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View Full Version : Wizard vs. Barbarian (yes, I detect cries of "BATMAN!!!!!" already)



Shas aia Toriia
2007-11-09, 10:30 PM
Actually not, but I need help making a build for a fight between a wizard and a barbarian.
Yes, I know the wizard is broken, but not looking at this as another "how broken is the wizard" exercise, I would like help creating both a wizard build (for me) and the best barbarian build we can make to combat said wizard.

Stats:
Wizard
Race: High elf
Classes: Elf paragon 3, Wizard (minimum 10 levels), up to one other PrC

Barbarian
Race: Either half-orc or orc, I don't know which one
Classes: 3 racial paragon levels, barbarian (minimum 10 levels), up to one other PrC

Level is 20

The two combatants are in a 200 foot diamater room, 50 feet tall. It may not be left in any way, shape or form (thus eliminating rope trick).

Please help in making both builds.
Again, this is not a thread to see how broken wizards are. Standard wealth per level, and no, the wizard does not know the fight will happen before it actually does.

Again, this is not an optimization thread. This is wizard vs. barbarian so that the chances are more less equal. This does not include "give the wizard 3 intelligence". Thank you.

MCerberus
2007-11-09, 10:40 PM
The title of this thread makes catgirls cry and then explode. Change it please.

osyluth
2007-11-09, 10:51 PM
E=mc2. Causes lead to effects. Bwahahahahaha! Die, catgirls, die!

TheOOB
2007-11-09, 11:03 PM
Build? I believe dominate person ends the fight outright, so would flesh to stone, but barbarians have good fort saves traditionally. Transmute mud to rock could beat the barbarian, as could flying and throwing disetigrates and scorching rays and what nots.

Quietus
2007-11-09, 11:04 PM
Seven free levels to play with for the Wizard?

I smell sevenfold cheddar.

13_CBS
2007-11-09, 11:14 PM
Wouldn't Fly put a serious crimp in the Barbarian's plans?

JaxGaret
2007-11-09, 11:18 PM
If you didn't have to take the 3 racial paragon levels, I would have suggested taking the Divine Crusader as the last ten levels, so that the Barbarian would have some kind of chance with a 9th level spell to throw out.

But no, Wizard wins.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-11-10, 12:07 AM
Yes, I am perfectly aware that the wizard will always win. The point of this is, modify the wizard and barbarian in order to make it so that the barb at least has a chance.

Jack Zander
2007-11-10, 12:24 AM
Maybe the wizard recently lost his spellbook. That would make it rather even methinks.

VerdugoExplode
2007-11-10, 12:39 AM
Yes, I am perfectly aware that the wizard will always win. The point of this is, modify the wizard and barbarian in order to make it so that the barb at least has a chance.

The easiest way to do this is to make the wizard a blind, dyslexic(don't ask how) quadriplegic with only 10 intelligence. Then the barbarian has at least a 50/50 shot.

JaxGaret
2007-11-10, 01:07 AM
You could give the Barbarian a custom item of Infinite SR, +Infinity to all saves, and Infinite Spell Turning.

That would be a tough nut to crack for the Batman.

But the Barb still goes down.

Dausuul
2007-11-10, 01:35 AM
Right. Addressing the actual question at hand...

If you want to set things up so the barbarian stands a decent chance, it's not really that hard. Wizards are only super-cheesy if you build them right, so build this one just slightly wrong. Limit the number of tricks the wizard has up his sleeve, pimp the barbarian's saves, and make sure the combat takes place in an enclosed space. The barbarian should have a Binding weapon handy to stop the wizard teleporting out, and the wizard should not get celerity, forcecage, et cetera.

For the PRC, give the wizard something interesting but not super-powered (i.e., no Initiate of the Sevenfold Cheese, no Incantatrix). Loremaster is a good pick.

Instead of PRC-ing, I suggest having the barbarian multi-class into warblade. Aside from the general benefits of ToB stuff, this will allow him to pick up Mind Over Body, Action Without Thought, and especially Moment of Perfect Mind. Iron Heart Focus is also a good one, and you can just reach it if you put all seven levels into warblade. (Iron Heart Surge is overrated, since it requires a standard action to use.) Max out the barb's Concentration skill.

Lion Totem Barbarian will let you make a full attack at the end of a charge. Very good stuff.

Note that whichever way it goes, this is likely to be a very short combat. Either the barbarian smites the wizard horribly, or the wizard turns the barbarian into a goldfish, and neither will take more than a couple of rounds, tops. D&D isn't really built for player-versus-player combat.

By the way, what's the context? Your requirements are pretty specific, so I assume you have some particular purpose in mind... it would be easier to advise you if we knew what that purpose was.

Jack Zander
2007-11-10, 01:54 AM
The lower the levels, the better chance the barbarian has. Unfortunately, at level 1 there is a 50/50 chance for either side and it only gets worse for the barbarian from there, no matter how crappy the wizard is built.

Well... I'm sure the wizard could be a "special" diviner who only ever prepares divinations... Then the barbarian would win.

Ganurath
2007-11-10, 03:21 AM
Shas... give them ALL the details, such as setting, the no retreat clause, and the availability of supplements to both sides. You can't leave them in the dark about the details binding the wizard to ground (ceiling) and chamber (retreat=defeat) or they focus on hit and run concepts, for example.

JaxGaret
2007-11-10, 03:53 AM
Shas... give them ALL the details, such as setting, the no retreat clause, and the availability of supplements to both sides. You can't leave them in the dark about the details binding the wizard to ground (ceiling) and chamber (retreat=defeat) or they focus on hit and run concepts, for example.

Umm, yeah... these are important details for the business at hand.

Just to clarify: Are you trying to build the best Barbarian possible to take out a Wizard, and then building a Wizard who is just powerful enough to match said Barbarian? Because that seems to be what Dausuul thinks.

I thought from the OP that you were optimizing both the Barbarian and the Wizard.

Dode
2007-11-10, 04:46 AM
<Spell that requires a will save>

Closet_Skeleton
2007-11-10, 05:21 AM
This is easy.

Wizard doesn't buff before the battle and casts fireball, Barbarian charges using leap attack and shocktrooper, splitting the wizard in half.

Man, this is so easy when one combatant is given the stupid hat.

daggaz
2007-11-10, 07:11 AM
for builds that do this?

Barbarian takes improved initiative, pimps his dex higher than he needs it.

Wizard does not take this feat, has a puny dex.

Barring bad luck, barbarian wins initiative. Charge in, either grapple or do a nasty shocktrooper/leapattack death hit. If grapple, make sure wizard does not have still spell, or any freedom of movement/dim doors.

Result? Wizard dies. Quickly.

Give the barbarian a fly potion just in case..

Shas aia Toriia
2007-11-10, 08:45 AM
By the way, what's the context? Your requirements are pretty specific, so I assume you have some particular purpose in mind... it would be easier to advise you if we knew what that purpose was.


Just a battle to see whether the elf or the orc would be superior in one on one fight, minimum 10 levels in the prefferred class, 3 racial paragon levels (this is elf vs. orc afterall), and only 1 PrC available, lest the wizard do the sevenfold veil/incantrix thing. :smallyuk:

Starbuck_II
2007-11-10, 09:09 AM
For the PRC, give the wizard something interesting but not super-powered (i.e., no Initiate of the Sevenfold Cheese, no Incantatrix). Loremaster is a good pick.


Rigtht because Dodge bonuses to AC are so easy to find. 1 level in Loremaster (after gaining a headband +4) gives you that.

After that. Wizard buffs and is hard to hit.
Wizard can haste himself for a total of +2 dodge.
Tren or Troglyte for +6/+8 base NA.
+1 insight Ioun
+6 G. Mage armor
+3 Mithral buckler
+5 Dex
+3 Ring
Amulet +3 NA

So far: 31 +6/8= 37 or 39 AC.
Good AC at level 14 (the limit of this exercise): AC 36.

Ganurath
2007-11-10, 10:27 AM
Base 20 Attack Bonus for Barbarian+Orc Paragon+Combat PrC, +5 weapon enhancement, +2 racial Str, +3 enhancement Str, +2 magebane weapon, +2 elfbane weapon is attack bonus +34, assuming the representative of Orc ITP decides to get a weapon made to kill the representative of Elf ITP. Oh, and that's assuming the base Str is 10 and that this barbarian doesn't invest any level-up bonuses in Str.

Starbuck_II
2007-11-10, 10:31 AM
Base 20 Attack Bonus for Barbarian+Orc Paragon+Combat PrC, +5 weapon enhancement, +2 racial Str, +3 enhancement Str, +2 magebane weapon, +2 elfbane weapon is attack bonus +34, assuming the representative of Orc ITP decides to get a weapon made to kill the representative of Elf ITP. Oh, and that's assuming the base Str is 10 and that this barbarian doesn't invest any level-up bonuses in Str.

Level 14 has 20 Base attack? Whaaa?!

Level 14 has only 14 BAB possible.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-11-10, 11:08 AM
I'm pretty sure I stated that this was a 20th level exercise, didn't I?

Also, I is elf itp! Woot!

Shas aia Toriia
2007-11-10, 11:14 AM
Base 20 Attack Bonus for Barbarian+Orc Paragon+Combat PrC, +5 weapon enhancement, +2 racial Str, +3 enhancement Str, +2 magebane weapon, +2 elfbane weapon is attack bonus +34, assuming the representative of Orc ITP decides to get a weapon made to kill the representative of Elf ITP. Oh, and that's assuming the base Str is 10 and that this barbarian doesn't invest any level-up bonuses in Str.

My AC would be. . .

10+13(armor bonus)+13(shield bonus)+8(dexterity)+5(natural armor)+5(deflection) for a nice AC of 54, which is before I start adding stupid bonuses like profane and sacred.:smallsmile:

wowy319
2007-11-10, 11:16 AM
Wizard's spells needed to win:

Extended Fly
Transmute Rock to Lava
Heightened calm emotions
Quickened Feeblemind
Heightened Phantasmal Killer

Repeat as necessary

Barbarian would need a lot (rather, all) of the mage-slayer feats, cloak of resistance and wings of flying to have a chance, but even then, he's got an uphill battle.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-11-10, 11:26 AM
Wizard's spells needed to win:

Extended Fly
Transmute Rock to Lava
Heightened calm emotions
Quickened Feeblemind
Heightened Phantasmal Killer

Repeat as necessary

Barbarian would need a lot (rather, all) of the mage-slayer feats, cloak of resistance and wings of flying to have a chance, but even then, he's got an uphill battle.

Yes, we are aware that this is quite possible with the wizards spells, but we're trying to engineer this so that it is a little more even.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-10, 11:34 AM
The Barb HAS to have as many PrC levels as possible, then take one or two levels of a martial adept class for getting maneuvers. The reason? Because of how ToB was written and it never being errataed, ANY PrC class adds fully to your martial adept level, so a 10 level PrC class gets you +10 to maneuvers known. I'd make the Barb take whatever he wants, and in the last levels take Swordy for Balance in the Sky stance, Feral deathblow, and some other cheese.

Overlard
2007-11-10, 12:07 PM
Yes, we are aware that this is quite possible with the wizards spells, but we're trying to engineer this so that it is a little more even.
As has been said, the only way for this to be more even is for the barbarian to be extremely optimised, and played intelligently, while the wizard is both created and played stupidly. So you're asking people to provide intentionally poor wizard builds to give the barbarian a chance. Poor builds are easy - no save & dies, no save or sucks, no rays of enfeeblement or enervation, no waves of fatigue, no polymorphing, no flying or teleporting, no windwall or protection from arrows, no forcecage, no walls of spells, no hold monster, no gates, no power words, no reverse gravity or mordenkainens disjunction. Make him an dedicated evoker, with all spells allowing a reflex save for half damage. That should make things even.

Ganurath
2007-11-10, 12:32 PM
Questions: How are base abilities going to be determined, Shas? Point buy?

How far apart are Elfitepi and Orcitipi starting from one another in this room of tactically signifigant finite dimensions?

Is it going to be straight whoever wins initiate, or is there going to be a variation of the preparative rules of your spell duels that would allow for preparations, like the elf casting a buff spell, or the orc drinking a potion?

Just as confirmation: You said standard gold, so I'm assuming that that's to be read as 760,000, since that's what it says in the DMG for 20th level?

Morrandir
2007-11-10, 12:46 PM
Doing a bit of reading, if the Barb takes at least 4 levels in the Eye of Gruumsh class from Complete Warrior, he can use the Blinding Spittle attack to completely shut down the wizard until said Wiz cleans out his eyes.

Now, someone out there might be saying, "Well, the Wiz just casts Prestidigitation to clean it!" Unfortunately, by RAW, any spell with a "target" must be in sight, and, well, being blind, the wizard can't even see himself to cast the spell.

The only thing the Barb has to do is get within 20 feet and start spittin'. Granted, that alone is hard enough, but with Wizards having not-so-awesome touch ACs and even worse Reflex saves, this would give our orcish friend a fighting chance.

Taking more levels in EoG only adds to the fun, as the level 5 ability knocks off things like Invisibility from the list of Fun Things Wizards Can Do.

Starbuck_II
2007-11-10, 12:54 PM
I'm pretty sure I stated that this was a 20th level exercise, didn't I?

Also, I is elf itp! Woot!

It was written confusing than.Sounded like Elf paragon 3, Wizard (minimum 10 levels), up to one [level, my interpretation] other PrC.

But hey, if we get more: even better:

Wizard buffs and is hard to hit.
Wizard can haste himself for a total of +2 dodge (Loremaster levels).
Tren or Troglyte for +6/+8 base NA.
+1 insight Ioun
+6 G. Mage armor
+5 Mithral buckler
+8 Dex
+5 Ring
Amulet +5 NA

So far: 40 +6/8= 46 or 48.
Good AC at level 20 (the limit of this exercise): AC 45.

Throw in miss chance:
Casts Displacement or Invisibility (greater or Superior).

And Forcecage is always an option.

Nevermore
2007-11-10, 01:27 PM
Give the Barbarian 1 lvl of Rogue, pour every rank into Use Magic Item and give him a wand of Dispel Magic. That certainly makes things more even.

Ganurath
2007-11-10, 01:31 PM
Give the Barbarian 1 lvl of Rogue, pour every rank into Use Magic Item and give him a wand of Dispel Magic. That certainly makes things more even.You know, that would actually make qualifying for the PrC I have in mind much easier...

*goes to tweak*

Shas aia Toriia
2007-11-10, 02:15 PM
Stupid dispel magic. . .

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-10, 02:23 PM
Don't have the wizard use quickened buffs, and have him focus on dropping stuff like meteor swarm, fireball, etc.

Give the barbarian a ring of evasion and boots (or wings or whatever) of flying.

Should be more evenly matched.

Aquillion
2007-11-10, 02:28 PM
Make the wizard a blaster. If you can, it would be even better to replace him with a Warmage; but if you can't, you can just play him as a warmage instead. That'll give you lots of flashy, explosive effects that will dent the Barbarian's d12s not at all, and won't keep him from full attacking you into the ground.

...actually, that isn't really even, so give the wizard a few defensive spells, too. Avoid flying and invisibility unless the Barbarian knows they're headed into the fight and can bring items to prepare... but a bit of dimension dooring around and so forth can prolong the fight without giving the wizard a real long-term advantage (as long as they're just pinging the Barbarian's d12's with weak damage, anyway.)

Avoid UMD cheese or giving the Barbarian absurd magic items. There isn't any need to, when you can just make the wizard into a generic blaster; as long as the wizard nearly completely neglects their defense and doesn't use any spells that can eliminate the Barbarian swiftly, the Barbarian should certainly be able to win.

Dausuul
2007-11-10, 08:23 PM
Just a battle to see whether the elf or the orc would be superior in one on one fight, minimum 10 levels in the prefferred class, 3 racial paragon levels (this is elf vs. orc afterall), and only 1 PrC available, lest the wizard do the sevenfold veil/incantrix thing. :smallyuk:

Err... I still don't understand. I mean, you can balance the two against one another by adjusting their builds, but once you've got them balanced, what have you proved? You don't really learn anything about whether the elf race or the orc race is stronger, because you've adjusted the representatives of those races to be exactly equal. And if you just twink them both out as hard as you can, all you end up proving is that wizards are stronger than barbarians.

The proper way to do an "orc versus elf paragon challenge," IMO, would be to build the most bad-ass possible elf paragon and the most bad-ass possible orc paragon--all classes legal, but each must have 3 levels of racial paragon. Then let them have at each other and see who wins.

Of course, when you look at it that way, it quickly becomes clear that the elf has an overwhelming advantage due to getting two wizard casting levels out of the paragon class (and +2 Intelligence to boot!), while the orc has to make do with measly attack and damage bonuses and some extra darkvision. But if you want to know which paragon is superior at 20th--well, there you are.

If you set the challenge at 10th level instead of 20th, it might get a lot more interesting.

(Of course, it may also be that what you're really looking for here is an entertaining gladiatorial match. In which case, more power to you, but I still think you'd be better off picking a lower level. 20th-level PvP combats are over too quickly to make good sport.)

Ganurath
2007-11-11, 03:00 AM
Questions: How are base abilities going to be determined, Shas? Point buy?

How far apart are Elfitepi and Orcitipi starting from one another in this room of tactically signifigant finite dimensions?

Is it going to be straight whoever wins initiate, or is there going to be a variation of the preparative rules of your spell duels that would allow for preparations, like the elf casting a buff spell, or the orc drinking a potion?

Just as confirmation: You said standard gold, so I'm assuming that that's to be read as 760,000, since that's what it says in the DMG for 20th level?These questions were never addressed, and it's neccesary to do so for at least one of them for this hypothetical to occur.

Edit: Another key point to note is that the material for the barbarian is for the plan B on the possibility that I don't know how to play D&D.

JaxGaret
2007-11-11, 04:56 AM
Err... I still don't understand. I mean, you can balance the two against one another by adjusting their builds, but once you've got them balanced, what have you proved? You don't really learn anything about whether the elf race or the orc race is stronger, because you've adjusted the representatives of those races to be exactly equal. And if you just twink them both out as hard as you can, all you end up proving is that wizards are stronger than barbarians.

The proper way to do an "orc versus elf paragon challenge," IMO, would be to build the most bad-ass possible elf paragon and the most bad-ass possible orc paragon--all classes legal, but each must have 3 levels of racial paragon. Then let them have at each other and see who wins.

Of course, when you look at it that way, it quickly becomes clear that the elf has an overwhelming advantage due to getting two wizard casting levels out of the paragon class (and +2 Intelligence to boot!), while the orc has to make do with measly attack and damage bonuses and some extra darkvision. But if you want to know which paragon is superior at 20th--well, there you are.

If you set the challenge at 10th level instead of 20th, it might get a lot more interesting.

(Of course, it may also be that what you're really looking for here is an entertaining gladiatorial match. In which case, more power to you, but I still think you'd be better off picking a lower level. 20th-level PvP combats are over too quickly to make good sport.)

I agree with everything Dausuul said here.

What's really up with this orc v. elf match anyway?

GoC
2007-11-11, 10:30 AM
Hmm...
I know!
1) Give the wizard 3 rounds to buff.
2) Give the wizard 23 Int (15 base+6 item+2 paragon).
3) Give the wizard: Paragon 3/Wizard 10/IotSV 2/Archmage 5
4) Make him an Evocation specialist with Enchantment and Abjuration as barred schools.

The really low Int gives pathetic save DCs and few spells per day while the two IotSV levels gives the wizard a chance to survive melee. The result is a nice long battle with no one-shot-kills.

Is this what you were looking for?

Shas aia Toriia
2007-11-11, 02:14 PM
Hmm...
I know!
1) Give the wizard 3 rounds to buff.
2) Give the wizard 23 Int (15 base+6 item+2 paragon).
3) Give the wizard: Paragon 3/Wizard 10/IotSV 2/Archmage 5
4) Make him an Evocation specialist with Enchantment and Abjuration as barred schools.

The really low Int gives pathetic save DCs and few spells per day while the two IotSV levels gives the wizard a chance to survive melee. The result is a nice long battle with no one-shot-kills.

Is this what you were looking for?

Heh, I guess so. :smallsmile:


Questions: How are base abilities going to be determined, Shas? Point buy?

How far apart are Elfitepi and Orcitipi starting from one another in this room of tactically signifigant finite dimensions?

Is it going to be straight whoever wins initiate, or is there going to be a variation of the preparative rules of your spell duels that would allow for preparations, like the elf casting a buff spell, or the orc drinking a potion?

Just as confirmation: You said standard gold, so I'm assuming that that's to be read as 760,000, since that's what it says in the DMG for 20th level?

Standard point buy for abilities, I'm guessing that they should be about 200 feet apart (opposite sides of the room). Buffs and potions are up to you, but the more prep rounds there are, the better Wiz does. And yes, that is standard gold.

However, the fine folk here bring up some good points - we should drop the level down to 10 or so to even it up a little bit more.
The other option is, of course, I take levels in Arcane Archer to even it up.

GoC
2007-11-11, 03:06 PM
If that doesn't work then Wizard 10+Paragon template is loads of fun.:smallcool:

Shas aia Toriia
2007-11-11, 08:03 PM
If that doesn't work then Wizard 10+Paragon template is loads of fun.:smallcool:

Not when you're a spellcaster. :smallamused:

GoC
2007-11-16, 12:24 PM
Not when you're a spellcaster. :smallamused:

LOL! XD
An unoptimized Paragon wizard has 290hp, about 10 DC 34 will-save-or-suck spells, AC 63, and has two +50 3d6+39 attacks per turn.
He can kill the barbarian IN MELEE!

Ganurath
2007-11-16, 12:27 PM
LOL! XD
An unoptimized Paragon wizard has 290hp, about 10 DC 34 will-save-or-suck spells, AC 63, and has two +50 3d6+39 attacks per turn.
He can kill the barbarian IN MELEE!Yeah... About that... You know how there was that whole idea of two levels of rogue to fill the extra space after the PrC to get Use Magic Device? Well, I was thinking, it'd be easier to not risk it, and since spellthieves can cast abjurations like dispel magic... Did you know a 2nd level spellthief can steal buffs?

Keld Denar
2007-11-16, 12:59 PM
All the barbarian paragon needs to do is take 5 levels of Occult Slayer, and not tell anyone about it. Then when the evil she-wizard goes to cast a big I-WIN spell (such as finger 'o death or hold monster) it gets reflected back at her pointy ears. I'd like to see any wizard who is able to make their OWN fort save or die.

Course, you are still vulnerable to rays, areas, and forcecages, but at least you knocked out all targeted spells for the 1st 2 rounds of combat, plus all mind affecting spells.

GoC
2007-11-16, 01:32 PM
Yeah... About that... You know how there was that whole idea of two levels of rogue to fill the extra space after the PrC to get Use Magic Device? Well, I was thinking, it'd be easier to not risk it, and since spellthieves can cast abjurations like dispel magic... Did you know a 2nd level spellthief can steal buffs?
:smallconfused:
Not entirely sure if you meant to quote me or someone else but anyway...
In those stats he's only using Haste and Shield (and Thunderlance but that's not a buff).