Paladin lvls 7-11 vs Fighter lvls 7-11

[Baronmwd]

Ok so here is my multiclass plan. Obviously, this would be a tank, front liner and damage dealer. Spells slots are mostly for Smite and any other spells or spells are bonus.

Totem Barbarian Bear level 3
Fighter Champ or Battle Master (still on the fence to which) level 6 - 11
Paladin (uncertain of Oath) level 6 - 11

So my question is, I know I want the Barbarian level 3 for the resistances +3 rages/day. So, that leaves 17 levels to best split between Paladin/Fighter. I'm a min/max type of player and what I prioritize with the remaining 17 levels to split is...
1. Damage (nova then dpr)
2. Defense (AC over resistance since I have good resistance from totem bear)
3. Utility

I'm new to 5e and when I read all theses class features and special skills of classes and subclasses most of them sound good-great on paper but I lack the tabletop experience of playing all these classes and subclasses to know what really works and doesn't in game. So any advise that you could help with would be awesome.

Thanks

[ProsecutorGodot]

In general I don't think multiclassing 3 ways is recommended.

I think (acknowledging personal bias here) you would probably get more out of Paladin, you don't have to bother with spellcasting and can use all of your spell slots to fuel smite.

I'm in no way an exceptional optimizer here though, so I'd suggest reading The Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclass Guide by PeteNutButter (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?502248-Ultimate-Optimizer-s-Multiclassing-Guide) as its very likely that the combination you're looking for as well as suggested breakpoints (typically levels 4 and 5, rather than 3 for a martial class especially if you're playing it from level 1) will be mentioned here.

[OldTrees1]

Why Fighter 6? The extra ASI?
How would your first 9 levels look?
What level are you starting at?
What level do you get Paladin 6 and how important is defending your allies to your character concept?
Do you want Paladin of Ancient's Aura of Warding to defend your allies?

[Baronmwd]

Why Fighter 6? The extra ASI?
How would your first 9 levels look?
What level are you starting at?
What level do you get Paladin 6 and how important is defending your allies to your character concept?
Do you want Paladin of Ancient's Aura of Warding to defend your allies?

Yes it was for the ASI but I notice Paladin 12 gives ASI as well so could go Fighter 5 and Paladin 12.

A. Bar 3/Fighter 5/Paladin 12 (more utility + more smite)
B. Bar 4/ Fighter 5/ Paladin 11 (slightly more hps otherwise I think same at A.)
C. Bar 3/ Paladin 6/ Fighter 11 (more attacks but less smite)

As far as building first 9 levels. I'm thinking...
Paladin 1 -> Barb 1-3 -> then Paladin 2-6

I would be starting at 1st level

I would say protecting my allies is #3 on my priority list behind Tanking (which is protecting allies), high melee damage then protecting my allies. I think I'm leaning more towards the option B above since the 11th level Devine Smite makes up for the loss of the 3rd attack from the fighter. Also, the extra levels in Paladin gives me more smites each day. I'm probably going to go with Longsword + shield to add to AC. I do really like the Aura of Warding for my allies.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Barbarian levels give you 3 rage per long rest.

You could go Rune Knight Fighter 7 for the Hill Rune which gives you resistance to all bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage for 1 minute, once per short or long rest. Depending on how many short rests your party takes (probably a lot if you have a warlock, monk, or other short rest characters in the party), this could get more than three uses per day. Plus the other runes are fantastic.

If you go Ancients Paladin 7+ you'll have resistance to all spell damage with 100% uptime. Those two combined should remove the need for any Barbarian levels and clean up your build.

In that case, a mix of 12 and 8 would be ideal for ASIs. I'd go more Fighter to get a fourth rune and the additional attack since you don't care much about the spells. You could go 11/9 to get 3rd level Paladin spell slots for smites.

[x3n0n]

Yes it was for the ASI but I notice Paladin 12 gives ASI as well so could go Fighter 5 and Paladin 12.

A. Bar 3/Fighter 5/Paladin 12 (more utility + more smite)
B. Bar 4/ Fighter 5/ Paladin 11 (slightly more hps otherwise I think same at A.)
C. Bar 3/ Paladin 6/ Fighter 11 (more attacks but less smite)

As far as building first 9 levels. I'm thinking...
Paladin 1 -> Barb 1-3 -> then Paladin 2-6

I would be starting at 1st level

I would say protecting my allies is #3 on my priority list behind Tanking (which is protecting allies), high melee damage then protecting my allies. I think I'm leaning more towards the option B above since the 11th level Devine Smite makes up for the loss of the 3rd attack from the fighter. Also, the extra levels in Paladin gives me more smites each day. I'm probably going to go with Longsword + shield to add to AC. I do really like the Aura of Warding for my allies.

Now the question is what do you want from Fighter 4-5? Fighter 5's Extra Attack doesn't stack with Paladin 5's Extra Attack, so I am not sure what the goal is there.

For that matter, if you're going up to Paladin 6 before taking any Fighter levels, I'd recommend playing that far first and thinking carefully about what you want from Fighter 1-4 that you wouldn't get by taking more levels in Paladin. (The ones that appear valuable to me are a second Fighting Style, Action Surge, and maybe a really sweet subclass feature like Battle Master maneuvers.)

[Baronmwd]

The Barbarian levels give you 3 rage per long rest.

You could go Rune Knight Fighter 7 for the Hill Rune which gives you resistance to all bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage for 1 minute, once per short or long rest. Depending on how many short rests your party takes (probably a lot if you have a warlock, monk, or other short rest characters in the party), this could get more than three uses per day. Plus the other runes are fantastic.

If you go Ancients Paladin 7+ you'll have resistance to all spell damage with 100% uptime. Those two combined should remove the need for any Barbarian levels and clean up your build.

In that case, a mix of 12 and 8 would be ideal for ASIs. I'd go more Fighter to get a fourth rune and the additional attack since you don't care much about the spells. You could go 11/9 to get 3rd level Paladin spell slots for smites.

Oh man this is good stuff, I need to read up on Rune Knight online since they are not in PH book which I have. I like the idea of dropping the Barbarian class and still retaining some pretty good resistances. Also, by dropping Barb class would allow me to wear heavy armor which helps my AC or gives me flex to choose GWM over S & B.

[Keravath]

There are several considerations you need to keep in mind. The first being that you won't be that impressed when you actually play the character given the order of leveling.

All martial classes have a big power jump at level 5 when they get the extra attack feature which lets them take two attacks with the attack action. In addition, both paladin and fighter have a similar jump at level 11 when paladin gets improved divine smite which adds a d8 damage to every melee weapon attack and a fighter gets another attack as part of the attack action.

If you follow the progression 1 paladin, 3-4 barbarian, 2-6 paladin ... you will be level 8 or 9 by the time you get the paladin extra attack feature - something which every other single classed martial character in the party will get at level 5. Being able to rage and resist damage doesn't feel nearly as impressive when you only have one attack each turn and the single classed level 9 wizard is firing off fireballs or wall of force ... or the single classed fighter has had 3 ASIs or feats in addition to picking up extra attack at level 5.

In addition the paladin aura at level 6 won't happen until level 9 or 10.

It might look cool on paper as a level 20 build but actually playing the character through the levels is far more important.

Another consideration is fighter level 5 - it gets you nothing if you already have paladin 5. Extra attack features from different classes don't stack. It is fairly rare for folks to multiclass both paladin and fighter past level 5 due to not receiving any benefit from hitting level 5. Whatever you get from 6+ needs to be worth the repeated extra attack feature which has no benefit.

So the question is - what do the different classes bring to the table that makes you want to include them?
Barbarian - damage resistance when raging
Paladin - smiting
Fighter - action surge? Maneuvers? It doesn't seem to add much depending on what your key features are intended to be

Are you planning a PoleArm master character? Or Great Weapon Master? GWM doesn't synergize well with smites since the -5 to hit does matter and matters more as the damage you can do on one hit goes up. On the other hand, a GWM fighter/barbarian can work very well when combined with reckless attack. However, PAM does work well with paladin and improved divine smite at level 11 which adds a d8 to every attack - the more attacks, the more damage and the more chance for landing smites. If you want both GWM and PAM then a barbarian/fighter can be a good choice.

The bottom line is I am not sure that a triple class barbarian/paladin/fighter will actually get you what you want or be fun playing while getting there ...

[Doug Lampert]

If you thought that Fighter 5 & 6 was worth it for an ASI, then Barbarian 4 should be worth it since it also gives an ASI.

I'd go pure paladin to paladin 6 to get the aura and second attack ASAP. Then if you still want barbarian do Barbarian to 3 (or 4 if you still like ASI).

By that time, you can make your own choice between paladin and fighter for further levels.

But only one non-rogue martial class goes to 5, because the way multiclassing works in 5e, it's pretty much a dead level for the second non-rogue martial.

[OldTrees1]

Yes it was for the ASI but I notice Paladin 12 gives ASI as well so could go Fighter 5 and Paladin 12.
Barbarian 4 is a faster ASI. So maybe Barbarian 3-4, Paladin 6+, Fighter 4+?


As far as building first 9 levels. I'm thinking...
Paladin 1 -> Barb 1-3 -> then Paladin 2-6

I would be starting at 1st level

Looks like a solid start that is prioritizing Rage of Smites and Bear Totem over Aura of Protection. Your Extra Attack will be delayed for 3 levels and that could be disappointing. If that concerns you then Paladin 1-5(6?)/Barbarian 1-3 is an alternative. However it sounds like you really like Bear Totem. Pros and Cons in both directions.

Oh and starting with Paladin sounds like you wanted strong Wis saves and the option to wear heavy armor? Barbarians don't have to rely on unarmored AC. Plenty of multiclass Barbarians wear heavy armor

I don't see any Fighter, that implies to me that Fighter is not a pressing concern. Maybe add Barbarian 3-4 / Paladin 16-17 as an option.
Barbarian 3 / Paladin 6 / Fighter 11
Barbarian 3-6 / Paladin 13-17 / Fighter 0-3


I would say protecting my allies is #3 on my priority list behind Tanking (which is protecting allies), high melee damage then protecting my allies. I think I'm leaning more towards the option B above since the 11th level Devine Smite makes up for the loss of the 3rd attack from the fighter. Also, the extra levels in Paladin gives me more smites each day. I'm probably going to go with Longsword + shield to add to AC. I do really like the Aura of Warding for my allies.

It is starting to sound like a Barbarian 3 / Paladin 13 multiclass. What do you want from Fighter 1-3?

[Droppeddead]

B. Bar 4/ Fighter 5/ Paladin 11 (slightly more hps otherwise I think same at A.)

Fighter 5 is completely useless in this build. Literally.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Oh man this is good stuff, I need to read up on Rune Knight online since they are not in PH book which I have. I like the idea of dropping the Barbarian class and still retaining some pretty good resistances. Also, by dropping Barb class would allow me to wear heavy armor which helps my AC or gives me flex to choose GWM over S & B.

Honestly, make a Goliath (https://www.dndbeyond.com/races/goliath) (EE Player's companion (https://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/player%E2%80%99s-companion), Volo's), go Fighter with the Interception fighting style (Tasha's, UA), go Rune Knight (Tasha's), and just stick with that. Goliath gives you a 1/short rest ability to reduce incoming damage, and Interception gives you the ability to reduce the damage your allies take.

If you feel like you need to be any tankier (you shouldn't), dip Sorcerer to learn Absorb Elements (https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/absorb-elements) and maybe Shield (https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/shield) and/or Expeditious Retreat (https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/expeditious-retreat). Pick the Shadow Magic sorcerous origin (Xanathar's) for 120 ft. Darkvision, and 1/long rest if an attack would drop you to 0 hp you can make a Cha save to go to 1 hp instead.

If you like the Paladin stuff better, you can mix Paladin and Sorcerer instead and stick to defensive spells and smites. But getting five or more levels in two different classes that get extra attack is just poor optimization due to redundant features. That and one of those two classes' higher level features would be better than the other class's mid-level features.

[Baronmwd]

It is starting to sound like a Barbarian 3 / Paladin 13 multiclass. What do you want from Fighter 1-3?

I want Action Surge, additional fighting style, Battle Master Maneuvers + superiority Dice. I was only going to Fighter 4 for the additional ASI but I could get that with Barbarian at 4 + a couple more hps. So really my question is not boiled down to Paladin 14 vs Barbarian 4

The Barbarian will the ASI + a couple more hps vs Paladin 14 will give me Cleansing Touch.

So Barbarian 4/ Fighter 3/ Paladin 13 is what I am leaning towards.

[Frogreaver]

I want Action Surge, additional fighting style, Battle Master Maneuvers + superiority Dice. I was only going to Fighter 4 for the additional ASI but I could get that with Barbarian at 4 + a couple more hps. So really my question is not boiled down to Paladin 14 vs Barbarian 4

The Barbarian will the ASI + a couple more hps vs Paladin 14 will give me Cleansing Touch.

So Barbarian 4/ Fighter 3/ Paladin 13 is what I am leaning towards.

So what does your build look like at level 10?

[OldTrees1]

I want Action Surge, additional fighting style, Battle Master Maneuvers + superiority Dice. I was only going to Fighter 4 for the additional ASI but I could get that with Barbarian at 4 + a couple more hps. So really my question is not boiled down to Paladin 14 vs Barbarian 4

The Barbarian will the ASI + a couple more hps vs Paladin 14 will give me Cleansing Touch.

So Barbarian 4/ Fighter 3/ Paladin 13 is what I am leaning towards.

That is what I expected you were eager to get from Fighter.

Given the massive multiclass nature, I expect Paladin 13th / Barbarian 4th or Paladin 13th-14th would be levels 19-20. At that point Cleansing Touch is not as useful, so I suggest leaning into Barbarian 4th.

Features of note: (ignoring proficiencies gained based on which class you start as)
Barbarian 1 (Rage)
Barbarian 2 (Reckless Attack)
Barbarian 3 (Bear Totem)
Paladin 2 (Divine Smite, 1st level spell slots, Fighting Style)
Paladin 5 (Extra Attack, 2nd level spell slots)
Paladin 6 (Aura of Protection)
Paladin 7 (Aura of Warding)
Paladin 9 (3rd level spell slots)
Paladin 11 (Improved Divine Smite)
Paladin 13 (4th level spell slots, Flying Steed)
Fighter 1 (Fighting Style)
Fighter 2 (Action Surge)
Fighter 3 (Battle Master)

You said your first 9 levels probably looked like
Paladin 1st / Barbarian 1st-3rd / Paladin 2nd-6th

I think your last 4-5 levels would probably be
Fighter 3rd / Paladin 12th-13th / Barbarian 4th
or
Paladin 10th-13th / Barbarian 4th

[Yakk]

You said your first 9 levels probably looked like
Paladin 1st / Barbarian 1st-3rd / Paladin 2nd-6th

That is an example of a build that plays really poorly. You don't get your 2nd attack until level 8.

The first martial class you take should go up to 5, so you don't delay extra attack.

Which means your first martial class should be the only martial class that goes over 5.

So Fighter 11/Barbarian 3/Paladin 3/Sorcerer 3 is a build. It starts out Fighter 5, then goes off into Barbarian, then does Paladin, then Sorcerer, and finish off Fighter.

Still rather nuts.

Paladin X/Fighter 3/Barbarian 3 is more sane. Maybe Paladin 6/Barbarian 3/Fighter 3/Paladin 14.

[Baronmwd]

So what does your build look like at level 10?

I think I'm going...
Barbarian 1 lvl
Paladin 6 lvls
Barbarian 2 lvls
Fighter 1 (maybe Barb 1 for the ASI)

[Baronmwd]

That is what I expected you were eager to get from Fighter.

Given the massive multiclass nature, I expect Paladin 13th / Barbarian 4th or Paladin 13th-14th would be levels 19-20. At that point Cleansing Touch is not as useful, so I suggest leaning into Barbarian 4th.

Features of note: (ignoring proficiencies gained based on which class you start as)
Barbarian 1 (Rage)
Barbarian 2 (Reckless Attack)
Barbarian 3 (Bear Totem)
Paladin 2 (Divine Smite, 1st level spell slots, Fighting Style)
Paladin 5 (Extra Attack, 2nd level spell slots)
Paladin 6 (Aura of Protection)
Paladin 7 (Aura of Warding)
Paladin 9 (3rd level spell slots)
Paladin 11 (Improved Divine Smite)
Paladin 13 (4th level spell slots, Flying Steed)
Fighter 1 (Fighting Style)
Fighter 2 (Action Surge)
Fighter 3 (Battle Master)

You said your first 9 levels probably looked like
Paladin 1st / Barbarian 1st-3rd / Paladin 2nd-6th

I think your last 4-5 levels would probably be
Fighter 3rd / Paladin 12th-13th / Barbarian 4th
or
Paladin 10th-13th / Barbarian 4th

Thank you so much this really helps, so much to think about and in what order is best and so many opinions. LOL I appreciate all the guidance everyone is giving.

[Keravath]

Oh and starting with Paladin sounds like you wanted strong Wis saves and the option to wear heavy armor? Barbarians don't have to rely on unarmored AC. Plenty of multiclass Barbarians wear heavy armor



I just wanted to correct this mis-impession. Very few if any multiclass barbarians wear heavy armor at all since they can't gain the benefits of rage while wearing heavy armor and if you aren't gaining the benefits of rage why are you a barbarian?

"RAGE
In battle, you fight with primal ferocity. On your turn, you can enter a rage as a bonus action.
While raging, you gain the following benefits if you aren't wearing heavy armor:
• You have advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws.
• When you make a melee weapon attack using Strength, you gain a bonus to the damage roll that
increases as you gain levels as a barbarian, as shown in the Rage Damage column of the Barbarian table.
• You have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage."

[OldTrees1]

I just wanted to correct this mis-impession. Very few if any multiclass barbarians wear heavy armor at all since they can't gain the benefits of rage while wearing heavy armor and if you aren't gaining the benefits of rage why are you a barbarian?

"RAGE
In battle, you fight with primal ferocity. On your turn, you can enter a rage as a bonus action.
While raging, you gain the following benefits if you aren't wearing heavy armor:
• You have advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws.
• When you make a melee weapon attack using Strength, you gain a bonus to the damage roll that
increases as you gain levels as a barbarian, as shown in the Rage Damage column of the Barbarian table.
• You have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage."

Thank you for the correction. This is important to correct.

Interestingly enough that does not necessarily disable Bear Totem. (Which is odd so ask your GM)
So Medium Armor Rage is +2 Damage, and advantage on Str checks/saves.


Your totem animal might be an animal related to those listed here but more appropriate to your homeland. For example, you could choose a hawk or vulture in place of an eagle.
Bear. While raging, you have resistance to all damage except psychic damage. The spirit of the bear makes you tough enough to stand up to any punishment

[Yakk]

That is an example of a build that plays really poorly. You don't get your 2nd attack until level 8.

The first martial class you take should go up to 5, so you don't delay extra attack.

Which means your first martial class should be the only martial class that goes over 5.

So Fighter 11/Barbarian 3/Paladin 3/Sorcerer 3 is a build. It starts out Fighter 5, then goes off into Barbarian, then does Paladin, then Sorcerer, and finish off Fighter.

Still rather nuts.

Paladin X/Fighter 3/Barbarian 3 is more sane. Maybe Paladin 6/Barbarian 3/Fighter 3/Paladin 14.

Actually, Paladin 6/Barb 3/Fighter 3/Paladin 12/Sorc 2 might be better; this costs you access to 4th level paladin spells, 2 HP, and cleansing touch; in exchange, you gain access to arcane caster items, 1 additional casting level, level 1 sorcerer subclass features, and flexible casting sorcery points (/s list level you gain the stuff).

But this is only level 19 and 20, so who cares.

Barb 1 before Paladin 6 is painful, but I guess 1 level delay on extra attack to (a) get the theme in earlier, and (b) rage is nice.

[micahaphone]

Also note that multiclassing into paladin or fighter does not give you heavy armor proficiency (not that anyone with barb levels should wear heavy armor)