Is this how a 1-20 Fighter "should" be made

[Jon talks a lot]

Disclaimer: When I say should, I mean from a mechanics standpoint. The best build is the one you and your friends find the most fun, and that's the one you should play.

Race: vHuman
Class: Fighter 20
Subclass: Champion
Ability Scores: 15+1 STR, 11 DEX, 15+1 CON, 8 INT, 13 WIS, 8 CHA
ASI’s: Polearm Master @1, +2 STR @4, Heavy Armor Master @6, Sentinel @8, Great Weapon Master @12, +2 CON @14, Alert @16, Lucky @19
Fighting Style: Defense or Dueling

The combo of sentinel, polearm master, and great weapon master is well known for its ridiculous power. Is taking advantage of this combo and critfishing with superior critical not just a viable strategy, but the most viable strategy for a level 20 fighter?

Are there any other extremely powerful fighter builds that don't involve multiclassing?

[TyGuy]

I think most opt for battlemaster over champion.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Why do you have Dex 11 and Wis 13? Why not 10 and 14? You're taking Heavy Armor Master which gives you +1 Str, so your build ends with Str 19, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 8, fairly suboptimal considering all the odd-numbered stats.

You have GWM but nothing that gives your character advantage to attack.

I'd say a Rune Knight is more powerful than a Champion. It doesn't get the crit-fishing but everything else it gets more than makes up for that IMO.

[bid]

Is taking advantage of this combo and critfishing with superior critical not just a viable strategy, but the most viable strategy for a level 20 fighter?
Critfishing works great with 4 attacks and is a viable strategy at level 20.
- You get your GWM BA half the time, making PAM somewhat redundant.
- HAM loses its shine since you aren't getting non-magical B/S/P damage.
- Dueling style definitely won't work with GWM.
You're more likely to have Str20 and maybe resilient(Wis) for those DC saves above indomitable expectations.

If you are leveling, champion is underpowered until level 10-11. You only play it if you believe the Stormwind Fallacy.

[Greywander]

You're taking the Great Weapon Master feat but considering the Dueling fighting style? Aren't these mutually exclusive? You can use Dueling with PAM if you use a spear or quarterstaff.

My worry is that this might be overspecialized. You're grabbing things that make you a little better at doing the one thing you're already good at, when you could be rounding out your character to make them more applicable to a broader variety of circumstances. For example, what's your answer to flying enemies? You could put a couple of those ASIs into DEX and grab a longbow, or pick up Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper for a ranged cantrip. Something Like Mobile makes more sense for a rogue or monk, but you could use it as well to offer a different style of play (namely, running past enemies while smacking each of them once to avoid OAs).

I'm also surprised you mention crit fishing, but then go for a human instead of an elf for Elven Accuracy. Fighters get more feats than anyone anyway, if there's one class that doesn't need the extra feat from vHuman it's the fighter. In this case, I'd take the Blind Fighting style and get Magic Initiate (Fog Cloud) or something so that you have a way to generate your own advantage.

Another strong fighter build is just a Rune Knight with Skill Expert (Athletics). One of the best grapplers in the game, and the rest of the time, you're still a fighter. Given that this only requires one feat, you still have plenty more ASIs to spend making yourself good at other things.

Eldritch Knights can also be quite strong if you pick spells that naturally support their fighting ability (and also Fireball, because it really is that good). Shield is excellent, Enlarge/Reduce gives you a bit of extra damage and is another great way to build a grappler, and Counterspell is always nice to have in those clutch moments against a mage. You can also pick up Darkness for use with the Blind Fighting style, bonus points if you have a warlock with Devil's Sight in your party as well. If you're on the defensive, you can Blade Ward and still make one attack. EKs are strong, just don't try to out-blast the wizard or sorcerer, because you're still a martial (that said, Fireball is still really good; there's nothing better for clearing out massive hordes of things like goblins or kobolds that would take you all day to mow through using weapon attacks). IMO, it's almost better to think of Fireball as a control spell that reduces incoming damage by simply eliminating large groups of weak creatures. It's like putting up a wall that cuts the enemies' forces in half, except it doesn't require concentration and you don't have to fight the other half later. With this in mind, it makes perfect sense for an EK to pick up Fireball.

[Eldariel]

Critfishing...

It doesn't really do much with only weapon dice, less even without a reliable source of advantage and Elven Accuracy. A good critfisher needs damage to multiply, not just 18-20 critrange. Doubly true when most of your damage comes from GWM, which doesn't get multiplied. The damage type feats are good to this end, for at least one more die to reroll (but it's still nothing compared to Booming Blade or Sneak Attack or Smite or such).

@OP: Resilient: Wis is borderline mandatory. I'd take it before Alert even, especially since you are melee and thus might not be able to affect enemy even if you go first, and since you're DPR-only, going first might not do much (unless you literally one-round them).

For most powerful, EK is really good up here and Archery builds in general outperform melee builds. Champion mostly gets upstaged by Rune Knight, Samurai, and Battlemaster as well.

[Composer99]

Let's say you go spear-and-shield for PAM + Duelling.

At 3rd level as a Champion with that statline against AC 14, with a 10% crit chance and 35% miss chance, your average damage per attack is (.35 x 0)+(.1 x 12) + (.55 x 8.5) = 5.875. Slightly less for your bonus action PAM attack.

At 3rd level as a Battlemaster with that statline against AC 14, with a 5% crit chance and 35% miss chance, your average damage per attack without a Superiority Die added to the damage is (.35 x 0) + (.05 x 12) + (.6 x 8.5) = 5.7. With a Superiority Die added to the damage, that becomes (0.35 x 0) + (.05 x 21) + (.6 x 13) = 8.85. And if you picked up Precision Attack as one of your manoeuvres, you can convert some misses to hits in there. Again, your bonus action PAM attack does a bit less.

If you're looking for straight damage on weapon attacks, Battlemaster is far and away a better choice.

Other fighter subclasses, in the meantime, offer utility options that Champion can't compete with: skill and Wisdom save proficiencies for samurai, spells for eldritch knight, runes for rune knight. And while I haven't done the math here, I'm sure someone has on some thread or other showing they keep up with or outcompete Champion for damage.

If you really want to play a Champion fighter from 1st level all the way to 20th, go nuts if you want.

But the Champion's features do not suffice to consider it a "must-have" or "should" option for fighters writ large.

[Droppeddead]

Is taking advantage of this combo and critfishing with superior critical not just a viable strategy, but the most viable strategy for a level 20 fighter?

The short answer? No.

[stoutstien]

The best no nonsense crit fishing fighter is probably some form of elf ranged samurai. Saying that critical are just not that impressive unless you really build for both crit chance and have a lot of additional dice to multiply.

[CTurbo]

That's too hyper-focused on offense for me. I prefer more well rounded Fighters. Any level 20 Fighter for me is going to have Res(Wis) and Ritual Caster considering the complete lack of utility the Fighter class offers. Even on a GWM build, I'd probably take Defense and Archery so I won't be garbage at making ranged attacks with a low Dex.

[diplomancer]

Apart from the unoptimal stats (only reason to start with 13 Wis is to get Resilient Wisdom at some point), this character is horribly lacking in ranged options; it's not as bad as the Tarrasque, that I belive can be killed by a level 1 Cleric on a flying mount, since you can always grab a longbow, but any level appropriate flying challenge with good ranged options will make mincemeat of you.

That said, if you really want to specialize that much in melee, I'd not take the +2 Con ASI (getting Res:Wis instead), and either get +2 Str instead of HAM or Crusher instead of Alert.

[Unoriginal]

Race: Githyanki
Class: Fighter 20
Subclass: Psi Warrior
Ability Scores: 16 (14+2) STR, 8 DEX, 13 CON, 16 (15+1 INT), 13 WIS, 12 CHA
ASIs: +2 STR @ 4, +1 Con + 1 WIS @ 6, Telepathic (INT) @ 8, Telekinetic (INT) @ 12, +2 STR @ 14, +2 INT @ 16, +2 CON @ 19

Fighting Style: Superior Technique (Disarming Attack)


Result:

https://31.media.tumblr.com/a8041999bbc008cfbbca78bb8716f55d/tumblr_inline_mzi365CKw01qjoxn0.gif

[Dalinar]

Jon, no disrespect, but I already know you know of two 1-20 fighters that are better than this from Ludic's thread (the two Samurai builds). I feel clickbaited.

If you want to build a 1-20 Champion specifically around its 18-20 crit range, here's what I'd suggest:

Elven Accuracy is mandatory. On an attack to which EA applies, you have about a 27% crit chance when you get 19 crit, more once you get 18 crit (I don't know the math for that offhand like I do for 19).

A way to give yourself advantage is mandatory. I'd suggest grabbing both the Superior Technique fighting style and the Martial Adept feat, to get two d6s to use on Tripping Attack; if you don't want to spend one of those, you also have four attacks to shove somebody prone with. Skill Expert (Athletics) will help you there. Blind-fighting with a heavy obscuration effect like Fog Cloud is also an option, though you'll need a feat for the latter.

Dealing with the melee fighter's usual counters is also mandatory. No losing to a level 1 Aarakocra Cleric! This means Res:WIS ASAP so you don't get Dominate Person'd and wipe your own team out, and either a half-decent DEX to use with a longbow or failing that maybe Spell Sniper or Magic Initiate.

Consider dropping GWM. The 10 extra damage is great, but not multiplied on a crit. That said, you still have up to five attacks per round counting PAM, and 50 flat damage is nothing to sneeze at if you have EA running anyway (obviously a little less since it'll make you miss sometimes).

Strongly consider Fey-touched to grab Hex. The damage bonus is multiplied on a crit, and you're doing a lot of individual hits rather than a single big one like an Assassin. Misty Step is always useful for melee as well. Put the +1 in WIS.

TBH, I don't think we're at Sorcadin levels of crit-fishing yet, but I'm low on ideas.

[Willie the Duck]

Race: Githyanki
Class: Fighter 20
Subclass: Psi Warrior
Ability Scores: 16 (14+2) STR, 8 DEX, 13 CON, 16 (15+1 INT), 13 WIS, 12 CHA
ASIs: +2 STR @ 4, +1 Con + 1 WIS @ 6, Telepathic (INT) @ 8, Telekinetic (INT) @ 12, +2 STR @ 14, +2 INT @ 16, +2 CON @ 19
Fighting Style: Superior Technique (Disarming Attack)

Personally I am toying with:
Class: Fighter 20
Subclass: Eldritch Knight
Race: Hagspawn (UA) -if un-allowed, change to V. Human, change fey-touched spell to Hex, and pick up Telekinetic (and +1 Wis)
Ability Scores: S10 D:20[15+1+2+2] C14 I:16[13+1+1+1] W:13[12+1] Ch8
ASIs: ASI(+2 Dex), ASI(+2Dex), Fey Touched (Bless, Misty Step), Resilient(Wis), Shadow Touched (Silent Image, Invisibility), Sharpshooter
Fighting Style: archery
The overall damage output will be less than a focused damage dealer, but the versatility will be phenomenal.

[Unoriginal]

Personally I am toying with:
Class: Fighter 20
Subclass: Eldritch Knight
Race: Hagspawn (UA) -if un-allowed, change to V. Human, change fey-touched spell to Hex, and pick up Telekinetic (and +1 Wis)
Ability Scores: S10 D:20[15+1+2+2] C14 I:16[13+1+1+1] W:13[12+1] Ch8
ASIs: ASI(+2 Dex), ASI(+2Dex), Fey Touched (Bless, Misty Step), Resilient(Wis), Shadow Touched (Silent Image, Invisibility), Sharpshooter
Fighting Style: archery
The overall damage output will be less than a focused damage dealer, but the versatility will be phenomenal.

This build would have good attack, defense, mobility and stealth, and will be pretty amazing as a ranged combatant, but I'm not sure what you mean by "the versatility will be phenomenal".

[Willie the Duck]

This build would have good attack, defense, mobility and stealth, and will be pretty amazing as a ranged combatant, but I'm not sure what you mean by "the versatility will be phenomenal".

Compared to a champion. EK's in general do so, but this expands the options significantly (illusions for infiltration, bless for team support, misty step freeing up the EK non-abj/evoc spells, telekinetic to shape the battlefield/get a buddy out of trouble).

[Nagog]

Subclass: Champion


This is where you've lost me. Champion has one interesting facet, in that it has an expanded crit range, but it's an entirely passive subclass. Nothing the subclass gives you is something you actively use, and while that ability isn't bad, it limits an already limited class chassis to being a one-trick pony.



The combo of sentinel, polearm master, and great weapon master is well known for its ridiculous power. Is taking advantage of this combo and critfishing with superior critical not just a viable strategy, but the most viable strategy for a level 20 fighter?


It's a decent strategy for damage output, sure, but it's completely disregarding any defensive measures, any tactically minded opponents, and anything that isn't just going to let you stand there and smack it to death.



Are there any other extremely powerful fighter builds that don't involve multiclassing?

Battle Master and Samurai are both decent, but I'm of the opinion that most, if not all, of the Fighter subclasses are entirely too flat. It's great to be combat oriented and good at hitting things, but combat is far more than that (as I've already stated), and most subclasses don't touch on those. I've created a subclass myself that fixes that, in that it focuses on stances and forms that grant different effects for different roles to fill in combat (Defensive, Offensive, and Mobility) based in large part on varying fighting styles and stances explored in Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive. This subclass also grants a few out of combat abilities that keep Fighters relevant in social situations, as most fighters lack that expanded versatility.

[TalksAlone]

Some points of personal opinion concerning general STR Fighter optimization:

- I see very little incentive to do anything other than 20 STR by level 6. Maybe there are other builds that do better at specific things, but generally you will never regret having max STR. Especially so early and with Extra Attacks throughout the character's career. So Half-Feats are excellent and +2 STR races are best.

- Fighters' damage in general scales very well with advantage on attack rolls, especially with the Great Weapon Master Feat. So, whatever one can do to avoid losing advantages due to having disadvantage on attack rolls to begin with will out-scale any other possible upgrades.
One source of disadvantage to attack rolls that can specifically come up often is lack of sight. Be that lack of Darkvision in dimly lit places, be that completely dark places, be that various sources of line of sight obstruction. So I'm fairly convinced the Blind Fighting style is the best one, and Darkvision may even be better than a Feat. That being said, having both would likely be overkill for a melee STR Fighter. Of the two, Blind Fighting likely solves the problem best, except in regards to ranged attacks (not as important).

- As to what subclass to pick, personally I think the general idea of a Polearm Master + Sentinel Fighter is mostly accomplished by the Cavalier's Hold the Line class feature. Opening two slots for different feats to customize or specialize the character. Plus, there is a lot of utility packed in there. Constitution is also useful for the subclass.

- To me, in a group, a very important skill for a Fighter to have is Athletics. Someone needs to be at least competent, and preferably good at it. With Tasha's now making possible to have double proficiency bonus to any skill attached to a half-feat makes it very attractive, even a must.

In conclusion the character I would call the most generally optimized STR Fighter is something like:

Race: vHuman
Class: Fighter 20
Subclass: Cavalier
Ability Scores: 15+1 STR, 11 DEX, 15+1 CON, 8 INT, 13 WIS, 8 CHA
ASI’s: Heavy Armor Master (+1 STR) @1, Skill Expert (Athletics, +1 STR) @4, +2 STR @6, Great Weapon Master @8, Resilient (+1 WIS) @12, Whatever you want @14,@16,@19.
Fighting Style: Blind Fighting.

Truthfully the build does everything it sets out to do at level 10. Everything else after that is purely up to preference, except perhaps Resilient (WIS). Purely because the boost to one of the most-often rolled saves is just awesome enough to boost the character's efficiency.

Suggested skill proficiencies:
Athletics, Acrobatics and Perception, plus the Background's (something with Insight may be useful with your decent WIS). Make sure to take Animal Handling with the 3rd level subclass feature.

[J-H]

Huh. For some reason, Cavalier looks a lot better now than it did the last time I read through it.

Hit, get Iron Guard's Glare any time you want. Reaction attack 5/day (with STR 20).
Reaction warding, 3-5 times per day (based on CON).
OA on any movement.
Charge & knock prone 1/round.
Super-Combat Reflexes at level 18.

Utility of the OAs depends on enemy mobility. DM ruling needed on how Hold the Line interacts with the Disengage action... but it's a mini-Battlemaster with a good knockdown and party defense role.

For a fighter, I'd also consider the Skilled feat. Proficiency in 3 extra skills enhances a lot of options.

[Man_Over_Game]

A long time ago, I was working on a series of threads (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616164-Let-s-Fix-The-Arcane-Archer) where we, as a community, worked together to fix some of the bigger issues with several of the subclasses.

Part of this required a thorough analysis of where each subclass sits in terms of power level.

For Fighter, the estimated daily gains you get for the 4 most straightforward (and easily quantifiable) subclasses are:
Champion (+4.2), Samurai (+35), Arcane Archer (+69), Battlemaster (+54-96).
(These numbers are assuming each level 5 Fighter is using GWM/SS while having 3 fights per day, each lasting 3 rounds, with a Short Rest in between each fight.)

Unfortunately, the 5% increased weapon damage on the Champion (and later 10%) will almost always fall short compared to getting Advantage on an attack. Not only does having Advantage have the bonus of increasing your overall accuracy, but it nearly doubles your crit chance. Your chances of rolling a 20 goes from 5% to 9.75%, vs. the Champion's 5% to 10%.

Since the other Fighters get bonuses from short or long rests, the Champion can only ever catch up if there is a really niche situation of having lots of combat rounds without any kind of rest (like 50 rounds' worth, since we're talking about +~0.65 damage per turn). Which is less than ideal when your entire class identity is "Do this one thing, then do it again next round". 50 rounds without rest? Yeah, not thinking so.



TLDR: CHAMPION SUCKS

[Fynzmirs]

Disclaimer: When I say should, I mean from a mechanics standpoint. The best build is the one you and your friends find the most fun, and that's the one you should play.

Race: vHuman
Class: Fighter 20
Subclass: Champion
Ability Scores: 15+1 STR, 11 DEX, 15+1 CON, 8 INT, 13 WIS, 8 CHA
ASI’s: Polearm Master @1, +2 STR @4, Heavy Armor Master @6, Sentinel @8, Great Weapon Master @12, +2 CON @14, Alert @16, Lucky @19
Fighting Style: Defense or Dueling

The combo of sentinel, polearm master, and great weapon master is well known for its ridiculous power. Is taking advantage of this combo and critfishing with superior critical not just a viable strategy, but the most viable strategy for a level 20 fighter?

Are there any other extremely powerful fighter builds that don't involve multiclassing?

I know this thread is about optimizing for combat as combat is a major part of most D&D games but having a fighter with high intelligence or charisma can make even the Champion interesting. Oddly enough the fighter is the best class for improving your "dump stats" as they gain enough ASIs to deal damage AND be interesting at the same time.

[Man_Over_Game]

I know this thread is about optimizing for combat as combat is a major part of most D&D games but having a fighter with high intelligence or charisma can make even the Champion interesting. Oddly enough the fighter is the best class for improving your "dump stats" as they gain enough ASIs to deal damage AND be interesting at the same time.

Eh? Kinda? No utility feat is going to give you more things to play with than something like Disguise Self (level 1 spell) or Invisibility (level 2 spell).

Sure, you got more ASIs to burn, but that's not paying attention to what everyone else got instead. On top of the fact that basic Fighter combat is dull as hell with very little to modify or think about, and the combat feats you get don't really change it all that much. The main form that feats add to a fighter's complexity mostly comes around changing the odds of their dice, as opposed to something like Fly that changes the way you can think.

The fighter has some things going for it, but it is probably the opposite of versatile. Rather, it's as versatile as the word "Generic". Sure, you can rely on good RPing to leverage your high intelligence or charisma, but giving that same player more tools to work with (like spells or skills) takes them away from such a rigid and limited system to give them unlimited possibilities.

Or, put simply, why would a cunning player enjoy playing a cunning fighter more than a cunning wizard? Because the system certainly doesn't treat them like equals (despite many of us wishing it did).

[eunwoler]

A long time ago, I was working on a series of threads (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616164-Let-s-Fix-The-Arcane-Archer) where we, as a community, worked together to fix some of the bigger issues with several of the subclasses.

Part of this required a thorough analysis of where each subclass sits in terms of power level.

For Fighter, the estimated daily gains you get for the 4 most straightforward (and easily quantifiable) subclasses are:
Champion (+4.2), Samurai (+35), Arcane Archer (+69), Battlemaster (+54-96).
(These numbers are assuming each level 5 Fighter is using GWM/SS while having 3 fights per day, each lasting 3 rounds, with a Short Rest in between each fight.)

Unfortunately, the 5% increased weapon damage on the Champion (and later 10%) will almost always fall short compared to getting Advantage on an attack. Not only does having Advantage have the bonus of increasing your overall accuracy, but it nearly doubles your crit chance. Your chances of rolling a 20 goes from 5% to 9.75%, vs. the Champion's 5% to 10%.

Since the other Fighters get bonuses from short or long rests, the Champion can only ever catch up if there is a really niche situation of having lots of combat rounds without any kind of rest (like 50 rounds' worth, since we're talking about +~0.65 damage per turn). Which is less than ideal when your entire class identity is "Do this one thing, then do it again next round". 50 rounds without rest? Yeah, not thinking so.



TLDR: CHAMPION SUCKS

Yeah Champion is complete garbage. I am always irked a little when people handwave and deflect the Champion issue by saying 'it's not meant to be strong, it's meant to be generic and simple' as if generic and balanced cannot exist






Don't pick Champion. Go the creative route and pick Variant Human Battlemaster Fighter with backstory of grizzled veteran soldier

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah Champion is complete garbage. Back before Crawford Backpedaled on Shield Master and when the shove can come (you can choose when a bonus action happens yadda yadda) before, Champion could sometimes get themselves advantage on attack when using that element of the feat. (You are not always guaranteed to knock any opponent prone). My DM decided, when he reat that backpedal tweet, to change how shield master workds.
OK, I found ways to use it to help our Bear Barbarian, but what I had been able to do was no longer viable.

My half orc champion had dueling fightins style, sword and board, Shield Master, and (second) Defensive Fighting Style since our group had a need for a tough to hit front liner.

That Champion did a lot of knocking things down and damaging them.

I suppose I could have done that with a Battlemeaster and had more options to do other stuff, but I had a lot of fun with that character.

[Man_Over_Game]

Back before Crawford Backpedaled on Shield Master and when the shove can come (you can choose when a bonus action happens yadda yadda) before, Champion could sometimes get themselves advantage on attack when using that element of the feat. (You are not always guaranteed to knock any opponent prone). My DM decided, when he reat that backpedal tweet, to change how shield master workds.
OK, I found ways to use it to help our Bear Barbarian, but what I had been able to do was no longer viable.

My half orc champion had dueling fightins style, sword and board, Shield Master, and (second) Defensive Fighting Style since our group had a need for a tough to hit front liner.

That Champion did a lot of knocking things down and damaging them.

I suppose I could have done that with a Battlemeaster and had more options to do other stuff, but I had a lot of fun with that character.


My biggest complaint is that it doesn't really do anything. In a sense, it's almost like a trap option, as it seems to be good for beginners, due to its simplicity, but it's almost assumed to be better because of that simplicity. Like being straightforward and rigid is your specialization.

But he doesn't really do that much more than a Fighter without a subclass, and that's only known through expertise of the system. Even if it was a "handicap option" that was intended to be a bit more challenging, that seems counterintuitive to most players' expectations of the subclass.

It's kinda like how the old bladesinger wasn't a great melee combatant, despite all of your features trying to convince you otherwise.

It's not the end of the world or anything, but it's always frustrating when a player's expectations of the game doesn't match the game's, although I think this is more of the game not matching the developer's expectations. As in, just poor observations on balance and power curve.

They were probably so used to crits being game-changing effects across versions of DnD that they forgot how much they were nerfed. Had they used the old crit rules, the Champion would get almost twice the value as it does now (with just over +1 damage per action at level 5). Still not great, but there were also a ton more feats and powers related to crits before as well (and, from my understanding, things like subclasses and feats were worked on by separate teams that didn't communicate well).

But that's mostly a lot of speculation. Takeaway is, Champion sucks if numbers are your goal, but numbers aren't everything in DnD. You don't need things to be fair to have fun. Hell, a game doesn't even need to be good for you to enjoy it.

[ZRN]

Eh? Kinda? No utility feat is going to give you more things to play with than something like Disguise Self (level 1 spell) or Invisibility (level 2 spell).

I mean, there's literally a feat that gives you both of these spells once per day. And another feat that gives you unlimited Disguise Self.


Or, put simply, why would a cunning player enjoy playing a cunning fighter more than a cunning wizard?

Setting aside the obvious - "cunning fighter" is a popular archetype in fiction and a lot of people enjoy it - I think the answer partly has to do with types of players. Some players just don't have a particularly legalistic mindset, or prefer not to play that way, and so they like more abstract and open-ended approaches to challenges in game (e.g. skills), rather than nitpicky exception-based rules (e.g. spells). This extends to combat as well: you'll notice that fighters get abilities that let them do a higher quantity of things in combat (extra attacks, action surge), even if they can't do new types of things. A fighter or rogue can use that flexibility to do a wider variety of creative, nonmagical things in a single round.

Another issue: most of the "clever" stuff you can do with a magic-user has to be set up in advance. You need to know which spells to prepare and plan out the clever way you'll use them. Martial characters in 5e are typically more seat-of-your-pants, which can call for more on-the-spot thinking.

[Man_Over_Game]

I mean, there's literally a feat that gives you both of these spells once per day. And another feat that gives you unlimited Disguise Self.



Setting aside the obvious - "cunning fighter" is a popular archetype in fiction and a lot of people enjoy it - I think the answer partly has to do with types of players. Some players just don't have a particularly legalistic mindset, or prefer not to play that way, and so they like more abstract and open-ended approaches to challenges in game (e.g. skills), rather than nitpicky exception-based rules (e.g. spells). This extends to combat as well: you'll notice that fighters get abilities that let them do a higher quantity of things in combat (extra attacks, action surge), even if they can't do new types of things. A fighter or rogue can use that flexibility to do a wider variety of creative, nonmagical things in a single round.

Another issue: most of the "clever" stuff you can do with a magic-user has to be set up in advance. You need to know which spells to prepare and plan out the clever way you'll use them. Martial characters in 5e are typically more seat-of-your-pants, which can call for more on-the-spot thinking.

I'll be straight, I'm not familiar with the most recent additions, so I wasn't aware that there were new feats that did that.

And while I do agree that it's kind of expected for rogues and fighters to be more adaptive, there isn't really any support for it. The rules aren't really more lenient on attacks or actions compared to spells. There are rules regarding what they can do by default, but there aren't really rules that cover what happens outside of those defaults.

Like, just start as a level 1 Rogue and put another 5 into Wizard. What exactly would a level 6 rogue do better with their skills? We expect rogues to do better, so we assume they do, but what evidence supports that belief? How often do you need to utilize the Bonus Action Stealth (with a decent chance of failure) until it outperforms invisibility?

Realized I was going off course for the thread, putting my off-topic responses in spoilers.

[Unoriginal]

How often do you need to utilize the Bonus Action Stealth (with a decent chance of failure) until it outperforms invisibility?

Bonus action Stealth by itself always vastly outperform Invisibility by itself.

There is no any more "decent chance of failure" for BA Stealth than there is for Invisibility, which a) still requires you to make a Dex (Stealth) check with exactly the same DC as the BA Stealth (if with advantage, true) if you want to hide b) requires you to use a full Action to do said Dex (Stealth) check. And Invisibility requires you to use your Action to cast it, too.

So in other words, a Wizard using Invisibility will need TWO full turns to hide. Two turns during which they can't attack or use spells.

A Rogue using their BA Stealth option can hide twice and attack/cast spells twice, in that same time.

And that's assuming the Wizard and the Rogue have the same modifier to Dex (Stealth) checks, which is unlikely to be the case (but still possible).

The only place where Invisibility has an edge is that it let you attempt to hide anywhere. Which is far from as big an edge as many people try to make it be.



That attempt at invoking caster supremacy is demonstrably not supported by the game.

[KorvinStarmast]

My biggest complaint is that it doesn't really do anything. In a sense, it's almost like a trap option, as it seems to be good for beginners, due to its simplicity, but it's almost assumed to be better because of that simplicity. Daniel, was I having badwrongfun to play my Half Orc Champion without multiclassing to the cusp of level 15 before the campaign went dormant?

While I enjoy optimization discussions, and I do use some of the ideas I garner from such discussions (see my choice for Counterspell for my Lore bard at level 6, I'd not have done that had I not listened to the Playgrounders) I find an over-focus on optimization to detract from the overall gaming experience.

[Man_Over_Game]

Daniel, was I having badwrongfun to play my Half Orc Champion without multiclassing to the cusp of level 15 before the campaign went dormant?

While I enjoy optimization discussions, and I do use some of the ideas I garner from such discussions (see my choice for Counterspell for my Lore bard at level 6, I'd not have done that had I not listened to the Playgrounders) I find an over-focus on optimization to detract from the overall gaming experience.

I absolutely agree that the game should be whatever it is you want it to be. But what you want and how things are aren't always the same.

When people play a Monk, they might expect that they would be an effective negotiator and diplomat (which is kinda implied by the Open Hand Monk features), or that an Assassin would be particularly good at sneaking around midcombat and killing off folks that thought they were safe (which doesn't work well because of intricate stealth/initiative rules).

There aren't many wrong ways for players to play and have fun (so long as it doesn't detract from someone else's), I'm just saying that often times the game is misleading. Savage Attacker has the same cost as Great Weapon Master or Polearm Master, so why is it not equal? It's that belief that they are equal, because that's what makes sense, that's the problem I'm referring to.

Going to play a game that doesn't match your expectations rarely ends well, kinda like joining a table and finding out at the last second that it's grimdark/PVP/smut oriented. Can be fun, but only for the folks that were expecting it.

[LumenPlacidum]

To make Champion even acceptable in terms of damage, you need abilities that render you able to get advantage and abilities that add bonus dice when you get a critical hit.

Neither of which Champion gives you.

So, you'll probably have to turn to race and feat selection for these things. Half-Orc for Savage Critical is mutually exclusive with some variety of Elf for Elven Accuracy. Mounted Combat is an easy way to gain advantage on most of your attacks, so let's go with that. When enemies size up, see if your DM will let you ride on an elephant :P

Elven Accuracy gains us a huge critical chance, but loses us the ability to have the highest damage dice due to requiring a non-strength-based attack roll. I'm not sure whether the trade-off is better or worse, so I'll proceed with both this and a strength-based Half-Orc build.

If you go Dex-based, then the feats that let you be better are:

Elven Accuracy
Piercer
Sharpshooter (might as well go ranged)
Fey-Touched (Hunter's Mark)
Lucky
Crossbow Expert

You will probably have to use attacking from extreme distance in order to gain advantage on your attacks.

However, at level 20, you'll end up with a +8 to-hit with advantage for 1d10 (heavy crossbow) + 1d6 (Hunter's Mark) + 5 (Dex) + 10 (Sharpshooter), with critical hits doing 3d10 + 2d6 + 15, which will happen on 38.59% of attacks (or 47.80% of attacks if you use the Lucky feat on top of Elven Accuracy). You can reroll one damage die once per turn, which will probably net you a few extra points of damage. Against an AC 18 target, without dumping all of your Luck, you expect to do 109.6 points of damage, accounting for critical hits and to-hit chance. This is eminently acceptable. If you dump all of your luck, 119.8 points of damage. Technically, a little higher because of the single die reroll. Much lower if you cannot secure the requisite advantage on attacks, which is much less reliable for you than for many other subclasses. Oh, you could also throw on a superiority d6 from your second Fighting Style to get an extra ~7 points of damage. Once.

If you use Action Surge then you can do a silly amount of damage. We aren't using our Bonus Action for anything, so we can really just add those two numbers together for 229.4 damage.

If you go Strength-based, then Elven Accuracy doesn't help you. Instead, you want a d12 weapon (greataxe) with Half-Orc. The nice feats are:

Slasher
Great Weapon Master
Mounted Combatant
Orcish Fury
Lucky
Fey-Touched (Hunter's Mark)


With a +6 to-hit due to GWM, you're doing 1d12 (greataxe) + 1d6 (Hunter's Mark) + 5 (Str) + 10 (GWM) damage. Your crits come 27.75% of the time (though this can be boosted to 38.6% of the time with a lucky point), and they do 3d12 + 2d6 + 15. Additionally, critical hits give you an extra attack and the enemy has disadvantage on all attack rolls. You can throw a +1d12 from Orcish Fury onto a damage roll, which gets doubled to +2d12 since you should only do this for crits. This comes to... 113.5 points of expected damage, or about 140 if you dump your luck into the turn. Action surge adds these together for about 250 damage.

Champion might be boring, but it's not ineffective.

[Jon talks a lot]

Thank you all for the advice. I begin to see where my understanding of how fighters are played was heavily lacking. I truly appreciate all the feedback. Many things to consider.

Edit 1: I guess I just never took the time to think about what makes a fighter good, and my ignorance is pretty apparent in this post.

[Eldariel]

To make Champion even acceptable in terms of damage, you need abilities that render you able to get advantage and abilities that add bonus dice when you get a critical hit.

Neither of which Champion gives you.

So, you'll probably have to turn to race and feat selection for these things. Half-Orc for Savage Critical is mutually exclusive with some variety of Elf for Elven Accuracy. Mounted Combat is an easy way to gain advantage on most of your attacks, so let's go with that. When enemies size up, see if your DM will let you ride on an elephant :P

Elven Accuracy gains us a huge critical chance, but loses us the ability to have the highest damage dice due to requiring a non-strength-based attack roll. I'm not sure whether the trade-off is better or worse, so I'll proceed with both this and a strength-based Half-Orc build.

If you go Dex-based, then the feats that let you be better are:

Elven Accuracy
Piercer
Sharpshooter (might as well go ranged)
Fey-Touched (Hunter's Mark)
Lucky
Crossbow Expert

You will probably have to use attacking from extreme distance in order to gain advantage on your attacks.

However, at level 20, you'll end up with a +8 to-hit with advantage for 1d10 (heavy crossbow) + 1d6 (Hunter's Mark) + 5 (Dex) + 10 (Sharpshooter), with critical hits doing 3d10 + 2d6 + 15, which will happen on 38.59% of attacks (or 47.80% of attacks if you use the Lucky feat on top of Elven Accuracy). You can reroll one damage die once per turn, which will probably net you a few extra points of damage. Against an AC 18 target, without dumping all of your Luck, you expect to do 109.6 points of damage, accounting for critical hits and to-hit chance. This is eminently acceptable. If you dump all of your luck, 119.8 points of damage. Technically, a little higher because of the single die reroll. Much lower if you cannot secure the requisite advantage on attacks, which is much less reliable for you than for many other subclasses. Oh, you could also throw on a superiority d6 from your second Fighting Style to get an extra ~7 points of damage. Once.

If you use Action Surge then you can do a silly amount of damage. We aren't using our Bonus Action for anything, so we can really just add those two numbers together for 229.4 damage.

If you go Strength-based, then Elven Accuracy doesn't help you. Instead, you want a d12 weapon (greataxe) with Half-Orc. The nice feats are:

Slasher
Great Weapon Master
Mounted Combatant
Orcish Fury
Lucky
Fey-Touched (Hunter's Mark)


With a +6 to-hit due to GWM, you're doing 1d12 (greataxe) + 1d6 (Hunter's Mark) + 5 (Str) + 10 (GWM) damage. Your crits come 27.75% of the time (though this can be boosted to 38.6% of the time with a lucky point), and they do 3d12 + 2d6 + 15. Additionally, critical hits give you an extra attack and the enemy has disadvantage on all attack rolls. You can throw a +1d12 from Orcish Fury onto a damage roll, which gets doubled to +2d12 since you should only do this for crits. This comes to... 113.5 points of expected damage, or about 140 if you dump your luck into the turn. Action surge adds these together for about 250 damage.

Champion might be boring, but it's not ineffective.

You 110% need to replace Hunter's Mark with Hex in both. No matter how good Misty Step is, you can't use Hunter's Mark on more than one target per day, completely negating the whole point. Meanwhile, Hex can be swapped to a new target with bonus action, so it's for all targets within an hour and thus far more relevant to your overall daily output (unless you literally only fight Tiamat or something). Yes, worse range and such but that's life.

That said, even the best Champion loses out to the other subclasses optimised to the same point for almost all adventuring days, and offers little else so while Champion isn't unplayable, it's certainly not a noteworthy subclass either.

[Willie the Duck]

You 110% need to replace Hunter's Mark with Hex in both. No matter how good Misty Step is, you can't use Hunter's Mark on more than one target per day, completely negating the whole point. Meanwhile, Hex can be swapped to a new target with bonus action, so it's for all targets within an hour and thus far more relevant to your overall daily output (unless you literally only fight Tiamat or something). Yes, worse range and such but that's life.

Looking at the language for Hunter's Mark, I am wondering what you mean. Is there some 'technically...' argument in the wording that makes its transfer mechanism automatically fail somehow?

[Man_Over_Game]

Thank you all for the advice. I begin to see where my understanding of how fighters are played was heavily lacking. I truly appreciate all the feedback. Many things to consider.

Edit 1: I guess I just never took the time to think about what makes a fighter good, and my ignorance is pretty apparent in this post.

I've found that the key to anyone having fun with what they're playing is making sure the complexity of the character matches what the player is looking for.

Fighters are probably one of the most straightforward and simplest classes possible. You're going to pretty much be doing the same things at level 20 as you would at level 1, and everyone can leverage the core mechanics you specialize into. They are relaxing to play because of their low maintenance.

Me, personally, I got insanely bored with the Barbarian, which is like the step above the Fighter in terms of complexity. For me to feel engaged, I gotta play something that's at least as complex as a Paladin or Bard.

You can make a melee Bard or a ranged Paladin and everything will probably work out fine, but first I'd consider exactly how much work you want to put into playing your character to figure out what class suits you best, then pick a subclass/feat/skills to flesh out your other priorities.

[Eldariel]

Looking at the language for Hunter's Mark, I am wondering what you mean. Is there some 'technically...' argument in the wording that makes its transfer mechanism automatically fail somehow?

Nevermind me, that was a stupid oversight on my part.

[Willie the Duck]

Nevermind me, that was a stupid oversight on my part.

No worries. Regardless, you are right in the advice, if not the reason. Hex is usually a better choice than Hunter's Mark, as the side benefit has a higher chance of being meaningful -- a penalty on an ability check is more likely to come into play than a higher chance of tracking something you got within 90' of and are trying to kill.

[Thunderous Mojo]

That said, even the best Champion loses out to the other subclasses optimised to the same point for almost all adventuring days, and offers little else so while Champion isn't unplayable, it's certainly not a noteworthy subclass either.
The Champion subclass portrays a scrappy, 'generalist' fighter, someone like the character John McClain from the film Die Hard.

I have my own, home ruled version of Remarkable Talent, but even as is the power is useful. The ability to add 1/2 of your proficiency bonus to any physical check, is broadly applicable.

Need to pick a lock? Here is a bonus to that.
Need to get a jukebox that ate your gold piece and played nothing, to actually play your song, by slapping the machine? Here is a bonus for that. 😎 (The character 'Fonze' from the T.V. Show Happy Days used to be noteworthy🃏).
Need to console an NPC by wordlessly, gently, but firmly, laying a hand on their shoulder to show support?(a Persuasion (STR) check)DM willing, here is a bonus to that.

This is in addition to the bonus to Initiative, which on it's own boosts the PC's ability to control the tempo of battle. It is not flashy, but the subclass "get's the job done", which is actually the niche it is meant to fill.
I allow the Remarkable Athlete to apply to all Str, Dex, Con ability checks. Even ability checks where a proficiency bonus already applies. This gives a 'lesser Expertise' like effect.


Hex is usually a better choice than Hunter's Mark, as the side benefit has a higher chance of being meaningful -- a penalty on an ability check is more likely to come into play than a higher chance of tracking something you got within 90' of and are trying to kill.
Hex has V,S,M spell requirements, while Hunter's Mark has only Verbal requirements. A 'sword and board' warrior might prefer to use Hunter's Mark due to this.

One can also cast Hunter's Mark on a fellow PC, before splitting up, as a tracking aid.

.For me to feel engaged, I gotta play something that's at least as complex as a Paladin or Bard.
I find Action Surge management to be engaging all on it's own.

My 10th level Psi Warrior Fighter requires attention, to play. Through subclass and the Telekinetic feat, the character has multiple uses for their bonus action, including an at will '5' adjust' for allies.

My Reaction, through subclass and the Interception Fighting Style, prevents damage. Either ability,(wether Protective Field or Interception), outpace Cutting Words in terms of straight damage reduction.

I don't typically play fighters, and have found the experience, really quite fun.

[KorvinStarmast]

I allow the Remarkable Athlete to apply to all Str, Dex, Con ability checks. Even ability checks where a proficiency bonus already applies. This gives a 'lesser Expertise' like effect. This, IMO, is how that feature should have been written.