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Mortai
2021-03-22, 05:49 PM
Currently, I am Co-DMing a campaign with another DM we disagree on if this Artifact level ring should be introduced to our current campaign. My reasoning is that the item would destabilize the current campaign by creating a power gap between players and I am also unsure if it would even be balanced. The other DM believes that the item is balanced because it takes up three attunement slots and it is being introduced for plot reasons. He is concerned that I will nerf or remove the item if he introduces it as I just don't personally want to deal with an artifact at this stage of the campaign(LVL 5 campaign currently not a mythic campaign and he wanted to introduce it around LVL 7). Would you consider introducing this item to the campaign and more specifically is it balanced and if not how would you change it? Just want some opinions and tips on ways to address our disagreement.

ITEM: Red Lantern Ring take 3 attunement slots

Gives the player 2 attacks as an action not stackable

Flight 30ft

Does not need to breath

Cantrips: Dancing Lights, Light, Eldritch Blast

3 Charges- Recharge upon entering Rage(all) - Recharge upon killing(1)

Shield-1 Charge

Rage Blade (Shadow Blade) - 2 charges

Dragon's Breath (Red Acid/Plasma) -2 charges

Detriments -Upon Crit, roll d20 on 1, 2, or 3 unable to discern friend from foe.

You constantly Bleed Red Plasma from your mouth.

PhoenixPhyre
2021-03-22, 06:17 PM
Artifacts, IMO, should only be introduced if they're intended to be major "plot" items. That is, introducing one should warp the course of the game around that artifact. And balancing them is...tricky. Forcing them on someone leaves bad tastes, but plot items should be in play. So they have to be strong enough to be wanted, but not so strong as to destroy the game.

As to the particular artifact:

3 attunement slots is a heavy cost, at least if there are expected to be significant other items out there the player would want. Looks like it's for a barbarian (referencing Rage).

So what you've got is

* Extra attack, non-stacking. For a full-class barbarian, this is null. For almost anyone else, this is relatively useless (they either have Extra Attack already or they don't really use it). For a partial-class barbarian (ie Barb 4, X the rest, but no Extra Attack from somewhere) it could be useful. Total: ~0
* Flight: By itself, constant-effect flight is Rare or Very Rare in my book. Total: +++
* No need to breathe: Valuable, but niche. Total: +
* Cantrips: Useless for barbarian. Potentially pretty good for someone else. What's the casting modifier? And do they scale with your level (or are they fixed)?
* Charges: Barbarians get use...except they can't cast spells while raging. So Shield is out. Everyone else can recharge by killing...which gets crazy, fast. Drop a fireball on some mooks? 3 more shields. Total: + (barbarian), +++++++++++++ (full caster)
** Charge effects: Shield 3x/day, by itself, is maybe Rare. Pity the barbarian can't use it while raging.
** Shadow Blade: Meh. Good if you build around it, but again, what's the mod? Barbarian can't use it while raging.
** Dragon's breath: as the spell? Base level? Spellcasting modifier? Again, barbarian can't use it while raging.

* Detriment: Is this "when you score a critical hit" or "when someone critically hits you". Because one set of adamantine armor fixes the second, no attunement needed. Self-based loss-of-control is, well, not fun in my opinion.

And what does it mean to "constantly Bleed Red Plasma from your mouth"?

--------

Overall--this is a schizophrenic artifact. Power level is all over the place depending on who uses it. The obvious target (barbarian) actually gets the least benefit out of it. At significant and (IMO) unfun cost. And it needs a lot more clarification before being useful.

VERDICT: I wouldn't accept this.

MrStabby
2021-03-22, 06:28 PM
Well I wouldn't allow it.

Lets put aside power for the moment.

Not being able to tell friend from foe, no matter how infrequently isn't fun. It is one more case where you say to the player that they don't get to play their character and don't get to make decisions - or if they can just chose who to attack it has little impact. And you don't balance someone being the centre of attention because they have a super powerful artifact by also making them the center of attention bacause they start to murder their allies. Downsides rarely are a good tool to balance items or abilities.

The abilities themselves are ranging from the very powerful to the meh.

I think flying is an issue. Fly is an ok (if a little situational) 3rd level spell balanced by concentration. At will flight is a high level ablity of certain classes like the draconic sorcerer. Getting their stylish ability before they do is just going to rob them of their special thing, just a little bit.

Likewise with eldritch blast. It is a cool bespoke warlock spell and just handing it out is a bit rough - at least it isn't backed up by invocations though. You probably need to explicitly state what the casting stat is for this though.

And the two together - a bit more powerful giving a ranged ability AND flying together but most PCs by this stage will have some ranged option and some mobility option.

The other bits are fine - two attacks is common enough that one more player with them won't make anyone else feel like the artifact is steping on their turf. The other spells are generic enough/not uniquely powerful enough such that they can feel useful but also not putting anyone else to shame.


The three attunement slots might be important or count for nothing. If the party has no other attunement items then this doesn't really matter. If the opportunity cost is higher and the PC with the artifact needs to give up other really good stuff to use it then it is a bigger deal.

brian 333
2021-03-22, 06:39 PM
Artifacts can scale with the campaign, so that at level 7 it is suited to a level 7 party, and by level 14 it has unlocked features which make it desireable to a level 14 party.

My question is, what the heck is this thing, and what's it for? It seems to have been created by picking random abilities from a hat. Is it The Ring of the Barbarian Mage?

Its abilities don't seem to go together, and its penalty appears to do nothing at all.

In my opinion the item needs focus, it needs a trade-off that matters, and most of all, it needs a purpose.

My verdict is, no. Not without major tweaking and a real story purpose. In my opinion, the introduction of an artifact is a signifgant matter, not something you do because you thought it would be cool.

Negative
2021-03-22, 06:58 PM
Thank you for your responses. Very appreciated. As the other DM in the campaign and creator of the item, I'm trying to do 2 things. Produce an item that is not too overpowered as well as setting up the first time the group is introduced into the lantern corps. We are running a superhero campaign btw. If you're not familiar with the red lantern corps, it's a side version of the green lantern. The red rings grant powers similar to the green lantern ring but do a few things differently. Place the recipient .... victim? into a state of permanent rage, turns blood into plasma or acid, the ring acts as the wearer's heart. If the ring is removed, the wearer dies. This ring will be introduced with their next boss who the group has enraged. I don't plan on making the character go into a permanent rage but I truly don't plan on any player character having so much rage to entice a ring to choose him or her. Ultimately I'm looking to see how these green lantern rings would work in the setting without overpowering anyone but still giving a person bonuses to feel like a superhero.

To answer a few questions,

Shield, Dragon's breath, and shadow blade would all be allowed to be castable during raging.

I'm contemplating allowing a character to go into a rage 1 / day without the damage mitigating components.

Constantly bleeding plasma (acid) (Dragon Breath) out of the mouth is a side effect of the violent rage which replaces all blood with plasma in the body. It's the strangest aspect of the red lanterns I will admit. trying to keep to lore as much as possible.

Ability modifiers regarding spells might be wisdom or charisma. Not 100% on it.

I truly believe the first two rings that characters would attract would be hope and greed. A thieving rogue would definitely attract the avarice orange lantern ring, while a cleric or monk would attract a hope blue ring. I plan on making ring stats for those shortly.

Thoughts?

Mortai
2021-03-22, 07:13 PM
Really appreciate everyone's input me and Negative(Yes he is really the Co-DM) are trying to sort our way through the purpose and balancing on these items.

thoroughlyS
2021-04-02, 04:14 PM
As someone familiar with the lore, I have to ask: why give this to the player's at all? Red Lanterns are chosen just like other corp members. If they kill the NPC wearing this, then theoretically it should fly off. Are you intending for the players to be inducted into various hero organizations?