Opportunistic Piety and Divine Feats

[rrwoods]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628516-Factotum-Chameleon-character-direction/page2

Can a factotum spend turn attempts to power (for example) Divine Metamagic?

[Darg]

No. Turn undead and opportunistic piety are separate Su abilities. It's x uses per day of opportunistic piety, not uses per day of turn undead. It's like how turn/rebuke x creature that isn't undead can't be used if it specifically says that it uses some of your turn/rebuke undead uses. An example of a different cost would be the Divine Damage Reduction feat from RoS. Something that doesn't cost a turn attempt would work, like positive energy aura feat. The ability to turn undead as a prerequisite is different from the cost of turn attempts.

[bean illus]

No. Turn undead and opportunistic piety are separate Su abilities. It's x uses per day of opportunistic piety, not uses per day of turn undead. It's like how turn/rebuke x creature that isn't undead can't be used if it specifically says that it uses some of your turn/rebuke undead uses. An example of a different cost would be the Divine Damage Reduction feat from RoS. Something that doesn't cost a turn attempt would work, like positive energy aura feat. The ability to turn undead as a prerequisite is different from the cost of turn attempts.

I know that's a common interpretation. But as i read through the prerequisites (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24977161&postcount=46), i see no excluding language. In fact, i can't find a definition of turn attempts, that isn't 'daily uses of positive energy', which is what the factotum's text says. The word "attempt" is an adjective describing the turnings possible failure.

Facto even points to cleric, which points to the Turn Undead text and table. So, though there are no "turn attempts defined there, if there were, factotum would have them.

People have said no, but read text. The "ability to turn undead" is certainly something the "creature" has the ability to do a limited number of attempts per day.

[Darg]

I know that's a common interpretation. But as i read through the prerequisites (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24977161&postcount=46), i see no excluding language. In fact, i can't find a definition of turn attempts, that isn't 'daily uses of positive energy', which is what the factotum's text says. The word "attempt" is an adjective describing the turnings possible failure.

Facto even points to cleric, which points to the Turn Undead text and table. So, though there are no "turn attempts defined there, if there were, factotum would have them.

People have said no, but read text. The "ability to turn undead" is certainly something the "creature" has the ability to do a limited number of attempts per day.

As I mentioned, Factotums do gain the ability to turn undead and as such qualify for prerequisites. The issue stims from using the daily uses of Opportunistic Piety (Su) in place of daily uses of Turn Undead (Su). "Turn attempts" refer to the uses per day of Turn/Rebuke Undead (Su).

If Opportunistic Piety (Su) granted turn attempts and we followed the rabbit hole, then one use of Opportunistic Piety (Su) gives 3+Cha Mod turn attempts. This is obviously not the case. The reference to cleric is referring to your cleric turning level.

[rrwoods]

I know that's a common interpretation. But as i read through the prerequisites (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24977161&postcount=46), i see no excluding language. In fact, i can't find a definition of turn attempts, that isn't 'daily uses of positive energy', which is what the factotum's text says. The word "attempt" is an adjective describing the turnings possible failure.

Facto even points to cleric, which points to the Turn Undead text and table. So, though there are no "turn attempts defined there, if there were, factotum would have them.

People have said no, but read text. The "ability to turn undead" is certainly something the "creature" has the ability to do a limited number of attempts per day.

In your interpretation, what does “spend [x] turn attempts” mean for a factotum?

[Troacctid]

Opportunistic piety can be expended specifically to turn undead, as in, hold up a holy symbol and repel undead creatures within range. Nothing in the ability allows it to be used in place of abilities that expend uses of turn undead. Without specific text to that effect, it can't be used to power divine feats.

To put it another way, you can put an opportunistic piety in and get a turn undead out, but that output is specifically in the form of a turning check made right this second to turn undead—not in the form of a daily use of turn undead that you can use for whatever you want.

[bean illus]

As I mentioned, Factotums do gain the ability to turn undead and as such qualify for prerequisites. The issue stims from using the daily uses of Opportunistic Piety (Su) in place of daily uses of Turn Undead (Su). "Turn attempts" refer to the uses per day of Turn/Rebuke Undead (Su).

Where is a daily use of Turn Undead asked for?



If Opportunistic Piety (Su) granted turn attempts and we followed the rabbit hole, then one use of Opportunistic Piety (Su) gives 3+Cha Mod turn attempts. This is obviously not the case. The reference to cleric is referring to your cleric turning level.

Nah.


In your interpretation, what does “spend [x] turn attempts” mean for a factotum?

Facto has the ability to turn undead. They can attempt this x number per day.

Where is your definition of turn attempts that excludes facto?


Opportunistic piety can be expended specifically to turn undead, as in, hold up a holy symbol and repel undead creatures within range. Nothing in the ability allows it to be used in place of abilities that expend uses of turn undead. Without specific text to that effect, it can't be used to power divine feats.

To put it another way, you can put an opportunistic piety in and get a turn undead out, but that output is specifically in the form of a turning check made right this second to turn undead—not in the form of a daily use of turn undead that you can use for whatever you want.

That's what you say.

I say the feat ask for the ability to turn undead. Facto has that ability, as a cleric.

The feat ask for a daily attempt, which facto has.

{Scrubbed}

I apologize if my choice of words was un-preferred. I'll attempt it differently.

I would hope that rules quotes can be used to back opinions. I have supplied quotes, and can't find the terms some folk keep presenting as decisive.

[rrwoods]

Facto has the ability to turn undead. They can attempt this x number per day.

Where is your definition of turn attempts that excludes facto?
I don’t know that I have a definition. I’m actually not even trying to argue in favor of either position. I’m trying to understand the position you hold.

As I understand it, what you’re saying is that for a factotum to “spend a turn attempt”, they spend one daily use of opportunistic piety but not any inspiration points.

[bean illus]

I don’t know that I have a definition. I’m actually not even trying to argue in favor of either position. I’m trying to understand the position you hold.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24977161&postcount=46

There is no definition of turn attempts, other than 'the ability to attempt to turn undead', and the limited times per day.

[Elves]

"Ability to turn or rebuke undead" is more easily read as "[cap]ability" than as "has the turn undead supernatural ability".

And as your link shows, "turning undead is a supernatural ability", so there is no valid distinction to draw along those lines anyway. It is a supernatural ability, and it's one factotums have the ability to use.

What they don't have is a class feature with that name, so they don't qualify for "turn undead class feature" or "class feature: turn or rebuke undead".

So factotums can certainly take divine feats. Actually fueling feats is a little muddier. Divine feats require you to expend "one turn or rebuke attempt" while Devotion feats want "daily turn or rebuke uses".

Second one I lean against because what you technically have "uses" of is opportunistic piety. First one is perhaps a little more favorable. But the conservative reading here seems to be yes to qualification, no to fueling.

Edit: Rereading the SRD, it seems that "attempt" is baked into the terminology of turning undead. That's favorable toward fueling Divine Feats with factotum since it means you do have attempts.

[bean illus]

"Ability to turn or rebuke undead" is more easily read as "[cap]ability" than as "has the turn undead supernatural ability".

And as your link shows, "turning undead is a supernatural ability", so there is no valid distinction to draw between having it as a supernatural ability and having it otherwise. It is a supernatural ability, and it's one factotums have the ability to use.

What they don't have is a class feature with that name, so they don't qualify for "turn undead class feature" or "class feature: turn or rebuke undead".

So factotums can certainly take divine feats. Actually fueling feats is a little muddier. Divine feats require you to expend "one turn or rebuke attempt" while Devotion feats want "daily turn or rebuke uses".

Second one I lean against because what you technically have "uses" of is opportunistic piety. First one is perhaps a little more favorable. But the conservative reading here seems to be yes to qualification, no to fueling.

Edit: Rereading the SRD, it seems that "attempt" is baked into the terminology of turning undead. That's favorable toward fueling Divine Feats with OP since it means you do have attempts.

Your last point is where i ended up at. EVERY time "any creature" turns, they must attempt. Since 0 success is an option (on the chart), the turning is an attempt.

WotC absolutely knows how to write 'as a class feature', or etc, and they didn't.

Factotum absolutely has the ability to turn undead, complete with explicit reference to deity, holy symbol, positive energy, and supernatural ability.

And factotom absolutely has a limited number of daily uses, that must be expended as "attempts".

The fact that opportunistic piety can be used to fuel other holy pious purpose is nowhere addressed as disqualifying. All that seems required is the ability to turn, and daily uses of said attempts.

[Elves]

Technically I still don't think it can fuel Devotion feats, since you don't directly have "daily uses" of turn undead -- rather you have daily uses of OP, which can be used to turn undead.

But on examining the language it's clear that being mediated through another ability doesn't prevent it from fueling divine feats.

(That Piety has per-day uses doesn't bear on this though, for the same reason as above.)

[bean illus]

Technically I still don't think it can fuel Devotion feats, since you don't directly have "daily uses" of turn undead -- rather you have daily uses of OP, which can be used to turn undead.

But on examining the language it's clear that being mediated through another ability doesn't prevent it from fueling divine feats.

(That Piety has per-day uses doesn't bear on this though, for the same reason as above.)

I certainly see that as a valid "conservative" reading. Still, i can also see a reading that considers OP valid for devotion feats. Opportunistic Piety refers the reader to cleric, and then to Turn Undead, whereupon OP uses by definition become uses of the ability to turn undead.

It's certainly, as always, a DM call. For myself, i would be much more worried, if the game was littered with other creatures that turn undead, which might become overpowered if opportunistic piety is ruled to fuel devotion feats. But it isn't so.
If a liberal towards facto reading somehow made T1 and T2 more powerful, i would be forced to disallow. But facto 5 is too costly to synergize well with barely anything.

[Darg]

Opportunistic Piety refers the reader to cleric, and then to Turn Undead, whereupon OP uses by definition become uses of the ability to turn undead.

You are reading way to far into the mention of "cleric." It is not a reference to the class. It is a direct reference to the special attack entry where "your cleric level" is used to determine the turning damage and your ability to destroy undead.

If you'll notice, the cleric description of the turn undead ability specific mentions attempts to turn undead. Factotum on the other hand mentions uses per day of it's opportunistic piety. To say that factotum can use its uses per day as "attempts" to fuel divine feats is really pushing the limits of correlation. It's the same kind of reasoning that allows people to think strongheart vest to allow free hellfire usage which is not the case.

[Elves]

To say that factotum can use its uses per day as "attempts" to fuel divine feats is really pushing the limits of correlation.
The language of attempts is baked into the use of turn undead. The discussion left to have is about Devotion feats, in which case I think you're completely right.


It's the same kind of reasoning that allows people to think strongheart vest to allow free hellfire usage which is not the case.
Direct copypaste: "Any time you would take ability damage, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a mini-mum of 0."

Like some other incorrect FAQs, Sage's answer on this is the result of being put into a position of acting as errata without having the authority to change the text, so instead they bend words to reach the desired conclusion. Publishers of print RPGs are presumably grudging about errata because they don't want to devalue their books, but in the age of PDFs that's hopefully no longer an issue.

[bean illus]

The language of attempts is baked into the use of turn undead. The discussion left to have is about Devotion feats, in which case I think you're completely right.



I'm going to snip and tuck a few quotes here. I'm confident that you know where to find the full text.


... you can ... turn undead. ... you can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom bonus ...

If you use this ability to turn undead, you act as a cleric of a level equal to your factotum level.

Here's the line from travel devo:


If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each two daily turn or rebuke uses you expend.

It seems that "use", like "attempt", is baked into the "the ability to turn or rebuke undead".
Ironically, though there are zero instances of the term "use" in either the Cleric or the Turn Undead entries, the Factotum entry has seven instances of "use".

I have been wondering, why did wotc bother adding this line?


DIVINE FEATS

... have as a prerequisite the ability to turn or rebuke undead.
... they are open to clerics, paladins of 3rd level or higher, and a member of any prestige class or any creature that has that ability.


It would be SO easy to exclude every body except divine caster level 1, for example. Why didn't they?

Is there any examples of creatures with the abilty to turn undead that don’t have daily uses? What about creatures that have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, that are excluded from domain and divine feats?

I still see no exclusionary language for factotum's use of divine AND domain feats

[Darg]

I still see no exclusionary language for factotum's use of divine AND domain feats

Because the ability to do something is different from the actual ability. Uses per day refers to the actual ability.

If OP works to fuel the feats, what prevents a binder from getting unlimited uses of the feats? Nothing does. As the feats spend your uses instead of requiring you to use the ability, the "cooldown" period has no effect. Anima mage = infinite metamagic spells for free.

[Elves]

there are zero instances of the term "use" in either the Cleric or the Turn Undead entries
I don't see how the term is "baked in" if the ability doesn't mention it.
+ even were it used, it is not baked into your actual use of it the way that "attempt" is.


If you use this ability to turn undead
you can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom bonus
"this ability" is Opportunistic Piety in both cases, not turn undead.


I have been wondering, why did wotc bother adding this line?
That's about [Divine] not [Domain]. And is only about taking the feats, not using them.

More interesting, since we now know it does work with divine, are there any divine feats worthwhile for a fac with no divine casting. Maybe the miss chance one.

[Troacctid]

we now know it does work with divine,
That's an odd way of saying "I've now decided on my personal favorite interpretation of what has proven to be a highly contentious issue."

[Elves]

That's an odd way of saying "I've now decided on my personal favorite interpretation of what has proven to be a highly contentious issue."
An attempt to turn is inherently an attempt. Factotum can attempt. Divine feats want you to expend attempts. What's the argument against?

[Troacctid]

An attempt to turn is inherently an attempt. Factotum can attempt. Divine feats want you to expend attempts. What's the argument against?
It's already been presented upthread, and I haven't seen any RAW that contradicts it, just bald assertions that the reverse is true.

https://c.tenor.com/63cU2I73fDUAAAAM/yeah-emperors-groove.gif

[Elves]

Nothing in the ability allows it to be used in place of abilities that expend uses of turn undead. Without specific text to that effect, it can't be used to power divine feats.
Except...there is no such assertion in any turn undead ability anywhere. The divine feats themselves are what allow you to use turn undead for another purpose.

[Troacctid]

Except...there is no such assertion in any turn undead ability anywhere. The divine feats themselves are what allow you to use turn undead for another purpose.
Sure there is. Multiple turn undead variants include explicit language allowing them to be used in place of turn undead for divine feats and similar effects. Opportunistic piety does not.

[Elves]

Sure there is. Multiple turn undead variants include explicit language allowing them to be used in place of turn undead for divine feats and similar effects. Opportunistic piety does not.
Glossing over the important part: it's the divine feats themselves that give you the alternate use for that ability. If there is some note about divine feats in a PRC feature somewhere, it's helper text not mechanical text.

[Troacctid]

Glossing over the important part: it's the divine feats themselves that give you the alternate use for that ability. If there is some note about divine feats in a PRC feature somewhere, it's helper text not mechanical text.
No divine feat, as far as I'm aware, mentions opportunistic piety.

[Elves]

No, they mention turn attempts. A fac can attempt to turn undead. "Attempt" is inherent in turning.

[bean illus]

I don't know Binder, or Anima Mage. Can someone show me the "ability to turn undead" ability, or how they get it?

[Troacctid]

No, they mention turn attempts. A fac can attempt to turn undead. "Attempt" is inherent in turning.
No it isn't. A factotum has an ability other than turn or rebuke undead that allows them to perform a turning. You're conflating the action of turning or rebuking undead with the ability of the same name. They're two separate things. Divine feats care about the ability, not the action.

[XionUnborn01]

All I see is that one of the uses of OP is to turn undead, which you do as a cleric if your level. I don't see anywhere where you actually have uses of turn/rebuke undead. Without rules text saying these actually count as Turn/Rebuke attempts I honestly don't see how someone even gets to that conclusion.

Do they qualify for feats that require the ability to Turn/Rebuke? I don't inherently disagree with that but they'd have now way to actually fuel the feats.

[bean illus]

"any creature"
"ability to turn ... undead"

Not class feature. Not divine caster level.

I know some folks have a preferred reading. But i keep asking questions that no one has answered. Why "any creature"?

[bean illus]

All I see is that one of the uses of OP is to turn undead, which you do as a cleric if your level. I don't see anywhere where you actually have uses of turn/rebuke undead. Without rules text saying these actually count as Turn/Rebuke attempts I honestly don't see how someone even gets to that conclusion.

Do they qualify for feats that require the ability to Turn/Rebuke? I don't inherently disagree with that but they'd have now way to actually fuel the feats.

There is no such thing as a Turn attempt. There is the ability to turn undead, and it's inherent attempt.

The feats never mention Turn/Rebuke.

[Elves]

No it isn't. A factotum has an ability other than turn or rebuke undead that allows them to perform a turning. You're conflating the action of turning or rebuking undead with the ability of the same name. They're two separate things. Divine feats care about the ability, not the action.

Factotums do not actually have the turn undead SA (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead), as a class feature or otherwise (this is why the per-day uses normally part of the SA don't apply to them), but they are capable of making turning attempts, and doing so "is a supernatural ability". What divine feats care about is a) attempts and b) the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Factotum using opportunistic piety checks both boxes.

[Troacctid]

There is no such thing as a Turn attempt. There is the ability to turn undead, and it's inherent attempt.

The feats never mention Turn/Rebuke.
I'm looking at Divine Might right now and it clearly says "spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts" and has a prerequisite of "turn or rebuke undead ability."


Factotums do not actually have the turn undead SA (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead), as a class feature or otherwise (this is why the per-day uses normally part of the SA don't apply to them), but they are capable of making turning attempts, and doing so "is a supernatural ability". What divine feats care about is a) attempts and b) the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Factotum using opportunistic piety checks both boxes.
https://c.tenor.com/63cU2I73fDUAAAAM/yeah-emperors-groove.gif

[Elves]

Wow, very rigorous argument.

Is there something about factotum fueling divine feats that you actually find overpowered or dysfunctional? For something that is clearly the case, I don't get what the pushback is.

[XionUnborn01]

Wow, very rigorous argument.

Is there something about factotum fueling divine feats that you actually find overpowered or dysfunctional? For something that is clearly the case, I don't get what the pushback is.

Probably because it's not clearly the case? I don't see how one ability duplicating another ability somehow means you have the ability being duplicated.

[bean illus]

I'm looking at Divine Might right now and it clearly says "spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts" and has a prerequisite of "turn or rebuke undead ability."


Yes, "turn" not "Turn".

Which the factotum has, "the ability to turn undead".

[Troacctid]

Wow, very rigorous argument.

Is there something about factotum fueling divine feats that you actually find overpowered or dysfunctional? For something that is clearly the case, I don't get what the pushback is.
There's no burden for me to present any new arguments because all you've done is repeat the same assertions I already responded to. But if you like, I could quote my previous post and we could go around in circles some more.


Which the factotum has, "the ability to turn undead".
Just because it has the ability to turn undead does not mean it has the turn or rebuke undead ability.

[Elves]

I'm looking at Divine Might right now and it clearly [...] has a prerequisite of "turn or rebuke undead ability."
It looks like the ones in Complete Warrior use that wording (Divine Might, Divine Vigor, Divine Shield), while the rest use "ability to".
The rules for Divine feats as a whole also use the "ability to" wording.
So you could treat the CWar ones as specific over general and say it doesn't work. For the rest though it should.


I don't see how one ability duplicating another ability somehow means you have the ability being duplicated.
Nothing is being duplicated. Piety is letting you turn undead.

[bean illus]

There's no burden for me to present any new arguments because all you've done is repeat the same assertions I already responded to. But if you like, I could quote my previous post and we could go around in circles some more.


Just because it has the ability to turn undead does not mean it has the turn or rebuke undead ability.

The reason i keep using quotes, is because the feat does not say what you keep saying. It says

"Prerequisite
Ability to turn undead ... ", which the factotum clearly says it has.

You don't need to respond to assertions, because I'm not making them. But your assertions might convince me, if you show me a quote that is not copied in both the factotum text, and the divine and devotion feats.

I keep looking, but all the language is the same. No reference to class ability, or divine caster, etc.

[Troacctid]

The reason i keep using quotes, is because the feat does not say what you keep saying. It says

"Prerequisite
Ability to turn undead ... ", which the factotum clearly says it has.

You don't need to respond to assertions, because I'm not making them. But your assertions might convince me, if you show me a quote that is not copied in both the factotum text, and the divine and devotion feats.

I keep looking, but all the language is the same. No reference to class ability, or divine caster, etc.
That was a direct quote.

DIVINE MIGHT [DIVINE]
You can channel energy to increase the damage you deal in combat.
Prerequisites: Str 13, turn or rebuke undead ability, Power Attack.
Benefit: As a free action, spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts to add your Charisma bonus to your weapon damage for 1 full round.

[Elves]

See above, it seems to be a quirk of the Cwar [divine] feats.
Looks like prior printings of Divine Might used the other wording which is what bean illus must be looking at.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm.

Well, let's compare. For now, let's look at:

As a free action, spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts to add your Charisma bonus to your weapon damage for 1 full round.
And then, of course, we have the ability in question:

Opportunistic Piety (Su): Factotums are legendary for the number of holy symbols, lucky trinkets, and blessed items they keep handy. As the saying goes, there are no atheists in the dungeon. Starting at 5th level, you can spend 1 inspiration point to channel divine energy as a standard action. You can use this energy to heal injuries, harm undead, or turn undead. At 5th level, you can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom bonus (if any). You gain one extra daily use of this ability at 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level. You cannot use opportunistic piety if you have exhausted your daily uses, even if you have inspiration points left to spend. If you use this ability to heal injuries, you channel positive energy to heal a living creature of a number of points of damage equal to twice your factotum level + your Int modifier. The energy will also deal the same amount of damage to undead targets.

If you use this ability to turn undead, you act as a cleric of a level equal to your factotum level. No matter what your alignment, you cannot control undead—your understanding of divine magic is too rudimentary.

And let's also add in the actual Cleric entry:

Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su)

Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells.

A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.


The feat requires that you "spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts" - Opportunistic Piety doesn't grant you those. Yes, you have an ability that you can use to attempt to turn undead, but the ability you have daily uses of is not, itself, a turn or rebuke undead ability. A cleric does have those: "A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier."

... at least that's my take on it at the moment.

[Elves]

Don't use Divine Might as the example -- that one may not work due to its different wording as described above.

Looking at the full SA entry for Turn Undead, as opposed to the cleric ability, is important because it shows us a broader use of "attempts" beyond that one line about attempts per day. In addition to several times in the body of the SRD text, a quick ctrl-f in Cchamp, CDiv etc shows several other cases where "attempts" is used clearly in reference to using the ability and not to daily uses.

What's actually happening here is that the SA text is not proofed with consideration to abilities such as the factotum's and as such creates no distinction between "attempt" as in the per-day uses granted by the SA and "attempt" as in actually using the ability. This means there's no basis to argue that all uses of the word "attempt" are subordinate to that one line about daily attempts. They're lateral with regards to it.

[Jack_Simth]

Don't use Divine Might as the example -- that one may not work due to its different wording as described above.

Looking at the full SA entry for Turn Undead, as opposed to the cleric ability, is important because it shows us a broader use of "attempts" beyond that one line about attempts per day. In addition to several times in the body of the SRD text, a quick ctrl-f in Cchamp, CDiv etc shows several other cases where "attempts" is used clearly in reference to using the ability and not to daily uses.

What's actually happening here is that the SA text is not proofed with consideration to abilities such as the factotum's and as such creates no distinction between "attempt" as in the per-day uses granted by the SA and "attempt" as in actually using the ability. This means there's no basis to argue that all uses of the word "attempt" are subordinate to that one line about daily attempts. They're lateral with regards to it.

Would you prefer I used Divine Metamagic?
When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using. For example, Jozan the cleric could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he's casting. Because you're using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn't change. "You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using"

The factotum doesn't get a pool of turning attempts - it gets a pool of opportunistic piety attempts, which it can use to turn undead (among other things).

[Elves]

I don't see that ability requiring a daily pool of turning attempts. It requires you to "spend" or "sacrifice" turn attempts, which you can.

[XionUnborn01]

I don't see that ability requiring a daily pool of turning attempts. It requires you to "spend" or "sacrifice" turn attempts, which you can.

But you can't. You dont have turn attempts, you have OP uses that can turn undead.

[Darg]

I don't know Binder, or Anima Mage. Can someone show me the "ability to turn undead" ability, or how they get it?

A binder can bind Tenebrous (http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/tenebrous) to get the ability to Turn Undead as a cleric. The quirk is that binder abilities are at-will except they generally can't be used again for a number of rounds after their use like a dragon's breath. If we want to be specific, a binder can attempt to turn undead 2,880 times per day if they don't rest or take a break. Now imagine all the divine feats that could be powered with that many attempts. The problem? It's not the cleric ability nor does it say it is.

[Elves]

But you can't. You dont have turn attempts, you have OP uses that can turn undead.

Just in the 3 books I mentioned, here are some direct command-f > command-c quotes.

When attempting to exercise their divine control over these creatures, characters make turning checks.
On a given turning attempt, you can turn no undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed the result on this table.
The evil cleric makes a turning check as if attempting to rebuke the undead.
He makes a turning check as if attempting to rebuke the undead,
You can turn or rebuke more undead with a single turning attempt. ...After adding your cleric level and Charisma modifier to your turning damage roll multiply it by 1.5.
You can turn or rebuke undead as a free action. You may still make only one turning attempt per round.
Instead of making undead run and cower, turn attempts deal positive energy damage to all undead within 30 ft. of the cleric.
Undead with turn resistance may subtract that number from the damage that they take from each turn attempt.
...the healing that evil clerics provide with their turn attempts.
You can use a rebuke or command undead attempt to animate corpses within range of your rebuke or command attempt.
You can’t animate more undead with any single attempt
turn attempts are less effective against more powerful undead
you must first attempt to turn undead
you must first attempt to rebuke undead
the amount of turning damage you deal with a successful turn attempt

Add to this a plethora of references to an action (trip, bull rush, charge, etc) as an "attempt", "attempting" a skill check, save, etc.

Because of the way the ability usually works, the standard 3+cha uses were conflated with the use of the ability. But that doesn't overrule the evident use, directly and by analogy, of "attempt" as the employment of that ability.

[Elves]

If we want to be specific, a binder can attempt to turn undead 2,880 times per day if they don't rest or take a break. Now imagine all the divine feats that could be powered with that many attempts. The problem? It's not the cleric ability nor does it say it is.

- 1, we shouldn't make RAW judgments based on desirability of the ruling. that's for errata/table rules. judgment should come after legal determination.

- In most cases, being able to fuel a divine feat once every 5 rounds isn't OP. The DMM potential is high in tandem with dweomerkeeper but mostly limited to pre-buffs (if they get dispelled, you're back to sq1) and due to 1 use at a time, can't stack different MMs. In practice of course you're also not getting anywhere close to 3k spells per day.

- there's potential for a nerfed ruling of tenebrous that gives it the daily use limit inherent in turn undead SA due to its wider-reaching wording than Opportunistic Piety. in which case the cooldown is an extra restriction.

[bean illus]

A binder can bind Tenebrous (http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/tenebrous) to get the ability to Turn Undead as a cleric.
...

Thank you.


But you can't. You dont have turn attempts, you have OP uses that can turn undead.

As has been demonstrated, there is no definition in the source (Cleric and Turn Undead, in SRD) of turn attempts. There is only the ability to turn undead, and it's inherent attempts.


...

- there's potential for a nerfed ruling of tenebrous that gives it the daily use limit inherent in turn undead SA due to its wider-reaching wording than Opportunistic Piety. in which case the cooldown is an extra restriction.

I'm not sure a nerf is required, but i thought the same thing.

I haven't combed every feat, but ...

1. Most of the good divine/devotion feats use more than one attempt. DMM shenanigans are not happening. Even DMM Extend is impossible, without a dip.
Most also have a short duration, and aren't useful if employed 5 minutes earlier.

also ...

2. Tenebrous turns "as a cleric". How does a cleric turn? 3x per day + Cha mod. It's much easier for me to see that as a specific limit on a binder's' general abilities, than to find exclusionary language in factotum.
Tenebrous could be read as having 1 use at a time, or "as a cleric", but need not be seen as 'infinite daily uses which are all available at the same time', Though RAI is difficult to know, this time i feel confident in saying that infinite divine fuel was not the intent.

* This latter seems nearly mute, if my understanding of the first is correct.



There are a lot of smart folk here, and most of them know this game better than i do. I approach this as a puzzle, that i don't fully understand yet. I hope that my limits are not frustrating to others, and that all are approaching with equal amiability.

[Darg]

2. Tenebrous turns "as a cleric". How does a cleric turn? 3x per day + Cha mod. It's much easier for me to see that as a specific limit on a binder's' general abilities, than to find exclusionary language in factotum.
Tenebrous could be read as having 1 use at a time, or "as a cleric", but need not be seen as 'infinite daily uses which are all available at the same time', Though RAI is difficult to know, this time i feel confident in saying that infinite divine fuel was not the intent.

You are misunderstanding how binder works. The abilities they get are at-will. The binder can turn all day long if they desired to. Despite the name of the ability being the same as the cleric's, it is not the same ability as there are major differences. The biggest one is that you don't get a pool of attempts per day.

"Attempt" is usually used to describe things that have a chance of failure. An example of this is the soulknife's mindblade. The word is only used to describe the chance of it not manifesting in an APF. You can only "attempt" to materialize once per round, but you can materialize it as many times as you are able (twice with move actions or as many times as the DM allows with free draw free actions at 5th).

[Elves]

The biggest one is that you don't get a pool of attempts per day.
The per-day uses are part of the turn undead SA, not just the class feature, which is where the possibility of that ruling is coming from. I wouldn't say I support it but it seems a possible interpretation.

Without that ruling, what do you view tenebrous DMM exploitation as looking like in practice?

[bean illus]

Nobody gets a "pool" of attempts. Afaik, that word isn't in the rules.

Also, specific over general could read as so, BUT ...

It doesn't matter, because as Elves and i wrote, they get 1 attempt at time. All expensive feats are out of reach.

Incidentally, the Binder Handbook mentions these as possible interpretations of the Tenebrous bind, complete with '3x/day as cleric'.
How does Tenebrous' Turn Undead ability work?

I have heard many different interpretations of this ability, I will present as many as I can think of along with how reasonable I think the interpretation is. Decide with your DM how it functions so you can plan ahead.

Option 1: Tenebrous gives you the ability to Turn Undead as a Cleric of your Binder level; therefore you can use the Turn Undead ability every 5 rounds AND you can use this ability the same number of times a Cleric can (3+Charisma). Note, Paladins use similar language in that they turn as a Cleric three levels lower and still have a stated uses whereas Binders do not and by default do not have a daily limit on their abilities. The most compelling "evidence" for this interpretation is on pg159 of the Player's Handbook, and is listed under Times per Day under Turning Checks and states that this action can be performed 3+charisma times per day. It's unclear if this is truly a rule, or just a reminder (since all the classes in the Player's Handbook turn 3 + charisma times per day). Of note, this reading definitely allows you to use divine feats and benefit from effects that increase uses per day as you are argued to have 3 plus Charisma bonus uses per day. In cases where you can trivialize the cap (by way of limitless Nightsticks or bonus feats for Extra Turning) this reading is as strong as option 3. Debatable, but since it separates the concept of "uses" from the actual using of the ability you probably can (read: your DM will not allow you to but that's a nerf, not the rules) spend all of your uses at once, or in whatever amounts you want since you aren't actually USING the ability, just spending your daily uses. If that's the case it becomes the strongest option here.

Option 2: Tenebrous gives you the Turn Undead action, but no actual uses. This means you can Turn Undead to gain control of them or rebuke them, but can't feed Divine Feats. I think this is actually a reasonable reading of the ability, but it's also pretty lame. To be honest, the Divine feats (Divine Metamagic exempt) are a little on the weak side so this removes a way for them to actually see play. This option is extremely disappointing in a campaign where the party won't let you control undead (because that's evil).

Option 3: Tenebrous gives you a use of the Turn Undead ability, and once you use it you regain it 5 rounds later. This is both good, and compelling (as it opens a bunch of Divine Feats). It reduces the cost of Divine Metamagic every five rounds (but doesn't just pay for them outright since you can't use them all at once). It lets you use Devotion feats too. This is how I read the ability, and it opens a lot of options even in a party that won't let you control undead.

[Troacctid]

Without that ruling, what do you view tenebrous DMM exploitation as looking like in practice?
Anything that takes only one use. Healing Devotion is particularly nice.

[Darg]

The per-day uses are part of the turn undead SA, not just the class feature, which is where the possibility of that ruling is coming from. I wouldn't say I support it but it seems a possible interpretation.

Without that ruling, what do you view tenebrous DMM exploitation as looking like in practice?

The special attack entry is for clerics and paladins:


This section covers grappling, throwing splash weapons (such as acid or holy water), attacking objects (such as trying to hack apart a locked chest), turning or rebuking undead (for clerics and paladins), and an assortment of other special attacks.

Take a look at the domain abilities:


EARTH DOMAIN
Deities: Moradin, Obad-Hai.
Granted Power: Turn or destroy air creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster earth creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.

Should these abilities use up your cleric turn attempts? They do it as a cleric turns undead. They follow the same exact rules as turn undead. They are different abilities and therefore have a different pool of attempts. This is also reinforced by extra turning:


Each time you take this feat, you can use your ability to turn or rebuke creatures four more times per day than normal. If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature (such as a good-aligned cleric with access to the Fire domain, who can turn undead and water creatures and can also rebuke fire creatures), each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day.

I could never agree that the extra turning feat could ever apply to opportunistic piety. Nor could I say that the uses per day is tied to the special attack entry instead of being a reminder:


Turn Undead (Su): When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would. (See Turn or Rebuke Undead, page 159.)

The special attack entry is referring to the ability itself and it's uses per day.

As for tenebrous, the ability doesn't have uses per day; nor is it the same ability. Vestige abilities are explicitly at-will except that many have a period of time after use where they can't be used again.


Nobody gets a "pool" of attempts. Afaik, that word isn't in the rules.

It is a concept word meant to make it easier to understand the phenomena of having multiple turning abilities, each with separate uses. 1 level cleric + 6 levels paladin gives you 3+cha attempts as a 1st level cleric and 3+cha attempts as a 3rd level cleric from your paladin levels.

[Elves]

Anything that takes only one use. Healing Devotion is particularly nice.
Like OP, would not work with domain feats because no daily uses.


They are different abilities and therefore have a different pool of attempts. ...1 level cleric + 6 levels paladin gives you 3+cha attempts as a 1st level cleric and 3+cha attempts as a 3rd level cleric from your paladin levels.
This has been discussed in the past, some take this to indicate shared attempts:
In the special case of turning undead, both clerics and experi-enced paladins have the same ability. If the character’s paladin level is 4th or higher, her effective turning level is her cleric level plus her paladin level minus 3. Thus a 5th-level paladin/4th-level cleric turns undead as a 6th-level cleric.

But to be clear, I don't think per day tenebrous turning is the most likely ruling.


I could never agree that the extra turning feat could ever apply to opportunistic piety.
True, because fac doesn't directly have a pool of turn attempts for it to add to.

[Darg]

Like OP, would not work with domain feats because no daily uses.


This has been discussed in the past, some take this to indicate shared attempts:
In the special case of turning undead, both clerics and experi-enced paladins have the same ability. If the character’s paladin level is 4th or higher, her effective turning level is her cleric level plus her paladin level minus 3. Thus a 5th-level paladin/4th-level cleric turns undead as a 6th-level cleric.

But to be clear, I don't think per day tenebrous turning is the most likely ruling.


True, because fac doesn't directly have a pool of turn attempts for it to add to.

I was wrong:


In the special case of turning undead, both clerics and experi-
enced paladins have the same ability. If the character’s paladin level
is 4th or higher, her effective turning level is her cleric level plus
her paladin level minus 3. Thus a 5th-level paladin/4th-level cleric
turns undead as a 6th-level cleric.

In the special case of uncanny dodge, both experienced bar-
barians and experienced rogues have the same ability. When a
barbarian/rogue would gain uncanny dodge a second time (for her
second class), she instead gains improved uncanny dodge, if she
does not already have it. Her barbarian and rogue levels stack to
determine the rogue level an attacker needs to flank her. For
example, a 2nd-level barbarian/4th-level rogue could only be
flanked by a rogue of at least 10th level.

In the special case of obtaining a familiar, both wizards and
sorcerers have the same ability. A sorcerer/wizard stacks his sorcerer
and wizard levels to determine the familiar’s natural armor,
Intelligence score, and special abilities.

The PHB is providing exceptions and saying that these are the same abilities. As this is the case, opportunistic piety can't possess the same pool of uses as turn undead as it is not the same ability.