All in all you'll get a very well-rounded character with not too bad survivability.

For gear I'd probably get a repeating crossbow or enhanced arcane focus and then something for utility.

Oh, and the reason why I personally wouldn't go Twlight Cleric (even if it is an excellent class) is because you have to but that 13/14 in Strength to be able to use good armour which still leaves you with rather poor Con and less than optimal survivability.

[Sception]

If tasha's stat swapping is in play then a half elf barbarian can start with 16 strength, 14 dex, and 14 con, which is generally the minimum starting scores in those stats that I would consider playing one with. Even without Tashas, a half elf paladin with those rolls can start with 16 strength, 14 con, and 14 cha, which again meets my own minimums for that class. You might step on the toes of the sorcadin a bit, but if they're the kind of sorcadin that plans to multiclass out after level 2 it shouldn't be too bad.

Beyond that, there are several classes that can make do with one 16 and one 14. Most fighters & rogues, dex attack rangers. Anything that uses the same stat for attack rolls, save DCs (if any) and armor class. So basically dex primary classes, or strength primary classes with heavy armor proficiency. You run into issues for classes that use one stat for offense and another for armor class because that leaves you with a relatively low constitution, which no class really wants, but if you're not on the front lines (blasty warlock, support bard, etc) you can make do with only a +1 con modifier, even if it's a bit suboptimal.

You can also just try to struggle through to 4th level with a 13 con, then take resilient: constitution. Medium armor clerics with a +2 dex, +1 wisdom race could start with 14 dex, 16 cha and struggle through on 13 con until resilient con at level 4, and be out of the weeds by the time they pick up spirit guardians. You'd be a bit fragile in the first part of the campaign, but quite strong by the end.

[Jacco]

To be perfectly honest, I'd ask the DM if I could just use the standard point array. If you can't, this is what I'd do:

Variant human and pick the Skill Expert feat at level one. That gives you 16-14-12-12-11-8 which isn't too bad. You also get expertise and another skill which makes up for lower stats. Then I would go for artificer (because it's SAD), either Armourer or Battle Smith to make you less reliable on strength for good armour/protection. You also get guidance which is great for ability checks.

You will get two feats/ASIs which I woulkd use to boost Intelligence to 18 (plenty enough for level 8) and then I'd either take the Lucky, Skilled or Tough feat depending on what I would like to focus on. All in all you'll get a very well-rounded character with not too bad survivability.

For gear I'd probably get a repeating crossbow or enhanced arcane focus and then something for utility.

Oh, and the reason why I personally wouldn't go Twlight Cleric (even if it is an excellent class) is because you have to but that 13/14 in Strength to be able to use good armour which still leaves you with rather poor Con and less than optimal survivability.

Being a dwarf with profic. with heavy armor it means that I can ignore the Strength requirement beacause of his racial :Your base walking speed is 25 feet. Your speed is not reduced by wearing heavy armor. Am i wrong?

Our party is composed by a sorlock and a pally. I thought that a cleric would be a good pick

[Dalinar]

Thanks for all these tips, really :)


As I looked through the manuals I thought of a particular (funny?) build:
dwarf with the mark from eberron (which gives me the armor of agathys spell)
1 liv of cleric (life? forge? twilight? nature?) for heavy armor prof, cantrip and spell.
x levels of wizard (abjuration)

The concept is to be able to stay in melee by absorbing damage and doing damage with agathys, cantrips and spell. Alternatively, if I got the cleric of nature I can use booming blade +Shillelagh
It might work? Which cleric domain should I take?

life: great spell knows and +2 to my healing spells
twilight :great spell knows and advantage for the initiative roll
forge : +1 to AC or +1 to hit and damage roll
nature: Shillelagh

If you plan on picking that race to get AOA, dipping something and then going Abjuration, I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you to dip Artificer instead for Battle Smith. Your relatively poor rolls mean you want to be as SAD as possible, which Battle Smith basically only needs INT with a little CON/DEX and can safely dump the other three. Once you get those, you go Abjurer the rest of the way. Maybe pick up Resilient (WIS/CON) along the way, grab +2 INT twice as well, then you still have a fourth feat to play with.

If you really want to dip Cleric and then multiclass out, you basically want Druid for the second class, because of the stat issues; in which case I'd either go Twilight/Shepherd (numerous summons that don't care as much about your low stats) or X/Moon because Moon stats don't matter as much as everyone else's. Maybe Life/Wildfire would make a good healer?

[Man_Over_Game]

Balanced stats means you'll want a multi-purpose character. High stats means you'll want a melee character, while low stats means you'll want someone in the rear.

So you want a multipurpose character that sits in the back.

So....Bard?

[Droppeddead]

Being a dwarf with profic. with heavy armor it means that I can ignore the Strength requirement beacause of his racial :Your base walking speed is 25 feet. Your speed is not reduced by wearing heavy armor. Am i wrong?

That is true. You probably won't get as much out of a dwarf cleric as a variant human artificer though, especially if you go clerics since they are a lot more MAD. Between the paladin and the artificer you should have enough healing and buffing to go around. Especially once the paladin hits level 6.


If you plan on picking that race to get AOA, dipping something and then going Abjuration, I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you to dip Artificer instead for Battle Smith. Your relatively poor rolls mean you want to be as SAD as possible, which Battle Smith basically only needs INT with a little CON/DEX and can safely dump the other three. Once you get those, you go Abjurer the rest of the way. Maybe pick up Resilient (WIS/CON) along the way, grab +2 INT twice as well, then you still have a fourth feat to play with.


You only get two feats for 8 levels of play, three if you go v.human, four only if you go v.human fighter.

[Eldariel]

That is true. You probably won't get as much out of a dwarf cleric as a variant human artificer though, especially if you go clerics since they are a lot more MAD. Between the paladin and the artificer you should have enough healing and buffing to go around. Especially once the paladin hits level 6.

This is doubly true, because you only have a 15 and a 13, ergo two decent stats. You can't afford 16 Int, 14 Con and 13 Wis as a Dwarf. Therefore it's more prudent to go like 16 Int, 15 Con (for Res: Con) and **** everything else; Artificer opens up the door for this. It's competitive with Cleric dip anyways; some Cleric domains are a tad better but it's not far behind and it offers some unique benefits to you too.

EDIT: Oh yeah, except you can't take Res: Con as an Artificer since you already have Con-save proficiency. Well, deal with it and go 17/14 taking a half Int-feat instead, I guess.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hi guys,for a new campaign mainly set in dungeons, I'm creating a character. First I rolled the dice, here's the result: 15-13-12-11-11-8. Worst ever :smallmad:, no chance of being able to change or improve them.What class could i take to try and optimize everything? we are a party of three with a sorlock and maybe a thief, we start from level 1 and we should get to level 8. All books available.

I'm thinking a cleric? Maybe a druid? I'd like to take a barbarian but with these rolls better to avoid it...

Thanks!!
If you go standard Human, Twilight Cleric, you'll do fine.
13 12 14 12 16 9.

vHuman, Circle of the Moon, might be better though. Take the Tasha's feat that allows a floagint +1 and one expertise.

11 Str 13 Dex 14 Con. 11 int 16 Wis 8 Cha. Add the +1 to Dex.

11 14 14 11 16 8

That will make a fine vHuman Druid, Circle of the Moon.

last suggestion is vHuman Life Cleric, take the Magic Initiatie / Druid / and get Goodberry, Shillelagh, and Guidance Cantrips from the feat.
12 Str 12 Dex 14 Con 11 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha
Your melee attacks via shillelagh are boosted by wisdom.

[Nefariis]

This the reason why I will never have people roll for stats at my table, someone always under rolls the average and someone always over rolls the average - and then you get someone asking on here "what can I play given this starting array" instead of actually playing what they want to play

I would just tell the DM you are not enthused with your rolls and ask the DM if you can take the "Standard Array" - it's not unreasonable and any DM should let you do it.

If he still doesn't, I would go one of three ways -

Buff Support character - No need for high stats when you are primarily targeting allies and running around in combat

Star Druid (Chalice) 2 / Life Cleric X with Healer feat (you get guidance, bless, good berry, Shillelagh, heavy armor, and the healing feat is surprisingly awesome at all levels)
Halfling Diviner Wizard 2, Lore Bard X with the Lucky feat and the Bountiful Luck Feat (give your DM fits and have access to buff spells / magic secrets)


Moon Druid Anything - No need to have high stats when you're using someone else's

10 Moon Druid / Anything X
1 Monk / 10 Moon Druid / Anything X (this gets you WIS to AC)
1 Barbarian / 10 Moon Druid / Anything X (this gets you CON to AC)
20 Moon Druid


Paladins/Hex Dip - Heavy armor, CHA is your primary stat to hit/damage/Spells, you have buff spells, Auras, magic resistance (OoA), short rest smites

1 Hexblade / Paladin X
2 Hexblade / Paladin X
3 Hexblade / Paladin X


As a side not, Mithril Plate Armor is uncommon and should not be that hard to come by in very large city but that would allow you to wear plate armor with as little as 8 STR

[Droppeddead]

As a side not, Mithril Plate Armor is uncommon and should not be that hard to come by in very large city but that would allow you to wear plate armor with as little as 8 STR

While I agree that any reasonable DM should always allow for SPA, I don't think it's the best idea to make a build that is reliant on a particular piece of armor to be functional. if nothing else, if the DM won't allow SPA, hoping for Mithral armour might be in wane.

[diplomancer]

I agree that those stats are bad for a Barbarian and Monks; but any other class is quite doable; stats are bad but not horrible. I've rolled and played a character where the highest roll was 14 and I was on Cleric duty (before Tasha's, very few races give + 2 Wis, only Firbolgs and V. Humans that take Observant; and Firbolg was not an option due to setting). I can't say I liked the rolls, but I had some fun in the (short-lived) campaign with only a 14 wis.

That said, because your two highest stats are odd, you probably don't want the +2,+1 races. V. Human, Half-Elves, and Mountain-Dwarves will work fine. For the purposes of this post, I will ignore Tasha's racial ASI rules, but of course, if they are an option, your options will widen considerably:

V. Human- almost anything will do well, though Rogues would be best; 16 Dex, 14 Con and a feat is not a bad start. Almost any arcane caster also works perfectly well with 16 (casting stat), 14 Con, and Warcaster.
Clerics and Druids also do well with those stats, just don't go too much into melee (or if you do want to go into melee, 14 Dex and 12 Con is an option, as it is for Hexblades). Oddly enough, because Bards, specially, have bad native AC, having -1 Dex compared to the "usual" 14 dex (that you'd get with the Standard Array) hurts less, since every extra point of AC mitigates more and more damage.

Half-Elves- this one gives you a lot of options; you can be a Swashbuckler, with 16 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Cha. You can be a Warlock with Cha 17, 14 Dex, 13 Con, grab either + 1 Cha/Con at 4 or Elven Accuracy at 4 and Resilient (con) at 8. You can be a sorcerer with Cha 17, Con 14, 13 Dex, grab +1 Cha/Dex at 4. You can be a Paladin with 16 Str (or Dex), 14 Con, 14 Cha. You could also go with 17 Cha, 14 Str, 13 Con, grab 1 level of Hexblade, +1 Cha/Str at level 4 and be a Conquest Paladin that gets resilient Con at some point (I'd get it at Pal 8, looking at odd stats which I intend to raise in my sheet irks me, but people say that raising your Cha should be a top priority for Conquest Pals; if you agree with them, you'd only get it at Pal 12; you could get a Cha half-feat instead of +1 Cha/Str at 4 if your campaign involves no dungeon crawling and you can have your steed with you at pretty much all times, but even then I'm not sure it's recommended; your steed might die)

Mountain Dwarves- probably the best option if you want to be a Barbarian; Str 17, Con 14, Dex 13, +1 Dex and Str at level 4. You won't be the "naked Barbarian" as you won't be able to raise your Con enough for this strategy to be worth it, but you WILL have decent AC and big hits. Use a shield until you get a hold of GWM, if need be. Obviously it also goes well with straight Fighters, Str 17, Con 15, raise both at level 4; though I'd say a V. Human with 16 Str, 14 Con and a feat is probably better, Mountain Dwarf is still a viable option.

Other options: any Hill Dwarf Cleric with heavy armor proficiency; Wis 16, Con 15, Get Res (Con) at some point. If you really want to use weapons, Nature might be your best option for Shillelagh, but remember you don't need to use weapons at all, specially if Tasha's alternate class features are in play.

[Eldariel]

V. Human- almost anything will do well, though Rogues would be best; 16 Dex, 14 Con and a feat is not a bad start.

Curious what makes you say that? Rogues are fine but I'd definitely say e.g. Heavy Armor Cleric and Druid are more fine. Druid loses nothing if they're Wildshaping and summoning, and Cleric loses 10' of movement speed at worst. If you have Warcaster, your melee is more than fine with Toll the Dead + Shield + OAs + Conc at advantage.

[diplomancer]

Curious what makes you say that? Rogues are fine but I'd definitely say e.g. Heavy Armor Cleric and Druid are more fine. Druid loses nothing if they're Wildshaping and summoning, and Cleric loses 10' of movement speed at worst. If you have Warcaster, your melee is more than fine with Toll the Dead + Shield + OAs + Conc at advantage.

Heh- I was editing my post while you wrote that. I agree, all these other options are just as good. My mind just went straight to Rogue because I tend to think they are the SADest class.

I think sacrificing 10' moving speed is a very risky strategy, though, I don't recommend it. Sometimes you have to run away.

Edit: I just noticed the full party and level range, was looking at the stats in abstract, sorry. Moon druid is probably best; you can tank, you can heal, you can control; which means you can get pretty much ANY race that raises your Wis and you'll be fine. I'd go either V. Human with Warcaster (best) or Hill Dwarf. Ghostwise Halflings would allow you to communicate with your party even while in wildshape without doing Lassie imitations.

If indeed ALL options are in play, you can be a Tasha's ASI adjusted Mark of Warding Dwarf; a Mage Armoured/Armor of Agathys'ed CR 1 beast is a quite interesting opponent at tier 1 and early tier 2. If you or your DM dislikes summons, the Orzhov guild background gives you Spirit Guardians, a decent choice instead of Conjure Animals.

[Sception]

My problem with heavy armor cleric on those rolls is that you're going to have difficulty hitting 15 strength and 14 con while also keeping your wisdom in viable attack stat range. Even taking a half feat at level 4, that's not super easy. Medium armor cleric does better, since you're only aiming for 14 dex instead of 15 strength. And you'll get better dex saves and initiative rolls to boot.

[Droppeddead]

Curious what makes you say that? Rogues are fine but I'd definitely say e.g. Heavy Armor Cleric and Druid are more fine. Druid loses nothing if they're Wildshaping and summoning, and Cleric loses 10' of movement speed at worst. If you have Warcaster, your melee is more than fine with Toll the Dead + Shield + OAs + Conc at advantage.

Losing ten feet of movement means that every dwarf or halfling will outpace you. You will get outmanouvered easily and be a hindrance to your party. My question would be what you need from Cleric that you can't get from, for example, Artificer? Especially since from level 2 an artificer would have an effective spellcasting ability of 18.

[Eldariel]

Losing ten feet of movement means that every dwarf or halfling will outpace you. You will get outmanouvered easily and be a hindrance to your party. My question would be what you need from Cleric that you can't get from, for example, Artificer? Especially since from level 2 an artificer would have an effective spellcasting ability of 18.

But then everyone outpaces dwarves and halflings. If you really want, you can just take Mobile as a feat to have normal speed though of course that's kinda wasteful. Cleric and Artificer are both nice of course but very different; not sure why you'd compare the two.

[diplomancer]

Moon Druid does have one drawback; if the campaign is set mostly in dungeons, being size Large can pose a problem. Try to see if you can shapeshift into a Clawfoot or a Deinonychus if you are going to be fighting in confined spaces; as they are unusual beasts you'd have to get that somehow in your background.

[Droppeddead]

But then everyone outpaces dwarves and halflings.

Well, duh. That's kind of the point. being even slower than the slow is a bad thing.


If you really want, you can just take Mobile as a feat to have normal speed though of course that's kinda wasteful.

Sure, but wasting an entire feat basically just so that you egt on even grounds is not a good build and far from optimizing the rolls that the OP is talking about.


Cleric and Artificer are both nice of course but very different; not sure why you'd compare the two.

Because the entire thread is about comparing classes to see which would be the best given the circumstances?

[Eldariel]

Because the entire thread is about comparing classes to see which would be the best given the circumstances?

Well, my surprise was because it seems pretty obvious to me. Like Cleric casts 9s off its list while Artificer casts 6s off its and infuses items. Then there's domains vs.
subclasses. Cleric has the SG/SW lockdown, Silence, Bless, Death Ward, Animare Dead, Summon Celestial, etc. Meanwhile Artificer has a bunch of magic item tricks, Flash of Genius and a midrange list. So you go Cleri if you want 9s, Artificer if you want magic item tricks.

[Droppeddead]

Well, my surprise was because it seems pretty obvious to me. Like Cleric casts 9s off its list while Artificer casts 6s off its and infuses items. Then there's domains vs.
subclasses. Cleric has the SG/SW lockdown, Silence, Bless, Death Ward, Animare Dead, Summon Celestial, etc. Meanwhile Artificer has a bunch of magic item tricks, Flash of Genius and a midrange list. So you go Cleri if you want 9s, Artificer if you want magic item tricks.

{Scrubbed} Or are you trying to argue that clerics are a better class than artificers in general, just based on the fact that clerics have access to higher level spells? :smallconfused:

[Eldariel]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote} Or are you trying to argue that clerics are a better class than artificers in general, just based on the fact that clerics have access to higher level spells? :smallconfused:

Obviously having higher level spells is better than not having them. OTOH having item infusions is better than not having them. The level doesn't really matter; this goes starting from level 3. I'm not exactly sure what you're arguing here. I'm not saying either is a better class (though I do think Clerics are largely better), I'm saying they offer different things and thus the reasons you'd pick one over the others are, naturally, what those classes offer.

[Droppeddead]

Obviously having higher level spells is better than not having them. OTOH having item infusions is better than not having them. The level doesn't really matter; this goes starting from level 3. I'm not exactly sure what you're arguing here. I'm not saying either is a better class (though I do think Clerics are largely better), I'm saying they offer different things and thus the reasons you'd pick one over the others are, naturally, what those classes offer.

{Scrubbed}

[HPisBS]

Hi guys,for a new campaign mainly set in dungeons, I'm creating a character. First I rolled the dice, here's the result: 15-13-12-11-11-8. Worst ever :smallmad:, no chance of being able to change or improve them.What class could i take to try and optimize everything? we are a party of three with a sorlock and maybe a thief, we start from level 1 and we should get to level 8. All books available.

I'm thinking a cleric? Maybe a druid? I'd like to take a barbarian but with these rolls better to avoid it...

Thanks!!

Cleric and Druid would both be great, particularly when nobody else in your party does any healing.

Cleric, Druid, and Artificer are all SAD and can all contribute some healing. So within those three, I'd say just pick whatever seems the most fun - whether that's invalidating the rolled physical stats by Wildshaping into bears, or being an absolute healbot Life Cleric, or going all-out on the supporter role as an Artificer.

Just whatever strikes your fancy; any SAD class will do.