Crit Fishing- Build Advice for Disciple of Dispater

[Godofallu]

Hello everyone. I am currently playing as a lvl 5 Bard in a campaign where the characters are all starting to trend more towards the evil side of the spectrum. I like the bard and am optimizing it fairly well. That said with covid our play group has shrunk down from 6 to 3 (plus DM for 4 active). Bard just isn't as effective when you only have 2 allies. And with one of them now dying and coming back as a Sorcerer the Inspire Courage just isn't as relevant.

Last session I got crit with a battleaxe and dropped from full HP to -3. This was far from my first close call. So I decided to make a new character in-case of character death.


Kensai Fighter 6/ Disciple of Dispater 10
Water Orc -> Dragonborn Transformation. Arctic, Wild -> +6 Str, -2Dex +6 Con, -4 Int, -2 Wis, -6 Cha 30 point buy -> 22 Str, 14 Dex, 22 Con, 4 Int, 6 Wis, 2 Cha so breath weapon or fly (eventually) plus dragonblood or
Lesser Chaond +6 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, -4 Int, -10 Cha with Arctic, Wild and Protocreature 30 Point buy -> 22 Str, 18 Dex, 22 Con, 4 Int, 8 Wis, 2 Cha resist cold/sonic/acid 5 +4 to resist mind effecting spells/abilities
F,F-Combat Expertise, Power Attack
K- Exotic Weapon Proficiency- Talenta Sarrash
1f- +1atk/dmg with exotic weapon
1-Improved Trip
2f-Rain of blows- Extra attack
3-Knockdown
4f- Combat Reflexes
6-Disciple of Darkness
6f- Storm of Blows or cleave or weapon focus or swap to Barbarian 1?
9-Improved Critical

I was hoping someone could look it over and maybe give some advice on feats or different race or template options. For example lvl 6 is it smart to take storm fo blows or will my attack be too low to use anyways? Maybe a better way to spend the first 6 levels ect. I do want to rush Dispater ASAP.

[Glimbur]

Doesn't dragonborn make you good and disciple of dispater require evil? Seems like a mismatch.

Who else is in your party aside from the sorcerer? Makes a difference if it is a samurai or a druid.

[Saintheart]

Kensai variant class doesn't get fighter bonus feats at first level - I think you're at least one feat too heavy. The Kensai swaps out that bonus feat for a +1 to attack and damage with their chosen weapon.

[RNightstalker]

Kensai variant class doesn't get fighter bonus feats at first level - I think you're at least one feat too heavy. The Kensai swaps out that bonus feat for a +1 to attack and damage with their chosen weapon.

Kensai Fighter loses 1st and 4th level feats for automatic weapon focus and weapon specialization.

[Elves]

DOD 9-10 not doing much for you. And no reason to take fighter to 6. Monk 4 (Passive Way ACF) would give you two extra attacks from the Lightning Fists feat (Sword & Fist) while also letting you use the Lightning Maces feat with a necklace of natural attacks that gives your unarmed strike the aptitude property. You also get decisive strike out of the mix, which used in tandem with a White Raven Tactics item or a belt of battle gives you a powerful nova that also boosts your AoO and trip damage that round.

Looking at a build like fighter 4/monk 4/whirling pounce bbn1/DOD 8/x3...

F - Disciple of Darkness
F - EWP
Mnk 1 - IUS, Combat Expertise
1 - PA
Mnk 2 - Improved Trip
3 - Combat Reflexes
Ftr 2 - Rain of Blows
6 - Knock-Down
Ftr 4 - Storm of Blows
9 - Imp Critical
12 - Lightning Fists
15 - Weapon Focus
18 - Lightning Mace
Gloves of the balanced hand for TWF to qualify for lightning mace

Storm of Blows + Lightning Fists + whirling frenzy is -13 attack penalty which is pretty hefty, and unfortunately belt of battle/WRT are competing with wraithstrike for your swift actions, so that is kind of a problem.

At least the aptitude enhancement on your sharrash lets it benefit from your weapon focus feat as well as lightning mace. Another source of to-hit could be Knowledge Devotion with a cleric dip. Go warblade 1/cloistered ceric 1 to get your weapon focus and EWP feats (switched to the necessary weapons with warblade's weapon aptitude) plus Knowledge Devotion from domains, as well as native WRT access to use with your nova. That leaves 1 free level.

[Godofallu]

Doesn't dragonborn make you good and disciple of dispater require evil? Seems like a mismatch.

Who else is in your party aside from the sorcerer? Makes a difference if it is a samurai or a druid.

I just looked at it and Dragonborn doesn't actually mention needing an alignment of L/G or changing you towards that alignment that I see. But fluff would be pretty obvious that Bahamut and Dispater don't match. I totally forgot the dragonborn template was actually a religious template. To me that does kill the one option although if I was the DM I would just handwave it away as the Dragonborn is of Tiamat or something instead. Fluff.

My party is currently a Crusader a Sorcerer and me as a melee Bard. We have a swordsage who occasionally shows up as well and a weak NPC cleric for the good touches.

I do wonder why you mentioned the Druid. Our sorcerer was playing a Barbarian but he did the stupid fighter thing and raged and died. He tends to die fairly often and actually mentioned he has a Druid built and ready to go just in case. Partially why I am building my backup.

PS: Kensai gains proficiency with an exotic weapon at lvl 1 for free. And it does keep the 4th lvl bonus feat. At first lvl it loses the feat to gain +1atk/dmg with chosen weapon. In my case talentia sarrash (however it was spelled).

[Saintheart]

PS: Kensai gains proficiency with an exotic weapon at lvl 1 for free. And it does keep the 4th lvl bonus feat. At first lvl it loses the feat to gain +1atk/dmg with chosen weapon. In my case talentia sarrash (however it was spelled).

I get it, but unless I'm reading your build wrong you've got Combat Expertise and Power Attack at level 1, and I can't figure out how you ... oh, right. Flaw feats, yeah?

EDIT: Also, unless you are really wedded to the 1d10 damage dice and x4 multiplier (which admittedly is pretty good), there are alternative exotic weapons to consider if you're looking at tripping and crit optimisation. A Khopesh (Sandstorm) only does 1d6, but it has an 18-20 crit range and it's a tripping weapon, meaning DoD is going to enhance it a lot more for critical threats at least. Gythka (SavSpec) does 1d8, double weapon, trips, and has an 18-20 crit range too. Another alternative - Notbora (SavSpec), 2d6 damage, 19-20/x2, one end can be used to make trip attacks. Alternatively, Tigerskull Club, (FBurn): 20 threat range, but +2 to tripping, and x4 on critical hits.


At least the aptitude enhancement on your sharrash lets it benefit from your weapon focus feat as well as lightning mace. Another source of to-hit could be Knowledge Devotion with a cleric dip. Go warblade 1/cloistered ceric 1 to get your weapon focus and EWP feats (switched to the necessary weapons with warblade's weapon aptitude) plus Knowledge Devotion from domains, as well as native WRT access to use with your nova. That leaves 1 free level.

If you're willing to waste a feat on Weapon Focus (greatclub), this build (if human, and if you can get around the non-evil requirement) would qualify for a single level in Hida Defender (OA). Warblade Weapon Aptitude would then allow him to use Hida Defender's class feature to raise the critical multiplier of his weapon by 1, which is better than a poke in the eye.

[Elves]

I mean, for the best of both worlds there's always kaorti resin. Aptitude enhancement means you still only need 1 EWP.

[Saintheart]

I mean, for the best of both worlds there's always kaorti resin. Aptitude enhancement means you still only need 1 EWP.

Ah, but you then have the problem of whether that shuts off DoD. Disciple of Dispater requires that you use iron weapons, which kaorti resin isn't.

[Elves]

Mm, good catch. That's lame. If anyone knows how to make it count as metal while still being kaorti you're a winner.


If you're willing to waste a feat on Weapon Focus (greatclub), this build (if human, and if you can get around the non-evil requirement) would qualify for a single level in Hida Defender (OA). Warblade Weapon Aptitude would then allow him to use Hida Defender's class feature to raise the critical multiplier of his weapon by 1, which is better than a poke in the eye.
That would be perfect, but it's limited to specific weapons and weapon aptitude only works for feats. Also alignment clash with DOD.

[Saintheart]

Mm, good catch. That's lame. If anyone knows how to make it count as metal while still being kaorti you're a winner.

Well, I have two gambits I'd put up on the subject. They are likely pretty silly arguments, but arguments nonetheless.

The first this is to peruse the wording of DoD closely. It doesn't require that you actually wield an iron weapon, only that you use such a weapon. And note also that it's not the threat range of the weapon that is increased by Iron Power, it is the Disciple of Dispater's range that is. So the next thing becomes: what if you are 'using' an iron weapon but striking with a kaorti resin one? For example, dual-wielding a club in the primary hand and a dagger in the off hand? Is it not reasonable that your threat range with the club is improved just as that of the dagger, since it's the DoD's threat range that is increased and not just that of the weapon he wields? Alternatively: what if you're wielding a Braid Blade in your hair? Or how about the Ward Cestus from AEG, if you want your fists to count as iron weapons?

The second argument is to look for some effect that allows an item to count as cold iron. I haven't been bothered to look up spells for this, and it is as I said a very silly reading, but if your weapon counts as cold iron, you are therefore wielding an iron weapon.


That would be fitting, but it's limited to specific weapons and weapon aptitude only works for feats.

Oh, my friend, that's where we get to what I consider one of the most elegant and amusing semiotic loopholes in D&D 3.5, the one that powers Hida Defender 1 + Warblade Weapon Aptitude.

The Hida Defender's Critical Focus ability raises the critical multiplier of “the weapon to which the Defender’s Weapon Focus feat applies”. That's the RAW.

The Warblade’s weapon aptitude class feature has the power to change the designated weapon to which a Weapon Focus feat applies.

Whilst the Warblade’s ability says that this can’t result in a feat lacking a Weapon Focus prerequisite, it says nothing about class features. That is: the Warblade changes the weapon to which the Weapon Focus feat applies, and Critical Focus then, per the RAW, increases that critical multiplier by 1 … no matter what the weapon then happens to be. The requirement of a battleaxe, warhammer, or greatclub only applies if you have two Weapon Focus feats.

Now, this oversight has only one potential hole in it: the argument that if you lose Weapon Focus in battleaxe, warhammer, or greatclub, you also do not have the prerequisites for Hida Defender at all, and Critical Focus disappears. The argument in reply would be that you still have that Weapon Focus feat, – Warblade has just changed the weapon to which that feat’s benefit applies, and Critical Focus then follows along with it.

[Elves]

The first this is to peruse the wording of DoD closely. It doesn't require that you actually wield an iron weapon, only that you use such a weapon. And note also that it's not the threat range of the weapon that is increased by Iron Power, it is the Disciple of Dispater's range that is. So the next thing becomes: what if you are 'using' an iron weapon but striking with a kaorti resin one?
I'm in all for lawyering but I also respect the limits of language. Intent here is pretty clear and picking it apart gets into stretch territory.


The second argument is to look for some effect that allows an item to count as cold iron. I haven't been bothered to look up spells for this, and it is as I said a very silly reading, but if your weapon counts as cold iron, you are therefore wielding an iron weapon.
Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. Problem is most will say "for the purpose of overcoming DR" only. But if there's one that is generally stated that's all you need.

[Saintheart]

I'm in all for lawyering but I also respect the limits of language. Intent here is pretty clear and picking it apart gets into stretch territory.

I know, but it's interesting to contemplate. Double-Ended Sword, one blade is kaorti resin, one blade isn't. It's a single weapon. Am I not using an iron or steel weapon, o parsimonious DM, especially if the steel end is a Defending weapon? :)

[Elves]

Now, this oversight has only one potential hole in it: the argument that if you lose Weapon Focus in battleaxe, warhammer, or greatclub, you also do not have the prerequisites for Hida Defender at all, and Critical Focus disappears. The argument in reply would be that you still have that Weapon Focus feat, – Warblade has just changed the weapon to which that feat’s benefit applies, and Critical Focus then follows along with it.
Exactly, if you switch it you cease to qualify for the class and lose the benefit entirely.

I don't actually think that PRC disqualification is a thing (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24953372&postcount=130), but this is 3.0 content where it was the unambiguous law of the land, so it's a tight design that way. I don't see an out.

[RNightstalker]

The second argument is to look for some effect that allows an item to count as cold iron. I haven't been bothered to look up spells for this, and it is as I said a very silly reading, but if your weapon counts as cold iron, you are therefore wielding an iron weapon.




Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. Problem is most will say "for the purpose of overcoming DR" only. But if there's one that is generally stated that's all you need.

The Metalline weapon enhancement doesn't mention DR at all, but it does mention changing the actual composition...that might be a deal breaker.

Also, there's possibly a third argument: the Aptitude Weapon allows you to use feats related to weapon...well, kaorti weapons do need a feat as they're exotic weapons, if it was earlier in the day I might be able to connect the dots lol.

[Saintheart]

Exactly, if you switch it you cease to qualify for the class and lose the benefit entirely.

I don't actually think that PRC disqualification is a thing (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24953372&postcount=130), but this is 3.0 content where it was the unambiguous law of the land, so it's a tight design that way. I don't see an out.

I believe differently on the RAW, but rather than consume the thread, suffice it to say this: nowhere in the Warblade's Weapon Aptitude feature does it say an actual feat is swapped out. I realise it's very easy, and it was likely the RAI, to conclude that if you swap the designated weapon you are swapping feats, but this is not what the feature says it does. It is, IMHO, only changing the weapon which gets the benefit of the feat, not removing the feat itself. The feature also rules that you can't thereby lose a prerequisite for another feat, but this is not stated as something that happens automatically in general in D&D as a result of changing the designated weapon -- rather it is a control that's imposed on the feature. And it is a control that, by RAW, applies only to prerequisites for other feats, not prestige class features.

[Elves]

If the weapon in parentheses isn't the designated weapon, I don't know what is.
Certainly I agree that if it's not a weapon-in-parentheses feat, no prereqs are broken.

Now to be real, the fact that it calls out feat disqualification but not PRC disqualification seems like further evidence that PRC disqualification isn't actually a thing in 3.5.
But I'm just not gonna back that horse because then I'd have to keep bringing it up.

[Godofallu]

So it's important to keep full Bab for the first 6 levels to get into DoD as early as possible. We're at lvl 5 currently so lower level gameplay is important. What the build looks like at 20 is kinda irrelevant as this character will probably never make it past 15.

I considered going Fighter 2/ Barbarian 2/ Mariner 1/ Crusader or Warblade 1 or something like that. Mixing around physical dips for first 6 levels. We don't play with any favored class or multi-class penalty rules or whatever. But the Kensai at lvl 5 gains +2Atk/Dmg and taking extra levels in it gives an extra swing with a weapon which seems very deadly. I could see Barbarian 2 giving improved trip without combat expertise being good in other builds but my PRC requires the combat expertise anyways.

Speaking of which... I need 13 INT! So yeah my point buy is going to be forced to change a ton. Probably will have to dump the entire race/template selection I was originally thinking.

Also I heard it mention that lvl 9 and 10 for DoD kinda sucks. I guess lvl 9 does nothing and 10 gives a pretty great melee tanking spell which seems cool. Maybe I will dump it for something else but DR 15/Adamantine looks decent.

[Elves]

Ftr4/barb1/monk2 only delays your entry by one level. But yeah if it's a real game you can just rebuild whenever you get to high levels. Warblade/crusader dip best delayed until 9th for iron heart surge/white raven tactics/thicket of blades, so ftr4/barb1/mariner1/DOD?

I'd never heard of Mariner btw. That's a good dip.

The iron body SLA isn't bad if you have an at will teleport. I suggest ritual of shadow walking from Lords of Darkness page 125, since iron body conveniently makes you immune to the ability damage from it. Build I suggested above could easily be fighter 4/monk 4/whirling pounce bbn1/warblade 1/DOD 10. But it's probably not as good as the 3-4 extra feats you could get by using those levels for something like cleric1/mariner 1 or ordained champion 1.

[Maat Mons]

There are 15 creature types listed in the Monster Manual. Of those, 5 give immunity to critical hits. Additionally, there are spells and magic items that can negate critical hits. So if you focus all your energies on optimizing critical hits, you will sometimes be unable to utilize most of the benefits of your build.

While Disciple of Dispater has a good Will save, your earlier levels all have a bad Will saves, and your Wisdom modifier is negative. Items that grant immunity to mind-affecting effects won't become affordable until higher level. Maybe it would be worthwhile to consider the Deformity (Madness) feat?

I'm not sure that bringing a mundane build into a campaign starting at 5th level is a great idea. You're on the cusp of where mundane builds start a steady decline in power, relatively speaking.

I might just be missing something, but how is a Fighter with Int 4 qualifying for Combat Expertise? There exist ways to ignore the Int 13 prerequisite, but I'm not seeing any of the one's I'm familiar with in your build.

The errata for Eberron Campaign Setting says the critical multiplier for a Talenta Sharrash is x2.

[Elves]

I might just be missing something, but how is a Fighter with Int 4 qualifying for Combat Expertise?
@OP, in build I suggested it's coming from monk.