Soon Fell Instead of Kraagor?

[CountDVB]

Well, we are at the final book where everything is leading up to this. As we stand and look upon all the players, including ones we don't know and likely have forgotten about, coming together, we all must look back and see how it started. With the final Gate being made at the cost of Kraagor's life and the final domino that set the fallout between the Scribblers.

But, what if it was Soon Kim who fell? Perhaps he took the fatal blow instead instead of Kraagor? Maybe even pushing him out of the way if he had the chance to do?

How does that lead things?

After all, from what has been speculated, Soon Kim's leadership style and priorizing the goal over the safety of his comrades was a large portion of the fallout and seperated him from the others (though we don't know how he viewed the others outside of some minor and skewed hints at Girard and Dorukan and the fact he started it with Lirian). However, here, he falls giving his life for their quest and ensuring none of them died but him?

The others would still go to guard their Gates with Kraagor working on his, however that may be, though we know little of how he could (perhaps the others help?) Serini would likely take it upon herself to make Soon's Tomb or Soon's Mausoleum in Azure City, likely combining his belief in the righteous belief in paladins' honor with her own roguish knowledge (especially since I imagine she'd realize the toxic political environment of Azure City aristocracy). Maybe the Paladins who guard it just do so defensively and thus don't go on crusades?

How would the others go?

I figure this would be a fun thought experiment.

[Peelee]

Well, for one, it would be a bit strange for Soon to have started the Sapphire Guard before there was a Sapphire to guard. Plus, Shojo remembered Soon as an old man, so unless Kraagor had some good Deception and Disguise, I don't really think that holds up. Plus the statue to Kraagor would be an oddity.

[ziproot]

Well, for one, it would be a bit strange for Soon to have started the Sapphire Guard before there was a Sapphire to guard. Plus, Shojo remembered Soon as an old man, so unless Kraagor had some good Deception and Disguise, I don't really think that holds up. Plus the statue to Kraagor would be an oddity.

I am pretty sure this is a hypothetical situation.

[CountDVB]

Well, for one, it would be a bit strange for Soon to have started the Sapphire Guard before there was a Sapphire to guard. Plus, Shojo remembered Soon as an old man, so unless Kraagor had some good Deception and Disguise, I don't really think that holds up. Plus the statue to Kraagor would be an oddity.

Yeah, hence the what-if. It was a hypothetical question to explore the world and so on...

[georgie_leech]

Yeah, hence the what-if. It was a hypothetical question to explore the world and so on...

Seeing as how our main villain was motivated by the Sapphire Guard and their actions, and by extension our protagonists came about because of the Sapphire Guard, and our window into the world was based on these people... I'm not sure it's really a place we can make much comment? Like, it's a fertile ground for fanfiction maybe, but it's not something that you can make reliable predictions around, so it seems like we'd mostly be talking past each other.

Like, the whole set up with the 5 gates being defended individually had a fight between Girard and Soon as the catalyst. We don't even get the opening strips the way they played out without Soon dying.

[Peelee]

I am pretty sure this is a hypothetical situation.


Yeah, hence the what-if. It was a hypothetical question to explore the world and so on...

Ahhhhh. I am not a smart man.

[CountDVB]

Seeing as how our main villain was motivated by the Sapphire Guard and their actions, and by extension our protagonists came about because of the Sapphire Guard, and our window into the world was based on these people... I'm not sure it's really a place we can make much comment? Like, it's a fertile ground for fanfiction maybe, but it's not something that you can make reliable predictions around, so it seems like we'd mostly be talking past each other.

Like, the whole set up with the 5 gates being defended individually had a fight between Girard and Soon as the catalyst. We don't even get the opening strips the way they played out without Soon dying.

True, but that does not mean that there wouldn’t be conflict within the group. Dorukan and Lirian seemed to separate from Serini and Girard and not sure how it will be here with Kraagor.

The goblins would still be motivated to seek out the Gates given the presence of the Crimson Mantle, though that would still play out different. Xykon would still be a threat though I imagine not as big.

As for the other Gates, well, I wonder if Dorukan had a plan in case he died. How different Azure City would be if the Sapphire Guard was more defense-based and on guarding Soon’s Tomb?

Would the Vector Legion ever have found Girard’s Gate?

[InvisibleBison]

It was Kraagor's death that caused the breakup of the Order of the Squiggle. Soon's death wouldn't cause such an emotional explosion, so if he dies the OotSquiggle doesn't break up. This means that they work together to create defenses for each of the gates.

And the Order of the Stick never forms, either: Without the Sapphire Guard killing all the other clerics of the Dark one, the goblin known as Redcloak never becomes the Bearer of the Crimson. This means that Redcloak never teams up with Xykon, so Xykon never becomes a lich and dies of old age before the comic starts.

[CountDVB]

It was Kraagor's death that caused the breakup of the Order of the Squiggle. Soon's death wouldn't cause such an emotional explosion, so if he dies the OotSquiggle doesn't break up. This means that they work together to create defenses for each of the gates.

And the Order of the Stick never forms, either: Without the Sapphire Guard killing all the other clerics of the Dark one, the goblin known as Redcloak never becomes the Bearer of the Crimson. This means that Redcloak never teams up with Xykon, so Xykon never becomes a lich and dies of old age before the comic starts.

Possibly though I note how Serini and Girard never stayed in contact with Lirian and Dorukan and there's also Kraagor to consider.

I am wondering if the Gates would be kept secret or not...

[russdm]

To quote a great mentor:

"Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope."

Soon dying means no separate Gate defenses that each of the members of the Scribble don't know about. Even more importantly: There is no cause for the Scribblers to break up. That means the protections laid down on very much lessened because each member would be expecting the others to show up to assist.



But, what if it was Soon Kim who fell? Perhaps he took the fatal blow instead instead of Kraagor? Maybe even pushing him out of the way if he had the chance to do?

How does that lead things?

The others would still go to guard their Gates with Kraagor working on his, however that may be, though we know little of how he could (perhaps the others help?) Serini would likely take it upon herself to make Soon's Tomb or Soon's Mausoleum in Azure City, likely combining his belief in the righteous belief in paladins' honor with her own roguish knowledge (especially since I imagine she'd realize the toxic political environment of Azure City aristocracy). Maybe the Paladins who guard it just do so defensively and thus don't go on crusades?


Given how the portrayal was in lore, I don't think it is believable that Serini would erect a statue for Soon or a tomb, or even work to create something. You have to remember that pretty much every member of the Scribblers didn't care for Soon at all, whereas Kraagor was well-liked. If you go by Girard's comment that Soon should have died and the party not responding to this comment.

Without Soon there are no Sapphire Guard, and no Sapphire Guard to go taking out threats to that Gate, which means more threats to the Gates as a whole. Then there is no real effort to stop the Dark One or the bearer of the Crimson Mantle.

Without Soon, the Scribblers don't fracture apart because I didn't get the Impression that Soon's death would have been so tragic seeming for them. That means it is highly unlikely that Serini immortalizes Soon, because there is nothing in the Lore that suggests Serini cared that much for Soon, and everything that I have read of the Scribblers suggests that with Soon being in charge, it was Teeth-Clenched Teamwork for the others to varying degrees.

Consider that of the surviving members of the Scribblers, only Soon kept the oath not to contact each other or interact with the Gates.

Consider in the scene of the breakup, it is Soon going against Girard and Dorukan with Lirian standing off looking unsure about what to do, and Serini standing off. That clearly shows that Soon was not liked by the party.

If Kraagor lives, then the Scribblers don't employ separate methods for protecting the Gates, because they are still a team and not responsible for a single gate which they don't share defending. That means defeating one gate's defenses means that you can defeat all of them now.

Redcloak might not be the bearer of the Crimson Mantle this time around with Soon dying instead, but the attempt to do the Dark One's plan will still happen.

Whether Xykon is involved will depend on what decisions are made by the Current (The owner who had the Mantle that gave it to Redcloak) will do, and if that person will recruit Xykon or not.

So, may die of old age, or die in Lirian's cell or die from other thing. Or Xykon becomes a Lich.

As for events, only 1 or 2 gates will end up getting destroyed but there is a considerably much higher chance that a gate gets taken over by evil forces. Maybe even the Crimson Mantle person is able to set the Dark One's plan in motion years earlier.

It is not clear how the Gates would shuffle out with Soon gone and Kraagor alive. It is unlikely in this scenario that they would separate and be responsible for an individual gate.

Then, I don't' see the Scribblers arguing over how to defend the Gates either, since that argument came up as part of emotional crises over Kraagor's death. With Soon dying, it would be in character for Girard or more members to say "Good Riddance" and then discuss what to do about the Gates. They are more likely to agree on making different parts of the defense and spreading out that responsibility and then applying the defenses to each gate in turn. All of the same ones.



So, goodbye world far sooner than we knew you

[NerdyKris]

We don't actually know the full story of what happened or why it lead to the rift in the group yet. So we can't really say "What would have happened if Soon died" if we don't even fully know what happened when Kraagor died. Rich has said that this is integral to the plot and will be explored, but I don't think we've gotten anywhere near enough information to even know if Kraagor is actually dead.

[russdm]

We don't actually know the full story of what happened or why it lead to the rift in the group yet. So we can't really say "What would have happened if Soon died" if we don't even fully know what happened when Kraagor died. Rich has said that this is integral to the plot and will be explored, but I don't think we've gotten anywhere near enough information to even know if Kraagor is actually dead.


We do know that his "death" was not well received and that Girard wished that Soon had died. Plus we know that Soon was calling for the Gate to be sealed even though he and Kraagor were not safely away.

Soon was the cause of many or seemly all of the party's stated problems, like the ones of bad feeling and stuff in the time the Scribblers spent as a group. I don't see that those issues boil to a problem without the death of beloved figure invoking grief at the same time.

Given that we see members of the Scribblers ready to fight each other (Soon vs Girard and Dorukon), I don't think you will end up with that happening if Soon died instead of Kraagor.

Given what happens here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), I don't think that occurs with Kraagor if he is alive. Looks like to me that the problems and such that caused the Scribblers to break up with directly related to Soon.

also the few comics after this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html)

[Morty]

We don't actually know the full story of what happened or why it lead to the rift in the group yet. So we can't really say "What would have happened if Soon died" if we don't even fully know what happened when Kraagor died. Rich has said that this is integral to the plot and will be explored, but I don't think we've gotten anywhere near enough information to even know if Kraagor is actually dead.

I came here to say this. We don't know what actually did happen yet, so speculating about what might have happened otherwise is pretty flimsy.

[halfeye]

I think the title of this thread is misworded, Kraagor didn't fall, that was Miko, Kraagor died an honourable death, even if the Snarl ate his soul.

[InvisibleBison]

I think the title of this thread is misworded, Kraagor didn't fall, that was Miko, Kraagor died an honourable death, even if the Snarl ate his soul.

"Fell" can mean die, especially in the context of dying in battle.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I think the title of this thread is misworded, Kraagor didn't fall, that was Miko, Kraagor died an honourable death, even if the Snarl ate his soul.

OP intended the title of the thread to include the "What If?" tag that was applied to the beginning.

For my own part, I concur with people upthread who are of the opinion that if Soon fell and not Kraagor, the Scribblers probably wouldn't have fallen apart in the aftermath. They may still have gone through with the idea of "take the Gate closest to your homeland and guard it" but would probably have actively collaborated in their defense and responded to whichever one(s) was/were under threat, if any. They may all have gotten to epic levels, but they were all mortal and aging and couldn't adventure forever before retiring and handing things over to descendants and/or successors.

Kraagor would have probably taken the northernmost Gate as it's in proximity to the dwarven homelands, but obviously wouldn't have set up the defenses the same way as Serini did. Ironically, he may have formed a dwarven version of the Sapphire Guard (the Ruby Brigade maybe?) made up of the mightiest warriors he could find to ceaselessly guard the Gate day and night and eliminate any nearby threats. Probably the bugbears, for instance, would have gotten the same treatment as the Sapphire Guard dealt to the goblins and hobgoblins, to say nothing of the frost giants and any other antagonistic arctic dwellers.

Serini probably would have ended up with the Azure City rift instead and teamed up with all sorts of ninja to surround it with roguish misdirections and traps like she seems to have done with the webcomic's northernmost Gate. No Sapphire Guard under Soon would probably mean no crusades to wipe out all those in range who might threaten the Gate, and thus no massacres that would give rise to Redcloak (and, by extension, Xykon's lichdom) or would give urgency to the Dark One's plan to upend the world's biased racial order. Then again, ninja allies under Serini's command might just, instead, surgically assassinate any goblinoid leader who rises enough to be a threat to the Azure City Gate rather than massacre entire realms.

[Shadowknight12]

*snipped for size*

I agree almost entirely with this take. The major difference I have with this is that as a barbarian, Kraagor's elite order would not be a uniform oath-bound corps of loyal soldiers, but a chaotic group of highly emotional, individually-skilled warriors, perhaps more akin to something like the Sacred Band of Thebes or a fantasy version of the Justice League, where each individual member is strong on their own and likely has a unique strength, and they are bound by emotions like fraternity and friendship rather than cold duty and oaths. That said, I think Kraagor's group would still result in positive-energy ghost-martyrs when defeated in the defense of the Gate. However, instead of returning from the dead due to loyalty and duty, it would be raw, chaotic emotion that would fuel their return.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I agree almost entirely with this take. The major difference I have with this is that as a barbarian, Kraagor's elite order would not be a uniform oath-bound corps of loyal soldiers, but a chaotic group of highly emotional, individually-skilled warriors, perhaps more akin to something like the Sacred Band of Thebes or a fantasy version of the Justice League, where each individual member is strong on their own and likely has a unique strength, and they are bound by emotions like fraternity and friendship rather than cold duty and oaths. That said, I think Kraagor's group would still result in positive-energy ghost-martyrs when defeated in the defense of the Gate. However, instead of returning from the dead due to loyalty and duty, it would be raw, chaotic emotion that would fuel their return.

BRB, going to go summon some Wrath Elementals. :smallcool:

[KorvinStarmast]

This thread is a strange piece of speculation that requires the entire story to be rewritten save the first dozen or so strips.
Like, it's a fertile ground for fanfiction
That's all it's good for, if that.

For the OP: I leave it as an exercise for the reader (which is you) to rebuild the plot from scratch and write your own story. If you are good at art, you might be able to make a web comic out of it.

You might as well have asked "What if Gollum had killed and eaten Bilbo in that cave when they first met?"

[Synesthesy]

You might as well have asked "What if Gollum had killed and eaten Bilbo in that cave when they first met?"

Well, this is actually easy.


As abbandoning friends in need isn't very Gandalfish, I think that the group would go back to look for Bilbo. Then, as there were more dwarfs then wizards, one of them would eventually find Gollum, understand what happened and then kill the creature, claiming the ring. Surely the will of the rings would agree with me that a dwarf master is better then a hobbit one. Then out of the cave, Thorin would discover what happened and the one ring, and they would try to hide it from Gandalf (who still is too good to become a thief, and too afraid to take the ring for himself). The next logical conclusion would that the group would continue the mission, and when they will find impossible to kill Smaug without Bilbo, Thorin would use the power of the ring to rise some power to defeat the dragon. The book aren't really clear about the power of the One Ring, except for granting invisibility and preserving from old age, but everywhere has been said that the ring can be used to win war, so Thorin would find a way.

Then the dwarfs would found some kind of nation in the north with Thorin as their king, and they would rise an army. At the same time, Sauron would know that his ring has been found, so he would move to Mordor and begin rising his own army. Now Gondor isn't in the way, instead he would prepare a plan to invade Mirkwood. Sauron would try to make an alliance with Saruman, or better he would try to manipulate Saruman into it, and Isengard would start producing Uruk-hai and a second army. Then the plan of the evil forces is easy: Saruman, believing he can gain the ring first, would betray and attack Rohan first, preparing for a big war marching to the Anduin river. As Saruman would expose himself, Gondor would answer Rohan's call, as Minas Thirith doesn't know that there is another danger nearer at Mordor. After some struggles and at least two battles, the union of men is victorious and they go to siege Isengard.
Having cut the good forces at half, Sauron would then move his orcs to the North. Elrond would try to make elves and dwarfs fight togheter, so he would summon the Council, trying both to forge a last last alliance and to convince Thorin to give up the ring. Obviously Elrond fails.

Being divided and without allies, Mirkwood would fall to the orc army. The forest would burn and even darker creatures would join Sauron's army. But, things will change!

During all this events (that would have lasted the time dividing The Hobbit to tLotR), a friendship between four strange characters would change the course of the events. Two men, an elf and a dwarf will travel all of this lands, and in the end, with Gandalf help, they will rise an united army in Lorièn. A very big battle happen, and the forces of evil are defeated... But it isn't enough. Sauron himself will travel to the north, and will duel with Thorin with the help of the Witch King, Nazgul against dwarf prince, Dark Lord against the King under the Mountain. Sauron would win and finally claiming the ring for himself, but the battle is lost, so he retires to Mordor again, where a even bigger army of both orcs and southern men is ready to fight.

The remaining of the good army would travel to Minas Thirith, where one last battle would decide the fate of Middle Earth. Here the city is taken by evil, but under the white tree Boromir will sacrifise himself (Sean Bean can't survive after all) to cut Sauron's finger again. Aragorn get the ring and kills Sauron for some time, and then, with the help of Gandalf and the eagles, they are able to destroy the ring and the Dark Lord once and for all.

Incoronation, marriage, end of the book.


This is obviously something stupid that I came up in like 10 minutes surely in a bad English; but I believe that a good writer/roleplayer can do anything and explain anything. It's fantasy, after all.

[Riftwolf]

Well, this is actually easy.


As abbandoning friends in need isn't very Gandalfish, I think that the group would go back to look for Bilbo. Then, as there were more dwarfs then wizards, one of them would eventually find Gollum, understand what happened and then kill the creature, claiming the ring. Surely the will of the rings would agree with me that a dwarf master is better then a hobbit one. Then out of the cave, Thorin would discover what happened and the one ring, and they would try to hide it from Gandalf (who still is too good to become a thief, and too afraid to take the ring for himself). The next logical conclusion would that the group would continue the mission, and when they will find impossible to kill Smaug without Bilbo, Thorin would use the power of the ring to rise some power to defeat the dragon. The book aren't really clear about the power of the One Ring, except for granting invisibility and preserving from old age, but everywhere has been said that the ring can be used to win war, so Thorin would find a way.

Then the dwarfs would found some kind of nation in the north with Thorin as their king, and they would rise an army. At the same time, Sauron would know that his ring has been found, so he would move to Mordor and begin rising his own army. Now Gondor isn't in the way, instead he would prepare a plan to invade Mirkwood. Sauron would try to make an alliance with Saruman, or better he would try to manipulate Saruman into it, and Isengard would start producing Uruk-hai and a second army. Then the plan of the evil forces is easy: Saruman, believing he can gain the ring first, would betray and attack Rohan first, preparing for a big war marching to the Anduin river. As Saruman would expose himself, Gondor would answer Rohan's call, as Minas Thirith doesn't know that there is another danger nearer at Mordor. After some struggles and at least two battles, the union of men is victorious and they go to siege Isengard.
Having cut the good forces at half, Sauron would then move his orcs to the North. Elrond would try to make elves and dwarfs fight togheter, so he would summon the Council, trying both to forge a last last alliance and to convince Thorin to give up the ring. Obviously Elrond fails.

Being divided and without allies, Mirkwood would fall to the orc army. The forest would burn and even darker creatures would join Sauron's army. But, things will change!

During all this events (that would have lasted the time dividing The Hobbit to tLotR), a friendship between four strange characters would change the course of the events. Two men, an elf and a dwarf will travel all of this lands, and in the end, with Gandalf help, they will rise an united army in Lorièn. A very big battle happen, and the forces of evil are defeated... But it isn't enough. Sauron himself will travel to the north, and will duel with Thorin with the help of the Witch King, Nazgul against dwarf prince, Dark Lord against the King under the Mountain. Sauron would win and finally claiming the ring for himself, but the battle is lost, so he retires to Mordor again, where a even bigger army of both orcs and southern men is ready to fight.

The remaining of the good army would travel to Minas Thirith, where one last battle would decide the fate of Middle Earth. Here the city is taken by evil, but under the white tree Boromir will sacrifise himself (Sean Bean can't survive after all) to cut Sauron's finger again. Aragorn get the ring and kills Sauron for some time, and then, with the help of Gandalf and the eagles, they are able to destroy the ring and the Dark Lord once and for all.

Incoronation, marriage, end of the book.


This is obviously something stupid that I came up in like 10 minutes surely in a bad English; but I believe that a good writer/roleplayer can do anything and explain anything. It's fantasy, after all.

I like this take, even if it's not strictly Tolkien in tone (Needs more Eagle, for a start)
A thought experiment I keep playing with is what the ending of LOTR would be if Shelob had eaten Gollum (in the book, I think its implied Gollum goes ahead of the hobbits to beg Shelob for assistance in killing them? It's been a while since I read the whole thing).

[Rrmcklin]

We do know that his "death" was not well received and that Girard wished that Soon had died. Plus we know that Soon was calling for the Gate to be sealed even though he and Kraagor were not safely away.

Soon was the cause of many or seemly all of the party's stated problems, like the ones of bad feeling and stuff in the time the Scribblers spent as a group. I don't see that those issues boil to a problem without the death of beloved figure invoking grief at the same time.

Given that we see members of the Scribblers ready to fight each other (Soon vs Girard and Dorukon), I don't think you will end up with that happening if Soon died instead of Kraagor.

Given what happens here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), I don't think that occurs with Kraagor if he is alive. Looks like to me that the problems and such that caused the Scribblers to break up with directly related to Soon.

also the few comics after this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html)

Given that we've only seen the end have basically know idea about the middle, claiming Soon was the cause of all of their problems seem to be ignoring the actual context of what they were fighting about.

While it's a pretty safe bet that Girard already highly disliked Soon beforehand (because Girard was irrationally paranoid and hated any sort of authority), we have no real for anyone's opinion of Soon before the breakdown.

For that matter, mourning Kraagor's death does not mean he was more beloved than Soon, not in this context anyway. To use the Order for example, I'm certain that Elan would mourn Belkar's death, but that by itself does not indicate that Elan was closer to Belkar than he was... anyone else on the team.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, this is actually easy.


As abbandoning friends in need isn't very Gandalfish, I think that the group would go back to look for Bilbo. Then, as there were more dwarfs then wizards, one of them would eventually find Gollum, understand what happened and then kill the creature, claiming the ring. Surely the will of the rings would agree with me that a dwarf master is better then a hobbit one. Then out of the cave, Thorin would discover what happened and the one ring, and they would try to hide it from Gandalf (who still is too good to become a thief, and too afraid to take the ring for himself). The next logical conclusion would that the group would continue the mission, and when they will find impossible to kill Smaug without Bilbo, Thorin would use the power of the ring to rise some power to defeat the dragon. The book aren't really clear about the power of the One Ring, except for granting invisibility and preserving from old age, but everywhere has been said that the ring can be used to win war, so Thorin would find a way.

Then the dwarfs would found some kind of nation in the north with Thorin as their king, and they would rise an army. At the same time, Sauron would know that his ring has been found, so he would move to Mordor and begin rising his own army. Now Gondor isn't in the way, instead he would prepare a plan to invade Mirkwood. Sauron would try to make an alliance with Saruman, or better he would try to manipulate Saruman into it, and Isengard would start producing Uruk-hai and a second army. Then the plan of the evil forces is easy: Saruman, believing he can gain the ring first, would betray and attack Rohan first, preparing for a big war marching to the Anduin river. As Saruman would expose himself, Gondor would answer Rohan's call, as Minas Thirith doesn't know that there is another danger nearer at Mordor. After some struggles and at least two battles, the union of men is victorious and they go to siege Isengard.
Having cut the good forces at half, Sauron would then move his orcs to the North. Elrond would try to make elves and dwarfs fight togheter, so he would summon the Council, trying both to forge a last last alliance and to convince Thorin to give up the ring. Obviously Elrond fails.

Being divided and without allies, Mirkwood would fall to the orc army. The forest would burn and even darker creatures would join Sauron's army. But, things will change!

During all this events (that would have lasted the time dividing The Hobbit to tLotR), a friendship between four strange characters would change the course of the events. Two men, an elf and a dwarf will travel all of this lands, and in the end, with Gandalf help, they will rise an united army in Lorièn. A very big battle happen, and the forces of evil are defeated... But it isn't enough. Sauron himself will travel to the north, and will duel with Thorin with the help of the Witch King, Nazgul against dwarf prince, Dark Lord against the King under the Mountain. Sauron would win and finally claiming the ring for himself, but the battle is lost, so he retires to Mordor again, where a even bigger army of both orcs and southern men is ready to fight.

The remaining of the good army would travel to Minas Thirith, where one last battle would decide the fate of Middle Earth. Here the city is taken by evil, but under the white tree Boromir will sacrifise himself (Sean Bean can't survive after all) to cut Sauron's finger again. Aragorn get the ring and kills Sauron for some time, and then, with the help of Gandalf and the eagles, they are able to destroy the ring and the Dark Lord once and for all.

Incoronation, marriage, end of the book.


This is obviously something stupid that I came up in like 10 minutes surely in a bad English; but I believe that a good writer/roleplayer can do anything and explain anything. It's fantasy, after all. Many years ago I read a fan fiction that described what would have happened if The Eldest (Tom Bombadil) had decided to keep the ring safe in his forests. The ending was a bit grimmer than yours. Thanks for your story, though, it was fun to read.

[CountDVB]

Given that we've only seen the end have basically know idea about the middle, claiming Soon was the cause of all of their problems seem to be ignoring the actual context of what they were fighting about.

While it's a pretty safe bet that Girard already highly disliked Soon beforehand (because Girard was irrationally paranoid and hated any sort of authority), we have no real for anyone's opinion of Soon before the breakdown.

For that matter, mourning Kraagor's death does not mean he was more beloved than Soon, not in this context anyway. To use the Order for example, I'm certain that Elan would mourn Belkar's death, but that by itself does not indicate that Elan was closer to Belkar than he was... anyone else on the team.

Soon does bear more responsibility, but that is because he was the leader. The clashes between everyone seemed to be influenced by their moral alignment. Soon was the only Lawful one we know. Lirian and Dorukan were both Neutral Good while Girard was Chaotic Neutral and we don’t don know Serini or Kraagor. The former is possibly Chaotic Goood and the latter is non-Lawful (unless Kraagor is revealed to have some sort of homebrew Barbarian like prestige class that is available to Lawful folk). But I digress.

The ending of something is often a large framing device for the totality of their experience. It’s why narratives with bad endings we feel ruins the story. Endings influence the overall story and memories of that.

The others became bitter with Soon because his devotion to the “mission” outweighed their lives while he was their leader. Hence why Dorukan made the comment about avenging his wife over the safety of his allies. They perceived Soon’s “greater good” mentality as a callous act because Kraagor died as a result.

But that was because Kraagor died. Soon dying changes everything.

He was their leader and while they all may have had their grievances with him, he was still their comrade and leader. And him dying meant no one else did. He made sure everyone else was safe. Often times as a leader, you gotta make tough calls on who to sacrifice here. But here, by chance or by impulse, the only life sacrificed was his own. He died the way he lived, by that devotion to a duty. Following through on what it means to be a Paladin.

He made the call and paid for it, but thanks to him, everyone is safe except for him. That sort of impact would Be heavy on them, even on Girard.

Even as they may go their own Gates to tend, Kraagor’s would be where Soon died, having a profound impact.

[Rrmcklin]

Soon does bear more responsibility, but that is because he was the leader. The clashes between everyone seemed to be influenced by their moral alignment. Soon was the only Lawful one we know. Lirian and Dorukan were both Neutral Good while Girard was Chaotic Neutral and we don’t don know Serini or Kraagor. The former is possibly Chaotic Goood and the latter is non-Lawful (unless Kraagor is revealed to have some sort of homebrew Barbarian like prestige class that is available to Lawful folk). But I digress.

The ending of something is often a large framing device for the totality of their experience. It’s why narratives with bad endings we feel ruins the story. Endings influence the overall story and memories of that.

The others became bitter with Soon because his devotion to the “mission” outweighed their lives while he was their leader. Hence why Dorukan made the comment about avenging his wife over the safety of his allies. They perceived Soon’s “greater good” mentality as a callous act because Kraagor died as a result.

But that was because Kraagor died. Soon dying changes everything.

He was their leader and while they all may have had their grievances with him, he was still their comrade and leader. And him dying meant no one else did. He made sure everyone else was safe. Often times as a leader, you gotta make tough calls on who to sacrifice here. But here, by chance or by impulse, the only life sacrificed was his own. He died the way he lived, by that devotion to a duty. Following through on what it means to be a Paladin.

He made the call and paid for it, but thanks to him, everyone is safe except for him. That sort of impact would Be heavy on them, even on Girard.

Even as they may go their own Gates to tend, Kraagor’s would be where Soon died, having a profound impact.

This is a fair point, I was just pointing out the issue with presuming the end result was saw tells us everything about their relationships, and that nothing changes if you change that result. Everyone mourning Kragor does not necessarily mean he was "beloved" anymore than the eventual mourning of Belkar (which I'm certain will happen) will indicate that he generally was (I thought Kragor was anywhere near as bad a Belkar, but that's irrelevant for the point). Similarly, if part of the issue with Soon is the others blamed him for Kragor's death, then take that away and there's no reason to assume that no one would care. Girard might be fine with it but, again, Girard was overly paranoid and spiteful towards authority in general so that doesn't tell us much.

[Thecommander236]

I think the major issue is where the Sapphire Guard came from. There must've been Paladins besides Soon. With Kraagor alive, he would've claimed the Gate closest to his homeland. Serini would've taken Soon's Gate in that case. She would've made Soon's Gate according to his strength. The Guard was named after the paladins' "guard" of the "sapphire". There's no guarantee that Soon dying would erase the Guard from existence.

The point of Divergence is if The Order of the Scribble would've broken up if Soon wasn't there to be the scapegoat for Kraagor's death. The thing is, yes they would have. They would all go back home and agree to guard the gates. The difference being that there may have been less hostility and no "non-interference" clause involved. They weren't all going to live in the same house after the adventure regardless of any personal breaks occurring or not occurring between them.

My guess is when Sereni took Soon's Gate, she would get an Order of Paladins together and get them to swear to protect it, maybe multiclass into paladin as she suggested. They would then declared themselves the Guardians of the Sapphire Gate or the Sapphire Guard. Then Soon's Gate would be more pragmatic and maybe have a few more tricks then the current Stickverse one. Given the Lawful nature of the Guard, the tricks would be more like "divine trap" level similar to Lirian's magic removing disease kinda deal. Like someone evil approaching the Gate would get zapped by Protect from Evil spells or something and there would be multiple fake Sapphire Gates throughout the city.

Like the throne room wouldn't be where the Gate was. The throne room would be in a different part of the city and that Sapphire would be a decoy. The actual Gate would be hidden in a secret room within a library full of Guard's secrets or something. The Library of Secrets would another place no one would question is heavily guarded. It would be considered a Holy Place or something. One of the books would claim the Gate was in the throne room as a misdirect. Something along those lines.

[InvisibleBison]

The point of Divergence is if The Order of the Scribble would've broken up if Soon wasn't there to be the scapegoat for Kraagor's death. The thing is, yes they would have.

Why do you think this would happen? It's kind of the foundation of your theories, and you don't provide any reasoning to back it up.



I think the major issue is where the Sapphire Guard came from.

Soon created the Sapphire Guard from "the noblest samurai" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) of Azure city.



With Kraagor alive, he would've claimed the Gate closest to his homeland. Serini would've taken Soon's Gate in that case.

Not necessarily. With Soon dead and Kraagor alive, we have no idea who ends up with which gate, as we have no information about where anyone's homeland is. It could very well be that in this scenario no one gets the same gate that they did in the actual comic.

[hamishspence]

Lirian's gate in the "elven homelands" being close to where Lirian lives is implied.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html


While I'd agree that "we each take the one closest to our homeland" might get thrown off a little with Soon dead and Kraagor alive:


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html


I think it's plausible that Girard came from the Western Continent not too far away from the desert Gate, and that Dorukan came from the Northern continent not too far from Redmountain hills, and that Kraagor came from even further north - the "Dwarven homelands" - same general area that Durkon came from.

[Thecommander236]

Why do you think this would happen? It's kind of the foundation of your theories, and you don't provide any reasoning to back it up.

Soon created the Sapphire Guard from "the noblest samurai" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) of Azure city.

Not necessarily. With Soon dead and Kraagor alive, we have no idea who ends up with which gate, as we have no information about where anyone's homeland is. It could very well be that in this scenario no one gets the same gate that they did in the actual comic.

We don't really know what his job was before he became an adventurer. Was he an adviser, a guard, a ruler, he mentions having to got back to check in or go back to whatever organization he was part of right before his wife was killed by the Snarl.

[hamishspence]

We don't really know what his job was before he became an adventurer.We know he wasn't the ruler - we specifically see him handing over the Sapphire to the actual ruler - Ronjo. And War & XPs (end of the book notes on Azure City) mentions that the then-ruler Ronjo, Shojo's father, constructed the castle.

We also know that he was "on a diplomatic mission to the elven lands" so at least one of his jobs was diplomat.

[Riftwolf]

Just had a thought: even if Soon died and Kraagor survived, the comic would still be about the Order of the Stick and they'd still be fighting Xykon. Eugene's blood feud predates Redcloak meeting Xykon, certainly before Xykon went after Lirians Gate. And Xykon has mentioned that those villains who give up are losers; he'd have found some way of continuing his existence, even if the other options he listed were worse (Xykon as a vampire probably wouldn't enjoy the process as much as he'd like, Dorian Grey immortality would work but leaves him with a more fragile version of his phylactery, and brain-jar seems like a last choice for anyone). Hell, it might still be about Xykon trying to use the Gates, but without the Web of Lies that Redcloak made.
So, if Soon fell, the comic would be slightly simpler, and that's about it.

[InvisibleBison]

And Xykon has mentioned that those villains who give up are losers; he'd have found some way of continuing his existence, even if the other options he listed were worse

I don't know about this. The statement you're quoting seems like it's at least in part him trying to justify to himself why the downsides of becoming a lich are worthwhile. Certainly he doesn't express any such sentiments before becoming a lich. And if he really had always believed this, why would he have waited so long to achieve immortality? He was already venerable when he met Redcloak; he could have dropped dead any day.

[Shadowknight12]

I don't know about this. The statement you're quoting seems like it's at least in part him trying to justify to himself why the downsides of becoming a lich are worthwhile. Certainly he doesn't express any such sentiments before becoming a lich. And if he really had always believed this, why would he have waited so long to achieve immortality? He was already venerable when he met Redcloak; he could have dropped dead any day.

Conversely, he admits in SoD he's been thinking about his age and mortality and wants to do something big, that's why he stops to randomly nuke the paladins in the swamp. It's possible at that point he hadn't begun preparing any immortality things because he hadn't realized how old he truly was, or how little time he had left.

[CountDVB]

I think the major issue is where the Sapphire Guard came from. There must've been Paladins besides Soon. With Kraagor alive, he would've claimed the Gate closest to his homeland. Serini would've taken Soon's Gate in that case. She would've made Soon's Gate according to his strength. The Guard was named after the paladins' "guard" of the "sapphire". There's no guarantee that Soon dying would erase the Guard from existence.

The point of Divergence is if The Order of the Scribble would've broken up if Soon wasn't there to be the scapegoat for Kraagor's death. The thing is, yes they would have. They would all go back home and agree to guard the gates. The difference being that there may have been less hostility and no "non-interference" clause involved. They weren't all going to live in the same house after the adventure regardless of any personal breaks occurring or not occurring between them.

My guess is when Sereni took Soon's Gate, she would get an Order of Paladins together and get them to swear to protect it, maybe multiclass into paladin as she suggested. They would then declared themselves the Guardians of the Sapphire Gate or the Sapphire Guard. Then Soon's Gate would be more pragmatic and maybe have a few more tricks then the current Stickverse one. Given the Lawful nature of the Guard, the tricks would be more like "divine trap" level similar to Lirian's magic removing disease kinda deal. Like someone evil approaching the Gate would get zapped by Protect from Evil spells or something and there would be multiple fake Sapphire Gates throughout the city.

Like the throne room wouldn't be where the Gate was. The throne room would be in a different part of the city and that Sapphire would be a decoy. The actual Gate would be hidden in a secret room within a library full of Guard's secrets or something. The Library of Secrets would another place no one would question is heavily guarded. It would be considered a Holy Place or something. One of the books would claim the Gate was in the throne room as a misdirect. Something along those lines.

I'm guessing that she would've handled it like Kraagor's tomb and have it be a multi-layered one. One have it be a group of truly righteous Paladins, people who Serini know would be like Soon and could walk the walk as good if better. As for what the Gate would be disguised as, it would have to be something not questioned though given the presence of Paladins, it could be a large Mausoleum for fallen Paladins. A giant memorial hall for the fallen with a large statue of Soon and holding the Sapphire, the deadbolt of the Gate.

I imagine Serine would've heard or figured ot the positive energy spirit trick and used that as part of the defense.

Meanwhile, there would be a level of deception to deter people who aren't truly righteous. People like Gin-Jun or the nobles. Given how Serini would be more pragmatic in handling that than Soon, it would mean most of the Sapphire Guard would not be filled with the biases or troubles as the one here. They'd likely be defensive rather than pro-active.

[Thecommander236]

I'm guessing that she would've handled it like Kraagor's tomb and have it be a multi-layered one. One have it be a group of truly righteous Paladins, people who Serini know would be like Soon and could walk the walk as good if better. As for what the Gate would be disguised as, it would have to be something not questioned though given the presence of Paladins, it could be a large Mausoleum for fallen Paladins. A giant memorial hall for the fallen with a large statue of Soon and holding the Sapphire, the deadbolt of the Gate.

I imagine Serine would've heard or figured ot the positive energy spirit trick and used that as part of the defense.

Meanwhile, there would be a level of deception to deter people who aren't truly righteous. People like Gin-Jun or the nobles. Given how Serini would be more pragmatic in handling that than Soon, it would mean most of the Sapphire Guard would not be filled with the biases or troubles as the one here. They'd likely be defensive rather than pro-active.

My thoughts exactly. I have to wonder, though, if the Guard would become as self-righteously insane with or without Soon. Serini would probably still retire unless she did become a Paladin in which case she would have to follow through with her oath to protect the gate. If Serini stayed as a Paladin, the Guard wouldn't be driven mad by fanatics more than likely.

[Shadowknight12]

My thoughts exactly. I have to wonder, though, if the Guard would become as self-righteously insane with or without Soon. Serini would probably still retire unless she did become a Paladin in which case she would have to follow through with her oath to protect the gate. If Serini stayed as a Paladin, the Guard wouldn't be driven mad by fanatics more than likely.

I don't think the Sapphire Guard would have massacred monsters under Serini's guidance, but perhaps Kraagor's group might have.

[Thecommander236]

I don't think the Sapphire Guard would have massacred monsters under Serini's guidance, but perhaps Kraagor's group might have.

Unrelated, but what confuses me is why Redcloak states that Kraagor killed hundreds of Goblins. How could he know that? Were the Goblins trying to claim the rifts before the Gates were made? We know the Dark One discovered the rifts when one of his priests fell into one, but why would he try to capture a rift before a Gate was placed on it? You would think he would wait until the rifts were sealed before sending his minions in and Kraagor died before the final rift was sealed. If he went for the rifts before they were all sealed, then why didn't he capture one? The entire Order of the Scribble had to travel to the next rift in line, leaving the sealed rifts virtually undefended. We don't know the nature of the guards they left in their wake, but something tells me an army of goblins may have been enough to take a Gate before the Order of the Scribble returned to fortify them.

Even if Kraagor did kill hundreds of Goblins, he was erased from the history books and I don't see why the Red Mantle would include a detail about Kraagor being a mass murderer of goblins. Seems like useless info to me. I just assume Redcloak is biased and assumes that Kraagor must've been a Goblin killer just because he was high level and goblins are exp fodder. However, maybe Kraagor was cool with goblins and just farmed exp from Kobolds or something.

That being said, we don't know if Kraagor would form a warrior band of barbarians to protect his gate. He may have done exactly what Serini did and just filled the Dungeon with a crap ton of monsters.

[Shadowknight12]

Even if Kraagor did kill hundreds of Goblins, he was erased from the history books and I don't see why the Red Mantle would include a detail about Kraagor being a mass murderer of goblins.

Redcloak assumes Durkon killed a lot of goblins too, so I am assuming this is Redcloak just assuming dwarves kill a lot of goblins. Whether this is dwarf-specific or a general view of all PC races (or perhaps "all PC races who go out and adventure"), I am uncertain. It's possible Redcloak assumed that in order for Kraagor to reach epic levels, "he must have killed hundreds of goblins".

[hamishspence]

Unrelated, but what confuses me is why Redcloak states that Kraagor killed hundreds of Goblins. How could he know that? Were the Goblins trying to claim the rifts before the Gates were made?

That's what the crayon strips in SOD show, yes.


We know the Dark One discovered the rifts when one of his priests fell into one, but why would he try to capture a rift before a Gate was placed on it? You would think he would wait until the rifts were sealed before sending his minions in and Kraagor died before the final rift was sealed. If he went for the rifts before they were all sealed, then why didn't he capture one? The entire Order of the Scribble had to travel to the next rift in line, leaving the sealed rifts virtually undefended. We don't know the nature of the guards they left in their wake, but something tells me an army of goblins may have been enough to take a Gate before the Order of the Scribble returned to fortify them.

Even if Kraagor did kill hundreds of Goblins, he was erased from the history books and I don't see why the Red Mantle would include a detail about Kraagor being a mass murderer of goblins. Seems like useless info to me.

Given how surprised Redcloak was in SOD:

about there being multiple rifts and Gates,


we know that the Mantle doesn't tell its bearer "There are multiple rifts".

It seems to me plausible, that the "hundreds of goblins killed" were during that first big battle for the first rift. That Bearer of the Mantle had raised an army to seize the rift, after all.

[Thecommander236]

That's what the crayon strips in SOD show, yes.



Given how surprised Redcloak was in SOD:

about there being multiple rifts and Gates,


we know that the Mantle doesn't tell its bearer "There are multiple rifts".

It seems to me plausible, that the "hundreds of goblins killed" were during that first big battle for the first rift. That Bearer of the Mantle had raised an army to seize the rift, after all.

The problem with that theory is that the first and second bearers of the Red Mantle and the 3rd as well (if that was Redcloak's mentor) were all killed by the Sapphire Guard. That's also mentioned in SoD. The Gate they knew about was Lirian's, so they must not have made a play for the Gates before the Order of the Scribble established full control over them. The Goblins wouldn't just randomly attack Lirian for the Gate without being led by the Bearer (since they wouldn't know about the Gate in the first place) and the Sapphire Guard would not have fought to protect Lirian's gate because of their oath.

[Wildstag]

To chime in with my two cents, we'd be worse off. None of the other Scribblers seemed to have been interested in active defense, solely passive defense.

In addition, Serini's mindset seems clear: she would not target the Goblins for their deity's "reject the status quo" goal. She would likely oppose the use of the Gates, but she would not have waged war with them in the way the Sapphire Guard did. This would have led to a stronger force of Goblins, one with relatively more peace time to prepare for advancement upon the Gates. Soon was the only one that we know of that went out of his way to both erect defenses and targeted the enemies actively after settling down.

That being said, Kraagor would have probably erected some "Strength Above All" kinda defense, in a manner similar to Kord's realm in Planescape. The strong would gather to test their mettle and inadvertently keep foes like Xykon in check.

Lastly, Redcloak would not have a personal grudge against Paladins, but he still would want TDO's plan finished. Serini wouldn't seek out others to aid her, and Kraagor probably wouldn't either. The OotS would still be in it for Xykon reasons, and that would necessitate a different kind of Xykon. A Lolful Evil Xykon just wouldn't work in such a story.

[InvisibleBison]

The problem with that theory is that the first and second bearers of the Red Mantle and the 3rd as well (if that was Redcloak's mentor) were all killed by the Sapphire Guard. That's also mentioned in SoD. The Gate they knew about was Lirian's, so they must not have made a play for the Gates before the Order of the Scribble established full control over them. The Goblins wouldn't just randomly attack Lirian for the Gate without being led by the Bearer (since they wouldn't know about the Gate in the first place) and the Sapphire Guard would not have fought to protect Lirian's gate because of their oath.

They would not have gone to Lirian's gate, but it's entirely possible they could have fought the goblins before the goblins reached Lirian's Gate. It's also possible that the Sapphire Guard killed the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle after he was defeated at Lirian's Gate.

[hamishspence]

The problem with that theory is that the first and second bearers of the Red Mantle and the 3rd as well (if that was Redcloak's mentor) were all killed by the Sapphire Guard. That's also mentioned in SoD. The Gate they knew about was Lirian's, so they must not have made a play for the Gates before the Order of the Scribble established full control over them. The Goblins wouldn't just randomly attack Lirian for the Gate without being led by the Bearer (since they wouldn't know about the Gate in the first place) and the Sapphire Guard would not have fought to protect Lirian's gate because of their oath.

Nope - the first bearer of the Crimson Mantle was not killed by the Sapphire Guard, they were killed by the Order of the Scribble:

Specifically, the crayon strips show Kraagor landing the killing blow on the first Bearer of the Crimson Mantle.

Subsequent bearers were killed by the Sapphire Guard. Probably while they were on the Eastern Continent trying to raise an army before crossing to the Western continent.

The picture shown here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

of Sapphire Guard members killing goblins - including one in a purplish-red cloak - represents that they kill anyone, anywhere, who threatens any gate, if they can - they just don't go near gates besides their own, themselves.

[CountDVB]

To chime in with my two cents, we'd be worse off. None of the other Scribblers seemed to have been interested in active defense, solely passive defense.

In addition, Serini's mindset seems clear: she would not target the Goblins for their deity's "reject the status quo" goal. She would likely oppose the use of the Gates, but she would not have waged war with them in the way the Sapphire Guard did. This would have led to a stronger force of Goblins, one with relatively more peace time to prepare for advancement upon the Gates. Soon was the only one that we know of that went out of his way to both erect defenses and targeted the enemies actively after settling down.

That being said, Kraagor would have probably erected some "Strength Above All" kinda defense, in a manner similar to Kord's realm in Planescape. The strong would gather to test their mettle and inadvertently keep foes like Xykon in check.

Lastly, Redcloak would not have a personal grudge against Paladins, but he still would want TDO's plan finished. Serini wouldn't seek out others to aid her, and Kraagor probably wouldn't either. The OotS would still be in it for Xykon reasons, and that would necessitate a different kind of Xykon. A Lolful Evil Xykon just wouldn't work in such a story.

Mind you, the only reason the army of Team Evil succeeded in taking Lirian's gate was because of Xykon's lichdom allowing him to become much more dangerous. And from what was said previously, that was the only Gate they were aware of, at least before she accidentally spilled the beans there.

Though after Serini makes Soon's Mausoleum, she'll go off on her own after Lord Ronjo gets everything arranged. Based on the timeline stuff Soon here would die around 1119-1120 (taking the place of Kraagor). Lord Ronjo would be in charge and Lord Shojo was already a child. Serini would likely work with Ronjo to guard it though her rogue savviness would mean she would not trust the nobles. However, her wanting to maintain the ideal of the paladin because it would be how Soon was, have the Sapphire Guard consist more of people/paladins who can pass a certain test or from the common folk or something like that. Make it so the Guard can only act defensively and out of the hands of the nobility or anyone who can try and misdirect them.

However, active threats remain, especially since she would note the Crimson Mantle of the goblins as something to look out for. Ronjo could still perhaps create a task force for this, albeit one seperate from the Sapphire Guard (using the nobles or perhap rogues inspired by her). This would still create potential conflict down the line. Even if Ronjo wasn't told of the Crimson Mantle, it's possible it may be told by one of the clerics from their gods about it.

As such, the hunt for the Crimson Mantle may still yield the rise of Redcloak and perhaps he still meets Xykon, who's looking to make a mark in his old age. This may still lead to the fall of Lirian's Gate, though the fall of Lirian's Gate would concern the othes there and perhaps try to find a way to find out what happened. And then if they found out something happent to Dorukan, then things get further interesting

[CountDVB]

Nope - the first bearer of the Crimson Mantle was not killed by the Sapphire Guard, they were killed by the Order of the Scribble:

Specifically, the crayon strips show Kraagor landing the killing blow on the first Bearer of the Crimson Mantle.

Subsequent bearers were killed by the Sapphire Guard. Probably while they were on the Eastern Continent trying to raise an army before crossing to the Western continent.

The picture shown here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

of Sapphire Guard members killing goblins - including one in a purplish-red cloak - represents that they kill anyone, anywhere, who threatens any gate, if they can - they just don't go near gates besides their own, themselves.

Now I’m wondering if the focus of Redcloak may focus on Kraagor’s legacy rather than Soon’s. While we know little of Kraagor or his relationship with his dwarves kin, I could see him recruiting more... ahonorable dwarves for his cause and rally that while they weren’t exactly honorabke, their dedication to protecting the Gate could allow them to do so in their way.

So perhaps we’d have bands of roaming dwarves striking threats to the Gate with force, including Redcloak’s village, especially if Kraagor remembers slaying the first wearer of the Crimson Mantle