(Solved) My players still complain about 'Self, 5-ft. radius'

[Cheesegear]

We play on a grid.
Crawford recently - by which I mean 4 months ago - said in a Tweet:


A note about D&D spells with a range of "Self (XYZ)": the parenthetical—which says "5-foot radius," "15-foot cone," or something else—means you are the spell's point of origin, but you aren't necessarily its target. You're creating an effect that originates in your space.

"You're creating an effect that originates in your space." my players are now telling me what they think that that means:

https://i.imgur.com/xNmLySE.png

1. The spell originates from you, in the 'center' of your space, and travels 5 ft. into orthogonal squares, but not diagonal ones.

2. The spell originates from your space, and travels 5 ft. in all directions.

3. Spells with an area of effect must be placed on grid intersections, that originate on your space.

[LudicSavant]

We play on a grid.
Crawford recently - by which I mean 4 months ago - said in a Tweet:



"You're creating an effect that originates in your space." my players are now telling me what they think that that means:

https://i.imgur.com/xNmLySE.png

1. The spell originates from you, in the 'center' of your space, and travels 5 ft. into orthogonal squares, but not diagonal ones.

2. The spell originates from your space, and travels 5 ft. in all directions.

3. Spells with an area of effect must be placed on grid intersections, that originate on your space.

It's #2, especially if you care about what Crawford says (since he's posted that a few times now).

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/752596028948226048

[Ghost Nappa]

#3 is arguably more life-like, as it actually has a 5-foot radius but #2 is what I believe to be the intended reading.

#1 is definitely wrong: diagonals on a grid are treated as 5 then 10, then 5, then 10 as a sort of compromise with geometry.

[Cheesegear]

It's #2, especially if you care about what Crawford says (since he's posted that a few times now).

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/752596028948226048

Fair enough.


#3 is arguably more life-like, as it actually has a 5-foot radius.

5-ft radius is an area of effect. As an area of effect, it is placed on an intersection. It should be the rule, and it's what I've been arguing, since it's how I read it.
Since it would only effect three squares - not including the caster - it is also the worst reading, hence my players' complaints.

[Unoriginal]

It's #2, especially if you care about what Crawford says (since he's posted that a few times now).

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/752596028948226048

And as he says, for a Medium creature the 5ft aoe is:


E E E
E M E
E E E

While for a Large creature it's

E E E E
E L L E
E L L E
E E E E

And for a Huge one it's

E E E E E
E H H H E
E H H H E
E H H H E
E E E E E

[Cheesegear]

And as he says, for a Medium creature the 5ft aoe is:

So when you 'throw' a spell with a 5-ft radius, you hit four squares;
But you cast a 5-ft radius spell on yourself, you hit eight (nine) squares?

Seems arbitrary. But then so are most rules.

[Unoriginal]

So when you 'throw' a spell with a 5-ft radius, you hit four squares;
But you cast a 5-ft radius spell on yourself, you hit eight (nine) squares?

Seems arbitrary. But then so are most rules.

All the rules are arbitrary, which is why one of the DM's roles is to arbitrate.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So, Thunderwave is Self (15 ft. cube). Does that mean it's a 15 ft. cube with the edge at the edge of your space, or is it a 15 ft. cube with you at the center of it? How would that even function for larger creatures if the latter?

[Valmark]

We play on a grid.
Crawford recently - by which I mean 4 months ago - said in a Tweet:

"You're creating an effect that originates in your space." my players are now telling me what they think that that means:

https://i.imgur.com/xNmLySE.png

1. The spell originates from you, in the 'center' of your space, and travels 5 ft. into orthogonal squares, but not diagonal ones.

2. The spell originates from your space, and travels 5 ft. in all directions.

3. Spells with an area of effect must be placed on grid intersections, that originate on your space.
#2 is the RAW if only because none of the others have actually a 5 feet radius so wouldn't count (I'm assuming there is no confusion about a cone shape).

#3 is arguably more life-like, as it actually has a 5-foot radius but #2 is what I believe to be the intended reading.

#1 is definitely wrong: diagonals on a grid are treated as 5 then 10, then 5, then 10 as a sort of compromise with geometry.
#3 makes sense for a cone, but for a sphere none but the #2 make sense.

Note on 1#- agreed, although the grid rules in 5e are a bit funny. The variant rule in the PHB treats all diagonals as 5 feet movement- then on the DMG there is an optional rule for the variant rule that says to alternate them.
It doesn't matter right now but I wanted to specify that.

Fair enough.



5-ft radius is an area of effect. As an area of effect, it is placed on an intersection. It should be the rule, and it's what I've been arguing, since it's how I read it.
Since it would only effect three squares - not including the caster - it is also the worst reading, hence my players' complaints.
Well, yes and not. If it originates from you it shouldn't be on an intersection. You are in a square, not an intersection.

So when you 'throw' a spell with a 5-ft radius, you hit four squares;
But you cast a 5-ft radius spell on yourself, you hit eight (nine) squares?

Seems arbitrary. But then so are most rules.

Well, consider that the 4-squares-hitting spell can be thrown at a distance, so it's more balanced then it looks.


So, Thunderwave is Self (15 ft. cube). Does that mean it's a 15 ft. cube with the edge at the edge of your space, or is it a 15 ft. cube with you at the center of it? How would that even function for larger creatures if the latter?

As fun as it'd be to have a Huge creature Thunderwave itself, the latter interpretation would be 'right' and a huge creature would project a square that extends fifteen feet beyond it's own space.

[Carpe Gonzo]

Which one makes the most sense to you for a large or larger creature?

( # = emtpy space, E = effect, M = monster)
#EE#
EMME
EMME
#EE#

EEEE
EMME
EMME
EEEE

or

##EE
#MME
#MM#
####

?

[Cheesegear]

Well, consider that the 4-squares-hitting spell can be thrown at a distance, so it's more balanced then it looks.

Ice Knife and Hail of Thorns, however, do not have a range of 'Self', but, explode from a target - in a space.

Does Ice Knife and Hail of Thorns hit 3(4) targets, or 8 (9) targets? Since they're not a range of 'Self', Crawford's ruling doesn't apply, right?

[Valmark]

Ice Knife and Hail of Thorns, however, do not have a range of 'Self', but, explode from a target - in a space.

Does Ice Knife and Hail of Thorns hit 3(4) targets, or 8 (9) targets? Since they're not a range of 'Self', Crawford's ruling doesn't apply, right?

Imo 8 (assuming there even are 8 targets around) due to the wording- it hits all creatures within 5 feet of the creature and you can fit that many around.

Assuming Medium size and no fliers.

Not sure why that's relevant though, since it's not a "5 feet radius" either.

[LudicSavant]

So when you 'throw' a spell with a 5-ft radius, you hit four squares;
But you cast a 5-ft radius spell on yourself, you hit eight (nine) squares?

Seems arbitrary. But then so are most rules.

The difference is that one is targeting things within 5 feet of a point, and the other is targeting things within 5 feet of a creature’s space. The latter is larger.

[J-H]

I use #2.



#1 is definitely wrong: diagonals on a grid are treated as 5 then 10, then 5, then 10 as a sort of compromise with geometry.

That's a 3.5 rule and doesn't apply in 5e.
This makes aerial combat measurements a lot simpler...see Matt Colville's video, about 5:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RinFvgNdHLs

[bid]

Compare to weapon reach, which also uses self as the origin. A weapon can attack all adjacent squares, both orthogonal and diagonal.

[Unoriginal]

Compare to weapon reach, which also uses self as the origin. A weapon can attack all adjacent squares, both orthogonal and diagonal.

Excellent point.

[8wGremlin]

Also read the spell carefully, some may say POINT in which case it can be the centre of a Square or anywhere else.
some say point and then specify an intersection of squares. (edited for clarity)

In which case the size and shape emanate from that point, and not an originating square.

[Valmark]

Also read the spell carefully, some may say POINT in which case it can be the centre of a Square or anywhere else.
some say point and then specify an intersection of squares.

In which case the size and shape emanate from that point, and not an originating square.

I don't think there's any spell that says that it originates from an intersection of squares?

[8wGremlin]

I don't think there's any spell that says that it originates from an intersection of squares?

I was trying to imply that it is a POINT in space, sorry that didn't come across very well. my bad.

[Intregus182]

Start using hexagon's instead and it'll be easier.

[Cheesegear]

I don't think there's any spell that says that it originates from an intersection of squares?

Any area of effect spell that describes a 'point', targets an intersection of squares...


Fireball
Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point...

...That 'point', is an intersection of squares...Per the rules.

Spells that target a 'space' or 'creature', and then project a radius (e.g; Ice Knife, Hail of Thorns), effectively have their area of effect doubled under Crawford's ruling. Since the difference between 'space' and 'point' is now more differentiated.

Moonbeam, with a 5-ft radius, hits 4 squares.
Thunderclap, also with a 5-ft radius, but originates from 'you' or Self, hits 8(9) squares.
As a DM, I would argue that spells like Hail of Thorns and Ice Knife work similarly, and hit 8(9) squares, as Level 1 spell slots, at range. That makes no sense.

Moonbeam is a Level 2 Spell.
Thunderclap is a Cantrip.

I don't have Twitter, and am unable to confirm how Crawford's ruling works, on a grid.

EDIT:
Spells like Ice Knife and Hail of Thorns also get better, the larger the creature is.
Throwing an Ice Knife at a Dragon would kill all the Kobolds around it, as a Level 1 spell.
Fireball is a Level 3 spell.

[JackalTornMoons]

So, Thunderwave is Self (15 ft. cube). Does that mean it's a 15 ft. cube with the edge at the edge of your space, or is it a 15 ft. cube with you at the center of it? How would that even function for larger creatures if the latter?


As fun as it'd be to have a Huge creature Thunderwave itself, the latter interpretation would be 'right' and a huge creature would project a square that extends fifteen feet beyond it's own space.


This isn't correct.

Thunderwave creates a 15ft cube with a point of origin of the caster, not centered on the caster.

Thunderwave has a range of "Self (15-foot cube)"

So we look at "Range":

Spells that create [areas of effect] that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you. (PHB p.202)

And then look at "Areas of Effect":

Cube You select a cube's point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect.... A cube's point of origin is not included in the cube's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise. (PHB p.204)

CEEE
XEEE
XEEE

XEEE
CEEE
XEEE

XEEE
XEEE
CEEE

[Valmark]

Any area of effect spell that describes a 'point', targets an intersection of squares...



...That 'point', is an intersection of squares...Per the rules.

Spells that target a 'space' or 'creature', and then project a radius (e.g; Ice Knife, Hail of Thorns), effectively have their area of effect doubled under Crawford's ruling. Since the difference between 'space' and 'point' is now more differentiated.

Moonbeam, with a 5-ft radius, hits 4 squares.
Thunderclap, also with a 5-ft radius, but originates from 'you' or Self, hits 8(9) squares.
As a DM, I would argue that spells like Hail of Thorns and Ice Knife work similarly, and hit 8(9) squares, as Level 1 spell slots, at range. That makes no sense.

Moonbeam is a Level 2 Spell.
Thunderclap is a Cantrip.

I don't have Twitter, and am unable to confirm how Crawford's ruling works, on a grid.

EDIT:
Spells like Ice Knife and Hail of Thorns also get better, the larger the creature is.
Throwing an Ice Knife at a Dragon would kill all the Kobolds around it, as a Level 1 spell.
Fireball is a Level 3 spell.
Thunderclap, Ice Knife and Hail of Thorns don't have a 'radius' though (although the area's substantially similar).

Comparing Thunderclap to Moonbeam also doesn't mention that Moonbeam is way bigger in vertical, is ranged, can target in air and is a Concentration spell which can be moved- all those factors aside from Concentration are all advantages to Moonbeam. And even then I'm not sure needing Conc to deal damage repeatedly is a disadvantage.

It's also somewhat unfair to compare Ice Knife to Fireball using targets that don't have enough hp for Fireball's damage to matter, IMO (and even then I'm away from books but doesn't Ice Knife deal 0 damage on succesful saves?)

This isn't correct.

Thunderwave creates a 15ft cube with a point of origin of the caster, not centered on the caster.

Thunderwave has a range of "Self (15-foot cube)"

So we look at "Range":

Spells that create [areas of effect] that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you. (PHB p.202)

And then look at "Areas of Effect":

Cube You select a cube's point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect.... A cube's point of origin is not included in the cube's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise. (PHB p.204)

CEEE
XEEE
XEEE

XEEE
CEEE
XEEE

XEEE
XEEE
CEEE

Right, I probably got confused between radius (which was the main topic) and cubes. Or between Thunderclap and Thunderwave (one hits everything within range, the other is a cube). Anyway yeah, you're right, thanks for the correction ^^

[LudicSavant]

Judging by how often these threads come up, I'm starting to wonder if maybe people would want a clear guide to AoE rules or something. With examples using miniatures and all that.

[Samayu]

Thunderwave says the cube originates from you, but I don't see why you couldn't center it on yourself. Just be aware that if you're inside it, you're taking damage too.

[PhantomSoul]

Thunderwave says the cube originates from you, but I don't see why you couldn't center it on yourself. Just be aware that if you're inside it, you're taking damage too.

That could arguably be covered by the phrasing of "sweeps out from you" and avoiding needing to figure out how you get pushed 10 feet away from yourself, but it's true that it doesn't say "Each creature other than you" or something similar.

[Segev]

Judging by how often these threads come up, I'm starting to wonder if maybe people would want a clear guide to AoE rules or something. With examples using miniatures and all that.

If nothing else, something where it is easy to point to the fact that bonfire, using a "five foot cube," technically hits 4 squares, and arguably up to 5 in a + shape.

[bid]

Thunderwave says the cube originates from you, but I don't see why you couldn't center it on yourself. Just be aware that if you're inside it, you're taking damage too.
cube: "which lies anywhere on a face"
You are never inside it, "unless you decide otherwise."