Built for Saves and Surviving

[da newt]

I'm looking at building a very sturdy PC (both damage and control resistant) - someone who can survive most anything and keep in the fight.

Which Race has the best saving throws benefit?

Yuan Ti: ADV vs spells and magical effects
Satyr: ADV vs spells and magical effect, fey (not humanoid)
Vedalken: ADV on all INT, WIS, CHA saves

Other?

What class/subclass?

I'd think Vedalken ADV on INT, WIS, CHA w/ BearBarb for ST & CON save proff + ADV on DEX + resist all but psychic, then add Ancients Pali Aura would be pretty crazy.

But what is better / more survivable from level 1 on up?

[OldTrees1]

Paladin. Probably Paladin of Ancients. Probably with Inspiring Leader. The +5 to everyone's saves decreases the chance you go down and decreases the chance of a TPK.

[RogueJK]

BearBarb for ST & CON save proff + ADV on DEX + resist all but psychic, then add Ancients Pali Aura would be pretty crazy.

The Resistance to non-psychic damage from Bearbarian doesn't stack with Resistance to damage from spells from Ancients Paladin aura. (Resistance is Resistance... You don't get "Double Resistance" for 1/4 damage. Much like you don't get "Double Advantage" if you have Advantage from two sources.)

So adding on the Ancients Paladin aura would only help you against Psychic damage from spells while Raging, or against all damage from spells when you aren't Raging.

I'd stick with just Bear Totem Barbarian, or just Ancients Paladin. Of the two, the Ancients Paladin with a high CHA would be better at saving throws specifically, if that's your goal as stated.

[strangebloke]

Gnome Bear Barbarian. Advantage on saves against all spells, Resistance to all damage while raging, advantage on DEX saves along with CON and STR. Naturally you gave him good DEX, CON, and WIS rather than bothering with silly things like STR. Carrying a shield, predictably, and probably also picked up shield master for the lulz.

Tiefling Abjurer with Fiendish Constitution. Resist poison, cold, necrotic, fire... counterspell any magic that comes your way. Take Inspiring Leader to boost your HP every short rest on top of your significant ward. Shield. Absorb Elements.

Kensai Monk. Get good in all saves eventually and stack up to 22 AC with Agile Parry or whatever its called and then dodge.

Eldritch Knight. Defense Style to get 21 AC before magic, use all your slots to cast shield and absorb elements.

Play a Moon Druid who only fights in animal form and has amazing mental stats.... then multiclass into bearbarian after level three to resist everything while have stats that are all really high and also having limitless HP.

[Citadel97501]

Yuanti + Ancient Paladin might be one of the toughest things in the game. High saves, advantage vs spells & magical effects, resistance to spell damage, immune to poison and the poison status. This along with a good armor save and maybe even Heavy Armor Mastery will definitely be one of the toughest things I can think of. If you can work in a decent Constitution for the extra health then this character should be nearly indestructible but you will likely be ignored unless you take a method to increase your offense & stickiness.

After that the only thing even close could be a Tiefling + Ancient Paladin with the feat that gives them more elemental resistances and Heavy Armor Mastery. Which to be honest I think is around 95% of the toughness that the Yuanti has. I think it would likely break down to which is more prevalent in your games, poison or non-magical elemental damage such as from Dragons.

[Pyrophilios]

Satyr Devotion Paladin 6/Tome Dao Genielock 6/ Clockwork Sorcerer 8 w/ Shield Master, Spell Sniper, War Caster

Coffee Lock yourself a bunch of spell slots a spell point fuel, get airborn far enough away from the enemies and eldritch snipe them with action and bonus action
If you find yourself unavoidable in melee use Shilleagh, get your Ward up and smite yourself out from there.

The best defense is an overwhelming offence.

[stoutstien]

A ton of different ways to do this so it comes down to how much management you want to deal with and if personal mitigation is worth more than party wide options.

A straight forward option is something like a kalashtar bear barbarian/fighter. Good AC, HP, solid saves, and damage.

[MrCharlie]

I'm looking at building a very sturdy PC (both damage and control resistant) - someone who can survive most anything and keep in the fight.

Which Race has the best saving throws benefit?

Yuan Ti: ADV vs spells and magical effects
Satyr: ADV vs spells and magical effect, fey (not humanoid)
Vedalken: ADV on all INT, WIS, CHA saves

Other?

What class/subclass?

I'd think Vedalken ADV on INT, WIS, CHA w/ BearBarb for ST & CON save proff + ADV on DEX + resist all but psychic, then add Ancients Pali Aura would be pretty crazy.

But what is better / more survivable from level 1 on up?
Armorer Artificer and Oath of Ancients Paladin are similarly tied. I favor artificer overall though.

For one, an Armorer is going to very reliably have ~20 AC. All artificers are going to sit around there, probably by level 6. A battlesmith is technically higher due to shield spell, but without eating a reaction the armorer is going to be higher, and can quite easily sit at a comfortable 24 AC. Hit dice wise a d8 versus a D10 is a minor distinction. Artificers also have the distinction of being one of the few classes which can effectively wield a shield and use ranged weapons.

Artificers are also highly SAD, and can thus diversify their attributes enough to have +1's in all the major saves from attributes. All you really need is a 16 INT and probably a 16 or 14 CON.

Rock gnome or Vedalkin artificer is thus an obvious choice for a tough class. Once you get flash of genius you have great saves, even if they are somewhat limited in uses per day. Combined with two different infusions offering +1 to saves (Cloak and ring of protection), and they have even better saving throws. They also excellent mobility, good aggro control, a few spells which improve their own survivability greatly like Haste, Aid, and absorb elements, and excellent concentration saves (probably the best in the game) which is what you want on a tanky Gish.

Paladins are very similar, but the main difference is that while paladins may eventually have better saves because they get flash of genius constantly and they may find a cloak/ring of protection or similar item, they are much more highly MAD. Artificers actually beat paladins on HP with most builds as such (they effectively have +2 to +4 CON if a Paladin wants to maximize charisma). Artificers also have higher AC, and much more reliable aggro, than a Paladin.

Also, a level 20 artificer has some of the best saves in the game, if not simply the best. They can have a +8 bonus to all saves, on top of any other bonuses, from a cloak+ring of protection+Soul of artifice. Add in flash of genius and that's a +13 before you add in proficiency and any attributes. Given that the highest save DCs in the game are DC 27 (that aren't just completely arbitrary) that level of bonus is actually highly relevant when trying to tank something like Tiamat.

A good all-in Rock Gnome artificer tank might look something like-

Attributes 8-12-14-16-14-12 in Str-Dex-Con-Int-Wis-Cha order. We could get a 16 CON, but an amulet of health will bump it later.

Feats: +2 INT at level 4 and 8, then your choice of Sentinel (If you want to guarantee aggro), Tough (more HP), Lucky (because lucky), resilient DEX/WIS (for when a +13 isn't enough).

Minimum gear: Full plate armor (I recommend attempting to fabricate it at level 13 if you can't find it before then), a shield, a cloak, two rings, an amulet (as targets for infusions). I recommend a backup dagger in case you enter an antimagic zone or something screwy.

Usual infusions-Enhanced defense, enhanced offense, repulsion shield, replicate magic items [Winged boots, Cloak of protection, Amulet of Health, Ring of protection, Ring of Free Action].

(in general order of priority and order or acquirement)

(if you want to forgo an infusion, you can very likely find a better shield than your repulsion shield, and either prepare a belt of hill giant strength to shore up your STR saves or prepare something like a mind sharpener or such to improve your concentration saves or give you resistance to a damage type).

Relevant Level 20 stats (note that this build spikes at levels 4, 6, 9, 10, 14)
HP: 183 to 223 (tough feat)
Temp HP: 20, 6 times a day.

Total AC-25, assuming you have no magical shield. With a better shield, AC 26 to 27 is possible.

Total generic saving throw bonus-+8. +13 as a reaction.

Advantages-INT, WIS, CHA against magic.

Immunities: magical movement speed reduction, restraint, paralysis.

Notable spells can provide:
Advantage to DEX saves, +2 AC (Haste)
Resistance to one of acid/cold/fire/lightning/thunder (Absorb elements, Protection from energy)
Resistance to Psychic damage and advantage on non-magical INT/Wis/Cha saves (intellect fortress)
Resistance to non-magical bludgeoning/piercing/slashing (Stoneskin)
Resistance to one of Fire/Cold and retribution Fire/Cold damage (Fire shield)
Disadvantage on attacks (Blur, Greater Invisibility),
Panic! button (Resilient sphere),
+5-20 HP for 8 hours (Aid)
5-8 Temp HP (False Life).
Three potential missed hit (Mirror Image)

You draw aggro by stopping enemies with sentinel opportunity attacks, dragging enemies to you with your level 15 reaction, and giving enemies disadvantage to attack targets other than you.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Yuanti + Ancient Paladin might be one of the toughest things in the game. High saves, advantage vs spells & magical effects, resistance to spell damage, immune to poison and the poison status. This along with a good armor save and maybe even Heavy Armor Mastery will definitely be one of the toughest things I can think of. If you can work in a decent Constitution for the extra health then this character should be nearly indestructible but you will likely be ignored unless you take a method to increase your offense & stickiness.

After that the only thing even close could be a Tiefling + Ancient Paladin with the feat that gives them more elemental resistances and Heavy Armor Mastery. Which to be honest I think is around 95% of the toughness that the Yuanti has. I think it would likely break down to which is more prevalent in your games, poison or non-magical elemental damage such as from Dragons.

I played an Ancients paladin with 20 Cha, 16 Resilient Con, and a cloak of protection once (not Yuan-Ti, but still). His Con saves were hilarious - you basically had to put him down to break his concentration.

Also, one of the least susceptible to Forcecage, since he could actually make the save to Misty Step out of it.

[Droppeddead]

Gnome Bear Barbarian. Advantage on saves against all spells,

Not all spells. ;)

[Lunali]

I'm sad, only one person even mentioned monk. Proficient in all saves, reroll failed saves, evasion, resistance to all but force damage, invisibility, dodge as a bonus action and all that without even considering subclass. I'd have to give it to long death there, 1 ki to not die.

[x3n0n]

But what is better / more survivable from level 1 on up?


I'm sad, only one person even mentioned monk. Proficient in all saves, reroll failed saves, evasion, resistance to all but force damage, invisibility, dodge as a bonus action and all that without even considering subclass. I'd have to give it to long death there, 1 ki to not die.

I love Monks, but given that OP specifically mentioned "from level 1 on up", I have a hard time calling Monk particularly durable in tiers 1 and 2.
(Long Death's THP certainly help, but not so much that I'd prefer it over something with more AC, more HP, and/or better saves.)

Diamond Soul changes everything, and Empty Body does again...but that's a long time to wait.

[Frogreaver]

I'm looking at building a very sturdy PC (both damage and control resistant) - someone who can survive most anything and keep in the fight.

Which Race has the best saving throws benefit?

Yuan Ti: ADV vs spells and magical effects
Satyr: ADV vs spells and magical effect, fey (not humanoid)
Vedalken: ADV on all INT, WIS, CHA saves

Other?

Yuan Ti is better than Satyr. Pros: Darkvision, Poision Immunity.
Vedalken is the worst of those 3.


What class/subclass?

I'd think Vedalken ADV on INT, WIS, CHA w/ BearBarb for ST & CON save proff + ADV on DEX + resist all but psychic, then add Ancients Pali Aura would be pretty crazy.

But what is better / more survivable from level 1 on up?

Personally I would do a Paladin/Hexblade that primarily uses EB and focuses on Warlock levels.

[Dork_Forge]

I think Artificer is a good contender here:

-high AC potential
-Con saves
-Flash of Genius
-access to healing and buffing spells
-subclass specific defenses

I've played a Battle Smith with Tough and Healer feats and weathered some serious battles, patching both myself and the party up afterwards.

Race wise the focus in the thread seems to primarily be on Magic Resistance (or similar) abilities, understandable but personally I like Goliaths *shrug*


I'm sad, only one person even mentioned monk. Proficient in all saves, reroll failed saves, evasion, resistance to all but force damage, invisibility, dodge as a bonus action and all that without even considering subclass. I'd have to give it to long death there, 1 ki to not die.

Monk's defenses are great, but mostly come online at higher levels. Most Tier 1 monks are really more durable than any other class unless they're burning Ki on Patient Defense.

[DarknessEternal]

Svirfneblin Fighter 1/Abjuration Wizard the rest

Feats: Svirfneblin Magic, Shield Master

You are now proficient in Str and Con Saves, get Prof to Dex saves, and advantage Int/Wis/Cha saves.

As an action, with no limit, you gain 6 temp Hp to a max of (Wiz level+Int) x2, so 32 temp hp any time your out of combat at level 12 for example.

At level 15, you have resistance to all damage from spells.

Plate+shield+staff of power (theoretically) is ridiculous AC.

[Dork_Forge]

Svirfneblin Fighter 1/Abjuration Wizard the rest

Feats: Svirfneblin Magic, Shield Master

You are now proficient in Str and Con Saves, get Prof to Dex saves, and advantage Int/Wis/Cha saves.

As an action, with no limit, you gain 6 temp Hp to a max of (Wiz level+Int) x2, so 32 temp hp any time your out of combat at level 12 for example.

At level 15, you have resistance to all damage from spells.

Plate+shield+staff of power (theoretically) is ridiculous AC.

Looks good at first glance but:

-Your stats are spread thinner than the last of the butter with that build, if you hard dump Dex (not recommended) then it's more manageable but worse overall.

-Abjurer's Ward (which isn't temp hp) is just a patch for the lower health of the Wizard, you'd be better off as a straight d10/d12 class with better Con

-That AC is nice, but not impressive by any means, you can do the same or better without needing a Very Rare magic item

[strangebloke]

I'm sad, only one person even mentioned monk. Proficient in all saves, reroll failed saves, evasion, resistance to all but force damage, invisibility, dodge as a bonus action and all that without even considering subclass. I'd have to give it to long death there, 1 ki to not die.
monks depend on how base stats are generated and how high level we're talking. At high levels they're insane but they're very fragile for melee characters at low levels.

Looks good at first glance but:
-Abjurer's Ward (which isn't temp hp) is just a patch for the lower health of the Wizard, you'd be better off as a straight d10/d12 class with better Con

Abjurer's Ward can get refreshed for free over a short rest which makes it superior to HP. Plus there are arguments that you don't need to make concentration checks when its up, as well as synergies with certain spells in particular (like simulacrum and AoA)

The Abjurer is all about countering the opposition though. Counterspell, shield, and absorb elements put together make you a very sturdy character. Helps that all of these spells heal you when cast.

Edit: and how the frick are you getting more AC without any items? Plate + Shield is 20 + shield spell is 25, plus the rare item is 27. It's not the theoretical limit for AC but its damned good.

[Dork_Forge]

Abjurer's Ward can get refreshed for free over a short rest which makes it superior to HP.

No it can be replenished over a short rest if you cast abjuration spells, if you go the Deep Gnome route this cost you a feat and subclass to pull off. If you're going standard Abjurer then you're ritually casting spells repeatedly that it probably doesn't even make sense for your character to be casting. Since most of the rituals that apply to this are 1st level, and rituals take ten minutes, you're going to reach a point where you're either not fully replenishing it or the party is waiting around for you to complete your very gamist set of actions.

Whether or not any of that is better than real HP really depends on the game, if the party never really ends up running out of hit die, has a Bard and/or Chef, then the higher HP route works out better. This is particularly because there's more things in the game, that either the PC in question can do themselves, or anyone else can do for them that recovers hp, vs regenerating the ward.


Plus there are arguments that you don't need to make concentration checks when its up, as well as synergies with certain spells in particular (like simulacrum and AoA)

The bulk of your hp is still coming from your hit die and Con, the Ward likely won't last long, so it's really just less concentration checks, instead of none.


The Abjurer is all about countering the opposition though. Counterspell, shield, and absorb elements put together make you a very sturdy character. Helps that all of these spells heal you when cast.

The Abjurer is primarily about countering casters, if you're playing a game that doesn't really feature enemy casters then the Abjurer's defensive value drops significantly.


Edit: and how the frick are you getting more AC without any items? Plate + Shield is 20 + shield spell is 25, plus the rare item is 27. It's not the theoretical limit for AC but its damned good.

It's primarily just a heavy armor user, considering it requires a multiclass and Very Rare item, it's pretty meh:

-a Kensei Monk can at will hit AC 22 naked without any items, there's plenty of lower rarity items that would boost their AC higher

-a vanilla Artificer is hitting AC 21 in medium armor with two infusions, if you actually want to focus on AC: Armorer x/Fighter 1 get's to AC 23 walking around, at higher levels that automatically bumps to AC 24. No DM given items.

Those are two builds off the top of my head that meet or beat the proposed build's walking around AC without items, I didn't really try to think of any more, or include any resource based buffs.

But what about Shield?

It's incredibly easy to get access to and falls down in two places for the Abjurer:

-It costs spell slots

-It costs a reaction

In your reply to me you listed three reaction spells alone, not counting if the Abjurer actually wants to use their 6th level ability. If you actually get to fight an enemy caster, not only are you going to have to weigh up Shield/Absorb Elements vs Counterspell, but if you do go with them, there's potential for the enemy caster to Counterspell your defense.

So whilst yes, technically the AC for that build would be 27, it's not the actual AC, or guaranteed effective AC, and it's a trick easily applied to almost any other high AC build.

I guess for completeness:

Simulacrum is a 14th level and above trick that is incredibly expensive and a known OP spell.

AoA is a nice spell, but isn't a Wizard spell and the rider does nothing for you if you're getting hit by ranged attacks or AoE. For durability you'd be better off with False Life

[Snails]

If you are all in for this theme, a one level dip into Sorcerer/Divine Soul gets you Favored By the Gods. You will already have sky high saves by your other means, but FbtG can be used after knowing the results of your saving throw. At a respectable 2d4 bonus, you might literally be succeeding on a rolled Nat 1 in many real table situations.

Obviously, such paladin is not the most puissant, but he or she will not be bad at fighting because of Smite. You will probably want to push your Str up to 16 for heavy armor.

[strangebloke]

No it can be replenished over a short rest if you cast abjuration spells, if you go the Deep Gnome route this cost you a feat and subclass to pull off. If you're going standard Abjurer then you're ritually casting spells repeatedly that it probably doesn't even make sense for your character to be casting. Since most of the rituals that apply to this are 1st level, and rituals take ten minutes, you're going to reach a point where you're either not fully replenishing it or the party is waiting around for you to complete your very gamist set of actions.

Whether or not any of that is better than real HP really depends on the game, if the party never really ends up running out of hit die, has a Bard and/or Chef, then the higher HP route works out better. This is particularly because there's more things in the game, that either the PC in question can do themselves, or anyone else can do for them that recovers hp, vs regenerating the ward.



The bulk of your hp is still coming from your hit die and Con, the Ward likely won't last long, so it's really just less concentration checks, instead of none.



The Abjurer is primarily about countering casters, if you're playing a game that doesn't really feature enemy casters then the Abjurer's defensive value drops significantly.



It's primarily just a heavy armor user, considering it requires a multiclass and Very Rare item, it's pretty meh:

-a Kensei Monk can at will hit AC 22 naked without any items, there's plenty of lower rarity items that would boost their AC higher

-a vanilla Artificer is hitting AC 21 in medium armor with two infusions, if you actually want to focus on AC: Armorer x/Fighter 1 get's to AC 23 walking around, at higher levels that automatically bumps to AC 24. No DM given items.

Those are two builds off the top of my head that meet or beat the proposed build's walking around AC without items, I didn't really try to think of any more, or include any resource based buffs.

But what about Shield?

It's incredibly easy to get access to and falls down in two places for the Abjurer:

-It costs spell slots

-It costs a reaction

In your reply to me you listed three reaction spells alone, not counting if the Abjurer actually wants to use their 6th level ability. If you actually get to fight an enemy caster, not only are you going to have to weigh up Shield/Absorb Elements vs Counterspell, but if you do go with them, there's potential for the enemy caster to Counterspell your defense.

So whilst yes, technically the AC for that build would be 27, it's not the actual AC, or guaranteed effective AC, and it's a trick easily applied to almost any other high AC build.

Its not better than every other build in every other way but I do think it'd be very hard to kill under most circumstances. In the vast majority of cases you're going to know if you need AC or AA or Counterspell.

And yeah, I was assuming the feat investment, isn't the the whole point of going deep gnome?

[Dork_Forge]

Its not better than every other build in every other way but I do think it'd be very hard to kill under most circumstances.

Personally don't see it much more durable than any stock built martial.


In the vast majority of cases you're going to know if you need AC or AA or Counterspell.

The assumption here that Icertainly don't agree with is that you'd only ever need to use one on a given round, and that said use would be effective all of the time. Crits still happen, halved damage from AE could still take a substantial chunk out of your actual hp, and I've never seen or designed an encounter where an enemy caster doesn't have multiple 'just hit em' types on hand.


And yeah, I was assuming the feat investment, isn't the the whole point of going deep gnome?

My point was that it costs you a feat, so where you end up better be worth it, especially since:

-It won't come online until 4th level

-You're delaying your Int for it (delaying your to hit, DC and max Ward increase)

[DarknessEternal]

Personally don't see it much more durable than any stock built martial.



The assumption here that Icertainly don't agree with is that you'd only ever need to use one on a given round, and that said use would be effective all of the time. Crits still happen, halved damage from AE could still take a substantial chunk out of your actual hp, and I've never seen or designed an encounter where an enemy caster doesn't have multiple 'just hit em' types on hand.



My point was that it costs you a feat, so where you end up better be worth it, especially since:

-It won't come online until 4th level

-You're delaying your Int for it (delaying your to hit, DC and max Ward increase)

Why do you have such a burning need for only your opinion to be right?

[Dork_Forge]

Why do you have such a burning need for only your opinion to be right?

I don't at all and I'm more than open to good points raised by others, part of what you quoted was even addressing a question.

Putting something on a forum is opening it up for the thoughts and opinions of others.

[strangebloke]

Personally don't see it much more durable than any stock built martial.
What do you consider "stock"?

I'll point to three examples: Kensei monk, EK, and Bearbarian.

The Kensei can't get 20 AC until relatively high level (eight) and has worse HP and worse protection against spells until (once again) high levels. The Kensei performs a lot better against breath attacks and at the end of a long adventuring day.
The EK has far fewer protective slots and has much more trouble using counterspell, only matching HP and surpassing AC by one. Also has less access to other defensive spells like haste/blur/blink etc. Overall just kind of worse in every way?
The Bearbarian, like the monk, can't get 20 AC until relatively high level, but has amazing HP and resistance when raging. MUCH better against breath attacks, but terrible against non-damaging spells. Can go gnome or Satyr or Yuan-Ti to shore up these weaknesses but AC and CON will suffer.

Some of these will be stronger under some conditions. Under other conditions the Abjurer will win.

The assumption here that Icertainly don't agree with is that you'd only ever need to use one on a given round, and that said use would be effective all of the time. Crits still happen, halved damage from AE could still take a substantial chunk out of your actual hp, and I've never seen or designed an encounter where an enemy caster doesn't have multiple 'just hit em' types on hand.


Most of the time you'd like to use all three every turn, sure, but its pretty easy to tell what the biggest threat in a round is going to be. If there's a dragon about to dump a breath weapon, or a swarm of hobgoblins, or a lich, you can pick priorities. Importantly this character isn't weak to any of the above even without these resources, except for maybe the breath weapon.

And with preparation, wizards look even better since they have access to spells like blur, blink, and haste.

Sure, all of these require resources, but comparing this to a barbarian.... barbarians have to rage to get resistances, which is also a LR resource. A big plus of this class is that they have a fifth of their HP that regenerates for free.


My point was that it costs you a feat, so where you end up better be worth it, especially since:

-It won't come online until 4th level

-You're delaying your Int for it (delaying your to hit, DC and max Ward increase)

This is a narrow minmaxing question, externalities like "delaying your to hit bonus" aren't particularly relevant. Sure, there's some point at which somebody brings up the "tortle monk who is hiding in his shell and dodging" which is just kind of unworkable as a character concept, but a wizard with most of their spell slots available and slightly lower INT than their optimized competition does not qualify. If externalities are being considered, this build would undoubtedly far outshine derpy bear barbarians who don't get class features past fifth level, have almost zero out of combat utility, and have put all their stats into DEX and CON rather than STR.

The only downside here that's relevant is lowering your max Ward by, uh.... one?

[HPisBS]

By what level do you want this to be online? The Tank (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24520968&postcount=62) and Relentless (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24514846&postcount=37) builds (also in my signature) are pretty great on survivability. You'd probably prefer the latter as it gets more varied defenses earlier on.

Speaking of which, I'm kinda surprised Zealot hasn't been mentioned until now (it's part of the Relentless build). The lvl 6 and 10 features are limited-use, but it's still advantage / re-rolls on saves. And then the lvl 14 "Rage Beyond Death" is peak survivability. (So long as you have healing potions or something on you; it's all detailed in the linked post.) I guess Calm Emotions would be your one true weakness lol

[Dork_Forge]

What do you consider "stock"?

An average example of that build, no DM items, multiclassing or heavy feat use.


I'll point to three examples: Kensei monk, EK, and Bearbarian.

Your comparison is flawed:



The Kensei can't get 20 AC until relatively high level (eight) and has worse HP and worse protection against spells until (once again) high levels. The Kensei performs a lot better against breath attacks and at the end of a long adventuring day.

8th level is relatively high? Weren't you referring to Simulacrum upthread? Hitting higher AC is left to higher levels yes, but the Kensei can have a 16AC naked and effecitvely 18AC in combat as soon as they are actually a Kensei. The Abjurer/Fighter is reliant on Plate to top out, which is entirely dependent on loot (for example in my campaigns you wouldn't be getting plate until mid tier 2).

Worse defenses against what spells exactly? Dex saves are obviously stellar, Wisdom based spells seem to be the biggest threat which the Monk will have a decent modifier in, Strength proficiency and a high mobility to deal with control effects. It just seems like you're labelling 'doesn't have Counter Spell' as worse defenses against spells, pointing to 8th level as a relatively high level when the Abjurer won't get CS until 6th...

Worth mentioning that with Quickened Healing the Monk can also convert unused Ki into hp regen.


The EK has far fewer protective slots and has much more trouble using counterspell, only matching HP and surpassing AC by one. Also has less access to other defensive spells like haste/blur/blink etc. Overall just kind of worse in every way?

This touches on one of my pet peeves, Abjurer's Ward is not hp. The EK is superior in hp, being able to afford higher Con and with Second Wind to make that difference even larger.

The EK is a worse caster than a primary Wizard, of course they are, but your assumption is that you need to have spells to have defenses. Superior HP and AC, short rest recharging heal (designed to be used in combat), more ASIs to spend on Con or feats (Tough, Defensive Duelist etc.).

The Abjurer needs the plethora of spells and abilities to patch the intentional fragility of the Wizard, all they really do is cast spells so they are dependent on it. The core Fighter chassis is not.

Bear in mind when listing things like this, the Abjurer is delayed in spell progression, earlier levels are more deadly for everyone and the Abjurer is especially in that category in what you seem to deem as usual levels (inferred from the high level comment).


The Bearbarian, like the monk, can't get 20 AC until relatively high level, but has amazing HP and resistance when raging. MUCH better against breath attacks, but terrible against non-damaging spells. Can go gnome or Satyr or Yuan-Ti to shore up these weaknesses but AC and CON will suffer.

The Bearbarian doesn't need high AC for the reasons you list, but they can still hit AC 19 just throwing Half Plate and a shield on, which should be available significantly earlier than plate given it's half the cost.

Again, I'd like some examples of what spells you're talking about, it looks like you're just pointing towards Wis saves here?


Some of these will be stronger under some conditions. Under other conditions the Abjurer will win.

Yes, the point being that the build was suggested as specialising in durability where the generic builds listed above are average examples of their kind.


Most of the time you'd like to use all three every turn, sure, but its pretty easy to tell what the biggest threat in a round is going to be. If there's a dragon about to dump a breath weapon, or a swarm of hobgoblins, or a lich, you can pick priorities. Importantly this character isn't weak to any of the above even without these resources, except for maybe the breath weapon.

Strong disagree here, is the Dragon attacks you with a Legendary Action tail attack, will you Shield or save your reaction on the off chance that the Dragon breathes on it's turn? If the DM isn't openly rolling in the open how can you know if a breath weapon is on the table any given turn?

I ran a swarm fo Hobgoblins against one of my parties, it included the Hobgoblin war mage (Destroyer I think?), how is it clear if the mage is the threat here or the Hobgoblins using weapon attacks?

Even with Liches, I can't see a mage being alone against an entire party, even if they're alone there's Lair and Legendary actions. It isn't clear cut.


And with preparation, wizards look even better since they have access to spells like blur, blink, and haste.

Yes, all of which are short duration and require an action to cast, you're also loading your spell list (limited because of the delayed Int btw) with defences and dedicating your slots to them. If all of your slots are defensive... you're what casting cantrips? Being a below par martial?


Sure, all of these require resources, but comparing this to a barbarian.... barbarians have to rage to get resistances, which is also a LR resource. A big plus of this class is that they have a fifth of their HP that regenerates for free.

Not a particularly valid comparison, the Barbarian is reliant on Rage only for resistance. Their superior hp, decent to good AC and Danger Sense are all independent abilities (then if 7th or higher the benefits of higher initiative).

Mandatory AW is not hp comment again, and it isn't 'free' it cost a race choice, feat and time.


This is a narrow minmaxing question, externalities like "delaying your to hit bonus" aren't particularly relevant. Sure, there's some point at which somebody brings up the "tortle monk who is hiding in his shell and dodging" which is just kind of unworkable as a character concept, but a wizard with most of their spell slots available and slightly lower INT than their optimized competition does not qualify.

Okay, then we will focus more on the narrow question and ignore the general lowered effectiveness of the Fighter/Abjurer as a Wizard (and just bumping your Int at 4th level is a really low floor for 'optimized competition')


If externalities are being considered, this build would undoubtedly far outshine derpy bear barbarians who don't get class features past fifth level, have almost zero out of combat utility, and have put all their stats into DEX and CON rather than STR.

Don't get class features past 5th level? What nonsense is that? Feral Instinct is a great feature and the Totem barbarian (because whilst we talk about Bear for the resistances, you aren't locked into a single totem) has plenty of out of combat utility to it. Barbarian as a whole certainly tapers off later on, but it certainly isn't at 5th and (especially if you include Tasha's) they aren't devoid of out of combat at all.


The only downside here that's relevant is lowering your max Ward by, uh.... one?

Smaller prepared spells list, you've listed quite an array of defensive spells: Shield, Absorb Elements, Blink, Blur, Haste, Counterspell and presumably others, but that alone is 6 spells leaving you primarily with 1st level spells otherwise.

It's not a bad build, I just don't think it's as great as advertised and doesn't even come online as you seem to envision it until 6th level.

[strangebloke]

not replying to all that

Look, I don't know why you have a stick in your craw about this but one specific thing that annoys me is that you keep saying that "ward isn't hp!"

yes it is? That's how it functions? You take damage from it instead of HP. The only ways its different are all positives, in that its easier to refresh (with this build) and can be used in other ways. Oh I guess if you're worried about Power Word Kill specifically its worse but that's about the only difference I see.

Abjurers have 1d6 + CON HP, and their ward offers 2 'hp' per level, which, uh... exactly the same as 1d10+CON HP, with an upside (in this build) And yes that's contingent on build resources being used but uhhhhhh this is a thread about builds? Builds to increase survivability?

[MaxWilson]

I'm looking at building a very sturdy PC (both damage and control resistant) - someone who can survive most anything and keep in the fight.

Which Race has the best saving throws benefit?

Yuan Ti: ADV vs spells and magical effects
Satyr: ADV vs spells and magical effect, fey (not humanoid)
Vedalken: ADV on all INT, WIS, CHA saves

If sturdiness is your one and only goal then I'd suggest a Yuan-ti Paladin 6/Long Death Monk 14. Paladins are sturdy in Tier 1, and Long Death adds quasi-unkillability, bonus action Dodge, Slow Fall, Missile Deflection, and eventual Diamond Soul saving throw proficiencies + rerolls.

It's pretty MAD but trying to maximize all saves and survivability is inherently MAD already. Using point-buy for sake of argument, you'll start off with Str 13, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 16, then spend two ASIs increasing Cha to 20 and the other two ASIs (probably) on extra HP (Con 14, Tough) or even better Dex and Wisdom saves (Dex 14, Wis 14, Lucky). Both are somewhat redundant because of all the Paladin and Monk abilities you have already.

This build will be tough from level 1, but for the sake of argument I'll just summarize where you wind up:

AC 21ish in full plate + shield (Defense style), bonus action Dodge (1 ki out of 14)
126 HP (or 186 HP with Con 14 and Tough)
Saves: Str +12, Dex +12 (or +13 with Dex 14), Con +12 (or +13 with Con 14), Int +11, Wis +12 (or +13 with Wis 13), Cha +16, advantage vs. magic effects, reroll saves (1 ki) [potentially add Lucky rerolls 3/day]

With +13 to Wisdom saves, you've got an 80% chance to avoid even Great Cthulhu's (https://petersengames.com/the-games-shop/cthulhu-mythos-for-5e/) (Stage 4) Unnameable Doom (96% chance if you spend Lucky dice), and a similar 80% chance not to be dominated by him every turn (DC 23 Wisdom save if you're within 10 miles of his nucleus), and an 80% chance not to be restrained by his influence (DC 23 Dex save every round that you're within 10 miles) and subsequently instantly devoured (DC 23 Str save if you're already restrained at the start of your turn). You might survive for a whole minute!

In actual play though I'd recommend you take something with a little bit more offense than two longsword attacks per round. Defense in good in 5E is good mostly because it's cheap, but investing a whole build in defense is not something I'd recommend. A regular padlock (e.g. Paladin 9/Hexblade 11) would probably do better at the overall game (including stopping Cthulhu before it escalates to Stage 4).

[Dork_Forge]

Look, I don't know why you have a stick in your craw about this but one specific thing that annoys me is that you keep saying that "ward isn't hp!"

yes it is? That's how it functions? You take damage from it instead of HP. The only ways its different are all positives, in that its easier to refresh (with this build) and can be used in other ways. Oh I guess if you're worried about Power Word Kill specifically its worse but that's about the only difference I see.

Abjurers have 1d6 + CON HP, and their ward offers 2 'hp' per level, which, uh... exactly the same as 1d10+CON HP, with an upside (in this build) And yes that's contingent on build resources being used but uhhhhhh this is a thread about builds? Builds to increase survivability?

Based on your signature I will take your suggestion, you're being very rude.

I'll make this simple, if you take a short rest and spend hit die, do you apply the result of those rolls to your ward? If someone casts Cure Wounds on you, does that replenish your ward? No.

It isn't hp, and that matters. In a good way for not proccing concentration saves, in a bad way since effects that care about your max hp will be dispropotionately more deadly to you.

Your ward goes away, you take damage and then get a crit or just a big damage dealt to you, you hit 0hp. Does your ward matter for calculating if you then instadie? Nope.

If an undead drains your max hp does the Ward matter? Nope

Here's something else to consider, resistance doesn't apply to the ward.

Pulling numbers out of thin air for ease of use, let's say a fighter has 50hp and the Abjurer has 35hp and 15hp ward, under your way of thinking they both 'have the same hp.' Let's say they're Tieflings and get Fireballed, failing the save the damage is 28 total.

The Fighter takes 14 and is left with 36hp.

The Abjurer loses the entire ward, then takes a futher 6 damage, being left with 29hp.

Despite what you say, the Abjurer has clearly come off worse here, actually worse than having temp hp.

The amount of times Absorb Elements comes up, I would hope this is an enlightening example.

Ward isn't hp, this manifests in many differences, and yes it does matter.

The point of build resources was that it was a significant investment that imo isn't worth it. You clearly both disagree and misunderstand that point up until now, I hopefully have rectified the latter at least.

[MaxWilson]

Your overall argument is persuasive (ward != HP and that has meaningful consequences) so please forgive the nitpicking, Dork_Forge, but here goes with the nitpicks just for the record:


Pulling numbers out of thin air for ease of use, let's say a fighter has 50hp and the Abjurer has 35hp and 15hp ward, under your way of thinking they both 'have the same hp.' Let's say they're Tieflings and get Fireballed, failing the save the damage is 28 total.

The Fighter takes 16 and is left with 34hp.

The Abjurer loses the entire ward, then takes a futher 6 damage, being left with 29hp.

Nitpick 1: half of 28 is 14, not 16.

Nitpick 2: the Abjuror doesn't have to lose the entire ward, they also have the option of taking 14 damage and being left with 21 HP and a 15 HP ward.

[Dork_Forge]

Your overall argument is persuasive (ward != HP and that has meaningful consequences) so please forgive the nitpicking, Dork_Forge, but here goes with the nitpicks just for the record:
Don't mind at all, I appreciate the constructive input



Nitpick 1: half of 28 is 14, not 16.

Thanks, I was distracted by session prep whilst writing this, I'll go back and correct the post


Nitpick 2: the Abjuror doesn't have to lose the entire ward, they also have the option of taking 14 damage and being left with 21 HP and a 15 HP ward.

Was this errata'd or something? Both my PHB and the DND Beyond entry says that when you take damage the ward takes it first, it's not worded in a 'you can have it take the damage instead' way like 5e is want to do. So I just assumed it was an automatic thing as long as it is in place.

[x3n0n]

Don't mind at all, I appreciate the constructive input

FWIW, I think you could have short-circuited several heated exchanges by having brought up the resistance example in the first place. I appreciate the clarification of the explicit dis-synergy with a typical Wizard tactic (Absorb Elements vs large incoming blasts), but not the way the conversation was handled on either side.

Also, having re-read Arcane Ward, I agree that it doesn't look optional, which is another point against it.

[MaxWilson]

Was this errata'd or something? Both my PHB and the DND Beyond entry says that when you take damage the ward takes it first, it's not worded in a 'you can have it take the damage instead' way like 5e is want to do. So I just assumed it was an automatic thing as long as it is in place.

You're right, and I've been doing it wrong. Today I learned...

[strangebloke]

Based on your signature I will take your suggestion, you're being very rude.

Regrettable. I think a part of me was aware of that but I was in a pretty crappy mood so I pushed on anyway. Apologies and I will try to do better.

Ward isn't hp, this manifests in many differences, and yes it does matter.

I was aware of most of the differences between ward and HP you listed, I just didn't consider them that relevant in a build that (effectively) refreshed its ability on a short rest. The example of hit dice in particular stands out. Why should I care about using hit dice to heal if that portion of my health is coming back anyway? A lot of the other examples feel like edge cases much of the time, like getting your max HP drained to zero by undead or effects like Power Word Kill.

But I wasn't aware that resistance didn't apply to the ward, or I hadn't thought through that interaction (this makes the most glaring weakness of the build, high-damage element effects, particularly bad) and your post also brought to mind certain other examples like Life Cleric's channel divinity which isn't going to come up in every campaign but will come up a lot when it does.

FWIW I think there's also a disconnect based on how I run my games. I tend to run with a "short" rest being 8 eight hours and a "long" rest being seven days. This changes a lot of things (most notably I have to tweak spell durations) but one effect is that I'm used to thinking of downtime as an ultra cheap resource.

The point of build resources was that it was a significant investment that imo isn't worth it. You clearly both disagree and misunderstand that point up until now, I hopefully have rectified the latter at least.
It isn't worth going 19 levels into wizard purely for survivability, no, and that's not really what I intended. But on the other hand if you want to build a tough wizard, that is the way to do it.