Tasha's ASI change... is Trance worth losing +1 ASI?

[Theodoxus]

I was looking over Half-Elves vs Elves for a character concept (essentially getting a cantrip at 1st level and the ways to get it) and the basic difference between the two (outside of skills - irrelevant if swapping for a cantrip) and the +2/+1/+1 vs +2/+1 was Trance and weapon profs.

The weapon profs also became irrelevant because the character will be a Tempest Cleric. So, that left Trance. Which got me thinking, how often is Trance actually portrayed at tables? Most of the time, from my experience, it ends up Elves and Constructs get more watches. If you don't have either, everyone participates in watches. If you have them, then either everyone sans the mortally wounded take a turn, usually doubling up, or there are at lease two elves (or constructs, or combination), then the elves split 4 hour watches and everyone else gets a long rest...

99% of the time, it's all handwaved anyway. IF the DM doesn't have a specific encounter planned for the rest, they might roll a die to make it look suspenseful but nothing happens...

So, everything else being equal (you don't need the weapon profs or extra skill - who doesn't take Perception?) is Half-elf just hands down better now that you can move the +2 off Cha to anywhere you want?

I get that +2/+2 from Mdwarves is talked about a lot - it's unique and useful for a lot of builds, but I haven't seen much discussion on the +2/+1/+1 or even Half-elves vs full Elves for that matter...

I ultimately picked High Elf in the end, but only because this particular character will probably only see play in AL, and I don't think the H-Elf variants are allowed given that SCAG is now out of favor with AL - at least that was my impression when looking at the Season 10 player rules.

[Dork_Forge]

I was looking over Half-Elves vs Elves for a character concept (essentially getting a cantrip at 1st level and the ways to get it) and the basic difference between the two (outside of skills - irrelevant if swapping for a cantrip) and the +2/+1/+1 vs +2/+1 was Trance and weapon profs.

The weapon profs also became irrelevant because the character will be a Tempest Cleric. So, that left Trance. Which got me thinking, how often is Trance actually portrayed at tables? Most of the time, from my experience, it ends up Elves and Constructs get more watches. If you don't have either, everyone participates in watches. If you have them, then either everyone sans the mortally wounded take a turn, usually doubling up, or there are at lease two elves (or constructs, or combination), then the elves split 4 hour watches and everyone else gets a long rest...

99% of the time, it's all handwaved anyway. IF the DM doesn't have a specific encounter planned for the rest, they might roll a die to make it look suspenseful but nothing happens...

So, everything else being equal (you don't need the weapon profs or extra skill - who doesn't take Perception?) is Half-elf just hands down better now that you can move the +2 off Cha to anywhere you want?

I get that +2/+2 from Mdwarves is talked about a lot - it's unique and useful for a lot of builds, but I haven't seen much discussion on the +2/+1/+1 or even Half-elves vs full Elves for that matter...

I ultimately picked High Elf in the end, but only because this particular character will probably only see play in AL, and I don't think the H-Elf variants are allowed given that SCAG is now out of favor with AL - at least that was my impression when looking at the Season 10 player rules.

I think Half Elf scores are better in general than MD, the ability to round up two secondary scores is great for more MAD character concepts (or just a concept where you think 'this character should be smarter than this') where as MD is better for doubling down on two stats are freeing up the 2nd ASI for feats.

Half Elf vs High Elf, the Half Elf wins for me based on the stats and free skill, if variants are on the table then it's an easy choice. In AL I'd still probably go Half Elf unless i was single classing a typical Wizard.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The weapon profs also became irrelevant because the character will be a Tempest Cleric.

Hold up! If you're using Tasha's origin customization anyway, those turn into four tool proficiencies. With the expanded tool proficiency benefits in Xanathar's, this is too significant to overlook.

[Damon_Tor]

Yes, the bitter irony behind the Tasha's changes is that is led to the absolute racial superiority of mountain dwarves and half elves. It had been the case that other races were better at certain tasks, but now mountain dwarves and half elves are simply ubermensch. Which is kind of funny considering their stated objectives for the Tasha's changes were to impose anti-racist values into D&D.

[HPisBS]

It had been the case that other races were better at certain tasks, but now mountain dwarves and half elves are simply ubermensch. Which is kind of funny considering their stated objectives for the Tasha's changes were to impose "anti-racist" values into D&D.

How fitting.

[Zhorn]

While Custom Lineage is just a repeat of Variant Human (if slightly more versatile), it was alright on its own for filling in the gaps of races that don't have official 5e versions, especially since it has the trade-off of not being of a specific race (ie; Custom Lineage Dwarf is not a Dwarf mechanically).
The Customizing Your Origin section of Tasha's for swapping about pretty much everything though is just a mess.

Yes, the bitter irony behind the Tasha's changes is that is led to the absolute racial superiority of mountain dwarves and half elves. It had been the case that other races were better at certain tasks, but now mountain dwarves and half elves are simply ubermensch. Which is kind of funny considering their stated objectives for the Tasha's changes were to impose anti-racist values into D&D.
Funny considering the fix about negative stereotypes of racial/species/ancestry groups could have been fixed purely on a narrative level. I know not everyone is a Critical Role fan, but the example of comparing Drow from Faerun/Toril to the Kryn from Wildemount/Exandria is a perfect fix. Different settings have different takes on their cultures. No need to turn mechanical sets into a formless goop where mathematical superiority across the board emerges and identity is meaningless.

[LudicSavant]

Objection!

It’s not about “+1 ASI vs Trance.” In the specific case you’re looking at (High Elf) it’s about +1 to a tertiary stat vs 5 swappable proficiencies and Trance as a cherry on top.

In a post-Tasha’s world High Elves are a pretty solid choice for those looking to grab Booming Blade + Elven Accuracy on a non-Wizard class.


Hold up! If you're using Tasha's origin customization anyway, those turn into four tool proficiencies. With the expanded tool proficiency benefits in Xanathar's, this is too significant to overlook.

Yeah.

First thing is that there are some *very* powerful elf subraces that Half-Elves cannot mirror (like Eladrin, Shadar-Kai, or Mark of Shadow). All of which are arguably better than any kind of Half-Elf for a wide variety of builds.

But let’s put those aside for a moment and say we’re only comparing, say, a High Elf to a Half-High Elf.

In this case, the High Elf has +1 skill proficiency, +4 tool proficiencies, *and* Trance in exchange for +1 to a tertiary stat (which is not equivalent in value to a full +1 ASI — if it were, then nonvariant human would be the best race rather than one of the worst).

So the tradeoff isn’t “+1 ASI vs Trance” to begin with. You might take it sometimes, when you don’t really need a tertiary +1 (sometimes it just doesn’t fit into the statline) and want 5 more proficiencies (plus Trance as a side note).


Yes, the bitter irony behind the Tasha's changes is that is led to the absolute racial superiority of mountain dwarves and half elves. It had been the case that other races were better at certain tasks, but now mountain dwarves and half elves are simply ubermensch. Which is kind of funny considering their stated objectives for the Tasha's changes were to impose anti-racist values into D&D.

This isn’t the case. Half-Elves aren’t any more “ubermensch” than they were for Cha-based classes prior to Tasha’s release.

Plenty of races are competitive with Half-Elves. And comparisons like “Drow vs Half-Drow” existed well before Tasha’s did anything.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

What sounds like more fun? You can be 5% better at something or have trance.

In one campaign the party let my wood elf bard and our not trustworthy drow rogue somehow always shared watch. It led to lots of shennanigans.

[Mikal]

What sounds like more fun? You can be 5% better at something or have trance.

In one campaign the party let my wood elf bard and our not trustworthy drow rogue somehow always shared watch. It led to lots of shennanigans.

Honestly? Being 5% better at something. I can either need slightly less sleep or I can be inherently better at something I want to be good at.

But I wouldn’t have to worry about it- the custom rules are hot garbage and have a blanket ban at my table and the game i play in. Because physiological and mental species differences are not cultural.

[mangosta71]

High Elf also gets a cantrip, which can be substantial. Mage Hand is great utility for lots of people, as in Minor Illusion. Any melee class that only gets one attack benefits from Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade. And if you're Int-based, you can grab another element to help avoid resistances.

[HPisBS]

... Any melee class that only gets one attack benefits from Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade.

"Any" melee class? You mean Rogue? lol The only other "melee classes" with just one attack would be gish builds. Or am I forgetting something?

[BoxANT]

"Any" melee class? You mean Rogue? lol The only other "melee classes" with just one attack would be gish builds. Or am I forgetting something?

clerics (ie. tempest, war, forge)

[Theodoxus]

clerics (ie. tempest, war, forge)

Yeah, the build in question is for Tempest Cleric to maximize the thunder damage from BB. So, just one attack a round, Now, does BB trigger Divine Strike? DS says "hit with a weapon attack", BB says "make a melee attack" and "on a hit, the target suffers the weapon attack's normal effects..." So, if yes, then at 8th level, that would be 1d8 Warhammer, +1d8 BB, +1d8 DS. Which also begs the question, if I use the Destructive Wrath CD on that attack, does it maximize both BB and DS, or do I pick one? And, thirdly, does it affect the BB if the target moves and triggers it?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yeah, the build in question is for Tempest Cleric to maximize the thunder damage from BB. So, just one attack a round, Now, does BB trigger Divine Strike? DS says "hit with a weapon attack", BB says "make a melee attack" and "on a hit, the target suffers the weapon attack's normal effects..." So, if yes, then at 8th level, that would be 1d8 Warhammer, +1d8 BB, +1d8 DS. Which also begs the question, if I use the Destructive Wrath CD on that attack, does it maximize both BB and DS, or do I pick one? And, thirdly, does it affect the BB if the target moves and triggers it?

"When you roll lightning or thunder damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage, instead of rolling."

If you hit with the attack, it can be assumed that you roll all the damage together (weapon, BB, DS), so that would be a single roll of the thunder damage. If the target later moves and triggers BB, that's a separate roll, and won't be maxed unless you use DW again.

[Kane0]

I happen to really like Trance. It basically gives me a few extra hours in the day to do whatever I like because everyone else is asleep and there are so many fewer commitments/pressures during the night compared to the day.
That’s some pretty good wish-fulfilment in my fantasy hobby.

[Droppeddead]

Yes, the bitter irony behind the Tasha's changes is that is led to the absolute racial superiority of mountain dwarves and half elves. It had been the case that other races were better at certain tasks, but now mountain dwarves and half elves are simply ubermensch. Which is kind of funny considering their stated objectives for the Tasha's changes were to impose anti-racist values into D&D.

Well, no. You're wrong. The point of changing how racial stat bonuses worked was to get away from the whole boring "99% of character with class X is always race Y" thing that has been going on for ages. To deal with the equally boring racial stereotypes the game has used its narrative to highlight the fact that certain races doesn't always have to have certain alignments and so on.

[Mikal]

Well, no. You're wrong. The point of changing how racial stat bonuses worked was to get away from the whole boring "99% of character with class X is always race Y" thing that has been going on for ages. To deal with the equally boring racial stereotypes the game has used its narrative to highlight the fact that certain races doesn't always have to have certain alignments and so on.

Except of course now everyone’s one of two races because they’re literally better than anything else. And if you go “but not everyone does that” well... you’re the one who made the sweeping generalization first.

Sorry, you’re defending a crappy rules change that dilutes by sort of originality. It’s like point buy- everything is a cookie cutter build. It doesn’t promote diversity, it helps destroy it.’

[Droppeddead]

Except of course now everyone’s one of two races because they’re literally better than anything else. And if you go “but not everyone does that” well... you’re the one who made the sweeping generalization first.

Sorry, you’re defending a crappy rules change that dilutes by sort of originality. It’s like point buy- everything is a cookie cutter build. It doesn’t promote diversity, it helps destroy it.’

I would agree with you but then we'd both be wrong. Especially since I wasn't the first to make sweeping generalizations.

[Mikal]

You were for this specific part of the topic so...

[Droppeddead]

You were for this specific part of the topic so...

No, not at all. :)

Back on topic. If you just go purely on numbers, half elf is a bit more versatile than high elf but that doesn't neccesarily mean that they're better. A free cantrip can be worth much more than a skill profiency, depending what build you're going for.

Trance itself can be very useful in certain situations but mostly it's a ribbon.

[LudicSavant]

Except of course now everyone’s one of two races because they’re literally better than anything else.

Well, no. You're wrong.

Gotta agree with Droppeddead here, the notion that there are just one or two races that are better than anything else, that Half-Elf is one of them, and that Tasha's is to blame for that, seems pretty indefensible to me.

Here are some races that I, as an optimizer, would consider taking over a Half-Elf for various post-Tasha builds:

Aarakocra
Aasimar (Fallen)
Aasimar (Protector)
Aasimar (Scourge)
Custom Lineage
Dwarf (Duergar)
Dwarf (Hill)
Dwarf (Mark of Warding)
Dwarf (Mountain)
Elf (Eladrin)
Elf (High)
Elf (Mark of Shadow)
Elf (Shadar-Kai)
Elf (Wood)
Githyanki
Githzerai
Gnome (Mark of Scribing)
Gnome (Svirfneblin)
Goblin
Half-Elf (Mark of Storm)
Half-Elf (Mark of Detection)
Halfling (Lotusden)
Halfling (Mark of Healing)
Halfling (Mark of Hospitality)
Hobgoblin
Half-Orc (Mark of Finding)
Human (Mark of Finding)
Human (Mark of Sentinel)
Human (Mark of Passage)
Human (Mark of Handling)
Kalashtar
Kobold
Leonin
Loxodon
Satyr
Shifter (Beasthide)
Shifter (Longtooth)
Shifter (Swiftstride)
Shifter (Wildhunt)
Simic Hybrid
Tabaxi
Tiefling (Asmodeus)
Tiefling (Levistus)
Tiefling (Winged)
Variant Human
Vedalken
Warforged
Yuan-Ti Pureblood

That looks like more than "1 or 2" to me.

Half-Elf didn't even get any stronger than it used to be as a result of Tasha's -- the only thing that changed is that it is just as good for non-Cha classes as it used to be for Cha classes.


No, not at all. :)

Back on topic. If you just go purely on numbers, half elf is a bit more versatile than high elf but that doesn't neccesarily mean that they're better. A free cantrip can be worth much more than a skill profiency, depending what build you're going for.

Trance itself can be very useful in certain situations but mostly it's a ribbon.

I think Theodoxus meant to compare the High Elf to the Half-High Elf from SCAG, in which case they both get the cantrip. But in that case, it wouldn't be "+1 ASI vs trance" it would be "+1 to a tertiary stat vs 1 skill proficiency, 4 swappable tool proficiencies, access to the Fey Teleportation and Revenant Blade feats, and Trance."

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Honestly? Being 5% better at something. I can either need slightly less sleep or I can be inherently better at something I want to be good at.

But I wouldn’t have to worry about it- the custom rules are hot garbage and have a blanket ban at my table and the game i play in. Because physiological and mental species differences are not cultural.

Would you take 5% better at your favorite spell at the expense of fewer spells known?

This is a thing for a long term character. For a one shot where you want to be "Phantasmal Force King" or whatever great. Long term it can get tedious being limited to Eldritch Blast or one thing EVERY time initiative is rolled 5 times a session.

[StoneSeraph]

Would you take 5% better at your favorite spell at the expense of fewer spells known?

This is a thing for a long term character. For a one shot where you want to be "Phantasmal Force King" or whatever great. Long term it can get tedious being limited to Eldritch Blast or one thing EVERY time initiative is rolled 5 times a session.

To answer your question, yes. With respect to the long-term problem, a long-term character still has to survive the short-term; if I can't hit my enemies before they hit me, then it doesn't matter which spells I know, let alone how many. If I max out my casting stat ASAP, then, come the next ASI/Feat, I can pick up Magic Initiate or any other feat that grants new spellcasting options, should I feel so inclined.

[LudicSavant]

Would you take 5% better at your favorite spell at the expense of fewer spells known?

To answer your question, yes. With respect to the long-term problem, a long-term character still has to survive the short-term; if I can't hit my enemies before they hit me, then it doesn't matter which spells I know, let alone how many. If I max out my casting stat ASAP, then, come the next ASI/Feat, I can pick up Magic Initiate or any other feat that grants new spellcasting options, should I feel so inclined.

I think the metaphor's a bit off here.

+1 to your favorite / primary stat tends to actually be quite a bit better than a 5% improvement in outcomes. But of course, a Half-Elf's extra +1 isn't to a primary stat, or even a secondary stat. It's to a tertiary stat. A Wizard isn't getting an Int boost from a Half-Elf, or even a Con boost. They're probably getting a Dex boost.

Like, if a standard human was "+6 ASI" then it'd be the strongest race in the game, rather than one of the weakest. But of course, it's not just "+6 ASI," it's +1 to your primary stat, +1 to your secondary stat, +1 to your tertiary stat, +1 to your quaternary stat, +1 to your quinary stat, and +1 to your senary stat. And each of those +1s has steeply decreasing value relative to the last one. Or potentially no value at all, if it's not going to even out an odd stat at some point.

Half-Elf is a good race, but it's just a good race. There's lots of other things (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24978863&postcount=21) that are competitive with it.

[KorvinStarmast]

led to the absolute racial superiority of mountain dwarves and half elves Tanis Half-Elven and Flint Fireforge approve of this message. :smallcool:

[Dalinar]

Shoutouts to Ludic for teaching me some new words today. Senary? Really?

On the current topic, I'll play devil's advocate for a second: by locking in racial ASIs to certain stats, you do give the designers another way to balance races against each other, i.e. a race that gets a free spell might not get a +INT to boost their DC on it, or a race that has a good way to get advantage on a melee attack might not get a +STR or +DEX to fully utilize it. Or maybe they do, but they have some other problem--I can't name a race like this, but how many builds manage to benefit from both +STR and +INT, for instance, compared to those who really need one and dump the other? With Tasha's rules, you basically always get a +2 in your primary stat and a +1 in your secondary, with a few exceptions like non-variant human.

All that being said, there's enough non-ASI differences that there's plenty of variety to choose from, IMO. I'm not sure how I feel about the claim that Tasha's ASIs are politically motivated, but I do think we'd be really skirting the forum rules if we went into that, so let's not. More to the point, it is *explicitly* an optional rule, meaning it's up to the DM whether it applies to your game anyway. And regardless of where you land on the subject, if you can't find a DM that uses your preferred ruleset, perhaps you need to reconsider how strongly you feel about it.

Personally, the table I play at does not use Tasha's ASIs, but it is also a homebrew setting with fully homebrewed and/or rebalanced races, which 1) is way too much to ask of your typical DM and 2) means that it's not necessarily optimal to just copy everyone else's builds anyway.

On the original topic, I think more knowledgeable people than me have already chimed in, so not much to say here.