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anthon
2021-03-21, 10:04 PM
So ive been going over various classes in my head, and thinking about how they compare to each other, in various editions of various games and here's some stuff i came up with, but then realized they all are basically using the same measuring stick: Kaiju, or giant super monster (i.e. dragons etc.)

Summoner - Summons a Kaiju
Black Mage - Attacks like a Kaiju (nuke/meteor swarm), sometimes defends like a Kaiju too (wall/ward spells)
White Mage/Cleric - Can summon Holy Kaiju (example: arch angels), Heal/Regen like Kaiju, rarely DPS like a Kaiju (white/holy spell).
Psychic - is a kaiju (Tetsuo from Akira, Locke the Superman, Blu from Toward the Terra, etc.)
Transmuter - turns into a kaiju (some variant wizards also turn into dragons/giant elementals, aka kaiju at epic levels)
Mecha Pilot - Pilots a Kaiju
Knight of Solomnia/Dragon Knight - Rides a Kaiju
Superman/Mutant - is a kaiju (aqua man, super man, wonder woman, crazy jean grey, magneto, hulk, etc.)

Fighter - is NOT a kaiju
Thief - is NOT a kaiju
Military Pilot - may attack like a kaiju (heavy missiles, A-10 machineguns, nuclear bombs)
Tank Pilot - basically is a kaiju (armor, missile/cannon attacks, some warheads are nuclear, some tanks are giant, c.f. mecha)
General/Admiral - Summons a Kaiju (similar to summoner, but uses pilots and vehicles to do it)
Hacker - Attacks like a Kaiju, seldom defends like one


What analysis do you have for these and other classes?

When push comes to shove, and your traditional format of the class is taken to its logical limits without campy role breaking artifacts, is the character class capable of matching near godzilla level threats, or completely outmatched?

Drmccabe
2021-03-23, 08:47 AM
The metaphor of what a "Dragon" is is a natural disaster.

In 3.5 (maybe dragon magazine) I remember reading that when dragons age out, they don't "die" they become landmasses like hills, forests, mountains, rivers, etc. I think it also said something about them needing to collect wealth for this reason (not sure on that)

I bring up the dragon, because dragons are literal natural disasters in D&D.
Godzilla was a metaphor for nukes destroying japan.
So these beasts of great power, which you've labeled kaiju, are similar.

Then we come to the PC's. The characters who advance to the end of their level career are supposed to be so strong they can stop natural disaster or be them, so yes, PC classes are supposed to be a man capable of becoming a kaiju (or at least thier power level)

I'm not sure if I answered all your questions.

GreatWyrmGold
2021-03-23, 01:06 PM
The metaphor of what a "Dragon" is is a natural disaster.
Well...yes and no? Sometimes they're that, sometimes they represent royalty, sometimes they represent (or are) gods/divine beings. This is true in D&D, too; what place do genius-level intellect and unrivaled magical power have in a hurricane allegory?
The thing dragons have in common is power. They are powerful, and the things they represent are as well. Overly Sarcastic Productions has a video about them here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eXAPwjASEQ&vl=en) Kaiju, being more recent, have a more specific set of cultural associations; they generally represent what a culture fears. There's an OSP video on them as well. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbwagsE5iSE)


But that's off-topic.



What analysis do you have for these and other classes?
That you're trying way too hard to force a metric kaiju into the definitions. I'm not sure why, especially since there's no standardized kaiju to measure with. While many of the comparisons make sense (okay, a transmuter/shapeshifter turning into a giant monster is kaiju-ey), some are just bizarre (in what way is a hacker's attack comparable to a kaiju's?).


When push comes to shove, and your traditional format of the class is taken to its logical limits without campy role breaking artifacts, is the character class capable of matching near godzilla level threats, or completely outmatched?
That depends on what you define each class's role as, what limits you deem "logical," and where you draw the line for camp. Without knowing anything about the game these classes are supposed to go into—not even basic information like genre or tone—there can be no meaningful answers.

anthon
2021-03-23, 07:13 PM
Well...yes and no? Sometimes they're that, sometimes they represent royalty, sometimes they represent (or are) gods/divine beings. This is true in D&D, too; what place do genius-level intellect and unrivaled magical power have in a hurricane allegory?
The thing dragons have in common is power. They are powerful, and the things they represent are as well. Overly Sarcastic Productions has a video about them here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eXAPwjASEQ&vl=en) Kaiju, being more recent, have a more specific set of cultural associations; they generally represent what a culture fears. There's an OSP video on them as well. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbwagsE5iSE)


But that's off-topic.



That you're trying way too hard to force a metric kaiju into the definitions. I'm not sure why, especially since there's no standardized kaiju to measure with. While many of the comparisons make sense (okay, a transmuter/shapeshifter turning into a giant monster is kaiju-ey), some are just bizarre (in what way is a hacker's attack comparable to a kaiju's?).


That depends on what you define each class's role as, what limits you deem "logical," and where you draw the line for camp. Without knowing anything about the game these classes are supposed to go into—not even basic information like genre or tone—there can be no meaningful answers.

Kaiju come in various strengths and sizes in shows like Godzilla/Kong and Pacific Rim, but relative to a human/foot soldier/etc., there's essentially no difference. Whether its a 50 ton monster that squashes you and your jeep, or a 500 ton monster, or 50,000 tons, your experience with the encounter (such as the shaky camera movie Cloverfield) is essentially hopeless without a literal orders of magnitude (plural) increase in your combat power.


In games, different classes have growth curves or right off the bat access to conflict resolution on scales, and some are kaiju capable, and some aren't, and MOST don't have a grey area, which is the beauty of kaiju - it's literally so OP that either you can deal with it, or you can't. Like i said, 2+ orders of magnitude.


Hackers are interesting characters, because they are as powerful as their connectivity and the things so connected. In Mumbai recently, there was a hacking scenario caused by a rival nation that had a border skirmish:

"Four months later and more than 1,500 miles away in Mumbai, India, trains shut down and the stock market closed as the power went out in a city of 20 million people."

During the Texas windmill power outage, several people froze to death. This is an excellent example of Drmccabe's "natural disaster" equivalency. And i agree on that front.

A Kaiju isn't just a big monster you fight in the wilderness, they are a metaphor for an earthquake, hurricane, or nuclear strike.

Speaking of Nuclear strikes, Hackers are theoretically capable of accessing orbital weapons. Depending on your technology level, that could include orbital particle beams, like the ones used in Akira and Bubble Gum Crisis. Obviously it could include ICBMs, lasers, and "rods from god", which matches the "kaiju/dragon = gods" parallel. One B movie had satellites capable of controlling weather extremes, and hackers weaponizing it to destroy cities with Arctic Blasts and Tidal Waves.

In every respect offensively, the scifi hacker is thus, potentially, as dangerous as the Black Mage of various stories and video games (Raistlin Majere was a Black Mage. He killed his whole pantheon in Dragonlance).

Knights of Solomnia had a dragonlance that could literally fire the dragon's breath weapon as long as they were mounted on a Dragon. When you get into the Ancient/Great Wyrm range of Dragons, you've got a Kaiju, So this is a fairly legit 1:1 comparison.

Imagining Superman fight Godzilla is a no brainer.

And Imagining Pacific Rim Mecha, or Gundums, or Voltron, Fighting such things is likewise self explanatory. Voltron is a classic story of Man's ingenuity vs. Evil Giant Monsters. There's even a transforming Automobile variant of Voltron.

But in Roleplaying, it is not correct to say "my Nomad and his motorcycle can totes fight Godzilla". That's just silly.

Comparing classes to each other is nuanced and tricky and people always look for loop holes, exceptions, currency, popularity, etc.

I think a Kaiju is considerably more neutral. It's a threat, and either your given class can potentially handle it, or the GM needs to Deus Ex Machina you a Chekov nuke to fight it, and as i said before, that DM intervention with artifacts/plot doesn't count.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForbiddenChekhovsGun
-->ironically "Often used in conjunction with a Godzilla Threshold"
double serendipity-->godzilla threshold points to hackers with kill satellites "https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillSat"

lucky9
2021-03-24, 09:47 AM
Just my opinion from limited experience:

Kaiju are city destroyers.

High level magic, hacking advanced weaponry, great wyrms, various superman shenanigans are planet destroyers. Or sometimes even cosmos destroyers.

Again limited experience, i.e. Godzilla, Pacific Rim, etc. so I’m not saying kaiju cannot destroy more than one city block at a time, I just haven’t seen it.

AntiAuthority
2021-03-24, 04:22 PM
So ive been going over various classes in my head, and thinking about how they compare to each other, in various editions of various games and here's some stuff i came up with, but then realized they all are basically using the same measuring stick: Kaiju, or giant super monster (i.e. dragons etc.)

Summoner - Summons a Kaiju
Black Mage - Attacks like a Kaiju (nuke/meteor swarm), sometimes defends like a Kaiju too (wall/ward spells)
White Mage/Cleric - Can summon Holy Kaiju (example: arch angels), Heal/Regen like Kaiju, rarely DPS like a Kaiju (white/holy spell).
Psychic - is a kaiju (Tetsuo from Akira, Locke the Superman, Blu from Toward the Terra, etc.)
Transmuter - turns into a kaiju (some variant wizards also turn into dragons/giant elementals, aka kaiju at epic levels)
Mecha Pilot - Pilots a Kaiju
Knight of Solomnia/Dragon Knight - Rides a Kaiju
Superman/Mutant - is a kaiju (aqua man, super man, wonder woman, crazy jean grey, magneto, hulk, etc.)

Fighter - is NOT a kaiju
Thief - is NOT a kaiju
Military Pilot - may attack like a kaiju (heavy missiles, A-10 machineguns, nuclear bombs)
Tank Pilot - basically is a kaiju (armor, missile/cannon attacks, some warheads are nuclear, some tanks are giant, c.f. mecha)
General/Admiral - Summons a Kaiju (similar to summoner, but uses pilots and vehicles to do it)
Hacker - Attacks like a Kaiju, seldom defends like one


What analysis do you have for these and other classes?

When push comes to shove, and your traditional format of the class is taken to its logical limits without campy role breaking artifacts, is the character class capable of matching near godzilla level threats, or completely outmatched?

I like the way you think OP.

I have compared classes to such things before, in addition to Lovecraftian Horrors, Super Heroes, Mythological Gods and Demigods and other high powered characters. Some characters get to that level of power, others don't. If some characters become akin to walking metaphors for nature and concepts, and others don't, something has gone wrong somewhere as it's pretty much impossible to balance "just a person" to "avatar of destruction." Either all classes need to be just a person or all classes need to be avatars of destruction (or their archetypical counterpart). If they need an artifact to handle a force of nature type enemy, as opposed to being a Level X character, they don't make the cut for me.




Just my opinion from limited experience:

Kaiju are city destroyers.

High level magic, hacking advanced weaponry, great wyrms, various superman shenanigans are planet destroyers. Or sometimes even cosmos destroyers.

Again limited experience, i.e. Godzilla, Pacific Rim, etc. so I’m not saying kaiju cannot destroy more than one city block at a time, I just haven’t seen it.

Yeah, depends on the kaiju.

The live-action ones are usually the weakest though (much like with superheroes), as animated and comic versions of Godzilla can destroy planets with a single attack (Well, the one in particular I'm thinking of did it during a beam struggle), destroy things that have been calculated to have thousands of times the mass/density of the Earth/Sun (if you believe in vs battles), can destroy black holes, regenerate from anything (as they're pure energy and can't really die), possess the flesh of demons who ate him, tank 100+ nukes (while still as a child, presumably got stronger with age), terraformed a planet and is heavily implied to be able to control most/all life on it, forced humanity to abandon the planet, fight the planetary Hulk and cosmic level heroes like Marvel's 616 Thor and such.

In Shin Godzilla, his power is to evolve. This is what he's capable of as a baby (https://youtu.be/eIGliZjAlAk?t=96), but is theorized to become much more powerful as he reaches adulthood. According to people who can read the Japanese artbook, his further forms as he neared the end of his life cycle would have had him engulf the planet in his mass, splintering off to other planets, having a universe inside his body, being omnipresent and being able to create life on a whim.

Stonehead
2021-03-24, 05:48 PM
Honestly, the difference between destroying 1 city block or 10 city blocks doesn't seem that significant to me. They're both so far above the power level of a real life human that it's hard to even imagine. Kind of like how people are really bad at comprehending the difference between a million and a billion.

In fact, that's probably the point. Comparing classes to that strong, destructive mental image works pretty well at describing it.

Devils_Advocate
2021-04-12, 09:46 PM
Fighter - is NOT a kaiju
Thief - is NOT a kaiju
When unleashing Kaiju Power is a thing that people can do -- e.g when the other classes you mention exist -- then killing, manipulating, or circumventing people can prevent Kaiju Power from being unleashed.

Now, that's not so big of a help to the Fighter. Even if you can't cast spells while someone is wailing on you -- as should be the case if the Fighter is meant to be any more than a joke -- you can still summon a monster in preparation for battle, so if that monster outclasses the Fighter at fighting, any prepared Summoner comes in at an advantage, and at the point when the Summoner can have a Fighter-level monster around all day, the Summoner is just better at the Fighter's job than the Fighter. That's the power of delegation.

A spy or stealth operative, on the other hand, is very different. A spy can potentially influence people to direct Kaiju Power as the spy desires. And Sneaky McNinja can assassinate people or sabotage vital kaiju materials. Metal Gear Solid is a game about a Rogue who prevents the enemy from using Kaiju Power via a combination of not being seen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-M2hs3sXGo) and human vulnerability to good old-fashioned perforation. When all you know is that someone really good at killing people is somewhere in your immediate vicinity, calling down radioactive fire on that person's general area isn't really an option.

Unless you can survive radioactive fire just fine. And if you aren't perforation-vulnerable, then it's going to be hard for someone to kill you with conventional methods. If a human in command of Kaiju Power personally has Kaiju Toughness without some sort of known vulnerability, that's a problem for Sneaky McNinja. But if a Rogue can even sometimes prevent Kaiju Combat, that's a big deal if you care about things like collateral damage.

Now, does that make a Rogue a suitable member of the Kaiju Squad? Well, no, because avoiding Kaiju Combat and engaging in Kaiju Combat are two very different activities that don't really go together so well. Everyone else needing to sit around waiting for the Rogue to complete a sneaky minigame isn't a recipe for a fun time. This is the whole Decker Problem from Shadowrun, as I understand it. But that doesn't make the Rouge less capable than the others, just differently capable.

AntiAuthority
2021-04-15, 10:08 AM
I absolutely agree. Good and short explanation.

As my comment mentioned, there are kaiju capable of destroying worlds and being on a cosmic tier like the magic, technology and superheroes they were being compared to.

Tvtyrant
2021-04-15, 11:03 AM
As my comment mentioned, there are kaiju capable of destroying worlds and being on a cosmic tier like the magic, technology and superheroes they were being compared to.

So then Kaiju isn't a useful power metric because of the power variety in them. It would be like using animal as a measurement of power. If the unit could mean a mouse or an elephant, it isn't actually a unit.

AntiAuthority
2021-04-15, 11:44 AM
So then Kaiju isn't a useful power metric because of the power variety in them. It would be like using animal as a measurement of power. If the unit could mean a mouse or an elephant, it isn't actually a unit.

Pretty much, some can destroy a few buildings others can destroy planets and warp space-time. But there's also huge varieties in power between magics, technologies and superheroes in fiction.

Figuring out a bare minimum/absolute maximum or general range/scope of abilities appropriate for Character X would probably go a long way for measuring and balancing powers.