Why Not Make a New Gate?

[Emmit Svenson]

Xykon and Redcloak want to capture Serini's gate. The Order of the Stick want to stop him. There's a risk of the Snarl escaping or the whole world getting destroyed if the last gate is destroyed.

Well, why not make a new gate? Serini's people managed it. Couldn't Team Evil build one around the rift in Gobbotopia, then use the ritual? Couldn't the Order of the Stick send a message to V's mentor and/or the church hierarchies and ask them to build some around the other three rifts? I mean, Xykon probably wouldn't think it was as much fun as the hunt, but if he has the patience to craft magic items, why not gates? The Order probably thinks there's not enough time, but why not make the attempt?

[InvisibleBison]

It took an epic-level wizard and druid working together to create the original gates. It's possible that neither Team Evil nor OOTS are capable of duplicating that feat, either because they aren't high enough level, because the spell needs specifically a wizard and a druid to cast it, or both.

Also, it may be that the rifts have grown too large to be contained by the gates - we don't really know the technical details of how the gate creation process works.

[Jason]

In Start of Darkness when Team Evil accidentally destroyed Lirian's Gate they decided they could not replace it themselves.

[halfeye]

In Start of Darkness when Team Evil accidentally destroyed Lirian's Gate they decided they could not replace it themselves.

That was a long time ago, they've gained some levels since then. The OotS may be incapable, but they know some people stronger than themselves who probably could restore the gates, so asking why no-one is trying to do that seems reasonable to me.

[sihnfahl]

That was a long time ago, they've gained some levels since then. The OotS may be incapable, but they know some people stronger than themselves who probably could restore the gates, so asking why no-one is trying to do that seems reasonable to me.
Durkon knows the rifts can be sealed... (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)...

Rifts would continue to form, of course, but they'd seal those up as well.

From OOTS standpoint, though, they first have to deal with the fact that X+R are trying to get the existing gates. They can reinforce the existing gates after X+R are dealt with.

(Oh, as for knowing epic-level folks? I wonder how hard it would be for them to convince those to come along when, you know, the world would be utterly destroyed otherwise...)

As to why X+R aren't trying to build the gates? Well, why build new when you have another ready-made, and all you have to do is take it?

There's also the formation of the gate itself. Specifically, the divine component. It TDO doesn't know the divine component that a God needs to implement to form a Gate, that's an issue. And since TDO isn't talking to the other Gods ... at all ...

[Jason]

Xykon sat on his bony backside in Azure City torturing paladins and creating magic items for months rather than trying to discover how to make a new gate. Redcloak didn't do anything to try to create a new gate either. It seems safe to say that Team Evil believes creating a new gate is still beyond their abilities.

[Dr.Zero]

Raw guess? X's team lacks an epic divine spell caster like Lirian (RC is getting close to epic only now).
OOTS probably the same.

[Quartz]

Well, why not make a new gate?


Guess what? The people who can do it - Dorukan and Lirian - are Soul Bound in a gem in Xykon's pocket. If an accord is not reached with the Snarl then I expect Durkon or Redcloak will resurrect them after Xykon's defeat and they will remake the gates.

[elros]

Guess what? The people who can do it - Dorukan and Lirian - are Soul Bound in a gem in Xykon's pocket. If an accord is not reached with the Snarl then I expect Durkon or Redcloak will resurrect them after Xykon's defeat and they will remake the gates.
I think that they won't be resurrected, but will find a way to pass the information along in some other way. I think V's ioun stone will play a role.

[dancrilis]

Redcloak says they might be able to do it if they were both Epic - at the time we don't know if Xykon was even Epic (although it seems likely).

Redcloak is still not Epic (as far as we know).

[understatement]

Guess what? The people who can do it - Dorukan and Lirian - are Soul Bound in a gem in Xykon's pocket. If an accord is not reached with the Snarl then I expect Durkon or Redcloak will resurrect them after Xykon's defeat and they will remake the gates.


I feel like they're unable to resurrected. Their bodies are destroyed or gone, so the only way to get them back is through True Resurrection. Durkon is nowhere near that level (17th) and the Order doesn't have 50000gp diamonds on hand.

[KorvinStarmast]

It seems safe to say that Team Evil believes creating a new gate is still beyond their abilities. Or not in their interests, yet.
I think that they won't be resurrected, but will find a way to pass the information along in some other way. I think V's ioun stone will play a role. Not a bad estimate. I'll drop three silver pieces on that betting square. :smallcool:

[facw]

Guess what? The people who can do it - Dorukan and Lirian - are Soul Bound in a gem in Xykon's pocket. If an accord is not reached with the Snarl then I expect Durkon or Redcloak will resurrect them after Xykon's defeat and they will remake the gates.

I've got a pretty strong suspicion that we will get a real fix for the Snarl, not just an attempt to seal it away again (with or without four color gates). And I certainly don't expect someone who is not a member of the order to be responsible to for solving this problem. Thor's spot-welding solution really doesn't seem like it will make for a satisfying conclusion. In any event, while the Dark One is a new factor, so too is the world in the rift, so we've got more to learn about the rifts and the snarls before we can identify the best way to destroy the rift.

[Quartz]

I feel like they're unable to resurrected. Their bodies are destroyed or gone, so the only way to get them back is through True Resurrection. Durkon is nowhere near that level (17th) and the Order doesn't have 50000gp diamonds on hand.


V is one level away from being able to cast Wish. And Redcloak can cast Miracle.

[woweedd]

The ritual for how to do so is lost, and Redcloak isn't actually epic-level. Also, this is a common thing, and it peeves me off: Whya re we assuming any of the High Priests, or, indeed, Andrius are epic-level? The High Priest of the Twelve Gods, during his fight scene with Redcloak, didn't use any spell above level 6, which would mean he's level 11, roughly: High, in OOTS where a spellcaster breaching level 10 is uncommon, but not epic. I think it's highly likely there are only three priests in the world who are even close to being able to cast the Gate ritual, those being Redcloak, Durkon, and Hilgyia. We have never seen an epic-level Divine spellcaster in the present-day of the comic, and all indication is that there are none. As for Aandrius, well, he's certainly high-level, but I doubt he's epic.

[Dr.Zero]

The ritual for how to do so is lost, and Redcloak isn't actually epic-level. Also, this is a common thing, and it peeves me off: Whya re we assuming any of the High Priests, or, indeed, Andrius are epic-level? The High Priest of the Twelve Gods, during his fight scene with Redcloak, didn't use any spell above level 6, which would mean he's level 11, roughly: High, in OOTS where a spellcaster breaching level 10 is uncommon, but not epic. I think it's highly likely there are only three priests in the world who are even close to being able to cast the Gate ritual, those being Redcloak, Durkon, and Hilgyia. We have never seen an epic-level Divine spellcaster in the present-day of the comic, and all indication is that there are none. As for Aandrius, well, he's certainly high-level, but I doubt he's epic.

About Aandrius I can reply for myself: what made me think he was epic was the idea V had about A defeating the ABD without even trying too hard.
Afair the author explained it was a joke and that, moreover, V was so trance deprived that he believed a thing not entirely possible.

Personally, being a fan of the death of the author, I don't like it too much, specially the second part: there was no reason for V, just because the lack of trance, to think that A had any superpower, if not complete hallucinations, but V didn't hallucinate, at least until a moment before, but he was just suffering aim penalties. He was indeed thinking quite clearly just a couple of pages before, when he analyzed Q offer to help, concluding Q would have been killed on sight by both the paladins and A. The story never suggested anything about such a deep mental inability to assess one's strength and it should not rely on an author's explanation or commentary.

Said that, though, it means A won't appear in comic as epic, because logic loses to the fact the author does of his own story what he thinks is best.

[dancrilis]

what made me think he was epic was the idea V had about A defeating the ABD without even trying too hard.

It was the fiends idea that indicated that Aarindarius could intercede - they didn't say easily - Vaarsuvius already considered that if Qarr could deliver a message to them they could do that.

The panel where Aarindarius kills the dragon is a visual gag (which also gets the idea that they could meaningly intercede across) but their is nothing in the comic that indicates that it is Vaarsuvius's firm belief on how the conflict would play out.

It is also possibly worth nothing that Vaarsuvius felt that with more time they themselves likely had additional options - so it is not surprising that they considered a different wizard to be able to help in a similiar manner.

[Mike Havran]

The ritual for how to do so is lost, and Redcloak isn't actually epic-level. Also, this is a common thing, and it peeves me off: Whya re we assuming any of the High Priests, or, indeed, Andrius are epic-level? The High Priest of the Twelve Gods, during his fight scene with Redcloak, didn't use any spell above level 6, which would mean he's level 11, roughly: High, in OOTS where a spellcaster breaching level 10 is uncommon, but not epic. I think it's highly likely there are only three priests in the world who are even close to being able to cast the Gate ritual, those being Redcloak, Durkon, and Hilgyia. We have never seen an epic-level Divine spellcaster in the present-day of the comic, and all indication is that there are none. As for Aandrius, well, he's certainly high-level, but I doubt he's epic.
The High Priest of the Twelve Gods was casting Resurrection in #410, Veldrina is high level for that and some High priests were spamming 7th level spells as well. So I think level 13 is not that uncommon, level 17 is.

[Dr.Zero]

It was the fiends idea that indicated that Aarindarius could intercede - they didn't say easily - Vaarsuvius already considered that if Qarr could deliver a message to them they could do that.


Actually, the first idea that came to V before the appearence of the fiends, was to ask Q to teleport to A's tower, to ask A's help.
And V was thinking clearly enough to realize that, aside killing Q, the paladins and Durkon, instead in opposition of A, had no mean to stop the dragon, since they couldn't ever reach them.

Moreover V never apparently doubted that A could dispatch the ABD (which, btw in itself, requires at least disnjunction, for the Anti Magic Field, and a lot of spellpower after that), he only choose the deal because he didn't want to ask for A's help.

Again, finally, the fact that the image of A dispatching the ABD was a gag is known because the author pointed that out, not because the story.

[JeenLeen]

One person mentioned True Resurrection. I'm pretty sure the author has said that True Res does not exist in his setting. Hence Nale being ashed really killed Nale forever.
Also agree that Xykon is probably the only epic spellcaster we've seen 'alive'.

---

More to the question, though, I'm leaning towards a narrative reason than an in-universe one. (Well, maybe a bit in-universe, due to Elan.)

The gates could be sealed, in theory. It's probably within the Order's ability, in the sense that the Gods could seal it (or so I assume) and Durkon could (probably) reach Odin if he needed to. But I doubt the gods would, between their meeting being stalled indefinitely and just they don't seem very proactive. Team Evil cannot, in that they lack an epic divine caster and I'd assume the Dark One is ignorant about how to, or isn't talking to Redcloak.

But it's really unsatisfying if the comic ends, or even has a good break point, where the meeting ends and the gods decide to reseal the current tears.

I also think an infodump from the old epic spellcasters, from the gem, seems narratively unfit. Seems too reliant on Start of Darkness material. Maybe Serini is persuaded or somehow passes on or leaks info to the Order, but I doubt they do.

I think the Snarl will be resolved, not sealed away. We have some mystery about what is really going on inside, with the planet there, and so I'm really guessing that none of the current plans will be what solves the day. Yeah, maybe the Dark One does work and play nice with the other gods by the end--that would be nice (and I can see it a few ways, with or without Redcloak's help), and goblins get some better status in the world. But I reckon it won't be a new 4-color seal that saves the day, but something the Order finds out and interacts with about what the Snarl really is.

[Quartz]

Something else to consider: Epic spells often require expenditure of considerable amounts of XP. XP which they might not have had.

[woweedd]

The High Priest of the Twelve Gods was casting Resurrection in #410, Veldrina is high level for that and some High priests were spamming 7th level spells as well. So I think level 13 is not that uncommon, level 17 is.
To be fair, I thought it was implied Vel would be casting from a scroll, but fair point. It's entriely possible there are THREE clerics in the world even close to epic level: Redcloak, Durkon, and Hilgyia.


Actually, the first idea that came to V before the appearence of the fiends, was to ask Q to teleport to A's tower, to ask A's help.
And V was thinking clearly enough to realize that, aside killing Q, the paladins and Durkon, instead in opposition of A, had no mean to stop the dragon, since they couldn't ever reach them.

Moreover V never apparently doubted that A could dispatch the ABD (which, btw in itself, requires at least disnjunction, for the Anti Magic Field, and a lot of spellpower after that), he only choose the deal because he didn't want to ask for A's help.

Again, finally, the fact that the image of A dispatching the ABD was a gag is known because the author pointed that out, not because the story.

I mean, it's made pretty obvious that V wasn't thinking very clearly. They've been without sleep for, what, several days? I think Aandrius probably COULD have killed the dragon, but I highly doubt he was epic-level (illustrating him killing it without looking up was pretty clearly a gag, referencing another imagine spot showing doing the same to Qarr). Again, this is a world where 10th level spellcasters are pretty rare to start off with. I'd probably place, again, around V's current level.

[brian 333]

Making new, (and improved,) gates is exactly Thor's plan.

What is the source of the Epic level spellcaster requirement? It seems that some posters are very convinced this is so, but Thor didn't say, "Get an epic divine and an epic arcane caster then get Redcloak to cast a ninth level spell." Thor seems to think they already have everything they need except the purple quiddity.

[dancrilis]

Making new, (and improved,) gates is exactly Thor's plan.

What is the source of the Epic level spellcaster requirement? It seems that some posters are very convinced this is so, but Thor didn't say, "Get an epic divine and an epic arcane caster then get Redcloak to cast a ninth level spell." Thor seems to think they already have everything they need except the purple quiddity.

Thor's plan is to seal/close the rifts not build new Gates.

For the Epic Level comments:

Redcloak mentions that he and Xykon could build a gate if they were both Epic level.

[denthor]

Oh I think I am a sick twisted thinking man.

The ritual to move the snarl being studied by our undead loving friend (now long passed). Was only 1/2 of the ritual.

The other 1/2 devine. In the knowledge of red cloak.

What if the Dark One got it confused. Druid and cleric magic is similar both devine caster type.

What if the ritual is to create a gate not move the snarl?

I feel this is a crazy enough theory to be posted on this forum.

[Goblin_Priest]

Maybe after enough grinding.

[brian 333]

Thor's plan is to seal/close the rifts not build new Gates.

For the Epic Level comments:

Redcloak mentions that he and Xykon could build a gate if they were both Epic level.


Then sealing the rifts is easier than building a gate?

Then let's do that one.

[Silly Name]

Moreover V never apparently doubted that A could dispatch the ABD (which, btw in itself, requires at least disnjunction, for the Anti Magic Field, and a lot of spellpower after that), he only choose the deal because he didn't want to ask for A's help.


None of this necessitates Aarindarius to be Epic level. Assuming V is sure they can cast 9th-level spells, that puts A at minimum 17th level. Still a long way off from 21st and beyond.

[Quartz]

None of this necessitates Aarindarius to be Epic level. Assuming V is sure they can cast 9th-level spells, that puts A at minimum 17th level. Still a long way off from 21st and beyond.

We don't have any indication of his actual level, do we? V left him when he was what, 6th level? So Aarindarius might only be 10th level.

[dancrilis]

Then sealing the rifts is easier than building a gate?

Then let's do that one.

Thor's plan to close the rifts requires The Dark One's involvement - hense the Durkon quest with Redcloak.

A standard seal is effectively an unlocked door - the gate is then the lock on the door.

As a theory it is reasonable that the reason that the Snarl is not reaching out and killing people is because the seal is still in place (which Laurin broke in the western continent), Gobbotopia might be very lucky that Redcloak didn't throw in those humans.

[Shadowknight12]

We don't have any indication of his actual level, do we? V left him when he was what, 6th level? So Aarindarius might only be 10th level.

It does necessitate that Aarindarius be strong enough to defeat a powerful, spellcasting dragon with an antimagic field, since that is the point of the IFCC pointing out that V does have a choice.

[danielxcutter]

It does necessitate that Aarindarius be strong enough to defeat a powerful, spellcasting dragon with an antimagic field, since that is the point of the IFCC pointing out that V does have a choice.

I think Rich said that Aarindarius one-shotting the ABD was an exaggeration(though he also said V thought Aarindarius would win).

As for the rift thing, maybe using four quiddities makes the ritual easier. And Thor said “we can handle the rest”; that implies that the gods might be the ones doing the sealing.

[woweedd]

It does necessitate that Aarindarius be strong enough to defeat a powerful, spellcasting dragon with an antimagic field, since that is the point of the IFCC pointing out that V does have a choice.

V wasn't entirely thinking sensibly. But, ya know what, fine: Let's say A is level 21. Low epic, powerful enough to take an ANcient Black Dragon without much issue. You'd still need a divine caster, and there is literally not a SINGLE epic-level divine caster, in the world, so far as we know.

[Shadowknight12]

V wasn't entirely thinking sensibly. But, ya know what, fine: Let's say A is level 21. Low epic, powerful enough to take an ANcient Black Dragon without much issue. You'd still need a divine caster, and there is literally not a SINGLE epic-level divine caster, in the world, so far as we know.

This seems to be the case, since the OOTS theorizes Redcloak might be the only cleric they know capable of casting 9th-level cleric spells.

We know the Godsmoot is made up of high level clerics and druids, since they need to be in order to cast Summon Proxy, but that doesn't mean Epic. For all we know, Summon Proxy could be 7th or 8th level (or even 9th, but these might be individuals the OOTS just isn't familiar with).

[sihnfahl]

And Thor said “we can handle the rest”; that implies that the gods might be the ones doing the sealing.
Well, yes. It requires actually working with the reality that they created themselves. So the casters make the 'stitches', and the gods do the stitching.

[danielxcutter]

Well, yes. It requires actually working with the reality that they created themselves. So the casters make the 'stitches', and the gods do the stitching.

I think using more quiddities makes it easier. If a 9th-level divine spell slot from one of TDO's clerics is enough for the divine aspect instead of an epic spellcaster, then it probably is.

[sihnfahl]

I think using more quiddities makes it easier. If a 9th-level divine spell slot from one of TDO's clerics is enough for the divine aspect instead of an epic spellcaster, then it probably is.
That wasn't the point of using the 4 quiddities, IIRC.

It was because normally they'd only be able to use 3, which the 4 quiddity snarl could tear through, given time. TDO's purple quiddity isn't something the snarl would be able to 'cut' through.

Edit: Yep. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)

[danielxcutter]

That wasn't the point of using the 4 quiddities, IIRC.

It was because normally they'd only be able to use 3, which the 4 quiddity snarl could tear through, given time. TDO's purple quiddity isn't something the snarl would be able to 'cut' through.

Edit: Yep. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)

No I get that, but normally the ritual to make a Gate needs an epic arcanist and an epic divine caster(otherwise Team Evil would have made another when Lirian's went boom). It sounds like the gods don't need that if they have some quiddity from TDO though.

[woweedd]

No I get that, but normally the ritual to make a Gate needs an epic arcanist and an epic divine caster(otherwise Team Evil would have made another when Lirian's went boom). It sounds like the gods don't need that if they have some quiddity from TDO though.
Point of order: No they wouldn't. Redcloak STILL isn't epic, he certainly wasn't then.

This seems to be the case, since the OOTS theorizes Redcloak might be the only cleric they know capable of casting 9th-level cleric spells.

We know the Godsmoot is made up of high level clerics and druids, since they need to be in order to cast Summon Proxy, but that doesn't mean Epic. For all we know, Summon Proxy could be 7th or 8th level (or even 9th, but these might be individuals the OOTS just isn't familiar with).

We know Durkon can cast it (or, at least, evil Durkon), which would imply it's not 9th level.

[sihnfahl]

No I get that, but normally the ritual to make a Gate needs an epic arcanist and an epic divine caster(otherwise Team Evil would have made another when Lirian's went boom). It sounds like the gods don't need that if they have some quiddity from TDO though.
Or the suggestion is that instead of doing the expected part of the ritual with Xykon, he changes the intent.

Xykon, after all, doesn't know exactly what the divine part of the spell does. And RC killed to keep that secret.

[brian 333]

I'm still not convinced that an Epic spellcaster is needed to seal a rift. Redcloak thought so, but he has certainly never tried, and, hey, there were four other gates to use at the time, so why bother?

Were the Scribblers epic before they started? Or was the quest to seal the rifts the adventure that got them to epic levels?

But assume Redcloak is right and the epic requirement is a real limit. Maybe Thor is certain that by the time they deal with Xykon and make Redcloak cooperate the OotS will be epic and completely capable of doing the deed. Who knows how many EXP are between them and their goal?

[Squire Doodad]

I'm still not convinced that an Epic spellcaster is needed to seal a rift. Redcloak thought so, but he has certainly never tried, and, hey, there were four other gates to use at the time, so why bother?

Were the Scribblers epic before they started? Or was the quest to seal the rifts the adventure that got them to epic levels?

But assume Redcloak is right and the epic requirement is a real limit. Maybe Thor is certain that by the time they deal with Xykon and make Redcloak cooperate the OotS will be epic and completely capable of doing the deed. Who knows how many EXP are between them and their goal?

Well, Monster Hollow is very EXP rich, so if they beat up Xykon and have Reddie on their side, Durkon could powerlevel his way to Epic in a few months, probably. Even better, if one of the High Priests is high level, dropping some sendings and teleports after the Godsmoot gets fixed could go ahead and save them some time (Durkon is only level 13 so it'd take a bit longer).

[Edhelras]

I'm not convinced that high- or epic level spellcasters are that rare in the OOTS-verse:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html

Although they might be hard to find, or even on other planes. It seems unlikely that OOTS, Team Evil, Lirian &Co, should be the only high-levels in the wide world. There are si many parts of the world we haven't seen yet. Doesn't mean that those epics are easy to come by, or that they're willing to participate, or can be trusted in handling the rifts.

[danielxcutter]

I'm not convinced that high- or epic level spellcasters are that rare in the OOTS-verse:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html

Although they might be hard to find, or even on other planes. It seems unlikely that OOTS, Team Evil, Lirian &Co, should be the only high-levels in the wide world. There are si many parts of the world we haven't seen yet. Doesn't mean that those epics are easy to come by, or that they're willing to participate, or can be trusted in handling the rifts.

That’s three over the course of like at least two millennia. That’s hardly common and V still got their ass pasted.

[Peelee]

It does necessitate that Aarindarius be strong enough to defeat a powerful, spellcasting dragon with an antimagic field, since that is the point of the IFCC pointing out that V does have a choice.

V didn't really have a choice; the plan they suggested would not have worked. V didn't need to have a choice, they only needed to believe they had a choice.

[arimareiji]

V didn't really have a choice; the plan they suggested would not have worked. V didn't need to have a choice, they only needed to believe they had a choice.
Weird coincidence, I was just looking at that one. Color me extremely skeptical that Qarr would actually be compelled to get himself killed in order to deliver V's head for Resurrection. Or that such a daisy chain of if-thens could be counted on as a sure thing, when V says they must not fail (understandably).

But also: The IFCC say not to worry about the casting time*, since the dwarf has a scroll he's been saving for such an occasion. But even assuming the IFCC are telling the truth, their plan requires both Resurrection and Sending.
* - Immediately after talking about Sending, which V would know takes ten minutes. A couple dozen strips later, V reveals not knowing that the Resurrection Durkon is casting takes ten minutes (panel 4) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html).

[danielxcutter]

Weird coincidence, I was just looking at that one. Color me extremely skeptical that Qarr would actually be compelled to get himself killed in order to deliver V's head for Resurrection. Or that such a daisy chain of if-thens could be counted on as a sure thing, when V says they must not fail (understandably).

But also: The IFCC say not to worry about the casting time*, since the dwarf has a scroll he's been saving for such an occasion. But even assuming the IFCC are telling the truth, their plan requires both Resurrection and Sending.
* - Immediately after talking about Sending, which V would know takes ten minutes. A couple dozen strips later, V reveals not knowing that the Resurrection Durkon is casting takes ten minutes (panel 4) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html).

That whole part was so they could say V didn't take it under duress, I think. Of course, while V's flaws did play a large part it's also pretty obvious that they're taking advantage of V's trance deprivation and general situation. I'm pretty sure that'd be illegal in most mortal courts.

Honestly I really do hope that the IFCC's schemes backfire spectacularly. Foiling their current scheme would obviously be desirable, but I don't think it'd feel satisfying for us, the readers, if they just shrugged and moved onto something else.

[Mike Havran]

Weird coincidence, I was just looking at that one. Color me extremely skeptical that Qarr would actually be compelled to get himself killed in order to deliver V's head for Resurrection. Or that such a daisy chain of if-thens could be counted on as a sure thing, when V says they must not fail (understandably).
Qarr's willingness is the least concern here, I think. If he just popped in, dropped V's head somewhere on the ship and bolted, chances of him being killed are basically non-existent.

The main problem with V's alternative was that Durkon had already left the ship and was currently somewhere above the ocean, air walking to Greysky.

But who cares if the alternative was sound or not. V was convinced it was and had to discard V's delusion about taking the power for noble reasons. That was the point of it and it worked.

[arimareiji]

That whole part was so they could say V didn't take it under duress, I think. Of course, while V's flaws did play a large part it's also pretty obvious that they're taking advantage of V's trance deprivation and general situation. I'm pretty sure that'd be illegal in most mortal courts.

Honestly I really do hope that the IFCC's schemes backfire spectacularly. Foiling their current scheme would obviously be desirable, but I don't think it'd feel satisfying for us, the readers, if they just shrugged and moved onto something else.

I'm dreadfully curious what their angle could be, myself. Like V, I'm baffled what they plan to gain* -- but I'm sure they'd have the same response for me that they had for V (903:2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html)).

* - Crack-headed thought that just occurred: Unless somehow they're actually agents/worshipers/admirers/whatever of the Snarl. We know that even the gods don't have the whole picture†. And the IFCC's goals†† seem weirdly in tune with the Snarl's origin (and psyche, if it has one).

† - 1150:6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html) Thor "Wait, what did he mean about a planet inside the rifts?"

Odin "?"
†† - 668:6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) "We want conflict."

"Destructive unnecessary conflict."


Qarr's willingness is the least concern here, I think. If he just popped in, dropped V's head somewhere on the ship and bolted, chances of him being killed are basically non-existent.

The main problem with V's alternative was that Durkon had already left the ship and was currently somewhere above the ocean, air walking to Greysky.

But who cares if the alternative was sound or not. V was convinced it was and had to discard V's delusion about taking the power for noble reasons. That was the point of it and it worked.
Ah! Thank you, I figured there was probably a more solid reason but couldn't think of one.

I wonder, though, whether their forcing V to discard his delusion was really in their best interest. (I have no reason to doubt they thought so, but humans can do really horrific things when their delusions of nobility remain unpunctured. I doubt elves are much different.)

[Mike Havran]

I'm dreadfully curious what their angle could be, myself. Like V, I'm baffled what they plan to gain* -- but I'm sure they'd have the same response for me that they had for V (903:2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html)).

* - Crack-headed thought that just occurred: Unless somehow they're actually agents/worshipers/admirers/whatever of the Snarl. We know that even the gods don't have the whole picture†. And the IFCC's goals†† seem weirdly in tune with the Snarl's origin (and psyche, if it has one).
The IFCC apparently learned about the Gates from Sabine (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html), so I think it's unlikely they are connected to Snarl. I believe they don't have a specific target in mind, just a general increase of Evil influence in the world (they seemed quite OK (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) with the idea of Hel winning her plot)



I wonder, though, whether their forcing V to discard his delusion was really in their best interest. (I have no reason to doubt they thought so, but humans can do really horrific things when their delusions of nobility remain unpunctured. I doubt elves are much different.)Yep, I also wonder about that. I guess they have some Faustian research to back their move up, so I defer to their experience with corrupting mortals :smalltongue:

[arimareiji]

The IFCC apparently learned about the Gates from Sabine (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html), so I think it's unlikely they are connected to Snarl. I believe they don't have a specific target in mind, just a general increase of Evil influence in the world (they seemed quite OK (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) with the idea of Hel winning her plot)
Thank you, there are enough potential unexpected developments already without me inventing a bunch to worry about (that have already been eliminated). (^_~)


Yep, I also wonder about that. I guess they have some Faustian research to back their move up, so I defer to their experience with corrupting mortals :smalltongue:
Indeed. And the more I thought about it after my post, the more I realized that 1) it might not be in their long-term best interest wrt V, but 2) pushing V into desperation and feeling like they had nothing left to lose was well in keeping with their immediate goal at the time.

[Shadowknight12]

V didn't really have a choice; the plan they suggested would not have worked. V didn't need to have a choice, they only needed to believe they had a choice.

If V didn't have a choice, then that severely undermines the entire point of V's decision to accept the bargain, and also Inkyrius's speech to V after the rescue. I don't think The Giant would have created a story where we're told a character's climactic decision is incredibly important and then we're supposed to realize that no, actually, not really, that was just what the character thought at the time.

[hroþila]

If V didn't had a choice, then that severely undermines the entire point of V's decision to accept the bargain, and also Inkyrius's speech to V after the rescue. I don't think The Giant would have created a story where we're told a character's climactic decision is incredibly important and then we're supposed to realize that no, actually, not really, that was just what the character thought at the time.
I don't think it matters. V only needed to believe they have a choice for a split second, just long enough to realize they didn't actually want a way out, they actually wanted that ultimate arcane power. Which is why they didn't let go when Inkyrius asked them to.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think it matters. V only needed to believe they have a choice for a split second, just long enough to realize they didn't actually want a way out, they actually wanted that ultimate arcane power. Which is why they didn't let go when Inkyrius asked them to.

I suppose that might have been the case for V, but it kinda feels a bit undercut when it's not only their family they had to worry about. Y'know, like the other half of the Order.

Would V have let the splices go right if they'd defeated Xykon? If they knew about the true cost I suspect they'd still have tried to do that, but they'd probably drop it soon afterwards.

[Peelee]

If V didn't have a choice, then that severely undermines the entire point of V's decision to accept the bargain, and also Inkyrius's speech to V after the rescue. I don't think The Giant would have created a story where we're told a character's climactic decision is incredibly important and then we're supposed to realize that no, actually, not really, that was just what the character thought at the time.

No it doesn't. Again, all that matters is that V believed they had a choice. Even if they found out later that they didn't, that doesn't invalidate what happened - that, when faced with what they thought was a choice, V chose wrong.

For example, let's say A and B are in a relationship. B chooses to cheat on A with C. However, V doesn't exist, and was just A all along. Even though there was no viable way in reality for B to cheat, B did not know that and B still chose to cheat.

It doesn't matter if the alternate choice would have worked (and, again, it would not. Durkon was not on the boat). The fiends did not need to present a viable alternative. All the fiends needed to do was prove to V that V couldn't claim noble intentions, which they succeeded in.

[dancrilis]

For example, let's say A and B are in a relationship. B chooses to cheat on A with C. However, V doesn't exist, and was just A all along. Even though there was no viable way in reality for B to cheat, B did not know that and B still chose to cheat.


V=C I take it.

[arimareiji]

V=C I take it.
Probably literally and functionally correct... but just to be pedantic, allegorically I think V is supposed to be B. (^_~)b

Count me as being glad Vaarsuvius is the only one we routinely represent with a letter, otherwise these convos would get really confusing really fast. (^_^)

[ziproot]

Probably literally and functionally correct... but just to be pedantic, allegorically I think V is supposed to be B. (^_~)b

Count me as being glad Vaarsuvius is the only one we routinely represent with a letter, otherwise these convos would get really confusing really fast. (^_^)

"Allegorically I think [Vaarsuvius] is supposed to be [Belkar]" :smallbiggrin:

[arimareiji]

"Allegorically I think [Vaarsuvius] is supposed to be [Belkar]" :smallbiggrin:

Indeed. (^_~)b

It got much worse in the "Poll: V or I?" thread... without thinking about it, I used "I" both as a first-person pronoun and an appellation for Inkyrius in the same sentence without even realizing it. (>_<)

[Robots]

The story isn't about creating a new gate. It's never been about that.