How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick? [Archive]

Kitten Champion

2021-03-22, 07:56 PM

Marvel doesn't do sidekicks. Well, except for irony, like what they eventually did with Bucky.

The point of Spider-Man from his inception was he himself was closer to the age of the average comic reader in the 60's and not a grown adult, he had relatable life issues and had to figure out things on his own.

Based on similar ideas employed in the Fantastic Four, where the teenager - Human Torch - is a full member of the group rather than the squire that follows in their footsteps. It was one of the things Marvel used to differentiate themselves from DC who were using side-kicks for that purpose, and in part why Marvel grew to be more successful in the industry as time went on.

Bartmanhomer

2021-03-22, 07:56 PM

Why does he need a sidekick?

I was just asking because I thought it would be interesting if Marvel comes up with a sidekick. :smile:

Dire_Flumph

2021-03-22, 07:58 PM

I'm sure he's had them over his long run, but the likely answer was none of them were popular enough to stick around. Not familiar enough in Spider-lore to come up with specifics however.

Bartmanhomer

2021-03-22, 08:07 PM

Peelee

2021-03-22, 08:11 PM

Most superheroes got a sidekick, Batman & Robin, Superman & Supergirl, Wonder Woman & Wonder Girl, The Flash & Kid Flash.

Except for Robin, are any of those actually sidekicks?

Bartmanhomer

2021-03-22, 08:13 PM

Except for Robin, are any of those actually sidekicks?

Of course, they're sidekicks. What else can they be, minions?

Rater202

2021-03-22, 08:17 PM

Becuase Stan Lee hated the concept of Teen sidekicks.

That's why Toro was killed off when Jim Hammond turned up and why Bucky was killed in the accident that froze Captain America.

(Toro was eventually brought back and Bucky's death retconned, but they're now partners, not Sidekicks. Marvel does Partners. But not sidekicks.)

Marvel subverts the sidekick trope though. A recently started series called Children of the Atom is about a group of teens who all felt different and alienated from society and admired the X-Men discovering that they have Superhuman powers and realize "oh, we're mutants, that's why we feel different" and become a superhero team molded on the X-Men and present themselves as the X-Men's Sidekicks.

They even have the same powers as the X-Men—Cyclops-Lass, Daycrawler, Gimmick, and Marvel Guy seemingly have the same powers as Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Gambit, and Marvel Girl(what JEan goes by when she's not Phoenix)—excepting Cherub, who models himself on Archangel but whose powers are closer to songbird(who is not an X-man.)

The Children of the Atom are operating entirely independently of the X-Men, and despite what they think they are not in fact mutants.

Spider-Man was created to show the Teen as a hero instead of the second fiddle.

In-character, Spider-Man dowsn'tt always work well with others. It took him years before he was comfortable with more than brief teamups.

Peelee

2021-03-22, 08:20 PM

Of course, they're sidekicks. What else can they be, minions?

Are those the only two choices? Everyone is either a sidekick or a minion?

Bartmanhomer

2021-03-22, 08:26 PM

Peelee

2021-03-22, 08:49 PM

Uh....yes. :smile:

So is Batman is Superman's sidekick then? Or is Superman Batman's sidekick? All those heroes in the same world, they're all either sidekicks or minions to one hero, according to your logic.

Gnoman

2021-03-22, 08:52 PM

Kid sidekicks were an artifact of the early days of comics, originally added to increase the appeal of the books to kids. So you're going to see a lot of them in the oldest series - Batman and Robin, Catman and Kitten, Captain America and Bucky, ect. After the 50s, the need for greater kid appeal was not really needed, so new ones generally were not created, and the existing ones were gradually spun off into their own lines or pushed into obscurity. The only kid sidekick that remains is Robin, because the Batman/Robin pairing is iconic and works well with a lot of the modern Batman mythos.

Keltest

2021-03-22, 08:52 PM

So is Batman is Superman's sidekick then? Or is Superman Batman's sidekick? All those heroes in the same world, they're all either sidekicks or minions to one hero, according to your logic.

Peelee, thats not remotely fair. Kid Flash is A: absolutely Flash's sidekick (hence the name) and B: has a significantly greater association with the flash, and reputation for pairing with him, than Superman does with Batman. DC has a whole thing about changing the identities of sidekicks when they graduate to being their own heroes, whether it be into the newest model of their former mentor (kid flash into flash) or into their totally own separate thing (Robin into Nightwing). Sometimes both.

Bartmanhomer

2021-03-22, 08:55 PM

So is Batman is Superman's sidekick then? Or is Superman Batman's sidekick? All those heroes in the same world, they're all either sidekicks or minions to one hero, according to your logic.

Of course not. How can they be sidekicks themselves if they're already superheroes on their own merits? You can't say: I'm a hero and a sidekick at the same time. I don't think that how it works. Unless if you're trying to make a joke just to catch me off-guard.

Peelee

2021-03-22, 09:02 PM

Peelee, thats not remotely fair. Kid Flash is A: absolutely Flash's sidekick (hence the name) and B: has a significantly greater association with the flash, and reputation for pairing with him, than Superman does with Batman. DC has a whole thing about changing the identities of sidekicks when they graduate to being their own heroes, whether it be into the newest model of their former mentor (kid flash into flash) or into their totally own separate thing (Robin into Nightwing). Sometimes both.

Unfamiliar with Kid Flash*, but that is irrelevant to my point (which is not unfair). If the only options are sidekick or minion, the I was simply following that to it's logical conclusion. Supergirl is not a sidekick for Superman, she is a separate hero who has the same powers. I was noting that having only two possible categories was a poor argument. My overall point was that separate heroes is a third category, whcuh negates the *there are only two options" claim.

*Also, given Superboy, names like Kid Flash do not, on their own, necessitate that one is a sidekick, hence my earnest question about whether they actually were sidekicks earlier.

Ramza00

2021-03-22, 09:21 PM

Most superheroes got a sidekick, Batman & Robin, Superman & Supergirl, Wonder Woman & Wonder Girl, The Flash & Kid Flash. (I know that they're DC Superheroes). But of all the Spider-Man comics books, cartoons, and movies I noticed that Spider-Man doesn't have a sidekick. Like does Spider-Man even need a sidekick? I just want to know why Spider-Man doesn't have a sidekick?

It is complicated as in without "context" you would not instantly know the history and how history produces tensions, and tensions produce change and thus one thing is not like another thing a decade later. What I am saying to understand the history you have to understand the culture of the time, the people making the decisions, and what came before. Once you know those things it seems obvious in hindsight. Without knowing this all you can say it is complicated.

The 1960s Marvel was successful via having teen and adult heroes who were telling melodramatic stories. The style of Marvel in the 60s was different than DC and this is what caused the marvel method, which is both a workflow of how the comics were made but also injecting it full of emotion and teenage / young adult angst. It, Marvel was not a place of Sidekicks, which is mainly the providence of 1940 to 1955 ish (golden age), and later 1955 to 1970 ish (silver age) with DC and other comic companies. Marvel set itself apart by not doing the sidekick thing.

Likewise we see the return of more teenage heroes with Marvel with things like Giant Size X-Men (1975), New Mutants (1982), etc. These books were not full of sidekicks but instead teenage heroes (with attitude) in a team and they, the team bounce their stories off one another instead of a mentor figure like the traditional side kick. Thus lots of melodrama, lots of teenage angst and emotion.

In the 1980s DC was copying the success of the X-Men and New Mutant books with The New Teen Titans (vol 1 1980 to 1984, relaunched with vol 2 in 1984 to 1996, I am less familiar with all the details of this DC team and how they reinvented themselves several times over these 15 years. For example they renamed the trademark the book was selling under during said time.)

And since the 90s there has been several teenage teams for both Marvel and DC, some of them are "Mutant" teams like 6 or 7 generations of mutant teams (New Mutants, Gen X, New X-Men / Academy X, 3 or 4 more I am forgetting), but also other teen teams like the Young Avengers, the Braddock Academy, and the Champions. And like I said earlier DC also has there young team lines besides The Teen Titans.

-----

Sidekicks were a cultural thing from the 40s to mid 60s where adults were supposed to teach kids to be moral exemplars. Likewise the sidekick thing allowed the kids to have an audience surrogate where they identify with the adult character who has the true "agency" to drive the plot of the story forward.

Bartmanhomer

2021-03-22, 09:23 PM

It is complicated as in without "context" you would not instantly know the history and how history produces tensions, and tensions produce change and thus one thing is not like another thing a decade later.

The 1960s Marvel was successful via having teen and adult heroes who were telling melodramatic stories. It, Marvel was not a place of Sidekicks which is mainly the providence of 1940 to 1955 ish (golden age), and later 1955 to 1970 ish (silver age.) Marvel set itself apart by not doing the sidekick thing.

Likewise we see the return of more teenage heroes with Marvel with things like Giant Size X-Men (1975), New Mutants (1982), etc. These books were not full of sidekicks but instead teenage heroes (with attitude) and they bounce their stories off one another instead of a mentor figure like the traditional side kick.

Likewise in the 1980s DC was copying the success of the X-Men and New Mutant books with The New Teen Titans (vol 1 1980 to 1984, relaunched with vol 2 in 1984 to 1996, I am less familiar with all the details of this DC team and how they reinvented themselves several times over these 15 years. For example they renamed the trademark the book was selling under during said time.)

And since the 90s there has been several teenage teams for both Marvel and DC, some of them are "Mutant" teams like 6 or 7 generations of mutant teams (New Mutants, Gen X, New X-Men / Academy X, 3 or 4 more I am forgetting), but also other teen teams like the Young Avengers, the Braddock Academy, and the Champions. And like I said earlier DC also has there young team lines besides The Teen Titans.

Thank you for telling me this information. It sounds like Marvel doesn't like Sidekicks that much.

Ramza00

2021-03-22, 09:26 PM

Thank you for telling me this information. It sounds like Marvel doesn't like Sidekicks that much.

Sorry I edited it for I was not satisfied at the time, and you read it real quick between the edits ... OOPS :smallbiggrin:

Taevyr

2021-03-22, 09:40 PM

DC has a longstanding tradition of sidekicks, and eventual "families", which Marvel never really had. Part of that is because, before the "new 52" 2011 full reboot, legacy was a fundamental element of the DC verse: Many of the "modern" heroes, e.g. batman, flash, green lantern, etc. followed in the footsteps or were partially trained by predecessor heroes that fought in WW2. In turn, they taught some students as full-fledged "sidekicks" and attracted/inspired others in a less "official" capacity, who then went on to become heroes in their own right, with several "generations" of heroes being around by the 90's-2000's.

And you can't really blame Marvel: it's essentially using'em as vigilante child soldiers, which is why most of the classic/original cases were either retconned, changed to involve some degree of necessity, or emphasize that the hero who did the recruiting wasn't entirely mentally sound him/herself at the time.

It's also why it's always funny to see people describe/see batman as a lone wolf: this (https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/mYauoYM4jj9FedNnA95yxC.jpg) is the most recent image showing the full extended "cast" of "bat-family" heroes currently running around Gotham, though Joker and his new squeeze, the armored fellow with the flag and Scarecrow in the back are simply the key villains to the current run. The man can claim to work alone as much as he want, but he has gathered/inspired the largest group of heroes in all of DC.

5 of those did serve as robin at one time or another, though.

The Glyphstone

2021-03-22, 11:21 PM

Who's that in the upper right in yellow? I thought it was Wolverine at first, photobombing a franchise he's not even in.

Zevox

2021-03-22, 11:29 PM

Except for Robin, are any of those actually sidekicks?
Kid Flash is (or was, I have no idea on the current state of things in the actual comics). Supergirl and Wonder Girl, no, not really. Supergirl was more of a spin-off character, and Wonder Girl... is complicated, but was not actually a sidekick at any point as far as I'm aware.

I'm far from an expert on the subject, but to my knowledge, aside from the gods-know-how-many Robins (and Batgirls, if they count, not sure on those), I don't think there's actually all that many sidekicks out there - at least not of any note. Kid Flash, Aqualad, Speedy, Bucky... and pretty much after that you're starting to get into obscure territory. Really, it feels like the fact that sidekicks are such a well-known aspect of superheroes probably largely springs out of how prominent Robin is as Batman's sidekick, as the prominence of any sidekicks past him/them diminishes rapidly.

And yeah, aside from Bucky, I'd struggle to name any Marvel sidekicks. Feels like Marvel just tends to put their younger heroes on teams like X-Men, or just make them their own hero outright, like Spider-Man himself. Which is also probably part of the answer here: back when sidekicks were at their most common, the point was to have a younger counterpart fighting alongside an adult hero, for young readers to identify with. Spider-Man already being a teenage character at that time, there just would've been no point to giving him one, even if Marvel had been doing that like DC did.

Ramza00

2021-03-22, 11:48 PM

Also one more thing with sidekicks. The success of characters requires the use of making spin-off books with similar names during the economics of comics from the 1960s to roughly 1990s.

For example Spider-Man was enormously successful in the 1960s and 1970s so Marvel created Jessica Drew as Spider-Woman to preserve the trademark. You see trademarks and copyright are different. Trademarks last 10 years and are designed for image / icons like the Nike swoosh, but also short words like Spider-Man or iPod. Copyright lasts much longer and is for 50 to 100ish years depending on the country, and is getting longer again and again in America.

So Peter Parker stories are protected by Copyright, but “any hero” calling themselves Spider-Man require Marvel to publish a new story every 10 years to renew the trademark.

For example Captain Marvel with Shazam (DC and previously Fawcett Comics) vs Captain Marvel (Marvel comics with the characters Mar-Vell / Monica Rambeau / Genis-Vell / Phyla-Vell / Khn'nr / Noh-Varr / Carol Danvers )

Shazam was originally created at Fawcett comics and his book was called Captain Marvel. Fawcett comics then stop publishing comics instead doing other businesses and let the Captain Marvel trademark lapse. Marvel comics snapped it up and published a book around the hero Mar-Vell a Super-Man expy. Then Fawcett comics sold its assets to DC and while DC incorporated Shazam into their stories it now longer could publish comics under that trademark, and Marvel will not let the trademark lapse as evident by the half a dozen characters with said moniker.

—————

So back to sidekicks. One of the protective acts done to prevent trademark poaching is to create characters like Aqualad, Kid Flash, etc to prevent a competitor from poaching the trademark.

Likewise this is what Marvel did with Jessica Drew in 1977 even though she is not a sidekick and unrelated to Peter Parker in lore. Marvel felt the need to rush out a Spider-Women to protect said trademark. Even though the Jessica Drew origin was weak and could use some massaging.

Now in the 1990s the economics of comics have changed that this was less of a problem. Lots more competitors, less supermarket and so on locations, more comic shops and so on, the boom and bust of the industry including the Marvel bankruptcy, the business had changed.

Rater202

2021-03-23, 12:10 AM

She-Hulk is another example of that kind of thing.

Back when there was an Incredible Hulk TV show, it was popular enough that the network that aired it was considering a spin-off about a "she-Hulk" in order to compete with, IIRC, Bionic Woman.

Marvel created Bruce's cousin, Jen Walters, and gave her an origin story of Bruce transfusing his blood into Jen's body after she was shot by a mob hitman, giving her powers similar to his own because if the Network had created their own She-Hulk without Marvel having the character first, the Network would have owned the "She-Hulk" character.

Red Sonja and Kulan Gath are examples of how not being careful with this kind of thing can bite you in the ass.

Marvel had the license to publish comics about Conan the Barbarian—In fact, Marvel's Conan comics are as important as Howard's original stories when it comes to the popular conception of what "Conan" is and is what "coined" Conan The Barbarian as his official title.

Red Sonja and Kulan Gath are Marvel original characters created as a side character and a recurring villain, respectively, in Marel's Conan comics before spinning off—Red Sonja to her own title and Gath became more her villain than Conan's. But because they first appeared in the Conan title, Marvel lost the rights to them when their license for Conan expired.

Marvel has the rights to Conan back and the rights to Kulan Gath now... But Red Sonja is still owned by a company that did not create her.

It's particularly awkward because Marvel depicted their Conan stories as taking place in the ancient past of the Earth 616 setting(And some elements from Conan ended up permanently part of Marvel lore), and Mary-Jane Watson, Spider-Man's romantic partner, is explicitly Red Sonja reincarnated—she's twice been possessed by Sonja's memories

Kitten Champion

2021-03-23, 12:56 AM

Even with Batman though, the Batman & Robin dynamic is pretty downplayed in most Batman media. There's the Joel Schumacher movies, sure, but in the live action Batman movies for the last 20 years Robin has been an Easter Egg at most.

Basically, the Batman & Robin concept has been either for serious comic-readers who also watch the animated releases and know who the current Robin is... or it's a campy reference to the past you'd see in something like Lego Batman for the mass audiences to chuckle at.

And yeah, aside from Bucky, I'd struggle to name any Marvel sidekicks. Feels like Marvel just tends to put their younger heroes on teams like X-Men, or just make them their own hero outright, like Spider-Man himself. Which is also probably part of the answer here: back when sidekicks were at their most common, the point was to have a younger counterpart fighting alongside an adult hero, for young readers to identify with. Spider-Man already being a teenage character at that time, there just would've been no point to giving him one, even if Marvel had been doing that like DC did.

Essentially X-Men did really, really, really well in the 80's and into much the 90's to the point the DC was quite willing to rearrange the sidekick characters into something similar. That's the Teen Titans. Or, rather, the Teen Titan's from the 80's onwards with Wolfman and Perez, and not the original Teen Titans which was more like a youth social club as imagined by out-of-touch men in the 60's who think vanilla is too spicy.

At the point where Teen Titans also became popular we'd reach the tipping period where young superheroes had stories and identities of their own that even if they were technically sidekicks in the sense of their origins they no longer served as mere extensions of the titular characters.

Also, I would argue Jimmy Olsen is Superman's sidekick. Obviously not in a "same as Superman but younger" way but otherwise in the big picture sense. A deep mix of expressing the paternalistic side of the hero, having a younger figure they regularly interact with for the younger readers to see themselves in, and of course to put them in repeated danger so they can be saved -- which Jimmy did in spades.

comicshorse

2021-03-23, 06:53 AM

Who's that in the upper right in yellow? I thought it was Wolverine at first, photobombing a franchise he's not even in.

I'd presume its The Signal ( Duke Thomas).
Basically a bunch of kids decided to emulate Robin and fight crime. Eventually most of them gave it up but Duke was considered promising enough by Batman to be taken under his wing (pun intended) and trained and equipped

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Thomas_(character)#We_Are..._Robin

Mordar

2021-03-23, 07:23 PM

LibraryOgre

2021-03-23, 07:59 PM

Of course, they're sidekicks. What else can they be, minions?

More "legacy characters". While Robin, in their many incarnations, are sidekicks, Supergirl and Superboy (the Kon-El version, not the current Jonathan Kent) don't have the mentor/student relationship of sidekicks. A sidekick is usually presented as being semi-dependent on their mentor, as Robin frequently is on Batman. When they cease to be dependent, then move on... Robin (**** Grayson) became Nightwing; Jason Todd became Red Hood; Tim Drake became Red Robin; Stephanie Brown became Batgirl (who more often takes the role of "junior partner"... lower in the hierarchy, but often operating independently). These are part of what led to DC talking about the "Superman Family" (including side characters like Lois and Jimmy).... associated character, not necessarily sidekicks.

Flying Turtle

2021-03-23, 11:07 PM

He did have a sidekick. His name is Andrew Maguire and his hero name was Alpha. He had a bunch of powers but Spider Man actually had to depower him because his powers were growing to fast for his or anyone else’s safety.

I googled him after seeing this thread to refresh my memory and apparently Doc Ock gave him his powers back at some point. I have no idea what that’s about and the Marvel wiki is severely lacking in info on this character so I have no idea what he’s doing now.

Also an argument could be made for Miles Morales as some continuities have him take a pupil role, sometimes with or with out multiverses shenanigans.

Anonymouswizard

2021-03-24, 07:16 AM

dancrilis

2021-03-24, 07:37 AM

Are those the only two choices? Everyone is either a sidekick or a minion?

Or a hero, a villain or a bystander.

As for if those set (Batman & Robin, Superman & Supergirl, Wonder Woman & Wonder Girl, The Flash & Kid Flash) are - they would have been introduced as sidekicks at any rate I believe (could be wrong).

Julian84

2021-03-24, 08:32 AM

Bartmanhomer

2021-03-24, 09:00 AM

HandofShadows

2021-03-24, 09:23 AM

It's particularly awkward because Marvel depicted their Conan stories as taking place in the ancient past of the Earth 616 setting(And some elements from Conan ended up permanently part of Marvel lore), and Mary-Jane Watson, Spider-Man's romantic partner, is explicitly Red Sonja reincarnated—she's twice been possessed by Sonja's memories

There is a connection of some sort yes between Mary Jane and Red Sonja, possibly MJ is a descendant of Red Sonja, but it is stated as being a possession.

Willie the Duck

2021-03-24, 09:40 AM

I believe the bolded assumes facts not in evidence. Aside from Batman (Robin), Superman (Jimmy Olsen in some runs), Green Hornet (Kato), Green Arrow (Speedy - I think he was in a lot more issues than most of the spin-off kid characters), Captain America (Bucky back in the WWII stories, *maybe* Falcon for a while) not many come to mind. Borderline would be Rick Jones (Hulk) and maybe Redwing (Falcon...but that's more mascot).

There's plenty of supporting characters (Alfred, Lois, Wong, etc) that are regular characters that sometimes get to help out, but I don't think they quite make it to sidekick...or at least not when I was reading.

Fundamentally agree here, plus with everyone who pointed out the history of teen sidekicks for characters from the 50s and earlier. Most of the sidekicks come from that era, or are extrapolations of that era (yes, most of the JLA and JSA members have some kind of teen sidekick, but of course they do--so all the teen sidekicks can go have adventures together to parallel the adult characters dynamics). Other than that, the occasional sidekick is brought in, but overall it is not the dominant dynamic seen in superhero comics (assistants, occasionally crimefighting non-spandexed allies, butlers, love interests, parents/parental figures, and so forth being additional character roles that comics can also use).

Spider-Man, in particular, has a rich history of character types other than sidekicks to utilize. He has partnered with other in-their-own-right superheroes (Wolverine, Punisher, Deadpool, the Fantastic Four, The Avengers in total, etc.). He has two rotating love interests with which to interact (depending on who is alive in what continuity at the moment). He has many iconic villains and antagonists, both in his costumed life and in his mundane life (and in the case of J. Jonah Jameson, both). He has his Aunt, and, in memory, his Uncle. While none of these mean he couldn't have a sidekick, he certainly doesn't need one to facilitate any given story the writer wants to tell. Need someone to be kidnapped by the villain? Aunt May works fine. Need someone to butt heads with regarding crimefighting strategy? Let's say this week that can be the Hulk. Need someone from which to keep what's troubling you? Mary Jane or Gwen (or both). All of that is assuming we're talking about Peter Parker. Include the vast array of other Spider-Mans (Spider-Men?) in circulation, who each have their own nuances (and who occasionally fill out the role call for each other in terms of roles-filled) and you have even more variation on top of that.

Beyond that, one of the reasons why I think Spider-Man doesn't have a 'lessor' character following them around is that oftentimes the writers want to have Spider-Man fill that role. While having the protagonist hero(es) deal with doubt, insecurity, superheroics/mundane world conflicts, and so forth, with Spider-Man they make it a ubiquitous, if not constant, issue. Spider-Man is a kid/treated like a kid, not respected, economically struggling, whatever else the writers want to make him struggle with. He's the the Richie Cunningham/Eric Foreman, the Xander of the BVS gang, the Bumblebee to the Autobots (or at least is 25-75% of the time). If someone is there looking up to him, you have to explain away that character for the issue where Spider-Man is brooding into his milkshake about how everyone keeps treating him like a kid.

Tyndmyr

2021-03-24, 09:54 AM

Kid Flash is (or was, I have no idea on the current state of things in the actual comics). Supergirl and Wonder Girl, no, not really. Supergirl was more of a spin-off character, and Wonder Girl... is complicated, but was not actually a sidekick at any point as far as I'm aware.

I'm far from an expert on the subject, but to my knowledge, aside from the gods-know-how-many Robins (and Batgirls, if they count, not sure on those), I don't think there's actually all that many sidekicks out there - at least not of any note. Kid Flash, Aqualad, Speedy, Bucky... and pretty much after that you're starting to get into obscure territory. Really, it feels like the fact that sidekicks are such a well-known aspect of superheroes probably largely springs out of how prominent Robin is as Batman's sidekick, as the prominence of any sidekicks past him/them diminishes rapidly.

It's less of a thing now that it used to be, but when reading almost any of the old timey DC comics, they used that model. Green Lantern had the unfortunately named Pieface, for instance. Martian Manhunter had Miss Martian. Jimmy Olsen is definitely Superman's sidekick, odd as that whole period was.

You could maybe argue that Falcon is also kind of Cap's sidekick? But it's less clear than with Bucky. I do agree that it's almost entirely a DC trend. And even for DC, some of the less iconic sidekicks have been sort of phased out.

Spiderman doesn't really fit the wise mentor role, in most incarnations. Into the Spiderverse does kind of upend this, though, so if you're looking for that kind of teacher/student relationship in Spiderman stuff, that's probably the movie to watch.

Rater202

2021-03-24, 10:09 AM

Although I'm fairly certain that sidekicks don't have to dependent on our pupils of the hero I struggle to think of examples. Kato maybe? I'm not familiar enough with the Green Hornet to actually know.

Heck, the best example I can think of off the top of my head is Jo Grant from the UNIT Era of Doctor Who, she's capable in her own right but still plays second fiddle to the Doctor in a way I'm not sure Liz Shaw or the earlier companions did (except Susan? She didn't get treated well by the writing). Plus there's the entire trope about the older and potentially wiser sidekick to the hero, as well as the more competent one (such as Kato).
Kato, at least in the original show, can't really be called a "sidekick..." Becuase he was doing most of the work.

To the pint that the Hong Kong Chinese Dub presented Kato as the main character and the Green Hornet as the sidekick.

During the Green Hornet/Batman crossover Bruce Lee threw a fit when he was expected to lose a fight against Burt Ward's Robin for exactly that reason. He honestly didn't think that was realistic.

There is a connection of some sort yes between Mary Jane and Red Sonja, possibly MJ is a descendant of Red Sonja, but it is stated as being a possession.

1: Red Sonja lived 10,000 years ago: If she has living descendants, literally everyone in the world is her descendant.

2: I find it highly unlikely that Sonja has any living descendants. Her supernaturally enhanced strength is sustained by a pact with her Goddess that requires that Sonja never have sex with a man unless that man is able to best her in a fight and based on how it's presented it's less "you're allowed to sleep with a man who's stronger than you" and more "you won't be penalized if you're overpowered and raped—That whole thing was eventually retconned away but not until Sonja stopped being a Marvel character.

Reincarnation" is the only plausible method of connection. I am reasonably certain that it's explicitly stated that the reason she an be possessed by Sonja's memories is because she's Sonja reinarnated.

Psyren

2021-03-24, 03:05 PM

If you want to see what it would be like if Spiderman had a sidekick, I'd recommend Into The Spiderverse if you haven't already seen it. Miles is the protagonist, but there's definitely a mentorship dynamic between him and Peter B Parker.

Bartmanhomer

2021-03-24, 03:06 PM

Zevox

2021-03-24, 05:01 PM

Some of the classic DC sidekicks are Robin, Kid Flash, Speedy, and Aqualad. Arguably Wonder Girl as well, though I feel YMMV. I don't feel like Superboy or Supergirl ever really qualified for sidekick status in their narratives. I would argue Jimmy Olsen was more of a sidekick to Superman than either of those two.
So, here's the thing about Wonder Girl: the "original" Wonder Girl was just younger Wonder Woman. Sort of like how "Super Boy" was originally just Superman but as a kid, except that instead of having her own comics just about younger Wonder Woman the way he did, Wonder Woman got to interact with her younger self due to time travel shenanigans. Because the Silver Age of comics was goofy that way.

Years later, when Teen Titans was becoming a thing and writers were looking for characters to include on the team, one of them saw the cover art to one of those old Wonder Woman comics where she interacted with younger versions of herself and just assumed that the "Wonder Girl" there must be her sidekick, and decided to put her into Teen Titans. Thereby inadvertently creating a whole new character who had no actual backstory, because he just assumed that she already did, since sidekicks of that sort were that common at the time. And DC has since given her a bunch of different backstories that change depending on the whims of current writers. I don't think even those backstories ever included her being Diana's sidekick though - some apparently didn't even give her a connection to Diana herself, just to the Amazons.

Glancing at Wikipedia, it looks like there is actually a second Wonder Girl I was unaware of who is identified as having been a sidekick of Wonder Woman's at some point, but that doesn't seem to have lasted long before she wound up more associated with Young Justice and the Teen Titans. And she's a much more recent character, first created in the mid 90s.

It's less of a thing now that it used to be, but when reading almost any of the old timey DC comics, they used that model. Green Lantern had the unfortunately named Pieface, for instance. Martian Manhunter had Miss Martian. Jimmy Olsen is definitely Superman's sidekick, odd as that whole period was.
Okay, I knew that didn't sound right, and a quick glance at Wikipedia confirms it. Miss Martian was created for the Teen Titans in 2006. She was never Martian Manhunter's sidekick, and certainly didn't exist in old timey DC comics. She's obviously based on him, but that's it.

Mordar

2021-03-24, 07:34 PM

Okay, I knew that didn't sound right, and a quick glance at Wikipedia confirms it. Miss Martian was created for the Teen Titans in 2006. She was never Martian Manhunter's sidekick, and certainly didn't exist in old timey DC comics. She's obviously based on him, but that's it.

Yup, fast-tracked and genderswapped, but totally the Kid Version.

Still say that just because characters appear together and one is less than the other doesn't make them de facto sidekicks.

- M

HandofShadows

2021-03-25, 12:24 PM

Reincarnation" is the only plausible method of connection. I am reasonably certain that it's explicitly stated that the reason she an be possessed by Sonja's memories is because she's Sonja reinarnated.

I have the issues where it first happens. MJ picks up Sonja's sword and only then does she change. Just as Kulan Gath possess people who pick up his amulet.

Tyndmyr

2021-03-25, 02:01 PM

Okay, I knew that didn't sound right, and a quick glance at Wikipedia confirms it. Miss Martian was created for the Teen Titans in 2006. She was never Martian Manhunter's sidekick, and certainly didn't exist in old timey DC comics. She's obviously based on him, but that's it.

That's fair, differentiating sidekicks from...expy's? Is that the right term? But yeah, the junior versions don't always work with the adult version.

Gallowglass

2021-03-25, 02:32 PM

Sidekicks in comics originated in a possibly misguided belief that children (the target audience of comics in the 30s) would be more interested in the comic if there was a character in it to be their cypher. "Oh, Bucky is just like me!" "I could be Robin!"

Characters created in the 60s were after the "everyone needs a sidekick" DC silver age. Not to say there weren't some that did have sidekicks, but they were the exception, not the rule.

Spiderman, furthermore, started AS a teen hero. He was ALREADY the cypher for the target audience. "Oh, I could be Peter Parker" instead of just his sidekick.

Sidekicks purpose most of the time it to provide a soundingboard for the hero to explain things to in place of the audience. Robin asks why the Riddler is doing something so Batman can explain it to him, and through him, the audience.

Spiderman started in an era where characters has transitioned from talking outloud to people to having thought balloons to explain what's going on in their head to the audience. Even as that has gone out of vogue since the 90s, Spiderman has continued to buck the trend and still displays his thought balloons often.

so, yeah, he doesn't have a sidekick because...

1. The era he was created
2. He serves as his own audience cypher
3. He has other ways of expressing information

TeChameleon

2021-03-25, 04:13 PM

Spider-Man has had a wannabe sidekick a time or two- the aforementioned Alpha, and Oliver Osnick, aka (er, sometimes) the Steel Spider. However, they were shortlived (sometimes literally), and usually got caught up in the 'Parker luck', becoming casualties of the universe's general hatred of Peter ever being happy, or even relatively stress free, for any length of time.

There's a whole trope about the Hyper-Competent Sidekick (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HyperCompetentSidekick), which Kato falls under, and in general, sidekicks come and go in terms of popularity. For example, Hawkeye has in recent years gained a sidekick, Hawkeye.

There's also the odd subversion, like the Star-Spangled Kid and Stripesy (and later Stargirl and S.T.R.I.P.E.)- Stripesy/S.T.R.I.P.E. (same character, different time period) was something close to 20 years older than the hero he was ostensibly sidekicking for. In that case, it was partly because the Star-Spangled Kid had powers and Stripesy did not (at least that I can recall), and then later, Stargirl was the stepdaughter of Pat Dugan (Stripesy/S.T.R.I.P.E.) and found some of the Star-Spangled Kid's old super tech and just jumped into the hero thing with both feet, so poor Pat had to don powered armour (thus 'S.T.R.I.P.E.') in a somewhat futile attempt to keep her out of trouble, or at least not dead.

Glancing at Wikipedia, it looks like there is actually a second Wonder Girl I was unaware of who is identified as having been a sidekick of Wonder Woman's at some point, but that doesn't seem to have lasted long before she wound up more associated with Young Justice and the Teen Titans. And she's a much more recent character, first created in the mid 90s.

Yeh, the second Wonder Girl (Cassie Sandsmark) was unquestionably Wonder Woman's sidekick, had her origins in Wondie's book and all- and, in a rather odd meta-twist, was a new version of an already-extant character, just like the original Wonder Girl.

Zevox

2021-03-25, 04:16 PM

That's fair, differentiating sidekicks from...expy's? Is that the right term? But yeah, the junior versions don't always work with the adult version.
I just tend to think of them as spin-offs, personally. And there's probably more of them around than there are actual sidekicks. Especially on the Marvel side of things. Spider-Man might never have had a Robin-esque sidekick, but there have been quite a few characters who were Spider-Man at one point or another, plus Spider-Women, alternate universe versions of him, etc.

Mordar

2021-03-25, 05:31 PM

I just tend to think of them as spin-offs, personally. And there's probably more of them around than there are actual sidekicks. Especially on the Marvel side of things. Spider-Man might never have had a Robin-esque sidekick, but there have been quite a few characters who were Spider-Man at one point or another, plus Spider-Women, alternate universe versions of him, etc.

Hrm - I think of Juniors differently than either Expy or Spin-off...maybe Juniors and Spin-offs are flavors of the same category (Duplicated characters/power-sets, maybe?).

Miss Martian seems like a potential Expy though...created to add into Teen Titans/Young Justice, but had she been introduced earlier rather than just dropping her into the teams then maybe she would have been a Junior.

- M

Zevox

2021-03-25, 07:35 PM

Hrm - I think of Juniors differently than either Expy or Spin-off...maybe Juniors and Spin-offs are flavors of the same category (Duplicated characters/power-sets, maybe?).

Miss Martian seems like a potential Expy though...created to add into Teen Titans/Young Justice, but had she been introduced earlier rather than just dropping her into the teams then maybe she would have been a Junior.

- M
I'd tend to think that Junior would be a more specific sub-category of spin-off, specifically for younger characters with similar power/skill sets to the original. Expy I'm not sure what you mean by, that term sounds more like it'd apply to another company's version of a character (which might less charitably, or if done poorly and lazily, be termed a rip-off) - i.e. Hyperion being a Marvel expy of Superman.

TeChameleon

2021-03-25, 08:35 PM

SunsetWaraxe

2021-03-25, 10:22 PM

Sidekicks are more DC's thing than Marvel's. Marvel has a lot of derivative/related characters to Spider-Man but they are often made full fledged heroes in their own right (Scarlet Spider, Spider-Woman, Arachnid, Mile Morales, Spider-Gwen, Silk Spider, etc.). Often when there is a "junior" version of a character, they are put into a Team book, rather than the main hero's book long term (i.e. the Young Avengers).

LibraryOgre

2021-03-26, 07:51 AM

Mm... if we're finessing the terminology that much, lesse...

Junior: Younger character with similar origins/powerset to the main protagonist, and often has a similar look; if on a separate team, will often fill the same role as the protagonist does on their team
Expy: Alternate version of a character with relatively minor differences, often fulfills the same role in-story. Typically, if an expy appears at the same company as the original character, it's because of a rights goof-up or simply forgetting the previous character existed (cf. Plastic Man and Elongated Man as an example of both at the same time)
Spinoff: Characters with a looser connection to the main plot and characters- either a minor character moved to another story for a starring role, flashing back to major characters' childhood, or even simply sharing a setting with the main story. Usually distinguished by moving away from the main plot and characters into its own 'area'.

So the first Wonder Girl was a Spinoff, Superboy would be a Junior, Supergirl would be more of a spinoff, Robin would be a Junior, Miss Martian would be a Junior, Batgirl, Huntress, Oracle, most of the Batfamily really, would be Spinoffs...

Dunno if that's ideal, but it makes a sort of sense, anyways... I think...

I'd toss out that Damien Wayne and Jonathan Kent make the "Junior" terminology a bit difficult... they are literally "Juniors"... children of their heroic fathers with similar powersets/abilties. I'm also not too thrilled with using Plastic Man and Elongated Man as examples for Expys... while they do have similar "stretching" powers, there's a world of difference in them as characters, and degree of power (Plas is wisecracking immortal; Ralph Dibny is a private eye and family man with some stretchiness). You might as well say Mr. Fantastic and Ms. Marvel are the same character, since they have the same powers (and now picturing Reed Richards, middle-aged-man-with-children-and-60-degrees, in a high school story, being reacted to as if he were a Pakistani girl).

Your overall structure is good... I'm just being picky.

Mordar

2021-03-26, 12:08 PM

I'd tend to think that Junior would be a more specific sub-category of spin-off, specifically for younger characters with similar power/skill sets to the original. Expy I'm not sure what you mean by, that term sounds more like it'd apply to another company's version of a character (which might less charitably, or if done poorly and lazily, be termed a rip-off) - i.e. Hyperion being a Marvel expy of Superman.

I agree in principle. Someone else brought the idea of expy into the mix, and I thought of the characters discussed only Miss Martian could possibly fit (because she didn't get introduced as a Junior on her own, but rather was created to plug into a team very reminiscent of her creative progenitor's team).

Still, I think there is a significant difference between Juniors and Spin-offs...which TeChameleon hits on below:

Mm... if we're finessing the terminology that much, lesse...

Junior: Younger character with similar origins/powerset to the main protagonist, and often has a similar look; if on a separate team, will often fill the same role as the protagonist does on their team
Expy: Alternate version of a character with relatively minor differences, often fulfills the same role in-story. Typically, if an expy appears at the same company as the original character, it's because of a rights goof-up or simply forgetting the previous character existed (cf. Plastic Man and Elongated Man as an example of both at the same time)
Spinoff: Characters with a looser connection to the main plot and characters- either a minor character moved to another story for a starring role, flashing back to major characters' childhood, or even simply sharing a setting with the main story. Usually distinguished by moving away from the main plot and characters into its own 'area'.

So the first Wonder Girl was a Spinoff, Superboy would be a Junior, Supergirl would be more of a spinoff, Robin would be a Junior, Miss Martian would be a Junior, Batgirl, Huntress, Oracle, most of the Batfamily really, would be Spinoffs...

Dunno if that's ideal, but it makes a sort of sense, anyways... I think...

This fits nicely with my position.

Sidekicks in comics originated in a possibly misguided belief that children (the target audience of comics in the 30s) would be more interested in the comic if there was a character in it to be their cypher. "Oh, Bucky is just like me!" "I could be Robin!"

For what it is worth, I strongly disagree with the underlined. Many of my comic reading friends had younger brothers who became part of the "hobby" by being Robin to their older brother's Batman, and took to the characters because of their identifiable "younger sibling" dynamic. Burt Ward did more for solidifying younger fans in Batman than Adam West did...because Batman, while cool, was too flawless, too unattainable...and too old. Teen Titans and Legion of Super Heroes both really resonated with younger readers in ways JLA didn't, though that was more for the young adolescents than the children.

That was for my generation (the TV show was old then, but still adored...I'm not *that* old!), though - YMMV.

- M

TeChameleon

2021-03-26, 02:57 PM

I'd toss out that Damien Wayne and Jonathan Kent make the "Junior" terminology a bit difficult... they are literally "Juniors"... children of their heroic fathers with similar powersets/abilties. I'm also not too thrilled with using Plastic Man and Elongated Man as examples for Expys... while they do have similar "stretching" powers, there's a world of difference in them as characters, and degree of power (Plas is wisecracking immortal; Ralph Dibny is a private eye and family man with some stretchiness). You might as well say Mr. Fantastic and Ms. Marvel are the same character, since they have the same powers (and now picturing Reed Richards, middle-aged-man-with-children-and-60-degrees, in a high school story, being reacted to as if he were a Pakistani girl).

Your overall structure is good... I'm just being picky.

I'm... not entirely sure how Damien and Jon Kent being literal Juniors changes anything with the use of that term, honestly.

I'm well aware that Plastic Man and Elongated Man have very little in common nowadays aside from stretchiness, but back in the day, well... I used Plastic Man and Elongated Man as an example of expies because I have found repeated mention (attributed to Julius Schwartz) that Elongated Man was only created because the EiC (the aforementioned Julie Schwartz) didn't realize that DC had bought the rights to Plastic Man in 1956. Haven't been able to find any primary sources on it, but it's a pretty widespread thing, so take that as you will.

And picky is fine, heh- like I said, if we're finessing the terms that much, may as well nail 'em down as best we can.

EDIT: Hrm- random thought, would 'Legacy' work better than 'Junior'? They tend to be the characters that would, in the future, take the place of their inspiration once the protagonist ages out of their role (or loses it in some other fashion). That's DC's own terminology as well, generally speaking, which may or may not be a good thing, depending on your point of view, I suppose.

Mordar

2021-03-26, 04:21 PM

I'm... not entirely sure how Damien and Jon Kent being literal Juniors changes anything with the use of that term, honestly.

I'm well aware that Plastic Man and Elongated Man have very little in common nowadays aside from stretchiness, but back in the day, well... I used Plastic Man and Elongated Man as an example of expies because I have found repeated mention (attributed to Julius Schwartz) that Elongated Man was only created because the EiC (the aforementioned Julie Schwartz) didn't realize that DC had bought the rights to Plastic Man in 1956. Haven't been able to find any primary sources on it, but it's a pretty widespread thing, so take that as you will.

And picky is fine, heh- like I said, if we're finessing the terms that much, may as well nail 'em down as best we can.

EDIT: Hrm- random thought, would 'Legacy' work better than 'Junior'? They tend to be the characters that would, in the future, take the place of their inspiration once the protagonist ages out of their role (or loses it in some other fashion). That's DC's own terminology as well, generally speaking, which may or may not be a good thing, depending on your point of view, I suppose.

The Elongated/Plastic thing certainly rings true with me...have seen multiple articles in the past on the topic (often included in conversations about Cap Marvel/Shazam).

Hrm...Legacy. I feel that more appropriate for Alan Scott > Hal Jordan or Jay Garrick > Barry Allen then I do Barry Allen > Wally West. Since (absent time shenanigans, so moving away from speedsters) both Green Arrow and Speedy and participate in the same story at the same time I think them too contemporary to really have Speedy be the legacy of Arrow.

Legacy, to me, seems like it should be when the predecessor is out of the picture. However, going to the same school/joining the same fraternal order as a parent or sibling will get you the tag legacy, so what do I know...

-M

gellerche

2021-04-01, 04:07 PM

I don't know if you can find this book, but there was an issue where a bunch of, um, lesser-known characters competed to be Spider-Man's teammate. Due to their lack of skill and power they couldn't be his equal, but they really weren't sidekicks either. I refer to the hilarious The Amazing Spider-Man 266 from 1985.

(For those of you born in this millennium, the 80s was a wondrous time where we didn't have computers but we did have black jeans, poofy hair, and otherwise fluorescent clothing.)

Splinterverse

2021-04-18, 09:42 AM

I guess I can understand why he doesn't have a sidekick, but with the Spiderverse, you'd think at least one alt would have one. Fingers crossed it will happen eventually.

Psyren

2021-04-18, 11:32 AM

I guess I can understand why he doesn't have a sidekick, but with the Spiderverse, you'd think at least one alt would have one. Fingers crossed it will happen eventually.

I'm still compelled to ask why though. What sidekick dynamic could Peter have that we didn't get from Peter + Miles in ITS? Revisiting that dynamic for a sequel would be one thing, but coming up with some brand new sidekick would be something else entirely, and not effective imo.

Scarlet Knight

2021-04-18, 11:48 AM

I'm surprised nobody mentioned a basic premise: Peter Parker is a kid, living with his aunt. His thing was always loneliness, followed by trying to figure out his place in the world. How could he mentor anyone?

By time he was old enough, Gwen had been killed. He always felt responsibly for his uncles death, add in Gwen's death, so he tried to avoid endangering those he loved.

Spiderman was never a candidate to really have a sidekick other than to be filler after so many years .

Rater202

2021-04-18, 01:11 PM

That's a good point.

If you want Spider-Man with sidekicks, there are two things to look into.

There's Spider-Ma'am, a version of Aunt May who noticed that PEter forgot his lunch that day, rushed over to the demonstration and she was the one bitter by the spider.

In her universe, Peter makes her gadgets and both Peter and Uncle Ben have gadgets of their own so they can help her if need be.

There's also Spider-Ben and Spider-Pete, from a world where Uncle Ben was bitten by the spider... When Peter was still a little kid. As an adolescent, Peter got sick and a blood transfusion form Uncle Ben gave him spider powers. It's it's Uncle Ben as a superhero and a young Peter as his sidekick...

Though they've only really been in one story.

Willie the Duck

2021-04-19, 10:03 AM

I'm surprised nobody mentioned a basic premise: Peter Parker is a kid, living with his aunt. His thing was always loneliness, followed by trying to figure out his place in the world. How could he mentor anyone?
I think I touched on that pretty well:

Beyond that, one of the reasons why I think Spider-Man doesn't have a 'lessor' character following them around is that oftentimes the writers want to have Spider-Man fill that role. While having the protagonist hero(es) deal with doubt, insecurity, superheroics/mundane world conflicts, and so forth, with Spider-Man they make it a ubiquitous, if not constant, issue. Spider-Man is a kid/treated like a kid, not respected, economically struggling, whatever else the writers want to make him struggle with. He's the the Richie Cunningham/Eric Foreman, the Xander of the BVS gang, the Bumblebee to the Autobots (or at least is 25-75% of the time). If someone is there looking up to him, you have to explain away that character for the issue where Spider-Man is brooding into his milkshake about how everyone keeps treating him like a kid.

That's a good point.
If you want Spider-Man with sidekicks, there are two things to look into.

There's Spider-Ma'am, a version of Aunt May who noticed that PEter forgot his lunch that day, rushed over to the demonstration and she was the one bitter by the spider.

In her universe, Peter makes her gadgets and both Peter and Uncle Ben have gadgets of their own so they can help her if need be.

There's also Spider-Ben and Spider-Pete, from a world where Uncle Ben was bitten by the spider... When Peter was still a little kid. As an adolescent, Peter got sick and a blood transfusion form Uncle Ben gave him spider powers. It's it's Uncle Ben as a superhero and a young Peter as his sidekick...

Though they've only really been in one story.
Those both sound like interesting side stories/versions of the character. Given that we now have a whole Spider-Verse, it is too bad we haven't seen more of those specific versions.

Manga Shoggoth

2021-04-19, 10:40 AM

(For those of you born in this millennium, the 80s was a wondrous time where we didn't have computers but we did have black jeans, poofy hair, and otherwise fluorescent clothing.)

But we did have computers! The ZX80 and ZX81 came out in 1980 and 1981, and they were hardly the first computers, home or otherwise. We also had rainbow braces, which makes up for it a little bit.

The Glyphstone

2021-04-19, 10:49 AM

The 2020 Spider-Man video game has Miles Morales being mentored by Peter Parker, so that's something at least.

Ramza00

2021-04-19, 01:32 PM

But we did have computers! The ZX80 and ZX81 came out in 1980 and 1981, and they were hardly the first computers, home or otherwise. We also had rainbow braces, which makes up for it a little bit.

1971 Oregon Trail board game (but not published) created by a history teacher. Friends of the creator said this would make a great computer game and the computer can keep track of the book keeping and randomness. A few weeks later there was a video game version running on computers.
1974 a newer updated video game version.
1978 source code was shared on purpose.
1982 the Atari console port.
1984 the Apple II version in which the game now has colored graphics and is not just text.

Some people would argue this experience was so formative for children born in the mid 70s to early 80s that there was a transitional micro generation between Gen Xers and Millenials. They have traits of both groups but also separate experiences where they were born in the analog world, we see the first computers when they were children prior to teenage years and during their teenage years we see the transition from analog to digital yet prior to the World Wide Web becoming popular / mainstream. The “Oregon Trail micro generation.”

Psyren

2021-04-19, 04:20 PM

Those both sound like interesting side stories/versions of the character. Given that we now have a whole Spider-Verse, it is too bad we haven't seen more of those specific versions.

I view those more as gags with very limited shelf-life.

Willie the Duck

2021-04-20, 08:25 AM

1971 Oregon Trail board game (but not published) created by a history teacher. Friends of the creator said this would make a great computer game and the computer can keep track of the book keeping and randomness. A few weeks later there was a video game version running on computers.
1974 a newer updated video game version.
1978 source code was shared on purpose.
1982 the Atari console port.
1984 the Apple II version in which the game now has colored graphics and is not just text.

Some people would argue this experience was so formative for children born in the mid 70s to early 80s that there was a transitional micro generation between Gen Xers and Millenials. They have traits of both groups but also separate experiences where they were born in the analog world, we see the first computers when they were children prior to teenage years and during their teenage years we see the transition from analog to digital yet prior to the World Wide Web becoming popular / mainstream. The “Oregon Trail micro generation.”

Minnesotan born to that demographic here. One of the Oregon Trail creators (so Don Rawitsch, Bill Heinemann, or Paul Dillenberger. Sadly do not remember which) came to my middle school and told the story of how that game came about. Definitely kick-started plenty of my cohort to start taking programming classes. :smallbiggrin:

I view those more as gags with very limited shelf-life.
Oh, to be sure there's not many places to take it. What I'm saying is that having multi-verses (and specifically a 'spider verse' since I'm assuming they will want to do a sequel to that film, given the reception) is that you can drop said characters into a multi-SpideMan scrum and have fun with where-ever that takes you. They did that once with Wolverine in Marvel Exiles (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Exiles_Vol_1_85) -- taking a bunch of different fan favorite (and not-so-favorite) versions of Wolverine and putting them all on a bizarre fetch quest to stop a Wolverine-Mesmero hybrid from taking control of hundreds of different wolverines from across the multiverse (including some visually interesting things, like hulk-wolverine and thing-wolverine). It... was really fun for a one-off thing.

Precure

2021-04-21, 06:48 AM

At some point In 2000s he himself became Iron Man's sidekick.

Rater202

2021-04-21, 08:20 AM

At some point In 2000s he himself became Iron Man's sidekick.

I mean, not really.

First, he was the New Avengers "science guy" and then Civil War happened and Tony essentially emotionally manipulated Peter into becoming a figurehead for the pro-registration side.

Which directly lead to One More Day.

Then Peter realized that Tony was the bad guy and switched to Cap's team.

That's not really a sidekick.

dps

2021-04-21, 01:05 PM

I'm far from an expert on the subject, but to my knowledge, aside from the gods-know-how-many Robins (and Batgirls, if they count, not sure on those), I don't think there's actually all that many sidekicks out there - at least not of any note. Kid Flash, Aqualad, Speedy, Bucky... and pretty much after that you're starting to get into obscure territory.

Best as I can tell, most of the DC Golden Age superheroes did in fact have sidekicks, but most of those Golden Age superheroes are themselves obscure nowadays.

TeChameleon

2021-04-21, 02:47 PM

True, although the Golden Age sidekick situation could get very strange- as an example, for a period of time, the Golden Age Green Lantern, Alan Scott, was himself a sidekick. To a dog named Streak. The Flash (version 1.0, Jay Garrick) had a trio of sidekicks, three tramps named Winky, Blinky and Nod, collectively known as 'The Three Dimwits', who also somehow were high-tech inventors..? And Wonder Woman had Etta Candy (who has since reappeared in the rebooted universes as a member of the military, for whatever reason) who was a short, plump college girl with an obsession for candy (subtle, the Golden Age wasn't) and who kicked a surprising amount of ass for an overweight four-foot(-ish) (probably-)teenager. Plastic Man had his buddy Woozy Winks, a short, fat guy who occasionally came up with some good ideas and otherwise provided comic relief and someone for Plas to talk to. The Star-Spangled Kid flipped the script a bit, with the kid being, well, a kid, and an adult sidekick named Stripesy, who was just a big guy in a striped shirt while the Kid had actual powers.

... honestly, looking at it, the 'little-boy-reader-identification-conduit-sidekick' was a relatively late innovation- many, if not most, of the pre-Robin sidekicks were adults who served as comic relief and to save the hero from having to talk to themselves all the time.

Callos_DeTerran

2021-04-21, 05:12 PM

Red Sonja and Kulan Gath are examples of how not being careful with this kind of thing can bite you in the ass.

Marvel had the license to publish comics about Conan the Barbarian—In fact, Marvel's Conan comics are as important as Howard's original stories when it comes to the popular conception of what "Conan" is and is what "coined" Conan The Barbarian as his official title.

Red Sonja and Kulan Gath are Marvel original characters created as a side character and a recurring villain, respectively, in Marel's Conan comics before spinning off—Red Sonja to her own title and Gath became more her villain than Conan's. But because they first appeared in the Conan title, Marvel lost the rights to them when their license for Conan expired.

Marvel has the rights to Conan back and the rights to Kulan Gath now... But Red Sonja is still owned by a company that did not create her.

It's particularly awkward because Marvel depicted their Conan stories as taking place in the ancient past of the Earth 616 setting(And some elements from Conan ended up permanently part of Marvel lore), and Mary-Jane Watson, Spider-Man's romantic partner, is explicitly Red Sonja reincarnated—she's twice been possessed by Sonja's memories

...Marvel lost the rights to Red Sonja when their license expired because Marvel did not create Red Sonja, she already existed in Howard's works (a Ukranian riflewoman). Marvel took the name, and trademark, and turned her into a Conan character but she is still very much not Marvel's invention. Just the chainmail bikini wearing, axe wielding version of her.

And I would point out that the movie, Conan the Barbarian, has far more to do with people's conceptions of what Conan is (along with the original stories) than Marvel comics. Most notably because Conan bounces around from comic company to comic company and it would be difficult to pin down exactly WHICH comic book company made Conan comic-famous.

Scarlet Knight

2021-04-21, 05:29 PM

...
And I would point out that the movie, Conan the Barbarian, has far more to do with people's conceptions of what Conan is (along with the original stories) than Marvel comics...

I would submit Frank Frazetta did more than either...

http://ipaintingsforsale.com/painting-imgs/Frank%20Frazetta/big/Conan%20the%20Adventurer.jpg

Rater202

2021-04-21, 05:31 PM

...Marvel lost the rights to Red Sonja when their license expired because Marvel did not create Red Sonja, she already existed in Howard's works (a Ukranian riflewoman). Marvel took the name, and trademark, and turned her into a Conan character but she is still very muh not Marvel's invention.

And I would point out that the movie, Conan the Barbarian, has far more to do with people's conceptions of what Conan is (along with the original stories) than Marvel comics. Most notably because Conan bounces around from comic company to comic company and it would be difficult to pin down exactly WHICH comic book company made Conan comic-famous.

1: Red Sonja is based on the similarly named Ukrainian character, she is considered to be distinct enough to be a legally distinct character. Marvel lost the rights to her becuase she appeared in a Conan comic prior to getting her own series. Legally, that's the reason.

2: Marvel published Conan comics from 1970 to 2000.

For three entire decades, Marvel was the go-to for Conan stories that weren't the original Howard stories.

Marvel also popularized the title: Conan the Barbarian was used exactly once in a collection of Howard's short stories. Then Marvel got the license to publish comics about Conan and titled them Conan The Barbarian.

You think of Conan as "The Barbarian" and not "The Cimmerian" or "The Adventurer" or "The Conquerer" or any of the dozens of names and titles he's had over the years becuase of Marvel comics.

Arguably, the Movie was influenced by the comics: Thulsa Doom was the villain of the Movie... But had no connection to Conan whatsoever, appearing in stories of one of Howard's other heroes, prior to that movie and his depiction appears to be more similar to Marvel's depiction of Thoth-Amon than to any other depiction of Thulsa Doom in any media before that film.

Peelee

2021-04-21, 05:59 PM

1: Red Sonja is based on the similarly named Ukrainian character, she is considered to be distinct enough to be a legally distinct character.

Is she? It sure sounds like Red Sonja, LLC. admitted that Red Sonja was not too distinct from Red Sonya to be a distinct entity by paying for the rights to Red Sonya:
On June 6, 2006, the comic news site Newsarama reported that Red Sonja, LLC (which holds rights to the Roy Thomas version of the character, created in 1973)[37] filed a lawsuit on four counts against Paradox Entertainment (which claims rights to Red Sonya as part of the Howard library) in US Federal Court in April 2006. The four counts were claims of copyright infringement, trademark infringement, trademark dilution, and unfair competition.[38] The lawsuit was settled in January 2008, on the second day of the hearing, for a sum of $1 each. Red Sonja LLC paid $1 to Paradox for the rights to Howard's Red Sonya and permission for the Red Sonja stories to continue being set in Conan's Hyborian Age. Paradox simultaneously paid $1 to Red Sonja LLC for the exclusive print-publication rights for "The Shadow of the Vulture" now that one of the characters belongs to Red Sonja LLC.[39]

Rater202

2021-04-21, 06:03 PM

Is she? It sure sounds like Red Sonja, LLC. admitted that Red Sonja was not too distinct from Red Sonya to be a distinct entity by paying for the rights to Red Sonya:
That happened after the rights were lost though.

And honestly, that seems more like a case of corporations and companies getting up to squirrely business and then backing down when they find something more profitable by not by not being jerkweasles.

Red Sonja was a legally distinct character from Red Sonya in the early 2000s when Marvel lost the rights.

What happened was that the specific license Marvel had for Howard's works had a clause that meant that any original characters who first appeared in a title centered around a Howard character would revert to the Howard Estate when the license expired.

This is also why Marvel made no references to the immortal, time-traveling Sorcerer Kulan Gath, except during the intercompany crossover Spider-Man/Red Sonja which was co-published with the new owners of the Sonya IP, for almost 20 years until they got the Conan license back.

Peelee

2021-04-21, 07:04 PM

That happened after the rights were lost though.
...and? This is a civil issue, it's only going to get called into question when challenged. And, when challenged, the owners of Red Sonja elected to pay the owners of Red Sonya for the rights.

And honestly, that seems more like a case of corporations and companies getting up to squirrely business and then backing down when they find something more profitable by not by not being jerkweasles.

CRed Sonja was a legally distinct character from Red Sonya in the early 2000s when Marvel lost the rights.
Same answer as above.

What happened was that the specific license Marvel had for Howard's works had a clause that meant that any original characters who first appeared in a title centered around a Howard character would revert to the Howard Estate when the license expired.
If Marvel had a specific license for Howard's works, and Red Sonya is one of Howard's works, then unless I'm missing a specific clause about her, it sounds like Marvel had a license for Red Sonya, which would explain the lack of any legal challenge over Red Sonja.

Rater202

2021-04-21, 07:21 PM

...and? This is a civil issue, it's only going to get called into question when challenged. And, when challenged, the owners of Red Sonja elected to pay the owners of Red Sonya for the rights.But prior to that incident, Red Sonjya the Barbarian warrior who was imbued with superhuman strength and agility by a covenant with her god that forbade her to lay with a man unless he bested her in combat was legally distinct from her inspiration, Red Sonya, ukranian riflewoman, despite being inspired by the earlier character.

She ceased being legally distinct when and only when there was a civil suit regarding the similarity between the original character and the, honestly radically different, character inspired by her and the embers of that case agreed to settle.

But, at the time Marvel lost the rights, they lost them becuase of a clause in their licenses for Howards Work that gave the rights of any Marvel original character that debuted in an adaption of Howard's works to Howard's estate when the license expired. At the time, she was considered a Marvel original property and they lost her becuase of this clause, not becuase she wasn't distinct from her inspiration.

Which means that, had Marvel debuted Red Sonja in a completly original story and only then had her appear in Conan stories, instead of introducing her in a Conan story and then spinning her off into Hyborean Age adaptions of the Red Sonya stories, Marvel would have held onto her even after they lost the rights to Howard's IP and that lawsuit might not have happened to begin with.

Peelee

2021-04-21, 07:25 PM

But prior to that incident, Red Sonjya the Barbarian warrior who was imbued with superhuman strength and agility by a covenant with her god that forbade her to lay with a man unless he bested her in combat was legally distinct from her inspiration, Red Sonya, ukranian riflewoman, despite being inspired by the earlier character.

A.) A court case would be a short, succinct, inarguable way of proving your case.
2.) What the ****, Marvel?

Rater202

2021-04-21, 07:34 PM

2.) What the ****, Marvel?

She made the choice to enter that covenant and under most writers it was depicted as "she's allowed to sleep with a man only if he can beat her in a fight" rather than "she has to sleep with a man who defats her in a fight."

Keltest

2021-04-21, 07:45 PM

She made the choice to enter that covenant and under most writers it was depicted as "she's allowed to sleep with a man only if he can beat her in a fight" rather than "she has to sleep with a man who defats her in a fight."

It was pointed out to me, possibly by you, that this clause may have specifically been there to protect her in the event of rape.

Peelee

2021-04-21, 07:57 PM

She made the choice to enter that covenant
She's fictional and only chooses whatever the person writes her wants her to choose, so that's not a whole lot of solace.

and under most writers it was depicted as "she's allowed to sleep with a man only if he can beat her in a fight" rather than "she has to sleep with a man who defats her in a fight."
That's definitely better, but still pretty messed up.

Rater202

2021-04-21, 08:21 PM

She's fictional and only chooses whatever the person writes her wants her to choose, so that's not a whole lot of solace.

That's definitely better, but still pretty messed up.I mean, is it messed up when a D&D 3.5 character takes a feat from the Sacred Vow tree? BEcuase that's basically what she did, made a pact with a benevolent deity where she abstains from certain behaviors in exchange for a supernatural boon.

Though, to be fair to your PoV, Sonja's current owners have essentially rebooted her and removed that vow from her character in her current canon. Even introduced a similar character with a similar vow(a man who can only sleep with females warriors who have best him in battle, which is more strict than Sonja's if you think about it) solely to point out how stupid it is.

Peelee

2021-04-21, 08:49 PM

I mean, is it messed up when a D&D 3.5 character takes a feat from the Sacred Vow tree? BEcuase that's basically what she did, made a pact with a benevolent deity where she abstains from certain behaviors in exchange for a supernatural boon.

If I play with a person who takes such a feat, links it specifically to sex, and then plays a sexed-up caricature? Yeah. I likely wouldnt have much interest in playing with that person.

Callos_DeTerran

2021-04-21, 08:54 PM

Though, to be fair to your PoV, Sonja's current owners have essentially rebooted her and removed that vow from her character in her current canon. Even introduced a similar character with a similar vow(a man who can only sleep with females warriors who have best him in battle, which is more strict than Sonja's if you think about it) solely to point out how stupid it is.

...Well that's dumb.

Also, wrong from before. I think of Conan as 'the Barbarian' entirely because of the movie and then because of non-Howard books and then Howard's stories. I never even knew that Conan had comics until much later. And when I did, it was IDW's comics before Marvel's. Is that normal for Conan fans? Have no sweet clue but the fact he's a comic book character was probably the last facet of the character I became aware of and probably the least interesting (though Savage Avengers is a concept so out there I kind of want to read it).

As for the movie being influenced by the comics, I have my doubts considering...well..Thoth-Amon was again in the Conan stories before the comics. He was not an invention of Marvel (not that you claimed as much) nor did Marvel invent Thoth-Amon's characterization. That'd be The Phoenix on the Sword. And considering the fact when the majority of people imagine Conan speaking in an Austrian accent and being a dumb(ish) brute would point towards the movies being bigger than Howard's stories and definitely the comics.

Rater202

2021-04-21, 09:04 PM

I think of Conan as 'the Barbarian' entirely because of the movie

The Movie was called "Conan the Barbarian" becuase of the comics.

The term "Conan the Barbarian" had been used exactly once prior to Marvel using "Conan the Barbarian" as the title of their Conan licensed comics. The Marvel Comics Conan stories are what popularized that moniker.

By the time the movie was made "The Barbarian" was cemented in the collective consciousness of the fanbase becuase of the comics.

That's what I meant.

dps

2021-04-21, 11:56 PM

I mean, not really.

First, he was the New Avengers "science guy" and then Civil War happened and Tony essentially emotionally manipulated Peter into becoming a figurehead for the pro-registration side.

Which directly lead to One More Day.

Then Peter realized that Tony was the bad guy and switched to Cap's team.

That's not really a sidekick.

I think he may have been referring mostly to the Avengers MCU movies, and not so much to the comic books. And I think the remark was largely meant in jest, anyway.

Callos_DeTerran

2021-04-22, 12:08 AM

The Movie was called "Conan the Barbarian" becuase of the comics.

The term "Conan the Barbarian" had been used exactly once prior to Marvel using "Conan the Barbarian" as the title of their Conan licensed comics. The Marvel Comics Conan stories are what popularized that moniker.

By the time the movie was made "The Barbarian" was cemented in the collective consciousness of the fanbase becuase of the comics.

That's what I meant.

That's..not true either though?

The movie was in planning the exact same year as Marvel comics began their Conan the Barbarian series (1970). And by the time the movie was being pitched/entering production (1975-77) Marvel had already dropped the Conan the Barbarian series for the Savage Sword of Conan which is Marvel's most popular run not just with the character but apparently for Conan comics in general. The Savage Sword of Conan was one of the most popular comic series of the 1970s and if the movie took the moniker for its title from the Marvel comics, it would have been called 'The Savage Sword of Conan' and not Conan the Barbarian considering the movie finally debuted in 1982. Well after it would be well known that 'The Savage Sword of Conan' would be how to lure in comic fans, but that wasn't really the point.

In other words, there was a 'Conan the Barbarian' movie in the works before the comics even would have had a chance to get successful, let alone be influenced by them. And while the movie was being made, Marvel's success with Conan wasn't under the 'Conan the Barbarian' moniker but a different one but the filmmakers used Conan the Barbarian anyway because the character was already well known by that moniker despite the fact it only appeared as the title of a story once because that was already engrained in the public consciousness thanks to Weird Tales and Frank Frazetta.

...And now I want to look up how expensive Savage Sword of Conan comics might be, so thank Rater. :smalltongue:

Scarlet Knight

2021-04-23, 06:27 AM

She's fictional and only chooses whatever the person writes her wants her to choose, so that's not a whole lot of solace...

That's definitely better, but still pretty messed up.

Not by 1970's standards.

Willie the Duck

2021-04-23, 07:57 AM

Not by 1970's standards.

Yes, the 1970s were indeed pretty messed up.:smallbiggrin:

Thane of Fife

2021-04-24, 08:34 AM

Is she? It sure sounds like Red Sonja, LLC. admitted that Red Sonja was not too distinct from Red Sonya to be a distinct entity by paying for the rights to Red Sonya:

I'm not a lawyer, but I think you're reading that backwards. It reads to me that Red Sonja, LLC was worried that because they were legally distinct, someone else could use Howard's Red Sonya character in ways that they wouldn't be able to control, but which would potentially reflect on their Red Sonja character. Therefore, they sued Paradox with the intent of establishing that the characters were not legally distinct, and that they owned both of them.

Paradox appears to have not been confident that the ruling would go in their favor, so they sold/gave the rights to Red Sonya to Red Sonja, LLC, in exchange for the right to continue publishing the story that she appears in.

2.) What the ****, Marvel?

In the first Red Sonja novel, Roy Thomas wrote an introduction where he attributes this as coming from/being inspired by a play he particularly liked, William Butler Yeats' On Baile's Strand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Baile%27s_Strand), where apparently a similar line is used to refer to the Irish warrior queen Aife:

I overheard her telling that she never had but one lover, and that he was the only man who overcame her in battle.