How to make a weapon count as cold iron?

[Elves]

For this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629043-Crit-Fishing-Build-Advice-for-Disciple-of-Dispater) we want a kaorti resin weapon that also counts as iron or steel so that it can be used with Disciple of Dispater.

Seems like the easiest way to do this is to make it count as cold iron. What ways are there to do this?

If you have other ideas for how to make it count as iron or steel, that's welcome too.

[Troacctid]

You can make a weapon count as cold iron easily enough if all you want to do is bypass DR. With a little more difficulty, you can even transmute a weapon into cold iron. However, there's no way to make a weapon count as cold iron for purposes other than bypassing DR, while also having it retain the properties of its original material.

[Elves]

Looking for something where the language is not limited to DR. I don't doubt that your knowledge of the material is very complete, but if anyone has an idea or knows something to the contrary, please say so.

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Looked and did turn up this:


As long as you are touching the ground, your unarmed attacks are treated as cold iron weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction.

This makes them count as cold iron for the purpose of dealing damage, not just for the purpose of bypassing DR, so it should work. 2 feats though. And only applies to creatures with DR.

How could you grant DR to a creature you're attacking, or treat them as having DR? Preferably without using an action?

[Troacctid]

It's three feats plus a racial requirement, and it only applies to unarmed attacks. Even if it solved your problem, which it doesn't, I can't imagine it being worth the cost.

[Elves]

Unarmed part is covered by Weapon Aptitude or the Aptitude property. The problem is that a lot of your foes won't have DR.

"Dealing damage" wouldn't necessarily apply to crits since that's during the attack roll, but technically crits do affect the damage you deal...I'm just rounding up the options with some modicum of pliability in the wording.


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Now here's something interesting:


Weapons made from kaorti resin require the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat to wield... For example, if the character acquires one of the ribbon longswords of wounding wielded by the Guardians of Gloom and Despair, she must take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (longsword) feat.

So it seems like EWP (kaorti) is not a thing; rather a weapon of kaorti becomes exotic. Thus, any weapon that's already exotic can be made of kaorti without requiring an extra feat or the aptitude property.

[Saintheart]

Found it, or something anyway: the Ring of Adamantine Touch ... but only the Book of Exalted Deeds version, because the MiC nerfed it. Your weapons and natural attacks count as adamantine, which maybe might be a type of steel. 120 grand though, and as said the MiC reduced it down to count only for DR purposes.

[Lin]

Ghostwalk p64 has Truesilver: basically, you incorporate magical silver into a weapon, which allows you to treat the weapon as silver against enemies that are vulnerable to silver. The web update changes it to a 1000gp flat cost.

Maybe you could combine that with Metalline (Underdark)? It's a +2 property that lets you change the material of a metallic weapon into any other metal.

Since metalline specifies "metallic weapon," it should only affect the incorporated magical silver, and not the resin. Ask your DM, though.

[Elves]

Maybe you could PAO kaorti resin into steel, alloy it with Baatorian green steel (Lord of the Iron Fortress 47), dispel PAO and end up with a kaorti-greensteel alloy? The greensteel explicitly applies to any weapon "created" with it, and the mention of steel alloy only pertains to the ability to "create" such a weapon. This weapon ticks both boxes, created with greensteel and created by alloying it with steel.

Doesn't exactly pass the real world sanity test for whether such a substance would be an effective weapon, but then again, why not? Magical resin melded with hellish iron? The kaorti is fictitious to begin with.



Ghostwalk p64 has Truesilver: basically, you incorporate magical silver into a weapon, which allows you to treat the weapon as silver against enemies that are vulnerable to silver.
This has wording even more permissive than Earth Fist ("harming" rather than "damaging") which is good.

And though I was skeptical of "treated", the fluff actually does say "This ability incorporates magically purified and hardened silverinto the weapon", and the image shows that, so I think the metalline trick would work.

There, however, you get to the problem. It only applies to "creatures particularly vulnerable to silver". So good against devils and lycanthropes (and with Disciple of Dispater fluff, you can imagine such a weapon being wielded by Dispater's enforcers in Baator, which is kind of cool), but not generally.


Found it, or something anyway: the Ring of Adamantine Touch ... but only the Book of Exalted Deeds version, because the MiC nerfed it. Your weapons and natural attacks count as adamantine, which maybe might be a type of steel. 120 grand though, and as said the MiC reduced it down to count only for DR purposes.
MIC does overrule old version and I'm not sure how old version would be made to count as iron/steel given it doesn't seem to physically change weapon's composition unlike truesilver. However, does give a precedent for a "ring of iron touch", which I guess is a fallback. Draconomicon gives adamantine as 100gp/lb and iron as 1 sp/lb so such an item would likely be pretty cheap.

[Troacctid]

Unarmed part is covered by Weapon Aptitude or the Aptitude property. The problem is that a lot of your foes won't have DR.

"Dealing damage" wouldn't necessarily apply to crits since that's during the attack roll, but technically crits do affect the damage you deal...I'm just rounding up the options with some modicum of pliability in the wording.
There's at least four or five separate layers of cheese here, all to gain an effect that isn't even particularly impressive. Has the DM even approved any of this sketchiness?

[Elves]

The damage part is questionable, but aptitude applying is straightforward. So, critfish sandwich with a slice of parmesan, ok, but we are not going grilled cheese here.

In any case, Earth Fist isn't a great option, and no, I don't think legally applies to the attack roll. I'd take both the "baatorian alloy" idea above and the homebrewed "ring of iron touch" over it.

[the_tick_rules]

Second the metalline property. +2 from MIC. It can be adamantine, steel, silver, or cold iron. I asked a similar question myself in the past. The answer is it's very hard on purpose. Cold iron is resistant to magic and as such very difficult to magically replicate for that reason.

[Elves]

Anyone want to do a RAW critique of the greensteel alloy idea?

For a different angle I'll bring up Saintheart's idea from the other thread:

When using an iron or steel weapon, a 4th-level disciple of Dispater gains a +1 insight bonus on attack and damage rolls [does not say "with that weapon"]. Furthermore, his [not the weapon's] threat range is doubled as if he were using a keen weapon.
So if you are doing something that could be considered "using" that isn't attacking (I don't think simply wielding is plausible here), you get the benefit for all weapons you wield. Utilizing a weapon's defending property being the obvious option.

[Darg]

Double weapons can be made half one material and half another. You would be wielding only one weapon. The double weapon entry only mentions it being treated as a separate weapons only when TWF. DoD only requires you to be using the weapon, not that you have to hit with the iron part.

[Kazyan]

Weapons and armor can technically be made of multiple exotic materials, but only one of them will count by virtue of being the only one with enough substance to have the intended effect on the item. Depending on your DM, you might be able to get away with a kaorti resin blade and an iron hilt, such that it is clearly a kaorti resin weapon, but which does have enough iron in it to work with The Iron Duke's profane blessings.

Lean into the fluff, here. You have to sacrifice an intelligent creature on an iron altar to become a Disciple of Dispater--forge a piece of that same altar into the hilt of your kaorti resin weapon, so that the blood will remain on your hands forever.

[Elves]

Weapons and armor can technically be made of multiple exotic materials, but only one of them will count
Well that kills the greensteel gimmick. Or does it? The phrase is: "If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material...". But you're only making it with one special material (greensteel), which is how you're applying the greensteel in the first place. The kaorti benefits are added later by dispelling PAO. So you could rules lawyer it as a technicality.

As far as "using", apparently the word actually is used to just mean "wielding" in some places (like the Active Shield Defense feat). So there's another technicality you could argue.


Weapons and armor can technically be made of multiple exotic materials, but only one of them will count by virtue of being the only one with enough substance to have the intended effect on the item. Depending on your DM, you might be able to get away with a kaorti resin blade and an iron hilt, such that it is clearly a kaorti resin weapon, but which does have enough iron in it to work with The Iron Duke's profane blessings.
Because the special materials line only applies to exotic materials, this is not illegal, but a purely fluff solution isn't ideal.


The double weapon entry only mentions it being treated as a separate weapons only when TWF.
That's interesting. This clearly would work, and the gythka from Savage Species would work with it. Problem is, a critfisher probably does want to TWF. (Though it's not strictly necessary since Lightning Mace can be used with aptitude on unarmed strike.)

[Troacctid]

The damage part is questionable, but aptitude applying is straightforward. So, critfish sandwich with a slice of parmesan, ok, but we are not going grilled cheese here.

In any case, Earth Fist isn't a great option, and no, I don't think legally applies to the attack roll. I'd take both the "baatorian alloy" idea above and the homebrewed "ring of iron touch" over it.
Aptitude applying to feats like Boomerang Daze has always been controversial, but Earth Fist introduces an additional layer of controversy because it doesn't apply to a weapon at all—in fact it specifically applies to attacks made without weapons. You also have to believe that "for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction" includes critical threat range, even though it's part of the attack roll, not the damage roll. Meanwhile, it's all predicated on a questionable reading of kaorti weapons—the strict RAW for them is that they override the weapon's crit range, e.g. going from 19–20/x2 to just x4, as seen in the example kaorti weapon. Wrap it up with Disciple of Dispater's unupdated 3.0 templating, which you have to cross your fingers and hope the DM decides can be used without revision, and you've got a big ol' hot mess of nonsense, even without considering the other iffy aspects of kaorti resin (namely double-dipping EWP + having to find a friendly kaorti) that are RAW but not necessarily RAI.

[Elves]

Aptitude applying to feats like Boomerang Daze has always been controversial
What's questionable about it to you? Seems entirely straightforward


but Earth Fist introduces an additional layer of controversy because it doesn't apply to a weapon at all—in fact it specifically applies to attacks made without weapons.
Unarmed strikes are weapons. They're on the weapons table under the category "unarmed attacks" along with gauntlets.


You also have to believe that "for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction" includes critical threat range, even though it's part of the attack roll, not the damage roll.
It is worth noting that in 3e statblocks, where unlike in 3.5 the "attack" and "damage" entries are separate, threat range is included in the "damage" entry.


Meanwhile, it's all predicated on a questionable reading of kaorti weapons—the strict RAW for them is that they override the weapon's crit range, e.g. going from 19–20/x2 to just x4, as seen in the example kaorti weapon.
Looks like you're right in the statblock. Because the text, if seen as disagreeing with it, would overrule it, that's not a final word, but it's certainly interesting and could obviate the whole thing. So you would be looking at a choice between 13-20/x4 vs 9-20/x2. I wonder how the math works out once you factor Lightning Mace in.


the other iffy aspects of kaorti resin (namely double-dipping EWP
Being beneficial does not make something iffy


+ having to find a friendly kaorti) that are RAW but not necessarily RAI.
Fluff requirements are never an object. You can always make up an explanation.

[ShurikVch]

Be a Warforged, take Cold Iron Tracery, graft the weapon?..

[Quentinas]

If you consider the "using part", making some armor spikes in cold iron, use the armor (so you are using ther armor spikes as they are part of the armor) and then boost the other weapons with disciple of dispater? Or use a shield in cold iron (if you can animate it is better) , so it could be counted as a weapon in cold iron while attacking with another weapon?

[Twurps]

Unarmed strikes are weapons.

Is 'contradictio in terminis' a thing in English? if not, it should be and this is a prime example.

Now I can't stomach the amount of "rules parsing until there's nothing left and call it RAW" in this thread, so most of this wouldn't even fly at my table, even it we were going 100%RAW. But IF I were to go along with all that, this is where the whole thing would break down again. contradiciones in termini can work RAI, they can work with what I call RAW, but they can't work in any form of literal rules parsing.

[FrogInATopHat]

And so on and so forth [summary of most recent post mine]

Any player trying to stack this level of rule-foolery at my table would be told to jog on in no uncertain terms.

If you can find a GM to agree to all of this, then you have my condolences, because your overall game will likely be awful.

[FrogInATopHat]

Fluff requirements are never an object. You can always make up an explanation.

You can certainly make up something.

Whether it's met with approval or outright derision is another matter.

[Elves]

Be a Warforged, take Cold Iron Tracery, graft the weapon?..

only for the purpose of overcoming DR unfortunately


Is 'contradictio in terminis' a thing in English? if not, it should be and this is a prime example.
The feat says unarmed attack. Unarmed strike is a weapon listed in the "unarmed attacks" category, as is gauntlet.


Summary of possible solutions so far:

Does work
- Double weapon with one end iron works, but precludes TWFing with that weapon.
- Metalline truesilver > cold iron works, but only vs foes "especially vulnerable to silver".

Gray area
- While intent for DoD "using" was probably "attacking with", there are other interactions that are also referred to as "using", including, in some cases, simply wielding the item.

Requires argument
- Earth Fist plausibly works with reference to the damage entry including threat range in 3e statblocks, but only vs foes with DR, feat tax and other requirements, so not a great solution.
- Baatorian green steel alloy could be argued on a technicality to evade the normal special materials limit because it wasn't actually made with 2 special materials. (This would not be easily extended to most materials because they don't work as alloys, so it's not hugely destructive.)
- Only special materials have the rule that a weapon must be primarily made of that material to count as made of it, so there's a suggestion a weapon could still count as normal iron if some, albeit mechanically insignificant, portion were made of it.

Custom item
- There's an item in BOED that gives a wielded weapon the full properties of adamant, which gives precedent for a custom item that does the same for iron or cold iron.


-- But this may be moot. Kaorti resin webpage says "critical multiple", but kaorti statblocks show resin also overriding weapon's natural threat range. Since text has precedence, i's a question of whether critical multiple/multiplier is ever used elsewhere to indicate a weapon's critical traits as a whole, threat range included.

Did the math rq and with DoD 8, Imp Crit, Lightning Mace and no kaorti, 19-20/x4 base weapon still comes out over 18-20/x2 by ~2.65x vs ~2.37x per atk, but in practice I wouldn't be surprised if consistency of latter performed better. (And if you don't need to trip, 18-20/x2 doesn't require EWP -- so kukri>tiny greathammer but sharrash>whatever the 18-20/x2 tripper weapon is.)

[Darg]

If TWF is important, use the double weapon trick and strongarm bracers. This let's you wield the weapons one handed with no penalty.

[Saintheart]

Aptitude applying to feats like Boomerang Daze has always been controversial ...


What's questionable about it to you? Seems entirely straightforward

The reason it's "controversial" is because it's arguable whether it was RAI to allow something like Lightning Mace to apply to a greathammer, despite the fact Aptitude weapons appear to do precisely that. What the RAI was likely to have been was that Aptitude should have applied to feats that have a designated weapon, e.g. Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation and the like, which are the examples the weapon quality gives. But that, as we know, was not what we were given, and thus the RAW.

When it comes to Boomerang Daze specifically there is a legitimate question, because we can see that Aptitude deals in feats applying to one type of weapon. And unfortunately the word 'type' is used pretty loosely in D&D. Given the remainder of Aptitude's text, I would conclude that when the writers are talking about weapon 'type', they're talking about a weapon category narrow enough to which WF could be applied, i.e. one weapon, e.g. "longsword", or "goliath greathammer". (You can't apply Weapon Focus to "slashing weapons", for example). And the issue with Boomerang Daze is that it at least arguably applies to more than one type of weapon: the Talenta boomerang or the Xen'drik boomerang are different weapons, with different proficiencies. There's a similar issue (I think) when Aptituding unarmed attacks too, because 'unarmed attack' arguably includes the normal weedy 1d3 or gauntlet slap ... but also the monk's unarmed strike, which is arguably an unarmed attack too. Ergo, if the feat applies to unarmed attacks, it arguably applies to more than one type of weapon.


Meanwhile, it's all predicated on a questionable reading of kaorti weapons—the strict RAW for them is that they override the weapon's crit range, e.g. going from 19–20/x2 to just x4, as seen in the example kaorti weapon.

Dunno where that RAW comes from. Have a look at the Web article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a).


A resin piercing or slashing weapon has a critical multiple of x4.

That's it. Says nothing about the range, only a reference to the multiplier. If the suggestion is that the Kaorti monster in Fiend Folio 1 wields a dagger which has a 20/x4 multiplier and therefore the whole critical threat range is overwritten, I'd suggest taking a closer look at the monster entry again ... because the ribbon dagger that monster is wielding grants a +2 to Disarm attempts, which a default dagger doesn't supply either. So at best that's RAI, not RAW - the dagger the creature is wielding is a unique weapon which only has a 20 threat range, the kaorti resin hasn't ripped its critical threat range away.

[Troacctid]

Dunno where that RAW comes from. Have a look at the Web article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a).



That's it. Says nothing about the range, only a reference to the multiplier. If the suggestion is that the Kaorti monster in Fiend Folio 1 wields a dagger which has a 20/x4 multiplier and therefore the whole critical threat range is overwritten, I'd suggest taking a closer look at the monster entry again ... because the ribbon dagger that monster is wielding grants a +2 to Disarm attempts, which a default dagger doesn't supply either. So at best that's RAI, not RAW - the dagger the creature is wielding is a unique weapon which only has a 20 threat range, the kaorti resin hasn't ripped its critical threat range away.
The article says the feat needed for a ribbon dagger is Exotic Weapon Proficiency (dagger). 🤷

[Saintheart]

The article says the feat needed for a ribbon dagger is Exotic Weapon Proficiency (dagger). 🤷

So what? That EWP might be needed because the weapon is exotic due to providing +2 to Disarm attempts, not because the kaorti resin has created a weapon which has a 20 threat range. Like I said, kaorti resin doesn't give you a +2 to Disarm.

[Elves]

There's a similar issue (I think) when Aptituding unarmed attacks too, because 'unarmed attack' arguably includes the normal weedy 1d3 or gauntlet slap ... but also the monk's unarmed strike, which is arguably an unarmed attack too. Ergo, if the feat applies to unarmed attacks, it arguably applies to more than one type of weapon.
Good point. If you want to argue aptitude working for it then, you would have to dig for places where unarmed attack was used in a way clearly and specifically meaning unarmed strike. Not gonna do that since that method sucks anyways and I can't think of anywhere else it matters (Snap Kick already doesn't work with aptitude).

This isn't an issue for Lightning Mace which is specific to light maces.

Boomerang Daze does seem to be a casualty, though there is a counterargument. Unlike if it just said "boomerangs" or "swords" or "light weapons", it calls out the particular weapons it applies to and so can be read to "affect the use of a particular type of weapon", which it does. Both inclusively, and because there is some grammatical ambiguity about whether it's strictly singular.