D&D Base Class Contest XV Chat Thread

[MoleMage]

Welcome to the chat thread for the forteenth Base Class Competition for D&D 5e. If you wish to say anything about the competition which is neither a submission nor a vote, then it belongs here. You do not need to be a contestant to post here. You are allowed to critique a competitor’s work and offer suggestions on how to improve their homebrew through this thread, but it is preferred if you do so through that class’ specific thread (if applicable).

Current Contest: Partial Casters (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628967-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XV-Partial-Casters)

Voting Thread: Coming May 17th

1st contest: Who Needs Swords or Sorcery? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556338-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-I-Who-needs-Swords-OR-Sorcerery), won by WarrentheHero with the Inventor

2nd contest: Expect a low Margin of Terror (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?560208-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-II-expect-a-low-Margin-of-Terror), Won by Mourne with the Sleepwalker

3rd Contest: The Elements, and not the Periodic Ones (Probably?) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?565360-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-III-The-Elements-and-not-the-periodic-ones-(probably-)!), won By Pygmybatrider with The Shaman

4th contest: Does Not Meet Expectations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570496-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-IV-Does-Not-Meet-Expectations), won with a tie by Molemage with the Destined and Pygmybatrider's Mesmer

5th contest: Time to Chill out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576131-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-V-Time-to-Chill-Out&p=23567807#post23567807), won by Molemage with the Wintreborn

6th contest: The Monster Mash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581138-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-VI-The-Monster-Mash), won with a three-way tie by Molemage with the Golem, theVoidWatches with the Lycanthrope, and daemonaetae with the Elemental Scion

7th contest: Remix Mastery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587919-D-amp-D-Base-Class-Contest-VII-Remix-Mastery&p=23906232#post23906232), won by KOLE with the Ranger Remixed

8th contest: Contest VIII: Magic Without Slots (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?594571-D-amp-D-Base-Class-Contest-VIII-Magic-Without-Slots&p=24070927#post24070927), won by MoleMage with the Cultist

9th contest: It's Time for Time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?600537-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-IX-It-s-Time-for-Time&p=24361802#post24361802), won by MoleMage with the Clockwinder

10th contest: Blast from the Past (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?606841-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-X-Blast-from-the-Past), won by PairO'DiceLost with the Martial Adept

11th contest: Contest XI: Signature Creation (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612097-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XI-Signature-Creation&p=24502355#post24502355) won by MoleMage with the Chef

12th contest: Contest XII: Hybrid Vigor (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616515-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XII-Hybrid-Vigor) won by MoleMage with the Witch

13th contest: Based in Science (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620836-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XIII-Based-in-Science) won by Old Harry MTX with the Pilot

14th contest: Contest XIV: Monster Mash II (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624969-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XIV-Monster-Mash-II&p=24871549#post24871549) won by BerzerkerUnit with the Beheld.



1) The class you homebrew should fit the theme. You can interpret the theme as broadly as you like without risk of disqualification, but doing so may reduce your chances of earning votes during the voting period.
2) You may only create one base class. If you create more than one class then you must choose which one to enter and remove all the others from this thread and the contest (making them invalid) . If you do not specify which one you favor by the time voting begins, all of your content is invalid.
3) When you submit your class you must create a post on this thread which either has the content or holds a link to it. You may also optionally create one other individual thread for your class on the homebrew design sub-forum. If it is found that you have revealed your class on another site or on another thread than one on the homebrew design sub-forum, your entry will be considered invalid. If you do make a specific thread for you class, please mention its involvement to the competition in that thread. If you use external formatting resources such as Homebrewery, or GMBinder it is recommended that you also create a PDF of the content and share it here.
4) You may use other homebrew content (such as feats, spells, magical items and monsters) or even features to supplement your class, provided you have permission from the original creator and provide links to the source. Failure to receive permission from the original creation will disqualify you from entry in the current contest.
5) Your class must have fully completed mechanics and descriptions for it to be valid. Entries are due by 11:59 PM Central Time on the deadline. Any submissions after this point are invalid. No changes can be made to your class while voting is taking place. Failure to comply with the previous rule will result in disqualification.
6) Any content which has been declared invalid by the rules above cannot be voted for, but you may decide to remove it from the contest and create another class instead. If you are disqualified then you are not allowed to enter any more homebrew for this competition, though you may still vote and later enter the next competition.
7) Please note that misunderstandings occur, if you break a rule which results in disqualification it might be excused if you can convince the group that it was a result of confusion over the rules.

Contests stay up for 8 weeks unless an extension is requested by participants. Voting threads then go up for 3 weeks before the next contest begins.


Dragons (What it says on the face.)
Heroes from Myths (Take a specific figure from myth, folklore, or cultural stories, like Heracles or the Monkey King or even Paul Bunyan, and make it a class.)
Divine Judgment (Whether you are the long arm of your god or just an unfortunate soul cursed by the divines.)
Other Media (Games, books, comics, movies, music, theater, even other TTRPGS).
Breakfast Cereal Mascots (Current or historical.)
Be Your Own Class (Turn an existing subclass into a feature-complete base class of its own.)
Not in Kansas Anymore (You can't use the same core damage or spell progression as any of the core classes.)

Also note that themes that have not been used in at least six contests (anything up to Magic Without Slots) are also eligible for voting.

[Damon_Tor]

The Spellslinger (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24979554&postcount=2) is ready for alpha testing. It's feature complete and has one complete subclass. It's lacking a spell list for now, but just assume it has access to any spell that does nothing but 1) deal damage with minor riders or 2) protect the caster. EDIT: Spell list added. If you think I missed an obvious spell, let me know.

Unlike many partial casters, the Spellslinger is intended to spend most of its time casting. They lack access to the higher level spells and spell slots, but they make much more efficient use of their lower level slots. The core abilities of the class are:
-At 5th level they can cast two 1st level spells at once using the same slot (at level 17 they can do this with 2nd level spells as well). Balance-wise, consider that full casters gain 3rd level spells at this level.
-At 11th level they can cast their first level spells at-will (also increases to 2nd level level spells at level 17). This is the level where cantrips become on-par with first level damage spells, so by making the spells at-will at this level we're merely keeping them relevant. Note that this ability does not work with the ability to cast two spells at once, which requires a slot, so at this point Spellslingers will be using their first level slots to double-cast their first level spells, while the at-will versions of the spells are the single-cast variety.
-At 15th level they gain a special 15th level spell slot that can only be used to upcast 1st level spells. The slot grows with your Spellslinger level and eventually allows upcasting 2nd and 3rd level spells. The ability to cast a spell at 20th level might seem too powerful, but consider the limitations: a fireball, lightning bolt or erupting earth cast at 20th level still deals less damage than meteor swarm.

The subclass given is intended to be fairly typical, with a lot of int-based riders, keeping the class solidly dual-attribute dependent.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Psionicist (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BR9uKtVdX2Q8VgRqlu_xa2DXgSwg7___/view?usp=sharing)

Pls have a look and tell me if I'm on to something!

[MrStabby]

Thinking about making a submission - when we post a class are we allowed to add commentary to it, things like design aims etc.? I think I may have asked this for a different comptition, but can't remember the answer.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Thinking about making a submission - when we post a class are we allowed to add commentary to it, things like design aims etc.? I think I may have asked this for a different comptition, but can't remember the answer.

I usually do, you can also do that here.

[MoleMage]

Thinking about making a submission - when we post a class are we allowed to add commentary to it, things like design aims etc.? I think I may have asked this for a different comptition, but can't remember the answer.

Yeah most people have at least a concept of what their vision for the class is, some people get more specific with their goals for different features.

For this one I'm thinking of bringing back 3.5 style "weaponlike spells" (I know that spell attacks mostly cover that but still) in an Int-based Artificer-slots class. Not sure what I'd call it. Maybe Manifester?

[MrStabby]

OK, added a work in progress for the Manabound, a class based on internalising magic and using it to sustain them and enhange their physical prowess.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24984695&postcount=5

[Damon_Tor]

The Psionicist (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BR9uKtVdX2Q8VgRqlu_xa2DXgSwg7___/view?usp=sharing)

Pls have a look and tell me if I'm on to something!

Looks very promising.

The structure is interesting. The disciplines read almost like mini-subclasses, with meditations being similar to warlock invocations. I like it.

I have issues with the psi-dice multiplying alongside your proficiency bonus: I know that mirrors how the Psi Knight and Soulknife do it in Tasha's, but in fueling subclass abilities the dice are much less powerful on those classes, where on this class they are more like spell slots in power, and as written the class loses too little when they multiclass (or rather, another class gains to much by taking just a few levels). If you want to maintain the link between the number of dice and proficiency bonus for consistency with what's already been published, then the actual size of the dice needs to be much more relevant to the power of each talent than they are now.

For example, a Psion 1/Wizard 19 using Telekinetic Fling can spend 4 psi dice to hurl a huge object, dealing 4d12+4d6+IntMod Damage (45 avg) in a line attack with advantage. This is as much damage as the spell Chain Lightning, a 6th level spell. One level in a class giving what is in effect 3 additional 6th level spells isn't appropriate. But of course the Psion 20 barely does it better, using all of his daily resources to deal 8d12+IntMod damage, or 57 points of damage, 3 times daily... while the other guy has 19 levels of some other class (potentially a nearly full assortment of fullcaster slots...)

I'm not 100% sure how to fix this while leaving it in the same format as the Soulknife/Psi Knight. The best I can come up with is to treat the size of the dice as the "slot level" for disciplines.

For example, Telekinetic Fling might say "The size of the object you can fling, and thus the damage dealt and the width of the line attack, depends on the size of your psi dice: d6=small, d8=medium, d10=large, d12=huge." But even this wouldn't solve the problem, only mitigate it some.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Looks very promising.

The structure is interesting. The disciplines read almost like mini-subclasses, with meditations being similar to warlock invocations. I like it.

I have issues with the psi-dice multiplying alongside your proficiency bonus: I know that mirrors how the Psi Knight and Soulknife do it in Tasha's, but in fueling subclass abilities the dice are much less powerful on those classes, where on this class they are more like spell slots in power, and as written the class loses too little when they multiclass (or rather, another class gains to much by taking just a few levels). If you want to maintain the link between the number of dice and proficiency bonus for consistency with what's already been published, then the actual size of the dice needs to be much more relevant to the power of each talent than they are now.

For example, a Psion 1/Wizard 19 using Telekinetic Fling can spend 4 psi dice to hurl a huge object, dealing 4d12+4d6+IntMod Damage (45 avg) in a line attack with advantage. This is as much damage as the spell Chain Lightning, a 6th level spell. One level in a class giving what is in effect 3 additional 6th level spells isn't appropriate. But of course the Psion 20 barely does it better, using all of his daily resources to deal 8d12+IntMod damage, or 57 points of damage, 3 times daily... while the other guy has 19 levels of some other class (potentially a nearly full assortment of fullcaster slots...)

I'm not 100% sure how to fix this while leaving it in the same format as the Soulknife/Psi Knight. The best I can come up with is to treat the size of the dice as the "slot level" for disciplines.

For example, Telekinetic Fling might say "The size of the object you can fling, and thus the damage dealt and the width of the line attack, depends on the size of your psi dice: d6=small, d8=medium, d10=large, d12=huge." But even this wouldn't solve the problem, only mitigate it some.

Hmmm. I could limit expenditure to 1+class level/3. Math is the same but caps Multiclassers.

[Damon_Tor]

Hmmm. I could limit expenditure to 1+class level/3. Math is the same but caps Multiclassers.

It's better. But now instead of 1 level in Psion giving a guy effectively 3 6th level slots, it's giving them 12 1st level slots. Better probably, but still way out of line compared to other multiclass options.

Like I said, I'm not sure if there's a solution here apart from accepting that the psi-dice system as written for the Soulknife and Psi Knight can't sub in for spell slots in this way.

Maybe make the psi dice a sort of sorcery point equivalent? Where the talents' core functionality (damage dealt, number of targets, etc) scales based more on the class levels in some way, and then the psi dice can be used to do... well, sorcery-point type things. I'm spitballing here.

[Edea]

Finally able to try one of these, again.

How will this interact with multiclassing, if we're not going with a standard half- or third- caster (i.e. one that still gets spellcasting at 1st level)? Should we give a separate progression for that? Or do we just count them as "1/2" no matter what their slot progression actually is (I think the new Artificer class does this)?

I find myself just wanting to re-do the monk as a partial caster, NGL, but that's not particularly original, and I'm uncertain if it's even contest-legal.

[BerzerkerUnit]

It's better. But now instead of 1 level in Psion giving a guy effectively 3 6th level slots, it's giving them 12 1st level slots. Better probably, but still way out of line compared to other multiclass options.

Like I said, I'm not sure if there's a solution here apart from accepting that the psi-dice system as written for the Soulknife and Psi Knight can't sub in for spell slots in this way.

Maybe make the psi dice a sort of sorcery point equivalent? Where the talents' core functionality (damage dealt, number of targets, etc) scales based more on the class levels in some way, and then the psi dice can be used to do... well, sorcery-point type things. I'm spitballing here.

Since I don’t think anything this class has compares favorably to Shield (nothing does) and they’ve opted to delay casting, sacrifice a capstone, an upper level slot, and would be squandering actions with 1st level Psionic tricks when they could be Evil Eyeing or something, I think I can call it fixed. Not that there won’t be some really good possible combos, but I’d stack them against the heavy armor proficiency and bonus action heal a level of fighter provides and think Fighter is probably the stronger of the two.

[Morphic tide]

So, I'm chipping away at a 2/3rds progression Wilder working with both iterations of the subclass mechanics, making for the basic resource pool being class-independent. The hangup keeping me from getting the basic table down just yet is that I'm having issues working out what the full progression looks like to take every third level off of, so this post will contain that both to demonstrate differences when I do post the raw chassis and to work out what that actually looks like:



Level
Disciplines Known
Psionic Power
Psionic Talent
Psi Limit
Power Level


1
2
4d6
1d8
1
1


2
2
4d6
1d8
2
1


3
2
4d6
1d8
2
2


4
2
4d6
1d10
3
2


5
3
6d8
1d10
4
3


6
3
6d8
1d10
5
3


7
3
6d8
1d12
5
4


8
3
6d8
1d12
6
4


9
3
8d8
1d12
7
5


10
4
8d8
2d8
8
5


11
4
8d10
2d8
8
6


12
4
8d10
2d8
9
6


13
4
10d10
2d10
10
7


14
4
10d10
2d10
11
7


15
5
10d10
2d10
11
8


16
5
10d10
2d12
12
8


17
5
12d12
2d12
13
9


18
5
12d12
2d12
14
9


19
5
12d12
3d8
14
9


20
6
12d12
3d8
15
9



The thing with the Talent "Die" growing to multiple dice and becoming just "Talent" is that I'd thought out how far it could be pushed before truly "jumping", which had me think of "splitting" the die. I originally considered increasing the starting die size each time you need to split after the first, making it 1d12 -> 2d6 -> 3d8 -> 4d10, with the original 1d6 having three ticks (d8, d10, d12) before moving up, two dice having the same, three having two bumps, then you have one bump at four dice and could technically move to 5d12 if tolerating more discontinuity. To list it fully, divided by number of dice:

1d6 -> 1d8 -> 1d10 -> 1d12, +1 avg. per increase
2d6 -> 2d8 -> 2d10 -> 2d12, +2 avg. per increase, +0.5 from prior stage
3d8 -> 3d10 -> 3d12, +3 avg. per increase, +.5 from prior stage
4d10 -> 4d12, +4 avg. per increase, +1.5 from prior stage

This gives fifteen maximum ticks, far more than needed and pushing well into reviving quadratic nonsense. As I'm going with Talent being more enduring dice used in precisely the same fashion as the Psionic Dice, the splits mark it substituting a larger number of dice to make higher level Powers de-facto at will. From this, three dice means infinite 3rd-level Powers, which places very harsh design constraints even with the fact you're working from a dice pool that gives much more limited results than the innate frontloading of higher-level spells, so I can afford to gut the degrees of progression.

Those constraints aren't much an issue with how much the game still breaks down at level 17, so let's say we hit three dice in tier four. By the above, this gives a target of nine degrees of progression, right alongside the power levels, but we can make it every third level by cutting to seven degrees of progression, which can be accomplished by starting the dedicated classes at 1d8 and removing the 2d8, which adds to consistency by having each dice count breakpoint be d8s and increases the gain of the first split's average to +2.5. This gives two dice at level 10 and three at level 18, slightly off-tune with the tier shift.

Increasing the Psionic Dice size based on class levels serves well enough to have more reason for sticking to actual Psionic classes despite the dice pool being Proficiency based, increasing efficiency such that you slightly less than double per-die effect if you have the full progression, which I will probably end up representing with a CoDzilla based subclass because being 2/3rds when the subclass standard is 1/3rd is too natural a fit. Definitely going to be pretty far down the list, though. Going to be using the roll a lot, not replicating things. Higher-level output shall be about multiple instances, whether targets, areas, or uses, not getting frontloaded power. Unfortunately, not really any room to expand this beyond the subclasses, but you can't grow every progression for things not actually built to progress.

Then with Psi limit, my idea was purely 1.5x Power Level as a per-round limitation, so what you spend on your turn cuts into your off-turn Reaction power use, and you can't vomit a full burn on every part of your action economy because "full burn" is your per-turn capacity. So you're limited to 15 dice of output total at 20 for the full progression, and 10 dice for the Wilder I'm working on, being much less crazy than Paladin burst output and having a massive exponential inefficiency because of the "free" Talent dice taking the bottom of the cost out of your daily pool, so using the high-level Powers eats a huge number of your just-above-at-will Powers.

The logic on the Discipline progression is to make sure the partial progressions aren't one-trick at first level without needing to have 1st-level subclasses with Bonus Disciplines from their specialty, making it so that I can have the subclass kick in at 3rd level without 1st giving you only one thing to do from the function-oriented nature of Disciplines. Going to be starting with repurposing the Immortal to make the Natural Attack Psychic Warrior, performing much rectal excavation and looting of prior editions to furnish what is missing, like being able to bite people's faces off. The two other ideas are keying off the Avatar's rage and fear effects and implementing the Lurk as a burst setup.

...And just so the lot of you are aware, I actually typed this before filling the table, reasoning out the needed progression before writing it. Because that's the point of the post, to work out the full progression so I can scale it back to 2/3rds and get the basic chassis with the subsystem mechanics posted. I'm actually almost tempted to make a separate thread for it just to go after something else like Rune Magic because of how many people are doing Psionics, but I've already spent hours on this and it's a fundamentally different mode of operation from anyone else, so...

[Damon_Tor]

Three subclasses done on the Spellslinger, ready to PEACH. I may add a fourth subclass dedicated to psychic damage, but I'll think more on that.

The class was partially inspired by this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?625520-Psionic-Class-Competition-Design-the-Railgun-Class!&highlight=railgun), a guy looking for a homebrew class that could operate like the character from Railgun. As I said in that thread, the concept would be best served by a class who can cast Catapult (or Lightning Arrow, another good option for simulating the railgun effect) with extra efficiency. This is what I've come up with, a class designed around effective use of low level spells. Naturally the effect he's looking for would use the Magnetist subclass.

[Damon_Tor]

It's interesting that we have two different takes on using psi dice as a central class feature. It's going to be difficult to avoid comparing the two.

[MrStabby]

It's interesting that we have two different takes on using psi dice as a central class feature. It's going to be difficult to avoid comparing the two.

I have been trying to avoid looking - to avoid stealing ideas (at least until my own details are more firmed up). It sounds like this needn't be a worry!

As for my own - I think it is mostly there. A level 15 ability that might need tweaking/rebuilding, some balance checks (well all the balance checks need to be done!) and all of my design notes/intent to be added (so you can see just how far wrong I went from my stated aims).

I am also thinking to write some class specific spells as well. That may depend on available time.

[Snowben Gaming]

Alright, after a week of work, my entry: the Occultist (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24983612&postcount=4) is up and running limping... mostly. The base class and one two subclass are done.

The spell list isn't going to have much purely offensive stuff on it, its mostly going to be illusion/enchantment spells with some necromancy, transmutation, divination and probably a couple of conjuration spells as the predominant types (although there probably will be a couple of evocation and abjuration spells thrown in there).

EDIT: Spell list is up

Talismans are x per long rest use with x depending on the strength of the talisman (the stronger the effect, the less uses) with stronger talismans requiring a high occultist level similar to warlock invocations.

Daemonology (the completed subclass) is a summoner.
Far Realms is the most offensive subclass, focusing on dealing and resisting psychic damage.
Prophecy is going to be a buffer with access to extra divination spells.

This is my first homebrew class, so its probably not that good tbh, but I'm fairly happy with how it turned out.

[MrStabby]

I have just been doing a calibration excercise...

Now I might want to recheck my calculations but it looks like I seriously lowballed the power on my efforts. I guess we have time for some major revisions.

It turns out that when you compare against other classes al those little abilities they get, like fighting styles and martial weapon proficiencies all add up.

[BerzerkerUnit]

It's interesting that we have two different takes on using psi dice as a central class feature. It's going to be difficult to avoid comparing the two.

I’m not sure how it will pan out, but I think mine will end up with a 4e Psion feel.

[sengmeng]

The Street Mage is complete. PEACHes welcome.

[Damon_Tor]

The Street Mage is complete. PEACHes welcome.

I feel like it needs more to distinguish it from an Arcane Trickster, conceptually and mechanically. As written, this feels like a replacement for the Arcane Trickster as a concept: if that's what you were going for I guess that's okay. It's well designed and would be fun to play, so you aren't getting low marks from me on that front.

[sengmeng]

I feel like it needs more to distinguish it from an Arcane Trickster, conceptually and mechanically. As written, this feels like a replacement for the Arcane Trickster as a concept: if that's what you were going for I guess that's okay. It's well designed and would be fun to play, so you aren't getting low marks from me on that front.

I've thought about your statement and I appreciate the feedback. I think you're right, and I'm not upset that it isn't significantly different from the arcane trickster, except in ratio of spellcaster to roguey-ness. That's really what I've always wanted in a character, a spectrum of how much spellcasting versus how much sneakiness, but today I thought of something I may want more: the punchadin. So I open this question to the while forum: should I work to make the street mage more than he was meant to be, or should I make a Holy Punching monk/paladin?

[MrStabby]

V1.0 of the Manabound now up.



I hope to have a look at what everyone else has come up with tomorrow.

[Morphic tide]

Okay, so, finally slapped down a very rough "bleh" of the early levels and a couple Disciplines. Haven't gone over numbers at all, I'm going to just be focusing on raw mechanical showcase until I have its bases covered with two subclasses and two Disciplines for each playstyle. Not even doing beast-specific dedicated durability until I have the healing pair covered and plugged in, and I have to do those before I can do the first subclass since the entire premise of it is tanking based on the split healing function.

...And yes, I do fully realize the stupidity of what Bestial Metamorphosis is doing with the bit about becoming Permanent and allowing full spellcasting, as well as the Baleful Polymorph function. This is competing with well-leveraged Simulacra just flat-out being an extra party member to cover in your spare wands and Plane Shift sending someone off to Baator or Hades. It eats a far larger portion of your daily resources for much less comprehensively game-breaking effects than many 7th-level spells can get up to.

[Snowben Gaming]

I've thought about your statement and I appreciate the feedback. I think you're right, and I'm not upset that it isn't significantly different from the arcane trickster, except in ratio of spellcaster to roguey-ness. That's really what I've always wanted in a character, a spectrum of how much spellcasting versus how much sneakiness, but today I thought of something I may want more: the punchadin. So I open this question to the while forum: should I work to make the street mage more than he was meant to be, or should I make a Holy Punching monk/paladin?

Stick with the street mage I'd say. The next competition is Divine Judgement (as it was tied with Partial Casters in the voting from the last contest) so you could always make the punchadin then I guess.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Will update the pdf on the actual contest thread when I have the sketches complete, but here is a complete class.

Latest version (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BR9uKtVdX2Q8VgRqlu_xa2DXgSwg7___/view?usp=sharing)

[Damon_Tor]

Added multiclassing rules and a short Q&A to the Spellslinger.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Added multiclassing rules and a short Q&A to the Spellslinger.

Blerg, Forgot about Multiclassing.

[MrStabby]

Blerg, Forgot about Multiclassing.

Likewise... though I imagine I can do a near copy paste from artificer!

[BerzerkerUnit]

Psionicist (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BR9uKtVdX2Q8VgRqlu_xa2DXgSwg7___/view?usp=sharing)

Reformatted with mostly alphabetical Disciplines and Talents. Going to see if I can get a friend to playtest it.

I'm pretty happy with it over all, probably going to include some gdoc pages with duration trackers since that's the beastly part. But generally speaking, due to Action economy, you probably won't have a half dozen effects running at any given time.

Wanting to keep the variability of Psi dice relevant so they didn't become "weaker spell slots" has led to some interesting effects. I have to do the old "can it solo a black dragon" test.

I think Defense stacking with this Psionicist is solid, but it's also rather action dependent and not particularly fun in that sense. The average wizard with Mage Armor runs 15-16 and 20-21 when it matters. This is maybe 18 all the time by level 8, but requires more set up or prep to break 20. If you're all about setting up to stay up, there's a lot of strong options, particularly for the gish subclass. Come to think of it, I should maybe go back and rename it Gish... Nah, I'm not going back until I get some critiques.

I hope folks like it. The dice expenditures are reminiscent of the old Psionic Power Points, but come off a little more like 4e's Augments in variety (like enhancing a Talent gets you a stronger related effect rather than always just X+1). The difference here is you get a lot more variety in what you can do with your powers, but its also more focused on classical Psychic schtick. It's definitely not mental wizard or 3.5's kitchen sink.

My target to was to get them up to around the power of 6th level spells, but more often than a normal caster can throw them with more variable but generally more enduring effects. A lot of juice in the subclasses, particularly in the mid and late game. Plunder Destiny is a high risk/reward effect, possibly on par with Wish for a Simulacrum of the bad guy, but harder to set up, like you've probably already beaten him before you can use it.

[BerzerkerUnit]

It's interesting that we have two different takes on using psi dice as a central class feature. It's going to be difficult to avoid comparing the two.

Since mine is "done" and the mechanical underpinnings won't be influenced, I'm interested to see how the Wilder is shaking out.

(I've settled on how Psionics is going to work, subclass features and any obvious oversight in power availability are mostly where I'll change things at this point).

[Morphic tide]

Since mine is "done" and the mechanical underpinnings won't be influenced, I'm interested to see how the Wilder is shaking out.

Been drowning in a morass of other forums, binge-reading fanfics, and my usual issues with ad-hocing my way to filling tables making for murderous writer's block even for basic concepting like I'm more-or-less trapped in due to my attention span making detailed comparisons beyond my own ability, and trying to ask about the comparison points has not gotten anywhere. Inability to get comparisons breaking down where the numbers are coming from being the big thing.

Will probably get another round of edits done tomorrow (started them up already, slightly), it's way too bloody late to be putting up with my total lack of workflow.

[MrStabby]

Feedback is going to be piecemeal and somewhat all over the place... but hope to make a start. First class and first impressions...

Spellslinger

Between the first and third reading this has gone up a lot in my estimation and I like it a lot better than I did on the first read through.

So my reading of the class is that you are focussed on blasting - the class spell list seems mainly (with some exceptions) to be damaging spells or defensive spells.

I think you have possibly hit the same problem that I did with having a blasing option:

1) Blasting isn't always the best use of spell slots
2) Focussing on blasting means less versatility and the loss in power that entails
3) Blasting spells don't really scale well as an action usage

Fixing this then means you need AWESOME class features to compensate compared to other spellcasters.

I think that you have done this very smoothly. The 2/3rds casting progression means the gap between this and a full caster is actually pretty small. The gap opens up more at higher levels so you can dodge having to put too much in the lower levels and making it a dangerous dip for multiclassing.

Dex as the casting stat kind of makes sense for the class description but it doesn't really ring true for some spells. Throwing a firebolt makes sense with dex. Determining the con save for a moonbeam spell... less so. I wonder if you might keep Int as the casting stat but give an ability to allow dex to be used for any spell that uses an attack roll? That way you can still have a defensively strong caster if you want to go down that route (and all the advantage that can come from beeing good at hiding etc.).

Critical cast: Fine and it is not overpowered on average. My worry comes from a fun perspective; you have a non-trivial chance of just ending some fights in a way that critical hits on attacks don't as spells tend to pack more max damage per effect. Add to this that any magic resistance or legendary saves may feel doubly frustrating from this ability. I kind of wouldn't sweat it as a small ability, but just my thinking.

Aptitude - will look seperately

Spell sling - If I am reading this right, this is nuts. So you can cast Aganazaar's Scorcher (for example) from a second level spell slot. Then cast it again using the same slot and the same action... for 6d8 damage in an area of effect from a level 2 spell slot... Hit level 7 and you can fireball twice from a level 3 spell slot for 16d6 damage? Then maybe even add subclass bonusses on top. This seems so over the top and dominating in Tier 2 that I assume I am misreading it.

Fire at Will - Unlimited shield and absorb elements? I think this is a bit over the top in this regard. Maybe if it were limited to spells that need an action to cast it might be OK? Actually it is still probably a bit strong.

Limit breaker - only once per day, but it is still potentially pretty dangerous, not least because spell sling lets you cast two spells out of this slot. At the level you get it you can then be chromatic orbing or burning hands for 34d6 damage. Still, not as egregious as magic missile for obscene damage... and with the ability on classes like the hexblade/hexblade's curse to bust any instance of damage this could be exceptionally dangerous. Also, bear in mind that the Ravnica backgrounds and Eberron races can add unexpected spells to the class spell list so you might need to be somewhat prepared. Even something bland like Armour of Agathys from Mark of Warding dwarf becomes a real powerhouse. Or how about sleep for 25d8 worth of creatures falling asleep? Be careful of multiclassing or alternative spell lists is what I am saying.

Arcane wellspring - well everything is pretty broken at this level so there is a lot of lattitude. This is probably fine. Still, if you pick up spells like spiritual weapon from another class then you have a pretty fun massively powerful summoned weapon.

Limit smasher... hmm. Not much more powerful than 1st level spells on the spell list... but there are potentially some dangerous options available by multiclassing or from alternative spell list that could be good.

Limitless. Yeah, its powerful, but you need some spells that are crazy upcast.



Subclasses

Magneticist
A very cool subclass as a theme. I think there is a lot of fun stuff you could do here in play.

Spell list seems good but lightning arrow? I don't really get why this spell?

Magnetic propulstion: is this intended to let your spells of radius self be duplicated on allies? Or that you can pick an ally instead? If the latter then it is merely a very good ability. If the former then this is very much over the top.

Magnetic levitation: This looked pretty innocuous at first, but letting you levitate and drop people from great heights is potentially a bit unbalanced.

Magnetic Repulsion: When it gets used, this wil be a very powerful ability. It does rely on ranged weapon attacks being made.

Magnetic Impact: This is very open to interpretation. Can you push someone down stairs and they take Int damage every step of the way? It is like a free concentration free spike growth.


Thermalist
I worry about this as it focusses on two damage types that a whole class of fiends are resistant to. I mean, I guess its no worse that something like a fire focussed dragon sorcerer... except you get many fewer options for non damage spells to interact with the enemy.

The multi element spells on the spell list don't scream thermal to me either - a mix of hot and cold spells would seem a better fit?

Prolonged exposure - at higher levels the extra damage is less likely to be critical, at lower levels this will be very powerful. Given the scope to have spells hit multiple creatures, and given there is no concentration need, no activation cost, limit to uses per day etc. it seems very strong.

Antipodal Anihilation - This has me really worried about my interpretation of spell sling - hit with one spell then your next spell on the same turn deals double damage? Also, is there a time limit for this? I minute? A day? Till the next attack?

Thermal Balancing: How is this supposed to work with damage immunity? With saves for half damage? Temporary HP etc. Other damage reduction?

Temperature compensation: In reality this is probably just immunity to two elements. THe number of enemies that can do both damage type is pretty limited. Not that this is a problem; it is a nice thematic ability and immunity at this level is... a bit early but not that egregious.



Vulcanist

Another cool subclass and it does somewhat take the class in a different direction with some more controlish spells.

Lava bender: is "smashing damage" bludgeoning or force? Beware of the scribe wizard multiclass though for magic missile shenanigans. Also it makes this an attractive dip for something like a battlesmith (if bludgeoning damage from weapons gets added to).

Magmatic Emission: What defines an "area" a 5ft square? A contiguous effect from the same spell? If every 5ft square counts then spike growth is a really big deal. Like problematic... With a weaker interpretation this still gives a very nice bonus to some powerful effects.

Stoneform: fine.

Worldbreaker: Wow. This is crazy. Multiple free castings, especially with recovery of the spellbreaker ability AND extra damage AND you get it early AND you get a lot of bonus effects that apply to this?




All in all I love the theme of the class and I like a lot of the mechanics but I think it is pushing too many good abilities at too many levels. Not many dead levels. No ribon abilities... and some of the abilities are insanely powerful with so many interactions. Not being a full caster is a major cost - but a number of abilities just totally circumvent that (casting multiple spells from the same spell slot, casting spells without spell slots). Really in practice I think the only weakness is the lack of versatility in the spell list - and this is fixed too well by the character options that give you access to more abd by multiclassing.

Some of this may be my misinterpretation but I think that this needs a round of curation to clarify some wording and curtail its power - especially in tiers 2 to 3, but for a Beta version this looks pretty sweet.

[Damon_Tor]

Spell sling - If I am reading this right, this is nuts. So you can cast Aganazaar's Scorcher (for example) from a second level spell slot. Then cast it again using the same slot and the same action... for 6d8 damage in an area of effect from a level 2 spell slot... Hit level 7 and you can fireball twice from a level 3 spell slot for 16d6 damage? Then maybe even add subclass bonusses on top. This seems so over the top and dominating in Tier 2 that I assume I am misreading it.

It can only be used for first level spell slots until 17th level, where it opens up to 2nd level slots.


Limit breaker - only once per day, but it is still potentially pretty dangerous, not least because spell sling lets you cast two spells out of this slot.

Again, spell sling only works on first and (much later) second level slots.


Subclasses

Magneticist
A very cool subclass as a theme. I think there is a lot of fun stuff you could do here in play.

Spell list seems good but lightning arrow? I don't really get why this spell?

I wanted to enable cast-attack hybrids as a concept, and an electrically-charged dart makes sense for a railgun-esque character. Despite it's name, lightning arrow can be used with thrown weapons.


Magnetic propulstion: is this intended to let your spells of radius self be duplicated on allies? Or that you can pick an ally instead? If the latter then it is merely a very good ability. If the former then this is very much over the top.

I should clarify this: it only effects spells with a range of self that already have a radius. Booming Blade and Earth Tremor were the two examples I had in mind. EDIT: I clarified that this ability is intended to be used on spells with a range of "self (radius)"


Magnetic Impact: This is very open to interpretation. Can you push someone down stairs and they take Int damage every step of the way? It is like a free concentration free spike growth.

I do need to tighten up this wording. EDIT: I rewrote this ability. The damage is only dealt once per turn but now scales by the distance traveled by the objects/creatures you're moving. So instead of the ability allowing lots of little hits it allows for one big hit: it's still a good way to weaponize a spell like telekinesis, but not quite so silly in the sense that it motivates you to ping-pong the creature between lots of different surfaces/other creatures.


Lava bender: is "smashing damage" bludgeoning or force?

Bludgeoning, my error. EDIT: fixed


Magmatic Emission: What defines an "area" a 5ft square? A contiguous effect from the same spell? If every 5ft square counts then spike growth is a really big deal. Like problematic... With a weaker interpretation this still gives a very nice bonus to some powerful effects.

The damage is limited to once per turn.


Worldbreaker: Wow. This is crazy. Multiple free castings, especially with recovery of the spellbreaker ability AND extra damage AND you get it early AND you get a lot of bonus effects that apply to this?

It's just one free casting, then you have to use your limit breaker. Earthquake is a very situational spell, so I expect most of the time you'll want to use your limit breaker for Erupting Earth.


All in all I love the theme of the class and I like a lot of the mechanics but I think it is pushing too many good abilities at too many levels. Not many dead levels. No ribon abilities... and some of the abilities are insanely powerful with so many interactions. Not being a full caster is a major cost - but a number of abilities just totally circumvent that (casting multiple spells from the same spell slot, casting spells without spell slots). Really in practice I think the only weakness is the lack of versatility in the spell list - and this is fixed too well by the character options that give you access to more abd by multiclassing.

Some of this may be my misinterpretation but I think that this needs a round of curation to clarify some wording and curtail its power - especially in tiers 2 to 3, but for a Beta version this looks pretty sweet.

There are definitely some places I need tighter wording, so thanks for the review. I'm curious to hear what your reading if the power level of the class is with the understanding that spell sling is limited to 1st level spells for most of the game.

[MrStabby]

It can only be used for first level spell slots until 17th level, where it opens up to 2nd level slots.



Again, spell sling only works on first and (much later) second level slots.

Ah great. I missed that. Still avery powerful ability. It is somewhat comparable to something like quicken spell or twin spell... but free, and you can cast two leveled spells, and you can mix and match and not have them the same. Even if it is just 1st level spells this is seriously good. There is nothing wrong with seriously good class abilities though. As long as the other abilities reflect it.

I really, really think this ability can be too easily broken by the feats/races/backgrounds that give you extra spells on your spell list. A level one spell slot for a twinned dissonent whispers - or a dissonent whispers + command (with a potential reaction move AND a dash action this would almost be as good as banishment for just removing some enemies from the fight).

There are some level 1 spells that scale well enough into the late game (including non concentration spells) that this can be really potent.



I wanted to enable cast-attack hybrids as a concept, and an electrically-charged dart makes sense for a railgun-esque character. Despite it's name, lightning arrow can be used with thrown weapons.


Ah, I see that. It does make sense.



I should clarify this: it only effects spells with a range of self that already have a radius. Booming Blade and Earth Tremor were the two examples I had in mind. EDIT: I clarified that this ability is intended to be used on spells with a range of "self (radius)"


So someone takes the Ravnica Orzov background and can get a spirit guardians with radius 40ft? Even forgetting about the damage, this much halved movement radius is obscene. This ability seems to either be pretty useless, if you just use the class spell list, or monumentaly powerful if you use the options to extend it.

I ran into this problem with my submission as well - my work-around was to provide bonuses only to the spells granted by the subclass - anything added to the main class list would not be added to the specific subclass list so wouldn't get any bonuses.



I do need to tighten up this wording. EDIT: I rewrote this ability. The damage is only dealt once per turn but now scales by the distance traveled by the objects/creatures you're moving. So instead of the ability allowing lots of little hits it allows for one big hit: it's still a good way to weaponize a spell like telekinesis, but not quite so silly in the sense that it motivates you to ping-pong the creature between lots of different surfaces/other creatures.


I think this is a better way to go (still need to see the detail) but likely to be simpler, slow the game down less.




Bludgeoning, my error. EDIT: fixed



The damage is limited to once per turn.



It's just one free casting, then you have to use your limit breaker. Earthquake is a very situational spell, so I expect most of the time you'll want to use your limit breaker for Erupting Earth.



There are definitely some places I need tighter wording, so thanks for the review. I'm curious to hear what your reading if the power level of the class is with the understanding that spell sling is limited to 1st level spells for most of the game.

Even accounting for this, I think the class is still very, very much on the strong side.

Just opening the PHB at the first class there I have the barbarian as a typical not overpowered class that fulfulls a fantasy OK.

You have some really great class abilities - like rage. The really defining one.

But most of the class abilities are unremarkable:

Unarmoured defense?

Danger sense?

Reckless attack?

Fast Movement?

Feral Instinct?

Brutal Critical?

Persistent Rage?

Indomitable Might?

Primal Champion?

You get a lot of small, incremental improvements in what the class does and one, maybe two big or scaling features. I am worried that instead of a small minority of your abilities being the big flashy ones the majority of your abilities are really powerful.

Of your abilities I would say the ones in red are of the kind of power that can define a class:

Critical Cast

Spell Sling

Fire at Will

Limit Breaker

Arcane Wellspring

Limit smasher

Limitless

Limit breaker is a bit of a borderline case - it is clearly powerful, but not class defining.


And even if we look at the subclasses I think we see a little of the same.

I would say for the barbarian that the totem barbarian is probably the most popular, so a quick look at its features:

Spirit seeker

Totem spirit

Aspect of the beast

Spirit walker

Totemic attunement

Of these, I would say you have a number of out of combat or more flavour focussed abilities (or some that are just highly situational) with Totem spirit and maybe Totemic attunement standing out as actual powerful abilities.

If we compare with just your first subclass:

Magnetic propulsion (totally transforms a number of spells, potentially very open to abuse with some options)

Magnetic leviatation - a 5-fold increase is acccessible and a HUGE difference. Yes, levitate can now move 100ft in a turn. It isn't a terrible spell to begin with but this makes it pretty damn good (again no objection to good things, it is just about keeping an eye on the ratio of good to mediocre things. But it is when you get telekinesis that things get crazy... you can move a creature 150ft potentially, and swap which creatures are moved. A melee enemy has to close with the party to do ANYthing and you can effectively keep everyone away from you or pluck someone from the distance and bring them close to murder range. Normally this would be constrained by the stipulation that you cant move anyone beyond the range of the spell... but thanks to Magnetic Propulsion that can be up to 300ft. It is another good ability. Sure, confined spaces will limit this somewhat, but it still looks significant.

Magnetic repulsion is niche, but not weak. This is an unremarkable ability.

Magnetic impact - again it depends on if inside. Dropping one enemy on another from a 150ft telekinesis move now does an extra 4d6+10 damage (assuming you have maxed Int by now), which is modest, but does add up turn after turn when its just bonus damage on a control ability.

I would also say that I think this is probably your weakest subclass (in terms of power).

I guess my worry isn't just any given ability, but the cumulative effect of multiple good abilities that synergise too well together. I think individually a lot of the abilities are great and a lot of fun and are exactly the kind of thing I would love to see on more classes, but stacked together... they just seem a bit much.

Indeed some just look like better versions of other classes abilities - like the Thermalist's Prolonged Exposure compared to the draconic sorcerer's ability. Double the types of damage it can apply to, comes at half the level, and either also costs an action from the target or does even more damage. Or the vulcanist's Lave Bender ability - compare to the sorcerer which is a bonus to one roll when you cast a spell; this is also applying to attacks but can stack multiple times, turn after turn.

I get I am being picky; I really do like most of what you have here.

[Damon_Tor]

Oh I wrote it on the strong side, no doubt. Part of the issue here is that the class features have to compensate for the slower spell progression and the very focused spell list, so a direct comparison between the class features of the Spellslinger and a sorcerer or a wizard must by necessity favor the Spellslinger. Wizards have Spell Mastery and Sorcerer's have their metamagic, and the Spellslinger's features are more powerful versions of those features but applied to a weaker spell selection. The damage added features are stronger than their sorcerer or wizard equivalents because the Spellslinger is applying them to weaker spells and fewer of them.

Interactions with Eberron and Ravnica elements that allow new spells added to a class's spell list is a concern I hadn't really put much thought into. Twinning Command and Whispers doesn't immediately leap out at me as broken (sorcerers can do it, after all) but I'll revisit and see if there's a good way to limit this.

I'll probably limit Fire at Will to spells that require an action, as you suggest, at least at 11th level: I might open the feature up again with Arcane Wellspring, as that's around the point where wizards get Spell Mastery.

[Snowben Gaming]

The Occultist is now ACTUALLY playable.

I will be making more talismans, but I believe there is currently enough of them to play the class from level 1-20.

Edit: A couple of notes about the occultist:

It's kind of thematically incoherent has I had one idea when I started (low-key insanity/"I've seen worse") but then scrapped that for something else (warding of evil stuff). This process left mechanical remnants that were re-flavoured, but still somewhat feel out of place (namely Shielded Mind and Iron Mind but also Dark Secrets to a lesser extent) - I don't really want to replace these though, as I've had writer's block with these class features, so I'd rather just leave them alone for now.

Talismans that allow you to cast spells that are already on the occultist spell list may seem somewhat redundant, but they can be used by any creature, so if it's a concentration spell, you can give the talisman to an ally so they can cast it, allowing you to cast another concentration spell yourself.

There are in fact enough talismans to get you from level 1-20, although you wont have many opportunities for choice. I am currently planning on making more, although if I actually get round to doing so is another question entirely.

The class is designed to primarily be support, although it certainly does have fairly consistent ranged spell damage options, although neither of the subclasses I created actually reflect this all that well. Daemonology focuses on summoning, although I guess that is supporty but the Far Realms is actually offensive in nature (specialising in psychic damage).

[MrStabby]

Oh I wrote it on the strong side, no doubt. Part of the issue here is that the class features have to compensate for the slower spell progression and the very focused spell list, so a direct comparison between the class features of the Spellslinger and a sorcerer or a wizard must by necessity favor the Spellslinger. Wizards have Spell Mastery and Sorcerer's have their metamagic, and the Spellslinger's features are more powerful versions of those features but applied to a weaker spell selection. The damage added features are stronger than their sorcerer or wizard equivalents because the Spellslinger is applying them to weaker spells and fewer of them.

Interactions with Eberron and Ravnica elements that allow new spells added to a class's spell list is a concern I hadn't really put much thought into. Twinning Command and Whispers doesn't immediately leap out at me as broken (sorcerers can do it, after all) but I'll revisit and see if there's a good way to limit this.

I'll probably limit Fire at Will to spells that require an action, as you suggest, at least at 11th level: I might open the feature up again with Arcane Wellspring, as that's around the point where wizards get Spell Mastery.

Hmm. Having had a look at this again I think that the main class is not unreasonable. Spellslinging is powerful, but that isn't at all a reason not to like it. As a level 5 power boost it is appropriate. I think that the class really only exceeds what is reasonable in the subclasses. When I was doing some sorcerer comparisons it was with the thermalist, which might have been the issue. Inflicting vulnerability at level 6 is a massive boost (alongside spellslinging which is a glorious interaction) and the better than sorcerer damage boost at half the level from prolonged exposure.

Honestly, even these abilities are... kind of not too bad, just too soon. If you swapped the order of the abilities round so it wasn't so front loaded and the better abilities came online later then I think it would be better; Prolonged exposure at 9 and antipodal anihilation at 14 is much more reasonable.







The Occultist is now ACTUALLY playable.

I will be making more talismans, but I believe there is currently enough of them to play the class from level 1-20.

Right, lets see if I can get my head round another class...

[Damon_Tor]

Hmm. Having had a look at this again I think that the main class is not unreasonable. Spellslinging is powerful, but that isn't at all a reason not to like it. As a level 5 power boost it is appropriate. I think that the class really only exceeds what is reasonable in the subclasses. When I was doing some sorcerer comparisons it was with the thermalist, which might have been the issue. Inflicting vulnerability at level 6 is a massive boost (alongside spellslinging which is a glorious interaction) and the better than sorcerer damage boost at half the level from prolonged exposure.

Honestly, even these abilities are... kind of not too bad, just too soon. If you swapped the order of the abilities round so it wasn't so front loaded and the better abilities came online later then I think it would be better; Prolonged exposure at 9 and antipodal anihilation at 14 is much more reasonable.

That's a pretty good idea, looking into it. EDIT: Still mulling this over, but a minor nerf for now: the damage from ignited/iced happens at the end of turn, not the start. This gives the enemy the option to avoid it entirely.

I went ahead and made Fire-At-Will "1 action" only at all levels of play. At 11th level the feature is almost a ribbon, since 1st level spells deal the same damage as cantrips at that level. When Arcane Wellspring allows second level spells to be used like this at 17th level it's still mostly keeping on-par with cantrips in terms of damage, but with much better AoE abilities like Shatter.

I also decided I agree with Chromatic Orb and Dragon's Breath feeling off for the Thermalist: instead I gave them two free spells known at each of those levels (Burning Hands, Ice Knife, Aganazzar's Scorcher, and Snilloc's Snowball Storm). This is more than the other subclasses get, but since the thermalist is uniquely required to keep a least one spell of each of his two damage types current, this seems fair to me.

[Damon_Tor]

Pretty major changes to the Thermalist subclass:

Prolonged Exposure was replaced with an ability that gives you the ability to reduce fire/cold damage you take by your int mod.
Antipodal Annihilation still functions mostly the same as before, with the vulnerability no longer connected to the debuff effect of prolonged exposure. It's still very strong at at level 6, but now it's the only damage boosting feature of the subclass.
Thermal Balancing now explicitly allows the damage reduction function of the first ability to apply, resulting in a minor buff.
Temperature Compensation now lasts 1 minute, with a number of daily uses equal to your proficiency modifier.

[MrStabby]

Pretty major changes to the Thermalist subclass:

Prolonged Exposure was replaced with an ability that gives you the ability to reduce fire/cold damage you take by your int mod.
Antipodal Annihilation still functions mostly the same as before, with the vulnerability no longer connected to the debuff effect of prolonged exposure. It's still very strong at at level 6, but now it's the only damage boosting feature of the subclass.
Thermal Balancing now explicitly allows the damage reduction function of the first ability to apply, resulting in a minor buff.
Temperature Compensation now lasts 1 minute, with a number of daily uses equal to your proficiency modifier.


I have to say I am liking this a lot more; but don't just change it on my account. Other people may have very different views!

[Damon_Tor]

Changes to the Vulcanist subclass:

Lava Bender's extra fire damage is limited to once per turn.
Magmatic Emissions' extra fire damage is moved to become a part of Lava Bender.


Taken together, this means at 3rd-4th level the vulcanist deals a bit more damage, since he probably wasn't dealing damage more than once per turn anyway, and this gives him some off-turn damage sooner as enemies start their turns in his terrain effects. By 5th level when he gets Spell Sling this is basically break-even, then by 6th it's a minor nerf. The once-per-turn limitation makes the subclass slightly less multiclass-bait for martials looking to add some extra damage to all their attacks.

[Damon_Tor]

Thoughts about the Manabound-

Overall-
Fluff: Very neat concept. Sorcerer, but on purpose.
Mechanical: Perhaps a bit too much overlap with the paladin which I expect would lead to unfavorable comparisons. I really like the hit dice interactions.

Specifics-
Name: I don't love it. I don't think that D&D ever uses the term "mana" in this way and IMO it doesn't fit well. Something like "Channeler" would work better. Yes, that's a very generic name, but that's kind of the point. This is a matter of taste, however.

Hit dice: I'm going to say this should be 1d10. The class seems built to be in melee and doesn't have much to enable skirmishing. And it's too MAD to have a decent investment in CON
Light Armor Proficiency: I'm not sure why they have this. Mana Surge makes a dex build pretty suboptimal and the Unarmored Defense feature makes it kind of moot anyway.
Tool proficiency: I don't have an objection to this per se, but I don't really understand what the justification for it is in terms of the lore of the class.

Features-
Spellcasting: No major objections, except that the lack of access to spell foci will become annoying. Choosing cha as the casting stat is a very safe choice, but I'm going to step out on a limb and suggest that this might be the perfect class to be a con-based caster. It would settle several of my other objections and it would be different kind of thing than we've seen before.

Unarmored Defense: Compares favorably to other versions of the feature, except that the Manabound is already struggling to juggle its stats unlike the barbarian, and unlike the monk neither of the armor stats are an attack stat. Doubly problematic due to the 1d8 hit dice and lack of features that let you weave in and out of combat. I expect most manaborn would see a dip into a class with heavy armor proficiency as mandatory.

Consume Self: I love it. It's multiclass bait, and so maybe should be pushed back some, but it's a really cool feature.

Mana Surge: This is a very cool feature, but I feel like it's extremely restrictive in terms of what spells they can use for this. For example, a gravebound has only cause fear as a viable option for this right up to 9th level. The arcane magus can't use this feature at all until 5th level. I know you're using this restriction to try to limit Ravnica/Eberron extra spells shenanigans, but I think you're better off giving the players more options, even if some options turn out stronger than intended, rather than locking up gameplay to a single viable spell for certain characters.

One with Magic: I have an irrational dislike of d4s, so I'm likely not very objective on this, but I see no reason this shouldn't be a d6.

Seize the Threads: a lesser-wish kind of a deal? Seems okay. Did you mean "no material components" or "no costly material components"? Because if the spell can't have any material components at all that's a pretty major limitation on spell selection. I would actually probably rather see something more like "Magical Secrets" where they get a list-free spell pick, and maybe can replace it during a long rest or something, but I feel like a totally spontaneous spell pick would lead to a lot of book flipping mid-session for some players.

Subclasses-
Gravebound: This looks good, but this is in no small part because it solves some of the issues I have with the base class. Spell selection is rough when it comes to spells viable for Mana Surge until 9th level, as noted above.

Faithbound: Spells have plenty of solid options for Mana Surge, so that's good. You solve the "Cure wounds is more valuable than a hit die" problem by giving them more things to do with hit dice, which is elegant. My favorite subclass.

Arboreal Guardian: Issues where at 3rd leave your only options for Mana Surge spells are spells that end when an enemy passes a save which compares poorly to the Faithbound's access to Bless. 5th level solves the problem though.

Arcane Magus: No Mana Surge spells available at all at 3rd level. Arcane disjunction is very cool. If you fix the Mana Surge issue this is my second favorite subclass.

[MrStabby]

Thoughts about the Manabound-

Overall-
Fluff: Very neat concept. Sorcerer, but on purpose.
Mechanical: Perhaps a bit too much overlap with the paladin which I expect would lead to unfavorable comparisons. I really like the hit dice interactions.

Hmm. A good point on the overlap. I envisaged a bit of a different playstyle with more of a focus on spells, but the chances are that the paladin feels like it is casting spells to most people when using lay on hands, detect good/evil, channel divinities and cleansing touch... so yeah - something to watch out for. My instinct would be to buff something the paladin doesn't have much skill in, but the Paladin just off the shelf is a nova damage dealing tank with some of the best support abilities in the game. The things left - AoE blasting and control kind of fall to the subclasses so their toes would be stepped on/be made redundant if I buffed it too much. Something nice to set it appart from the Paladin would be a good place to focus my attenton.



Specifics-
Name: I don't love it. I don't think that D&D ever uses the term "mana" in this way and IMO it doesn't fit well. Something like "Channeler" would work better. Yes, that's a very generic name, but that's kind of the point. This is a matter of taste, however.

It is a matter of taste... however I share yours on this. I was never particularly happy with the name but couldn't find anything I actually liked. I think it is worth revisiting. Actually, I really dislike the name as well. It was a placeholder that stuck due to my lack of inspiration.




Hit dice: I'm going to say this should be 1d10. The class seems built to be in melee and doesn't have much to enable skirmishing. And it's too MAD to have a decent investment in CON
Light Armor Proficiency: I'm not sure why they have this. Mana Surge makes a dex build pretty suboptimal and the Unarmored Defense feature makes it kind of moot anyway.
Tool proficiency: I don't have an objection to this per se, but I don't really understand what the justification for it is in terms of the lore of the class.


Poor version control on my part. Light armour was more a focus on a previous version and then got kind of replaced with unarmoured defence but not updated. Likewise the tool proficiency was from a previous draft - the idea grew out of the gravebound subclass and I like the idea of crafting a phylactery from the start and your little soul casket growing in power with you - then I liked the generalised idea of anything crafted, then thought it would be cool if you could store your essence in something more abstract like a song or piece of music... then pretty much just gave them a pick from a bundle of options and my poor version control caught up with me.

For the hit dice - I was on the fence and could have gone either way. I think you are right though. Conceptually I build the class round weaknesses - needing to cast spells to stay alive, more magic but at the cost of health, defence mainly through the magic. I think the weaknesses really... weakneded the class (as they should) but maybe left it a little low on these subtle passive boosts. I have been convinced it can be boosted.




Features-
Spellcasting: No major objections, except that the lack of access to spell foci will become annoying. Choosing cha as the casting stat is a very safe choice, but I'm going to step out on a limb and suggest that this might be the perfect class to be a con-based caster. It would settle several of my other objections and it would be different kind of thing than we've seen before.

Unarmored Defense: Compares favorably to other versions of the feature, except that the Manabound is already struggling to juggle its stats unlike the barbarian, and unlike the monk neither of the armor stats are an attack stat. Doubly problematic due to the 1d8 hit dice and lack of features that let you weave in and out of combat. I expect most manaborn would see a dip into a class with heavy armor proficiency as mandatory.


I think a Con based caster could work well, and it does fit the fluff well enough. I had avoided it at the start as it is a potentially very powerful casting stat, but I think the class could use a boost. With casting based on Con and moving unarmoured defence there and with the shift to a d10 hit die I think that a lot of the defence becomes more solid.

Also, I have an attachment to mental stats - I think they make for cool characters, but this might be a place to let that go!





Consume Self: I love it. It's multiclass bait, and so maybe should be pushed back some, but it's a really cool feature.

Mana Surge: This is a very cool feature, but I feel like it's extremely restrictive in terms of what spells they can use for this. For example, a gravebound has only cause fear as a viable option for this right up to 9th level. The arcane magus can't use this feature at all until 5th level. I know you're using this restriction to try to limit Ravnica/Eberron extra spells shenanigans, but I think you're better off giving the players more options, even if some options turn out stronger than intended, rather than locking up gameplay to a single viable spell for certain characters.


I saw consume self and one with magic as a closely tied pair of abilities. One takes away your healing for magical power, the other grants you healing from magical power to compensate somewhat. I had hoped to weaken the multiclass abuse potential by specifiying One with magic had to have the spells come from the binding list. In terms of the number of level 1 spells it gets you, you could get six level 1 spells per day (assuming two short rests) from a couple of levels of warlock. And given you only recover half your HD on a long rest you would need to be level 12 before this started breaking even on average over consecutive days. And it costs you your HP recovery.

Mana surge - yes its restrictive. This was where I had my worries about all the way to add other spells to the class spell list. For any class spell it was fine, but for any spell that could become a class spell or any multiclass spell it could be rough. I was thinking of spells like 8 hour hex. That said, maybe it isn't a problem. You sacrifice a lot by not shaking up what spells you are concentrating on.

I think I might relax this.


With regards to the spells per level that contribute, I didn't think it much of an issue as long as you had something... though I get that limited choices could feel very frustrating. I think that opening it up to the broader class list as well might be needed here. If nothing else magic weapon is a pretty OK, if unexciting spell that will tick the box.



One with Magic: I have an irrational dislike of d4s, so I'm likely not very objective on this, but I see no reason this shouldn't be a d6.

This may be an older version you have open. HP recovery is currently 2HP per spell level... I say currently as this is one of the areas I am looking to tune. Given a d10+con HD would probably be healing about 10 HP normally this is a steep loss; maybe 3+2 times spell level would be enough.



Seize the Threads: a lesser-wish kind of a deal? Seems okay. Did you mean "no material components" or "no costly material components"? Because if the spell can't have any material components at all that's a pretty major limitation on spell selection. I would actually probably rather see something more like "Magical Secrets" where they get a list-free spell pick, and maybe can replace it during a long rest or something, but I feel like a totally spontaneous spell pick would lead to a lot of book flipping mid-session for some players.


So I actually meant no material components at all. I am not really sure where I want to take this. I will meander a bit in my thinking.

To me, a class is cool for a number of reasons... fluff and mechanics and so on. There is also an element of what it can do as well as what it does do. A once per day ability that gives a bit of a higher level slot with massive flexability to me feels like it expands on what the class can do and therefore its feeling of awesomeness, whilst still (hopefully) curtailing somewhat what it actually does do and therefore not stepping on any other classes toes.

The feeling I was going for was a real direct, cosmological access to magic that lets you be limited only by your creativity... but I also feel it weakens the identity of the class (or subclass as I think most of the theme sits here) being so broad. And in practice I see it as a get out of jail card - your word of recall, your animate dead, your wall of force. I see this as a bit of a feature - if your healer is some combination of bard or divine soul or celestial warlock or spells known class in general, then they might not want to devote a known spell to raise dead given they intent to cast it as little as possible. Hopefully by being more valuable than a spell slot you ensure that anyone who does have any selected on their spell list will take precedence in casting it. I feel the comprable ability is actually probably the cleric's divine intervention.

I figured that you couldn't use material components as the spell was channeled through yourself rather than a spellcasting focus. I think this should be relaxed for two reasons. 1) I think the body of the character istelf should count as a spellcasting focus. 2) just think how much this will slow down play at the table: "spell X might get us out of this mess... let me look it up and see if I can cast it. Nope... what about spell Y?". Opening it up so it is easier to know, recall and find appropriate spells would be a good shift.

Maybe tying it to something you can change on a short rest would work... or maybe you pick three spells and can change these on a short rest, but it can be any of the chosen spells? Or change it alltogether?






Subclasses-
Gravebound: This looks good, but this is in no small part because it solves some of the issues I have with the base class. Spell selection is rough when it comes to spells viable for Mana Surge until 9th level, as noted above.

Faithbound: Spells have plenty of solid options for Mana Surge, so that's good. You solve the "Cure wounds is more valuable than a hit die" problem by giving them more things to do with hit dice, which is elegant. My favorite subclass.

Arboreal Guardian: Issues where at 3rd leave your only options for Mana Surge spells are spells that end when an enemy passes a save which compares poorly to the Faithbound's access to Bless. 5th level solves the problem though.

Arcane Magus: No Mana Surge spells available at all at 3rd level. Arcane disjunction is very cool. If you fix the Mana Surge issue this is my second favorite subclass.

Gravebound might need a tweak. It might need a few. Or not. I think that a lot of people, myself included, have a tendency to design for themselves - what they like. For me, I worry that this subclass is a bit passive. Lots of static abilities and buffs but not some much extra Oomph on the stuff they pro-acively do, even so far as a relatively weak spell list (3rd level spells are really the only exciting ones). But some people like this; some people play champion fighters and that is OK. Maybe I should have something that is a bit simpler to play.

But my temptation is to add something more on the cool thing to do list.



Faithbound - probably my favourite as well. Enough different abilities to never be useless, some clear strengths though and can do some unique stuff.

Arboreal Guardian - second favourite. Needs... something to deal with flyers though. Maybe earthbind on the spell list will be enough? I think the class needs a bit more diversity to it though - the spells are either poor, or they limit movement. Might be a bit one dimensional to play. Trying to not just duplicate the wizard list though. I think that some custom spells might be in order.

Arcane Magus - I find your comments here really interesting simply because they are so different to my own feelings. Not a matter of judgement, but of personal taste. This is my least favourite subclass. It felt a bit bland and generic arcane to me, missing out on a really clear theme - it was just... blasting. You liked Arcane Disjunction and thought it was cool - to me it was a needed ability to help keep some of the other spells flowing a bit longer and was about as sexy as a bigger fuel tank. Possibly a sign that I can broadly leave it be! I think I will let Mana Surge work on all spells on the spell list which puts Zephyr Strike as a viable level 1 spell (to zip round the battlefield hitting stuff with your raised strength).



Thanks for your input; a lot to change and a lot more to think about.

[Damon_Tor]

I've started the process of looking through the spells of the Spellslinger at various levels and writing new spells for the levels where I feel like the concepts aren't well represented. The first new spell is Ring of Blades, which replaces Otiluke's Resilient Sphere at the Magneticist's 4th level spell. Its like if Melf's Minute Meteors and Swift Quiver had a love child. It's not quite as good as Melf's in terms of damage because it lacks an AoE component, but it has some defensive properties which help to justify its place as a 4th level spell. I'll be adding more spells here and there as we approach our deadline. I'll make sure there's at least one ice damage spell at each level for the thermalist (and an icey-melee cantrip in the vein of Greenflame Blade and Booming Blade) and I'll probably add a few more earth-bender-y damage spells spattered through the levels.

Also, I gave the magneticist Mage Hand as a bonus spell. I didn't want to give the class in general too many good utility spells, but it's a little silly if the magneticist can't do basic at-will telekinesis.

EDIT: Several more new spells added which are thematically appropriate for the Vulcanist. I'll continue to add more as I have time.

Earth Strike is a second level spell that functions kind of like Booming Blade in that a melee weapon attack is a part of casting the spell, with bonus damage, knockback and prone. Great for a vulcanist who wants to knock a guy back into his difficult terrain and keep him there. A spellslinger will likely want to use a staff enchanted with Shillelagh for this.
Fissure is a 5th level spell that creates a 15 by 60 crevasse in the ground, 20 feet deep, the interior of which is difficult terrain. It also deals bludgeoning damage when it forms, as well as falling damage to creatures who don't pass the dex save to jump out of the area. The spell is instantaneous, and the crack in the ground is new landscape feature.
Fist of the Earth is a 7th level spell and summons a huge pillar of stone. The spell has a "relaxed" mode where you can call it up slow if you just want a little elevator ride, but when cast offensively, it deals damage when the pillar hits a guy and again when it either slams the guy into the ceiling or launches them into the air to fall back to the ground. If you manage to pin a guy between the pillar and the ceiling it becomes a restraining spell which holds them there and continues to crush them until they manage to wiggle free or until the spell ends the pillar slowly sinks back into the ground.


EDIT2: Another round of new spells:
Frostforged Blade is the booming-blade-esque ice cantrip I mentioned, and it has the opposite effect from Booming Blade, dealing its bonus damage if you don't move from the spot you're in. Its damage is lower than the similar spells because in my opinion forcing someone to move is inherently more powerful than forcing someone not to for several reasons.
Iron Binding is a second level spell with a one-time damage effect as you levitate a weaponized slap-bracelet at someone, then choose from a menu of effects depending on what body parts you've shackled. Effects are generally softer control than similar spells like Maximilian's Earthen Grasp or Ensnaring Strike which restrain the target, but Iron Binding is neat in that it requires no concentration: once you've bent the rebar around the other guy's wrists or ankles it stays like that until it or one of it's pals unbends it. Combos nicely with magneticist spells and abilities which gain some benefit from targets wearing metal.
Cryogenesis is a high-level single-target ice-based DoT with a disable effect that begins as rather mild but becomes more powerful as the target fails more and more of its saves.
Magnetic Conflux is a situationally powerful AoE control effect. It can be a mass-disarm against a bunch of guys with metal weapons, but it's a much more potent control and damage spell against creatures made of or wearing metal. At this point in the game (It's a 7th level spell) you are Magneto and anybody who wears metal around you should feel dumb.

[Damon_Tor]

Thoughts on the Occultist:

Generally: I like it a lot. I feel like you should simplify the mechanics and broaden the fluff.

I like the core mechanic, talisman creation. It's cool and versatile. A class built from the ground up as the "Spell Storing Item" class is neat.

In terms of the fluff, I'm not really buying the connection between talisman creation and forbidden lore. Again, I like the mechanics behind the talismans, but I still don't see why it's an ability unique to the guys who read from the forbidden section of the library. If you free the core class from this overspecific roleplay niche your subclasses would be free to explore more varied themes.

I'm not at all sure why the spell progression switches to Mystic Arcanum halfway through. For warlocks, this makes sense as a way to limit their higher level spells to 1/day where their lower slots regenerate when they take their lunch break, but the Occultist has daily slots at all levels. If this is to limit their talismans to only work with 1st-5th level spell slots... well, just say you can only use 1st-5th level slots to make talismans. No need for a second system to track.

To the specific talismans, in general I don't really see why you need multiple types: almost all of them are, to one degree or another, the equivalent of a Talisman of Spell Storage. Does the Talisman of Anti-Magic really need its own entry? Do we really need a Talisman of Anti-Possession, a Talisman of Protection, and a Talisman of Spell Storing with Protection from Evil and Good? Even if they all function slightly differently in one way or another, the conceptual overlap makes them feel very redundant. My suggestion would be to eliminate the other types entirely and just build the whole feature into the Spell Storing talisman. Maybe generally allow for "upcasting" the talisman to create charges (as implemented currently in the Talisman of Anti-Magic).

[MoleMage]

The Manifester wasn't falling together quite the way I liked. I'm thinking of continuing my Alchemy expansion (see The Elements and Hybrid Power) with a martial half-alchemist called the Grenadier. Thoughts? I know it isn't traditional spellcasting so I'm trying to come up with alternate options.

[Damon_Tor]

The Manifester wasn't falling together quite the way I liked. I'm thinking of continuing my Alchemy expansion (see The Elements and Hybrid Power) with a martial half-alchemist called the Grenadier. Thoughts? I know it isn't traditional spellcasting so I'm trying to come up with alternate options.

I don't have an issue with that. Sounds rad.

[MoleMage]

Grenadier has features (other than subclass features at 3/5) up to level 10 so far. Here's a sneak peak:

Cauterize
At 2nd level, you learn how to use caustic and flammable reagents to seal a wound so that it can be cared for later. As an action, touch a creature. That creature gains temporary hit points equal to half their missing hit points plus your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). In addition, if an effect, such as bleeding, would be removed by healing granted, cauterize ends that effect. These temporary hit points last until the next time the creature completes a short or a long rest.

Cauterize has no effect on constructs, undead, or creatures with immunity or vulnerability to fire damage.

Once a creature has benefited from cauterize, that creature cannot benefit from it again until they have completed a long rest.

[Damon_Tor]

Grenadier has features (other than subclass features at 3/5) up to level 10 so far. Here's a sneak peak:

Cauterize
At 2nd level, you learn how to use caustic and flammable reagents to seal a wound so that it can be cared for later. As an action, touch a creature. That creature gains temporary hit points equal to half their missing hit points plus your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). In addition, if an effect, such as bleeding, would be removed by healing granted, cauterize ends that effect. These temporary hit points last until the next time the creature completes a short or a long rest.

Cauterize has no effect on constructs, undead, or creatures with immunity or vulnerability to fire damage.

Once a creature has benefited from cauterize, that creature cannot benefit from it again until they have completed a long rest.

Looks pretty dope. I like a "heal" effect that gets stronger the more badly damaged someone is.

A bit of an odd interaction with proper heals though: someone gets cauterized, then gets healed, they wind up with their normal max HP+half of whatever they were missing. Players with a certain mindset might consider deliberately reducing their hitpoints to 1, using cauterize on themselves, then healing themselves back up to full for 150% of their normal max HP+your int mod. I'm not sure how to eliminate such shenanigans without complex wording specifically reducing the tHP as normal healing occurs. But realistically, I don't see a strong reason why these should be tHP except for resource expenditure purposes. My suggestion would be to make it legit healing, restoring real HP, but at the cost of the targets' hit dice. After all, this isn't magic, you're applying biological science to assist the body's natural healing process, so it makes sense the body's healing resources would be taxed appropriately.

I'm not sure if "bleeding" is really modeled anywhere in 5e except I guess by the "dying" condition.

I also kind of feel like it should work on some constructs: the same process can weld them back together. Maybe limit it to "living creatures and creatures made of metal" so that non-metal constructs like flesh golems aren't healed.

[MoleMage]

Looks pretty dope. I like a "heal" effect that gets stronger the more badly damaged someone is.

A bit of an odd interaction with proper heals though: someone gets cauterized, then gets healed, they wind up with their normal max HP+half of whatever they were missing. Players with a certain mindset might consider deliberately reducing their hitpoints to 1, using cauterize on themselves, then healing themselves back up to full for 150% of their normal max HP+your int mod. I'm not sure how to eliminate such shenanigans without complex wording specifically reducing the tHP as normal healing occurs. But realistically, I don't see a strong reason why these should be tHP except for resource expenditure purposes. My suggestion would be to make it legit healing, restoring real HP, but at the cost of the targets' hit dice. After all, this isn't magic, you're applying biological science to assist the body's natural healing process, so it makes sense the body's healing resources would be taxed appropriately.

I'm not sure if "bleeding" is really modeled anywhere in 5e except I guess by the "dying" condition.

I also kind of feel like it should work on some constructs: the same process can weld them back together. Maybe limit it to "living creatures and creatures made of metal" so that non-metal constructs like flesh golems aren't healed.

My reasoning for making it not real healing was that cauterization isn't really healing (arguably it hinders proper healing because it creates burn scarring). It's only useful as a way to close a wound to prevent contamination and stop bleeding.

The bleeding thing isn't in baseline 5e that I could find (I looked after writing this) but I'm going to leave it in because I've seen a few homebrews that create it and I want to be clear. Unless I alter cauterize to be proper health, in which case it is kind of moot.

Welding constructs back together makes sense, but it sort of flies against the style of 5e to make such a narrow exception.

I ended up with everything except the 14th level Sapper feature finished yesterday, but it's not formatted yet. I'll figure that feature out and put the class up tomorrow and try to get some quick reviews for the other classes sometime next week (got plans this weekend).

[Snowben Gaming]

So I think I procrastinated about this contest so hard that my brain actually just repressed it out of my memory. Oops.

But I'm back now, so let's get back into things


Thoughts on the Occultist:

Generally: I like it a lot. I feel like you should simplify the mechanics and broaden the fluff.

I like the core mechanic, talisman creation. It's cool and versatile. A class built from the ground up as the "Spell Storing Item" class is neat.

In terms of the fluff, I'm not really buying the connection between talisman creation and forbidden lore. Again, I like the mechanics behind the talismans, but I still don't see why it's an ability unique to the guys who read from the forbidden section of the library. If you free the core class from this overspecific roleplay niche your subclasses would be free to explore more varied themes.

I'm not at all sure why the spell progression switches to Mystic Arcanum halfway through. For warlocks, this makes sense as a way to limit their higher level spells to 1/day where their lower slots regenerate when they take their lunch break, but the Occultist has daily slots at all levels. If this is to limit their talismans to only work with 1st-5th level spell slots... well, just say you can only use 1st-5th level slots to make talismans. No need for a second system to track.

To the specific talismans, in general I don't really see why you need multiple types: almost all of them are, to one degree or another, the equivalent of a Talisman of Spell Storage. Does the Talisman of Anti-Magic really need its own entry? Do we really need a Talisman of Anti-Possession, a Talisman of Protection, and a Talisman of Spell Storing with Protection from Evil and Good? Even if they all function slightly differently in one way or another, the conceptual overlap makes them feel very redundant. My suggestion would be to eliminate the other types entirely and just build the whole feature into the Spell Storing talisman. Maybe generally allow for "upcasting" the talisman to create charges (as implemented currently in the Talisman of Anti-Magic).

This makes a whole bunch of sense, the talisman system was kind of thrown onto the Occultist after I scrapped some of the original theming, so it feels rather disjointed from the rest of the class. I think the best way to fix this problem is to effectively make the talisman system into a class by itself, getting rid of the rest of the occultist entirely. But as this is effectively starting from scratch, I'm not sure how well I'll actually be able to do so with only ~2 weeks until the deadline. Additionally, I think this hypothetical class would work well if the talisman system effectively replaced normal spell casting (which would probably work better for a theme like Spells Without Slots rather than Partial Casters), so I think what I'm going to do is resign from this contest. I don't have the time to do what I want to with my class, so I'm just going to leave it, especially as stuff has been a bit hectic for me recently.

Good luck to the rest of you though!

[MoleMage]

So my life has been eventful this month (I'm buying a house) and my reviews have correspondingly been pushed back. I could maybe (no promises, the house not fully resolved) get some reviews up with a three-week extension, which would also give everyone a little extra time if they're making edits still. If anyone would like the extra time let me know, but if you all feel like you're finished, we can just close this out at the usual time and I'll give reviews on request after the contest.

[MrStabby]

So my life has been eventful this month (I'm buying a house) and my reviews have correspondingly been pushed back. I could maybe (no promises, the house not fully resolved) get some reviews up with a three-week extension, which would also give everyone a little extra time if they're making edits still. If anyone would like the extra time let me know, but if you all feel like you're finished, we can just close this out at the usual time and I'll give reviews on request after the contest.

Well I have just got my laptop working again (well a few days ago, but a lot to catch up on)... so I am massively behind on both review and refinement! Another extra week would work for me and would not begrudge a few weeks more!

[Damon_Tor]

Consider submitting an application - when we publish a class, can we add comments to it, things like design goals, etc.? I think I may have requested this for another competition, but cannot remember the answer.

I frequently add a Q&A at the end of my entries, and "sidebars" in the middle. So far nobody has complained. In general, your presentation is up to you.

[Old Harry MTX]

Sorry guys, has the contest deadline been postponed? I'm picking up an old class of mine, and I wanted to know if I could propose it.

Actually I think it is an out of contest entry, since, even if heavily modified, it is still the 2.0 version of a class that I have already posted some time ago, and does not include subclasses, so perhaps it does not meet all the requirements.

However, I wanted to propose it to you, also to get some advice.

[MoleMage]

The deadline has been extended yes. As for remakes of old content, that's allowed, as long as there's a clear difference between old and new.

[Old Harry MTX]

Ok guys, so I added my entry...

This is version 2.0 of an old class I posted some time ago. Overall it has been heavily modified, while maintaining the basic idea.

Alas, like many of my homebrew creations, the class was created to reflect the specific wishes and needs of one of my players, so there are no subclasses. Since this involves simplification during design, feel free to penalize it, I understand it perfectly! ^^

The goal of the class is to create a gish capable of using spells as if they were the maneuvers of a melee warrior, both as feeling and outcome.

To do so I tried to create a mechanic as generic as possible, to avoid having to create ad hoc spells or a specific list of spells, developing the following points:

Reducing the range of all spells to "touch", to make them "melee".
Adding the ability to replace a certain number of spell attack rolls with full melee attacks.
Adding the ability to release the effects of AOE spells directly from your body.

These features are mostly needed to make the class work, but it lacked content at the higher levels, so at some point I decided to merge it with another idea I was developing: A caster version of the Barbarian's Rage. I like how it turned out, and how it fits with the concept of this class.

At the moment I'm testing the class in a campaign where the characters are still at 3rd level, so I'm still not sure how it will evolve, but for now, the result is very satisfying. I am afraid that at high levels the class may become too OP.

I added various notes, to make the reading more immediate and, above all, to highlight the doubts I have.

I hope you enjoy!

[sengmeng]

Umm, when is the new deadline?

[Old Harry MTX]

Umm, when is the new deadline?

You're right, also because I'm continuing to make minor adjustments but I don't know if I can still make them. XD

[MoleMage]

This weekend is the last chance, new deadline is end of the day tomorrow (Sunday the 6th).

[MrStabby]

This weekend is the last chance, new deadline is end of the day tomorrow (Sunday the 6th).

UTC I presume?

[MoleMage]

UTC I presume?

On Monday I'll make a post officially calling a stop to it.

A little more technically, I'm living UTC-5 and in early contests I officially said the deadline was at midnight my own time zone, but the official end post is a little more convient for time zone differences because everyone can see it. If you're done by UTC you'll be beyond safe.

[MoleMage]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632719-D-amp-D-Base-Class-Contest-XV-Voting-Thread&p=25078675#post25078675

Day late but here is the voting thread! Next contest is Divine Judgment in three weeks if you wanted to start brainstorming for it.

[MrStabby]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632719-D-amp-D-Base-Class-Contest-XV-Voting-Thread&p=25078675#post25078675

Day late but here is the voting thread! Next contest is Divine Judgment in three weeks if you wanted to start brainstorming for it.

Oh cool. Is there a place where we can see these upcoming themes? Divine Judgement sounds pretty cool.

I think I might go for a Divine Agent class with subclasses of inquisitor, Ephor, witch Hunter and Excorcist.

[MoleMage]

Oh cool. Is there a place where we can see these upcoming themes? Divine Judgement sounds pretty cool.

I think I might go for a Divine Agent class with subclasses of inquisitor, Ephor, witch Hunter and Excorcist.

Normally we vote on themes at the same time; last time around we had a tie between Partial Casters and Divine Judgment so we're doing one after the other.

The list as of last voting thread:


You can also suggest or vote on what you would like the next contest's theme to be. Currently in the suggestion box are Dragons, Heroes from Myths, Partial Casters, Divine Judgment, Other Media, and Breakfast Cereal Mascots, but don't feel as though you need to limit your suggestions to those themes; a larger pool means more options to vote on next time. I'm also going to allow votes for any theme that hasn't been used for at least six contests (so right now that adds Who Needs Swords or Sorcery, Terror, The Elements, Doesn't Meet Expectations, Chill Out, Remix Mastery, and Magic Without Slots). If you missed a contest or had another idea for a previous theme, you may get your chance again!


Since we just did Partial Casters and are about to do Divine Judgment those are out, but after Divine Judgment enough contests will have passed to put Time and Previous Editions back in the mix (It's Time for Time and Blast from the Past) in addition to the other themes listed above. You can also suggest new ones if you see a topic missing. We've had a new theme go through all in one voting thread before when someone suggested it early on and other people agreed to it.

[MrStabby]

Normally we vote on themes at the same time; last time around we had a tie between Partial Casters and Divine Judgment so we're doing one after the other.

The list as of last voting thread:



Since we just did Partial Casters and are about to do Divine Judgment those are out, but after Divine Judgment enough contests will have passed to put Time and Previous Editions back in the mix (It's Time for Time and Blast from the Past) in addition to the other themes listed above. You can also suggest new ones if you see a topic missing. We've had a new theme go through all in one voting thread before when someone suggested it early on and other people agreed to it.

Ooh.

One thing I might throw in the ring, that I think could be interesting is a kind of fractal challenge: take a subclass, make it a class with its own subclasses. Maybe a bit prescriptive as you are chosing from a list. So you could work up a necromancer class or a hexblade class or an alchemist... each with their own subclasses.

Still, pretty excited by Divine Judgement.

[Snowben Gaming]

One thing I might throw in the ring, that I think could be interesting is a kind of fractal challenge: take a subclass, make it a class with its own subclasses. Maybe a bit prescriptive as you are chosing from a list. So you could work up a necromancer class or a hexblade class or an alchemist... each with their own subclasses.

Oooh, that's a really good idea! I'd be down for doing that.

[luuma]

I'll throw one into the ring too, which I think could really throw up some cool new concepts:
Not in Kansas Anymore. You can't use the same core damage or spell progression as any of the core classes. That means no copying rogue, or standard martial progression, martial half casters, artificer, or full casters. Power spikes must still occur at 5th/11th/17th as normal. Beyond that, go absolutely mental, and create something as-yet unseen.

Edit: also, can't wait to have a crack at Divine Judgment.

[Old Harry MTX]

Guys, I made some slight changes to the Homebrewery version of the Spellblade (nothing fancy, I added a text box with a guideline in case the DM decides to make minor changes to certain spells to make them easier for the player to use, a note related to the multiclass, and a clarification on what happens if someone fail the Constitution saving throw and lose Concentration when using the Trance feature).

Anyway, keep considering the version on the forum for voting!

[MoleMage]

Running late again but should be able to call voting and put the new contest up in a few hours. Sorry about that.

I've also added the new suggestions to the spoiler in the first post and given all the themes a little bit more detail there as well.

EDIT: I've had an ER visit today. I'm okay, or will be in a couple days at the worst. But my promised new contest thread will not be materializing tonight.

[sengmeng]

Running late again but should be able to call voting and put the new contest up in a few hours. Sorry about that.

I've also added the new suggestions to the spoiler in the first post and given all the themes a little bit more detail there as well.

EDIT: I've had an ER visit today. I'm okay, or will be in a couple days at the worst. But my promised new contest thread will not be materializing tonight.

Hope you're all right.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Running late again but should be able to call voting and put the new contest up in a few hours. Sorry about that.

I've also added the new suggestions to the spoiler in the first post and given all the themes a little bit more detail there as well.

EDIT: I've had an ER visit today. I'm okay, or will be in a couple days at the worst. But my promised new contest thread will not be materializing tonight.

A) thanks so much for doing this but
B) you take care of you first!

Stay safe!

[MrStabby]

Running late again but should be able to call voting and put the new contest up in a few hours. Sorry about that.

I've also added the new suggestions to the spoiler in the first post and given all the themes a little bit more detail there as well.

EDIT: I've had an ER visit today. I'm okay, or will be in a couple days at the worst. But my promised new contest thread will not be materializing tonight.

Oh crap, sorry to hear that. Hope you are OK and make a speedy recovery.

[MoleMage]

Okay I'm back in action, so here's the votes tally and I'll make the new chat and contest thread for Divine Judgment shortly.

We had a tie by points for 3rd place; however as sengmeng did not cast a vote and MrStabby did, MrStabby wins via the first tiebreaker.

In 3rd place, earning 5 points, we have MrStabby's Manabound! Turn hit dice into spells! Turn spells into hit points! Be the magic you wish to see in the world.

In 2nd place, earning 8 points, we have MoleMage's Grenadier! Show the world that alchemy has a practical side with bombs and enhanced ammunition.

And in 1st place, earning 10 points total, we have Damon_Tor's Spellslinger. Magic Missile never felt quite so good.

Excellent work all around everyone! We had our next contest locked in already, but we'll need a new one in a couple months so get your voting caps ready. Divine Judgment coming soon.

Votes are called and we have new threads!

Chat: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?633670-D-amp-D-Base-Class-Contest-XVI-Chat-Thread

Entry: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?633671-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XVI-Divine-Judgment

[MrStabby]

Right... I need some help with a name.

So the next class is divine Judgement. I am thinking about "nice" gods - what happend if you are judged and found innocent? Judged and found worthy? Judged and found to be in need of a reward?

I am thinking one subclass can be about this positive side of "Judgement" but I need a name. At the moment thinking "Benefactor", but its kind of rubbish. Any help appreciated!

[BerzerkerUnit]

Right... I need some help with a name.

So the next class is divine Judgement. I am thinking about "nice" gods - what happend if you are judged and found innocent? Judged and found worthy? Judged and found to be in need of a reward?

I am thinking one subclass can be about this positive side of "Judgement" but I need a name. At the moment thinking "Benefactor", but its kind of rubbish. Any help appreciated!

The_
Innocent
Exonerated
Redeemed
Boon Granted/Bearer/Carrier
Divine Vessel (this actually makes me think the Class is focused on becoming the Avatar of a god. Use pact magic, add domains, then go divine warrior straight up...)
Blessed
Worthy
Rewarded
Proven
Judged
Saint (this might bring in a broader of theme of how by default there's an expectation mortals won't meet godly expectation necessitating Grace)