Buffing Epic Feats?

[Destro2119]

So recently I have been looking at my old ELH and I realized that some feats are utterly, UTTERLY horrible compared to others. Like, Armor Skin vs Epic Spellcasting, Epic Prowess vs Multispell? Really? Not to mention how all the Great [Stat] feats are worthless, or how cannibalizing charges for wands (?) feels like a normal feat, not an epic one.

How would you buff these feats to usability/competitive enough to be an option?

[liquidformat]

Honestly I have just changed a lot of them into pre-epic feats I have been slowly working up adjusting feats (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pFwSVo331SLpKZRV_1utDb_IBKt4lwNtXlPgEgpjX8w/edit) across the board. In general feats that give static bonuses are badly designed because they quickly become irrelevant and not worth the investment.

Most of the epic mundane feats are way underpowered and are things that you should be getting access to in the teens not in epic levels where tier 1 casters can destroy the world with spells.

There are similar issues with Epic level skills only being able to replicate the effects of cantrips and first level spells. By the time you hit epic levels in skills you should start to be able to replicate some higher tiered magical effects.

From there looking at what can be done by getting martial study/stance for 9th level maneuvers and stances as your power floor for epic mundane feat power level.

[Destro2119]

Honestly I have just changed a lot of them into pre-epic feats I have been slowly working up adjusting feats (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pFwSVo331SLpKZRV_1utDb_IBKt4lwNtXlPgEgpjX8w/edit) across the board. In general feats that give static bonuses are badly designed because they quickly become irrelevant and not worth the investment.

Most of the epic mundane feats are way underpowered and are things that you should be getting access to in the teens not in epic levels where tier 1 casters can destroy the world with spells.

There are similar issues with Epic level skills only being able to replicate the effects of cantrips and first level spells. By the time you hit epic levels in skills you should start to be able to replicate some higher tiered magical effects.

From there looking at what can be done by getting martial study/stance for 9th level maneuvers and stances as your power floor for epic mundane feat power level.

So Armor skin giving +10 to AC, and the Great Stat feats giving +5/+6 to the stat?

[Maat Mons]

I'd be tempted to make any feat that gives a numeric bonus scale according to character level. Or just not have any feats that give numeric bonuses. I don't like the giant treadmill of continuously investing new resources just to keep your numbers up to where the game expects them to be.

Most epic feats, and most non-epic feats for that matter, could just be chucked in the dumpster without diminishing the game in any way. The reason Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium were such good book is that they sifted through all the mountains of crap, took the good things, and the bad things that were worth trying to fix, and left out the rest. It's a shame they never got around to doing a Feat Compendium... and a Prestige Class Compendium.

[Kazyan]

It's probably worth noting why these feats are [Epic]: epic levels are intended to scale indefinitely, so you need to have something to spend your unlimited feat slots on. Thus, for high Epic, scaling feats might not be the solution--because eventually, "how many times did you take Epic Weapon Focus" would become the only factor in whether or not you hit, with 8 times giving you no hope of hitting and 9 times making it gauranteed except on a 1.

The unlimited scaling of AC and to-hit wouldn't work anyway for obvious reasons--just look at the rest of 3.5--but you have to accept that if e.g. Epic Weapon Focus is a thing, you're committing to an attempt to make to-hit a relevant value. Similar case for Armor Skin and stuff.

[InvisibleBison]

Before you do anything to buff epic feats, you have to decide what epic play should be. Should it be the same as non-epic, but with bigger numbers? Then get rid of all the feats that expand characters' capabilities (eg, Exceptional Deflection or the automatic metamagic feats). If, on the other hand, you think epic characters should be able to do things that are fundamentally different than non-epic characters, then you should ban all the +numbers feats (You'll probably have to make a bunch of +options feats as well, especially for the martial characters).

Also, whatever you do ban Epic Spellcasting. It's either useless or ridiculously overpowered, depending on whether you use it the way it's intended to be used or the way it's capable of being used.

[Destro2119]

To be frank, I expect characters to stop being epic in an earthly sense since around level 30 or so they should be demigods or at least heroic deities. Therefore, I see no reason to not allow +numbers to tide them over until then.

[liquidformat]

So Armor skin giving +10 to AC, and the Great Stat feats giving +5/+6 to the stat?

Plus numbers isn't a horrible idea, there are times it can work well like if you are in AMF, but in general I like to try and think up things that add a bit more flare. For example right now there really isn't much of difference between Epic Prowess and Epic Weapon Focus; if you made Epic Prowess capable of letting you gain more iteratives it becomes more interesting. Still in general only getting +1 to BAB is quite the kick in the pants for an 'epic' feat.

Even ignoring Epic Spellcasting there is a monstrous difference something like Gargantuan Wild Shape and Epic Weapon Focus. One is expanding a class feature to make you more powerful and give you some more interesting options the other is giving you the middle finger. The fact that I can get more out of a first level spell than a epic feat is a major issue. If Epic Weapon Focus just gave you the ability to cast true strike x/day as a swift action on a weapon you have weapon focus for it would be a thousand times better.

Epic feats like Blinding Speed and Bane of Enemies honestly should be feats you have access to in the teens

Like I said look at what a initiator is capable of doing to get some ideas you can even look at maneuvers/stances from level 5 to 9, those should be the floor of the power epic mundane feats should be capable of.

[Maat Mons]

On the subject of what epic should be, I'd say it definitely shouldn't be non-epic with bigger numbers. In fact, I'd say no levels should be lower-levels with bigger numbers. So the -teen levels shouldn't be the pre-teen levels with higher numbers. High-epic shouldn't be low-epic with bigger numbers. Et cetera.

I recognize that it's impossible to make a completely uncapped system without eventually falling into a repeating pattern. And that "repeating pattern" is really just another way of saying "bigger and bigger numbers." And since just scaling up numbers eventually either leads to things becoming boring, or different people's numbers being so different that they can't meaningfully compete, or both of those things at the same time... well epic really shot itself in the foot from the outset, when they decided to remove the level cap.

Actually, you don't even have to go into epic to see how this problem unfolds. Martial characters, typically, start out at 1st level hitting things with sticks, and finish out at 20th level still hitting things with sticks. They're playing scaled-up low-level characters in high-level games. I think we're all familiar with the imbalance this causes when they're teamed up with actual high-level character, doing actual high-level things. Or when they're set against actual high-level threats, instead of bags of hit points that plink away at them with hit-point damage. More importantly though, I think we're all familiar with how boring it can be to play through 20 level with a character who never changes in any meaningful way. A character who only ever gets bigger numbers, treading water against the bigger numbers their enemies keep getting too.

[Destro2119]

Plus numbers isn't a horrible idea, there are times it can work well like if you are in AMF, but in general I like to try and think up things that add a bit more flare. For example right now there really isn't much of difference between Epic Prowess and Epic Weapon Focus; if you made Epic Prowess capable of letting you gain more iteratives it becomes more interesting. Still in general only getting +1 to BAB is quite the kick in the pants for an 'epic' feat.

Even ignoring Epic Spellcasting there is a monstrous difference something like Gargantuan Wild Shape and Epic Weapon Focus. One is expanding a class feature to make you more powerful and give you some more interesting options the other is giving you the middle finger. The fact that I can get more out of a first level spell than a epic feat is a major issue. If Epic Weapon Focus just gave you the ability to cast true strike x/day as a swift action on a weapon you have weapon focus for it would be a thousand times better.

Epic feats like Blinding Speed and Bane of Enemies honestly should be feats you have access to in the teens

Like I said look at what a initiator is capable of doing to get some ideas you can even look at maneuvers/stances from level 5 to 9, those should be the floor of the power epic mundane feats should be capable of.

BTW, on your googledoc, how exactly are the adjusted feats adjusted?

Also, I'm thinking of making a new category of feats called "Automatic feats" to categorize the feats that should be ported to game mechanics.

[Destro2119]

Also, give an example of feats you would consider to be epic, whether they are homebrew or official (other than the Epic Spellcasting ones).

[liquidformat]

BTW, on your googledoc, how exactly are the adjusted feats adjusted?

Also, I'm thinking of making a new category of feats called "Automatic feats" to categorize the feats that should be ported to game mechanics.

So if you look over the doc I have three categories, the first are 'Feats ported to mechanics' once you hit the prerequisites like having +1 BAB and str 13 or great you can power attack.

The second group is 'Updated Feats' some of those are a combination of feats smashed together like combining two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, and greater two weapon fighting; while others are completely new feats for all intents and purposes like Phalanx fighting and Einhander.

The last group is 'Used to be Epic Feats', I have moved them down into pre-epic, adjusting their prerequisites and in some cases adjusting their benefits.

There is also a smattering of new feats in there.


Also, give an example of feats you would consider to be epic, whether they are homebrew or official (other than the Epic Spellcasting ones).

A feat that allows you to create an AMF centered on yourself X/day seems like it could work for some epic beatsticks. Similarly a feat that allows you to cast True Strike as a swift action X/day might either be high teens or epic. Both of these would be on the low end of what you expect to be able to do in epic levels.

Another idea might be allowing you to activate an ability similar to time stop and Time Stands Still with prerequisites of improved initiative and blinding speed, and a high Dex score say 25+. Heck you could pretty much just use Time Stands Still exactly and be able to do it a number of times per day equal to your dex mod.

[RNightstalker]

Also, give an example of feats you would consider to be epic, whether they are homebrew or official (other than the Epic Spellcasting ones).

I would say Distant Shot: even modern-day snipers are still limited by range.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A feat that allows you to create an AMF centered on yourself X/day seems like it could work for some epic beatsticks.Given that there are lots of ways to get around AMFs and that AMFs absolutely ruin most beatsticks due to almost all of their power coming from magic items, this seems more like a way to kill them than anything. Useful in very specific situations (such as the party's barbarian grappling with a demilich that doesn't have any contingencies for an AMF, which is so specific as to be unbelievable, given how easy, cheap, and cost-effective protections vs AMFs are), but not otherwise.

At the very least, make it so that the AMF doesn't affect the user's magic items. (Or the user could be smart and get devices [Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood] instead of magic items, I guess.)

[AvatarVecna]

Here's some (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?139786-Epic-Feat-Improvement-3-5-PEACH&p=7764632#post7764632) I've seen get allowed in a game. Not super-powered up, but upgrades for a good number of them. Here's TempestFury's changes (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?348622-Epic-Feats-(General-amp-Class-Specific)-PEACH), which I've also seen allowed here and there. Improved Spell Capacity Redux (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?108178-Improved-Spell-Capacity-Redux) is also popular, although tbh that's one of those feats that very much didn't need an upgrade so it's mostly a power wank thing.

[liquidformat]

I would say Distant Shot: even modern-day snipers are still limited by range.

And yet tier 1 casters can pull scry and die tactics, go to different planes, enslave demons, and so on before level 20. Modern day peoples are ish represented by E6 for capability. Given those two benchmarks I am not seeing why a mundane in the mid to high teens which should be on the high side of super hero capability shouldn't be able to replicate Distant Shot.


Given that there are lots of ways to get around AMFs and that AMFs absolutely ruin most beatsticks due to almost all of their power coming from magic items, this seems more like a way to kill them than anything. Useful in very specific situations (such as the party's barbarian grappling with a demilich that doesn't have any contingencies for an AMF, which is so specific as to be unbelievable, given how easy, cheap, and cost-effective protections vs AMFs are), but not otherwise.

At the very least, make it so that the AMF doesn't affect the user's magic items. (Or the user could be smart and get devices [Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood] instead of magic items, I guess.)

Very true, but being able to get AMF or similarly powerful spells as an Epic Feat seems inline with the power level I expect from an epic feat, not something stupid like epic weapon focus... Ghee thanks WotC I really wanted another +2 to attack with a single weapon.

[Destro2119]

And yet tier 1 casters can pull scry and die tactics, go to different planes, enslave demons, and so on before level 20. Modern day peoples are ish represented by E6 for capability. Given those two benchmarks I am not seeing why a mundane in the mid to high teens which should be on the high side of super hero capability shouldn't be able to replicate Distant Shot.



Very true, but being able to get AMF or similarly powerful spells as an Epic Feat seems inline with the power level I expect from an epic feat, not something stupid like epic weapon focus... Ghee thanks WotC I really wanted another +2 to attack with a single weapon.

We always have the dichotomy of linear vs quadratic. No matter how many numbers you tack on it will always be linear. So epic combat feats need to give fighter some POWERFUL quadratic capability. Like, cast true strike, or the strike cleaves mountains or something.

[AvatarVecna]

Having built characters for games that would at least theoretically see play deep into combat, there's generally four kinds of feats worth taking:

1) Feats that expand your capabilities, allowing you to do a new thing sufficiently well. This can include removingnrestrictions on things you can already do. The obvious examples here are things like Exceptional Deflection and Infinite Deflection.

2) Feats that just give bigger numbers, but the size of those numbers grows as your character progresses without investing resources that you weren't investing anyway. Lingering Damage is a good non-caster example - it gives more damage, but the damage it grants increases with your rogue level, just as a direct result of your Sneak Attack improving (compare this with Epic Weapon Specialization, which is +4 damage forever).

3) Feats that give a flat bonus to something you already do, but that thing is so important and advances so slowly normally that it takes a very very long time for that small bonus to become irrelevant. The example here is Superior Initiative, which is only +4 init, but because Init normally only scales with Dex, a +4 is going to be relevant deep into epic. And some people will argue that this is more of a case 2, since while the bonus itself doesn't increase with level, the extra turn you get from winning initiative means it increases your overall combat performance by one round worth of capabilities - and one round of you fighting is more valuable at lvl 100 than it is at lvl 30.

4) Feats giving a flat bonus to something that naturally increases quickly, but the bonus goven is so big that it doesn't actually matter that it's a flat bonus until deep into epic. A theoretical epic feat that gives you +20 to all attacks and can only be taken once...yeah eventually your quadeatic feats will be worth more, but it'll take so long that it'll effectively always be worth a feat slot.

I can also say from personal experience that while characters with broad capabilities tend to be the stupid broken characters, if you show up to a lvl 100 game with a bruiser who fights like a WotC fighter, except he has infinite stats...people will still whine. Paat a certain point, big numbers can make a character strong enough that you won't feel overshadowed even if you objectively are.

[RNightstalker]

And yet tier 1 casters can pull scry and die tactics, go to different planes, enslave demons, and so on before level 20. Modern day peoples are ish represented by E6 for capability. Given those two benchmarks I am not seeing why a mundane in the mid to high teens which should be on the high side of super hero capability shouldn't be able to replicate Distant Shot.


Well the question wasn't what's epic compared to tier 1 casters lol...sheesh.

[Biggus]

To be frank, I expect characters to stop being epic in an earthly sense since around level 30 or so they should be demigods or at least heroic deities. Therefore, I see no reason to not allow +numbers to tide them over until then.

If you only want epic to go to level 30, that makes things a lot simpler. Perhaps take a leaf out of 4E's book and have 3 tiers, levels 1-10, 11-20 and 21-30? A lot of the weaker epic feats could be made available at level 11, and more powerful versions available at epic. Otherwise, you're going to have a sudden jump in power at level 21, which will be difficult to balance (for example, multiclass characters will lose out due to not getting epic bonus feats).


Also, give an example of feats you would consider to be epic, whether they are homebrew or official (other than the Epic Spellcasting ones).

I asked a similar question (what would make good feats for epic mundanes?) here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?619821-Epic-feats-for-mundanes). There was also a discussion a while ago about what epic feats shouldn't be epic and what nonepic feats should be epic here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?587671-Feats-that-should-be-Epic-and-Epic-feats-that-shouldn-t-be).

Some specific ideas for noncasters:

In later 3.5 books there were quite a lot of class abilities and item powers which are swift or immediate actions. So, instead of Multispell have an epic feat available to all classes which gives an extra swift or immediate action per turn. Action economy is one of the key ways in which martials lose out to casters, this would go some way towards addressing that.

Defences against magic: evasion, mettle, ability to reroll natural 1's on saves as epic feats

Epic versions of the Mage Slayer feat chain. Maybe one to allow archers to threaten casters within 30ft and hence make them unable to cast defensively. Feats along the lines of Pierce Magical Protection which enable martials to dispel buff with a hit.

Feats which give you abilities similar to Mind Blank, Freedom of Movement and True Seeing as extraordinary abilities

Ability to ignore Freedom of Movement for grapplers

Reducing the penalty on iterative attacks. Perhaps improve your 4th attack to -10, then your 3rd attack to -5, then your 4th attack to -5, something like that

Extraordinary Reflexes which enables you to make a Reflex save to avoid being caught by certain effects which don't normally allow one, such as Forcecage or Black Tentacles

Ability to make a full attack or flurry of blows as a standard action

More generally:

Perhaps make certain templates available as epic feats.

Immunity to a specific condition or energy type

Wings

[PoeticallyPsyco]

For a specific one that sticks in my memory, Dire Charge [Epic] is an embarrassment compared to pre-epic options. It should straight up give you Pounce (Ex); if you already have Pounce, perhaps it could give you an extra 2-3 attacks at full BAB when charging, or just let you make an extra full attack at the end of a charge in the first round of combat.

EDIT: Actually, a strict reading of the feat... already lets you do that last one. Nothing that would prevent it from stacking with Pounce. That's kinda cool.

Improved Combat Reflexes could perhaps use a buff as well; there are relatively few situations where you need extra AoOs if your Dex is already high enough to qualify for the feat. Maybe combine it with Infinite Deflection?

[RNightstalker]

Defences against magic: evasion, mettle, ability to reroll natural 1's on saves as epic feats


Complete Scoundrel already has luck feats that let you count natural 1's as a natural 20, without rerolling.

[rel]

I'm not sold on feats as a way to mod the 3.x system but I'll give it a go

Merciless Savagery
Prereq: BAB +16, 21 HD
Benefit: Immediately after a successful melee or ranged attack you can expend a swift action to administer a beating so savage even the gods look away in horror.
The target must make a fort, ref or will save (your choice) DC equal to 10 + damage dealt.
On a failure your target suffers one of the following effects (your choice):

Cripple - apply any of the common conditions except dead (e.g. dazed, blind, petrified) to the target.

ruin - remove one special attack or special ability from the target including class features and monster abilities without specified typing.

dismember - remove or cripple a limb or body part from the creature. This cannot kill but removes special or natural attacks connected to the limb, destroys movement and vision modes and otherwise cripples in an expected way. A dragon with a crippled jaw cannot bite, swallow or use its breath weapon, a troll with a missing arm loses a claw attack, rend and the ability to use a two handed weapon, a roc with a missing wing loses the ability to fly and so forth.

The damage is permanent and can only be repaired by powerful magic or legendary applications of skill. In general, a check is called for, caster level or skill, with a DC equal to the initial save DC.

You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to your BAB/2-5 (3 at BAB 16, 4 at 18, 5 at 20). Note that you don't get additional BAB for levels above 20.

[liquidformat]

Well the question wasn't what's epic compared to tier 1 casters lol...sheesh.

Nor was it what's epic compared to modern day snipers Lol...sheesh.

But in fact comparing it to tier 1 casters or any casters for that matter is a better balance point than modern snipers, since you can expect to have an epic caster in your party that you don't want to be completely over shadowed by. On the other hand you won't have a 'modern' sniper on the team...

[eunwoler]

The guy who said either ban feats that are just non epics but stronger or ban feats that add new epic gameplay options is the correctest

[RNightstalker]

Nor was it what's epic compared to modern day snipers Lol...sheesh.

But in fact comparing it to tier 1 casters or any casters for that matter is a better balance point than modern snipers, since you can expect to have an epic caster in your party that you don't want to be completely over shadowed by. On the other hand you won't have a 'modern' sniper on the team...

Touche, but we technically don't have unlimited range now in modern times, which is why I believe it's applicable here. Hell modern snipers don't match up to tier 1 casters anyway, so gimme a break of that KitKat bar ok?

[Biggus]

Complete Scoundrel already has luck feats that let you count natural 1's as a natural 20, without rerolling.

Yes, only once per day per feat though. I meant like the granted power of the Pride domain, where you can reroll every time you roll a 1.