Paragon and Centipedes

[Lukalaly]

So recently I've been looking at the paragon template as a way to make normally very basic enemies into threats that I can still use as a DM even at higher levels.

I do not think paragon works well for this.

While it's funny to imagine a seemingly regular centipede dashing around at the speed of a mid level monk, instantly murdering even trained soldiers with a single bite, I find them to not be very effective at actually properly challenging characters. The example of a centipede is obviously and purposefully a very silly one, what with it being tied for lowest enemy cr while still having an attack, it isn't really a major challenge to a 5th level party, much less an 11th level party. While it certainly might kill a squishier party member if it goes first, the caster can easily kill it once they get to act (provided they don't get targeted round one, of course). That being said, it is incredibly funny to me to imagine my player's reaction when someone runs up to them, begging and pleading them to take vengeance on the centipede that just killed their family in mere seconds.

So I want to ask, what are some other silly "enemies" that you think would be fun to put paragon on? Any enemies that paragon works really well on to make them genuinely a threat to higher level parties that have outpaced them? I haven't looked much at monsters outside of the core books (and what druids like to wildshape into), so I'd love to see some of your thoughts.

[Jazath]

So recently I've been looking at the paragon template as a way to make normally very basic enemies into threats that I can still use as a DM even at higher levels.

I do not think paragon works well for this.

While it's funny to imagine a seemingly regular centipede dashing around at the speed of a mid level monk, instantly murdering even trained soldiers with a single bite, I find them to not be very effective at actually properly challenging characters. The example of a centipede is obviously and purposefully a very silly one, what with it being tied for lowest enemy cr while still having an attack, it isn't really a major challenge to a 5th level party, much less an 11th level party. While it certainly might kill a squishier party member if it goes first, the caster can easily kill it once they get to act (provided they don't get targeted round one, of course). That being said, it is incredibly funny to me to imagine my player's reaction when someone runs up to them, begging and pleading them to take vengeance on the centipede that just killed their family in mere seconds.

So I want to ask, what are some other silly "enemies" that you think would be fun to put paragon on? Any enemies that paragon works really well on to make them genuinely a threat to higher level parties that have outpaced them? I haven't looked much at monsters outside of the core books (and what druids like to wildshape into), so I'd love to see some of your thoughts.

I've encountered Paragon Templates, many of them. Some of the party members i'm running has the paragon template.

I liked to think templates as seasonings, the monster as the normal food.
You can mix around the templates/seasonings as you will. Creating new flavors in the process, in other words, new monsters.

On that note I find paragon aberrations to do quite well with encounters. But Paragons are simply ""perfect"" versions or evolution of a race. If you want to create a ridiculous monster, how about some crafty advanced four armed paragon reptilian war trolls? You could say they were a different species, not paragons at all. Then, with addition to that make them masterminds with such high INT.

Attack my winged pretties!

Or a Paragon Tarrasque enters the picture.....
Maybe a Paragon Devastation Beetle....

[Crake]

CR system is broken, in other breaking news, water found to be wet.

In all seriousness, yes, the paragon template is going to practically non functional when used on such an edge case, that's just the nature of an imperfect system. It's in the epic level handbook for a reason, it was meant to be used on monsters to create epic challenges, so anything sufficiently low CR is going to create a silly result becuase the base creature itself is so weak, and the template doesn't add any HD at all.

[Learn34]

So I realize this isn't a direct answer to your question (I frankly don't have enough experience to have run into any such things), but what about changing the Paragon template (and any number of other templates, for that matter) into a savage progression with variable racial HD? That way you could apply it to just about any creature without creating a class cannon. Alternatively, some of the other threads on monster design I've read on here indicate that CR should be <=HD (IMO = is best), so you've got a pretty broad sweep of things to choose from.

From a pure amusement perspective, the Rabbit of Caerbannog would be hilarious to unleash on some unsuspecting PCs (bonus points if you can trick them into sending a hireling/cohort in first).

[thorr-kan]

I have the following list of templates that might be useful/enjoyable for your purpose:
Dire – Tome of Horrors, Necromancer Games; available on free preview .pdf
Dungeonbred – Dungeonscape, WotC
Horrid – Eberron Campaign Setting, WotC
Kaiju – Dragon 289, Paizo
Legendary – Monster Manual 2, WotC
Magebred – Eberron Campaign Setting, WotC
Monster of Legacy – Weapons of Legacy, WotC
Monster of Legend – Monster Manual 2, WotC
Monstrous Beast – Savage Species, WotC
Paragon – Epic Level Handbook, WotC
Titanic – Monster Manual 2, WotC
Warbeast – Monster Manual 2, WotC

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Paragon shrieker fungus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm)?

[Thurbane]

There's plenty of other templates that work better in general play than Paragon for this: Monster of Legend, Monstrous Beast, Monster of Legacy etc.

[liquidformat]

So recently I've been looking at the paragon template as a way to make normally very basic enemies into threats that I can still use as a DM even at higher levels.

I do not think paragon works well for this.

While it's funny to imagine a seemingly regular centipede dashing around at the speed of a mid level monk, instantly murdering even trained soldiers with a single bite, I find them to not be very effective at actually properly challenging characters. The example of a centipede is obviously and purposefully a very silly one, what with it being tied for lowest enemy cr while still having an attack, it isn't really a major challenge to a 5th level party, much less an 11th level party. While it certainly might kill a squishier party member if it goes first, the caster can easily kill it once they get to act (provided they don't get targeted round one, of course). That being said, it is incredibly funny to me to imagine my player's reaction when someone runs up to them, begging and pleading them to take vengeance on the centipede that just killed their family in mere seconds.

So I want to ask, what are some other silly "enemies" that you think would be fun to put paragon on? Any enemies that paragon works really well on to make them genuinely a threat to higher level parties that have outpaced them? I haven't looked much at monsters outside of the core books (and what druids like to wildshape into), so I'd love to see some of your thoughts.

To be fair a paragon centipede is plenty smart enough to make tactical decisions as it is smarter than most humanoids, it is reasonable for it to employ stealth tactics and take out the casters first. As such as long as it isn't played stupid it might actually be a viable threat to parties. Also if your party is beatstick heavy even at level 11 they are going to have a headache killing it...

[Lukalaly]

There's plenty of other templates that work better in general play than Paragon for this: Monster of Legend, Monstrous Beast, Monster of Legacy etc.

Yeah, I'm fully aware that paragon isn't exactly the pinnacle of game balance lol. I'm not really asking for good templates, moreso just fun application of this one bad template. Stuff like:


Paragon shrieker fungus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm)?

this is more what I was thinking of, though I get that the list might run dry pretty quick.


To be fair a paragon centipede is plenty smart enough to make tactical decisions as it is smarter than most humanoids, it is reasonable for it to employ stealth tactics and take out the casters first. As such as long as it isn't played stupid it might actually be a viable threat to parties. Also if your party is beatstick heavy even at level 11 they are going to have a headache killing it...

would paragon get rid of the centipede's "mindless"ness, though? if it does, then its probably smarter than the party rogue, and sneakier to boot, with its...40-some hide score? and at least 30 move silently. if not, i guess we basically have a tiny sized ogre thats worse at grappling. which is honestly exactly what i was wanting from this.

[liquidformat]

would paragon get rid of the centipede's "mindless"ness, though? if it does, then its probably smarter than the party rogue, and sneakier to boot, with its...40-some hide score? and at least 30 move silently. if not, i guess we basically have a tiny sized ogre thats worse at grappling. which is honestly exactly what i was wanting from this.

I would rule adding 15 points of int, wis, and cha would cancel out the mindlessness of vermin. I have always thought of paragon making them something like the personified malicious lions from Ghost in the Darkness. But I suppose that is really up to the DM to decide.

[Maat Mons]

At one point, I contemplated a campaign setting where every creature had the paragon template. So you'd have Paragon level-1 Commoners milking Paragon cattle and feeding Paragon chickens, for example. I gave it up after I realized most pecking orders fell apart.

Sure, the Paragon cat, with its +37 to hit and 80 damage, absolutely shreds a Paragon rat, with its 51 AC and 5 health. But the Paragon rat, with its +37 to hit and 26 damage, also shreds a Paragon cat, with its 51 AC and 11 health.



Some of the least-threatening creatures D&D 3.X gave stats to were butterfly, caterpillar, fly, hare, hummingbird, moth, otter, parrot, platypus, puffin, rabbit, skunk, spider, squirrel, thrush, toad, and turtle. Each of those was statted out in one source or another as an option for familiars. Out of those, parrot, platypus, puffin, rabbit, skunk, squirrel, and turtle have natural weapons. The rabbit (but not the hare) has 2 claws and a bite, because the writers of Dragon 341 weren't paying attention.

Clearly, platypus is the one that needs to be turned into a strange monster. It's already a bizarre combination of duck and beaver that seems like it must have originated in a Wizard's lab.



There's a scifi setting I've been considering designing where you can pay to undergo various procedures that give you extraordinary abilities. And some of the lab mice that were experimented on during the development of those procedures escaped into the wild. Their terrifying offspring blight the world to this day.

[Remuko]

how are people coming up with these paragon creatures with low hp? dont they get max hp per hit die, +12 bonus hp per hit die, plus the bonus hp from their con which gets a huge buff from the template? I cant imagine even fractional HD monsters having under 20+ hp, unless they have no Con score.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Intelligent items are considered construct creatures.

And oddly, despite half the abilities not really doing anything at all for them, the other half...

[edit] Okay, more than half of the abilities are friggin' fantastic. But still.

[Maat Mons]

Yeah, Paragons get a goodly amount of health per hit die. But when you've got only got one-fourth of a hit die …

[Kazyan]

Paragon is the ELH's one-size-fits-all way of boosting a monster, but with all the different ways that monsters can challenge a player, you cannot have a simple template that works equally well with all of them. The Paragon Shrieker is the most extreme example, and one random internet denizen has suggested (https://d20npcs.fandom.com/wiki/Mycomax,_paragon_shrieker) (see the Variants section) that an actual Paragon Shrieker could have an at-will Shout SLA.

That said, since Paragon doesn't advance the creature's Hit Dice at all, it will inevitably fail to give very low-level monsters adeqaute HP--and you can expect this failure mode for most monsters in that range of low Hit Dice.

[rel]

+15 con and 12 bonus HP per HD adds up fast but you need a few HD to make it stick.
You also need movement modes and or some favorable terrain.

For example, a paragon blink dog in a dense forest (to prevent flyers from kiting) probably makes a reasonable if gimmicky hard encounter for an unprepared party in the teens.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A paragon rust monster. With levels in psion and thrallherd (for more rust monsters and folugubs, also with class levels).

Watch the party flee in utter terror.

"Eat. Weapons?"

[Remuko]

Yeah, Paragons get a goodly amount of health per hit die. But when you've got only got one-fourth of a hit die …

ive seen nothing to suggest that con bonus or the bonus hp from the template would be divided for creatures with fractional HD. +15 Con and +12 hp per HD should mean a bare minimum of +19 hp per level, thus 20+ hp even for a 1/4 HD creature (as long as it has a con score).

[ShurikVch]

Dragon #341 have stats for Fine Animated Object: ¼ HD (1 hp), Str 1, and does 1d2-5 damage.
Just think a bout a typical detective mystery plot where every new owner of a treasure was found murdered with no clues who or how could do it. Surprise! Murderer was the treasure in question all along!..
Also, Dragon #359 have the "Demon Lord" template. Envision a story where line of demon lords all wearing some "insignia of power" - except the "insignia" in question is the true Demon Lord, and all those "lords" were, actually, just glorified caretakers...