Big creatures and AoO.

[An Enemy Spy]

So with enemies that are Large or bigger, the only way to get into melee with them is to move through their area of reach. Is there a way to do this safely or will the first player to attack always have to suck up an Attack of Opportunity?

[exelsisxax]

going first so the monster is flat-footed.

[Eldonauran]

A simple Tumble check will do it for you.

[Telonius]

If you want to get fancy, an Anklet of Translocation (or a Dimension Hop spell) will let you do it.

The Underfoot Combat feat allows you to move into a space occupied by a bigger enemy without provoking, but unfortunately doesn't do anything to spaces the bigger foe merely threatens.

An alternate strategy is to have an ability where it's a good thing when you are attacked or take damage; Crusader or Robilar's Gambit would be examples of that.

[Psyren]

A simple Tumble check will do it for you.

This (or Acrobatics if you're playing PF.) The flat-footed suggestion works well also if you have decent initiative.

[Jay R]

Come in invisibly. You will be visible, and subject to attack, after your first attack, but not before.

Mirror Image. He might choose the right one to use its AoO on, but it's not likely.

[zlefin]

Taking a 5-foot step action ignores the AoO; but since it can't be used with other movement it won't help that much. Still, if they walk into 10' range to attack you, then you can 5 foot step and retaliate safely.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I had a DM who forbade me from taking AoOs if an enemy had any elevation above the ground at all, because we were using a 2d map. So you could try giving flight a chance and hope for the best.

Of course, if your DM isn't an idiot...

At higher levels, a phase cloak (MoI, turn ethereal when moving more than 5') would let you go ethereal to reach enemies. Note that overcoming DR/magic doesn't let you hit ethereal or incorporeal things.

[Psyren]

I had a DM who forbade me from taking AoOs if an enemy had any elevation above the ground at all, because we were using a 2d map. So you could try giving flight a chance and hope for the best.

Of course, if your DM isn't an idiot...

It's funny because this is also how WoW works, due to an engine limitation. There are some truly massive monsters out in the world (like this guy (https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Thrym)) and you can fly through their heads, torsos or even knees with impunity because you aren't touching the ground.

[Darg]

Spring attack should get a mention here. Of course, people think it's a worthless feat and feat line even though the first two feats give you +5 AC in the exact situation described. Fighting defensively can add an extra +2 and using a shield as you close in can increase your AC or give you total cover which prevents AoOs entirely.

And remember, tumble can't be used if your speed is reduced from armor or carried items.

Also, creatures don't have to use their AoO on the first person charging in. That's up to the DM and the intelligence of the creature.

[RexDart]

Lightfoot (Spell Compendium p. 132) is a great spell for this, though only available to Assassin and Ranger classes as written. My DM also put it on the Duskblade spell list.

[Clementx]

Rush the monster all in the same round. Send a shielded and armored character/disposable minion first, and everyone else delay actions to go after it wastes its one AoO. Combat Reflexes isn't that common in published monsters, and Dex penalties from size mean even fewer qualify.

[tyckspoon]

..I'm the first to mention these options? Really?


Get increased Reach yourself, whether by being Large or larger (Enlarge Person, other shapechanging abilities/spells, naturally Large races), just using a Reach weapon, or the more esoteric means of getting extended reach from feats or class abilities.

[bean illus]

..I'm the first to mention these options? Really?

Get increased Reach yourself, whether by being Large or larger (Enlarge Person, other shapechanging abilities/spells, naturally Large races), just using a Reach weapon, or the more esoteric means of getting extended reach from feats or class abilities.

I was going to say "that's why all melee characters should carry an Enlarge potion, and a reach weapon.

There's also spells, for blinded, dazed, etc.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I was going to say "that's why all melee characters should carry an Enlarge potion, and a reach weapon.

There's also spells, for blinded, dazed, etc.Alchemical items, as well. Eggshell grenades, anyone? Dust of sneezing and choking for a no-save-just-disable?

Also, anything that gives you full concealment will work, as well. No AoOs on anyone with 50% concealment miss chance.

[gijoemike]

Very surprised this hasn't been mentioned.

If the mover has a level of Monk they can use the Training dummy to make a 5ft movement action actually be 10 ft of movement. I have always played that as 10ft that ignore all AoO as though it was only a 5" step. There is a LOT of circumstance to that but it should be mentioned.

Do others play where the 10" step does provoke?


Also doesn't 1/2 cover also prevent an Aoo? so approaching a monster from around a nearby corner should do the trick.

[Darg]

Also, anything that gives you full concealment will work, as well. No AoOs on anyone with 50% concealment miss chance.

Total concealment confers 50% miss chance, but 50% miss chance is not total concealment.


Also doesn't 1/2 cover also prevent an Aoo? so approaching a monster from around a nearby corner should do the trick.

Only total cover prevents AoOs. The reason given is that you don't have line of effect, which prevents attacks. Approaching behind a tower shield does this. In 3.5 this doesn't even cost an action to use, but you can't make attacks while using this cover. Take a move behind your shield, then come out of cover to swing. Part of the reason why I don't understand why people don't like tower shields. They're great tactical advantage. Of course, using the pathfinder or FAQ change makes them not so good.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Total concealment confers 50% miss chance, but 50% miss chance is not total concealment.

Only total cover prevents AoOs. The reason given is that you don't have line of effect, which prevents attacks. Approaching behind a tower shield does this. In 3.5 this doesn't even cost an action to use, but you can't make attacks while using this cover. Take a move behind your shield, then come out of cover to swing. Part of the reason why I don't understand why people don't like tower shields. They're great tactical advantage. Of course, using the pathfinder or FAQ change makes them not so good.Ahem:


Total Concealment
If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.Whitetext

[Darg]

Ahem:

What? Your quote isn't disagreeing with me. 50% concealment does not grant total concealment. I wasn't making an argument against total concealment not allowing AoO's. The other part was saying that 1/2 cover isn't total cover which is what you need to not be attacked.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What? Your quote isn't disagreeing with me. 50% concealment does not grant total concealment. I wasn't making an argument against total concealment not allowing AoO's. The other part was saying that 1/2 cover isn't total cover which is what you need to not be attacked.And I said: "Also, anything that gives you full concealment will work, as well. No AoOs on anyone with 50% concealment miss chance."

So if the concealment miss chance is 50% (that is, full concealment) no AoOs for them.

[loky1109]

And I said: "Also, anything that gives you full concealment will work, as well. No AoOs on anyone with 50% concealment miss chance."

So if the concealment miss chance is 50% (that is, full concealment) no AoOs for them.


50% miss chance maybe not only by full concealment. This is the point. Full concealment does, 50% miss chance not exactly.

[Zombimode]

Only total cover prevents AoOs. The reason given is that you don't have line of effect, which prevents attacks.

Actually, normal Cover is enough to block AoOs:


Cover and Attacks of Opportunity
You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover

[Gruftzwerg]

Taking a 5-foot step action ignores the AoO; but since it can't be used with other movement it won't help that much. Still, if they walk into 10' range to attack you, then you can 5 foot step and retaliate safely.

There is a solution to everything somehow..^^

1. best option is as mentioned tumble to move in safely

2. If you loose Initiative, you just wait for the enemy to move in. Unless he has more than 10ft reach, you can do a 5ft step to move in and make a full attack.

3. If you win Initiative, you can delay you action until the enemy is in 10ft reach. Then you use your 5ft step and full attack before the enemy gets his attacks.

Enemies with more than 10ft reach require either tumble or teleport to move in safely.

[Darg]

Actually, normal Cover is enough to block AoOs:



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover

Big creatures are hard to get cover against when going into melee. Sure there are a few instances where you could theoretically have cover but the large reach of sizeable creatures makes those situations extremely unlikely for every threatened square you move through.

[Khedrac]

3. If you win Initiative, you can delay you action until the enemy is in 10ft reach. Then you use your 5ft step and full attack before the enemy gets his attacks.
Unfortunately no, you cannot come out of "Delay" in the middle of an opponent's turn - the best you can do here is ready a 5' step plus attack and only take a single attack.

(Of course, you can delay until after the enemy's attack to get your full attack.)

[Gruftzwerg]

Unfortunately no, you cannot come out of "Delay" in the middle of an opponent's turn - the best you can do here is ready a 5' step plus attack and only take a single attack.

(Of course, you can delay until after the enemy's attack to get your full attack.)

I mixed those two up. Thx for pointing my error out ;)
But, yeah, you can ready the 5ft step and attack.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Have you considered being tough enough to not care? Any source of quick, reliable self healing or temp hp and/ or a good dr value can make it just not matter if the baddie hits you on the way in. A crusader of sufficient level can do all of the above, as can a well built paladin or even a fighter.

A law incarnate (Magic of Incarnum) is also an incarnation of an abrahms tank; hits decently hard but not very often and good luck doing damage that matters to him at all. I'll elaborate if you'd like, since that class is not a commonly used one.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Have you considered being tough enough to not care? Any source of quick, reliable self healing or temp hp and/ or a good dr value can make it just not matter if the baddie hits you on the way in. A crusader of sufficient level can do all of the above, as can a well built paladin or even a fighter.

A law incarnate (Magic of Incarnum) is also an incarnation of an abrahms tank; hits decently hard but not very often and good luck doing damage that matters to him at all. I'll elaborate if you'd like, since that class is not a commonly used one.Unfortunately, saves vs massive damage are a thing that happens, and no matter how high your Fort save, nat 1s are also a thing that happens.

[Darg]

Unfortunately, saves vs massive damage are a thing that happens, and no matter how high your Fort save, nat 1s are also a thing that happens.

Dahlver nar

1 level of binder + Improved Binding feat + binding Dahlver Nar = Shield self ability. Reduce all damage by half. You can even use it against your enemy if within 30ft of you for a will save. If they massive damage through that, they just massive damaged themselves too. Add on Shield Other and you only take 25% damage that can be reduced by damage reduction/resistance. If you are one of the folks that think half damage is (1 - .5 = .5) then you take 0 damage as 1 - .5 - .5 = 0.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dahlver nar

1 level of binder + Improved Binding feat + binding Dahlver Nar = Shield self ability. Reduce all damage by half. You can even use it against your enemy if within 30ft of you for a will save. If they massive damage through that, they just massive damaged themselves too. Add on Shield Other and you only take 25% damage that can be reduced by damage reduction/resistance. If you are one of the folks that think half damage is (1 - .5 = .5) then you take 0 damage as 1 - .5 - .5 = 0.Well, I mean, that's great for binders that want to bind Dahlver Nar, but what about the 99.999% of builds that don't want to do that?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unfortunately, saves vs massive damage are a thing that happens, and no matter how high your Fort save, nat 1s are also a thing that happens.

That's only sort of true. Massive damage instances are pretty rare to begin with except from PC class enemies of a certain degree of optimization. Natural 1s in the context of massive damage are far less of a concern than they are with virtually any other thing that provokes one because of that relative rarity.

[Darg]

Well, I mean, that's great for binders that want to bind Dahlver Nar, but what about the 99.999% of builds that don't want to do that?

The point was being tough. I also mentioned that shield other is an option to reduce damage. There is always dodge and mobility, adds a flat +5 dodge AC against the target you are trying to avoid the AoO from. It's not like massive damage from an AoO is all that common except on criticals.