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GreatWyrmGold
2021-03-24, 04:58 PM
I don't know why this thought came to me earlier today, but it did, and now I'm going to talk about it.

What are prestige classes?

In D&D 3.5 (and 3.0), prestige classes were a type of character class. They were distinguished from ordinary classes by two main factors: They were only available to higher-level characters (generally 5th level at the minimum), and were much more specific than any base class. (Usually—"archmage" is still pretty generic.) Prestige classes allowed a far greater range of character customization, giving you the option of getting some specific class to make your (say) wizard distinct from all the other wizards you'd played...in theory.
In practice, most prestige classes were ridiculously specific, with only one or a handful of character concepts that could fit them and some extremely gimmicky powers. Also, with few exceptions, prestige classes didn't advance any of your base class abilities except spellcasting (which isn't as bad as it sounds, since 3.5 classes tended to be frontloaded, but it's still not good).

Do prestige classes fit into 5e's design paradigm?

Not really.

5e's subclasses are meant to fill the design needs which prestige classes filled in 3.5—they provide mechanics for more specific character concepts, new options for players to get excited over, etc. Some would argue that subclasses do this better than prestige classes, since you pick a subclass in your first few levels instead of needing to wait until the mid-levels to see any reflection of your choices. (They're usually not quite so uselessly gimmicky, so that's another improvement.)

The way subclasses are tied to core classes also restrains them, both for worse and for better. Sure, it greatly reduces their potential scope, but it also means subclasses won't be as worthless or broken as they could be in 3.5. There's not enough space to squeeze in too much busted stuff, any busted stuff that slips in will be spread over the entire level range, and even the most uselessly situational abilities can't erase the base class abilities that the characters would still get.
And let's face it, 3.5's class bloat would have been a problem even if all those classes were well-designed.

But just because most of the same ground is covered by subclasses doesn't mean there's no place for prestige classes in 5e, does there?

...It kinda does?

Nuh-uh.

Then what purpose would a prestige class serve?

In my opinion, a potential prestige class needs a few things to justify not making it a subclass.

First off, it should be at least a little "prestigious". A mere different method/focus for one's magic or fighting or whatever is better-suited to a subclass than a prestige class; prestige classes should generally involve either developing some unique skill, training with some elite organization, or something along those lines.
Second, there should be enough mechanical content to fill a class (without resorting to boring filler abilities). If you can't come up with at least mildly interesting mechanical expressions of a character idea, maybe you don't need to codify it into a mechanical system.
Third, it should be either broad enough to apply to multiple classes (e.g. all arcane casters, all martial classes) or intended as a specialization of an existing subclass. This would make it either too general or too specialized to work as a simple subclass.
If your idea has only one of the above (or none), consider whether you can make it as a subclass.

Let's say that I have an idea for a prestige class. How should I build it?

This probably deserves its own section.



Prestige Classes and Tiers

5e has a fairly rigid schedule for handing out new abilities, which sounds bad but is probably a good thing. To start with, it means that you aren't likely to get many classes like 3.5's fighter or monk, who respectively had a very flat and boring power progression and a rather messy one. More relevantly for homebrewers, it gives you a fairly clear guide for when characters should get various abilities (which you can see, for instance, here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gR9yfTbXJ2mMz0vYkdVQIzQWKTw9IODpzteFJShl1zo/edit#)).

The most obvious way this comes across is in the tiers of play. At each new tier, characters gain some ability which greatly improves their capabilities—extra attacks, a potent new level of spells, faster recharge of Bardic Inspiration, etc. Prestige classes can't follow quite the same format, since you don't start playing them at level 1, but you can still fit them into the standard progression. Prestige classes usually grant cool new abilities for a character to use, as do tier-ups; just have your prestige class become available at a new-tier level and have it provide new abilities at an appropriate rate to match a single-class character.

Tiers are irritatingly but not irreparably uneven in length. Tier 1 is the four levels from 1-4, Tier 2 is the six from 5-10, Tier 3 is the six from 11-16, and Tier 4 is the last four levels, 17-20. Obviously, a prestige class wouldn't be designed for Tier 1, and I think we won't lose much if we ignore the possibility of a Tier 4 prestige class. So prestige classes would be designed for tiers 2 and/or 3.

How could we fit a prestige class into the level progression? I have two ideas, which I hope the following table will help explain.



Ordinary Class Level
Prestige Class Level [A]
Prestige Class Level


1




2




3




4




[B]5
1



6
2
1


7
3
2


8
4
3


9
5
4


10
6
5


11
7
6


12
(8)
(7)


13
(9)
(8)


14
(10)
(9)


15
(11)
(10)


16
(12)
(11)


17
(13)
(12)


18
(14)
(13)


19
(15)
(14)


20
(16)
(15)


Technically 20th level isn't a new tier, but the capstone is kind of like a new tier.

Idea A: Have a class that characters can qualify for after 4th level, where its first and seventh levels gives the equivalent of a new-tier abilities. Idea B: Have a class that characters can qualify for after 5th level, where its sixth level gives a tier-equivalent ability. In either case, if you want a big prestige class, you can extend it further, with another tier-up ability at the twelfth or thirteenth prestige class level.

I like the feel of Idea A better; you pick up a new prestige class and immediately get a shot of power, replacing whatever similar boost you might have gotten from your base class. (And, of course, it's bookended by a prestige capstone several levels later.) But it has a big downside—nothing's stopping you from picking up the prestige boost and also the 5th-level tier ability one right after the other. Or, worse, taking one level each of multiple prestige classes after five levels of a base class! So, idea B and its six-level prestige classes is probably better.

What would work as prerequisites?

In 3.5, there were these things called "base attack bonuses," "base saving throws," and "skill ranks" which were often used to level-gate prestige classes. For better and for worse, these qualities have been rolled into a single number—proficiency bonus. While requiring that anyone taking a prestige class have a proficiency bonus of at least +3 would block tier 1 characters, it wouldn't be very interesting. The perk of having all those different numbers was that they provided a level gate with character. A class requiring 8 ranks in Hide and Move Silently implies a different flavor than one requiring a base attack bonus of +5 (as well as making it easier/harder for certain classes to enter).

Without that option, we should turn to class abilities. (This is, incidentally, another way that Idea B works better—no class gets anything distinct at 4th level.) If you want a wide variety of classes to be able to enter, your best options are "Extra Attack" and "able to cast 3rd-level spells" (or some subset of 3rd-level spells, e.g. "3rd-level spells with the Fire descriptor" or "3rd-level divination spells"). The former would let in any martial-oriented character of appropriate level, and the latter obviously focuses on primary casters.

Of course, if you have a specific class in mind, you can just pluck that class's 5th-level class feature. If you're creating an exorcism-themed cleric prestige class, for instance, the cleric's Destroy Undead feature is probably a good prerequisite. A monks-only prestige class might require Stunning Fist. Of course, as mentioned above, I think prestige classes should either be broad enough that multiple classes can enter or narrow enough for only a subset of one class; class abilities don't fit that very well. Abilities potentially possessed by multiple classes work better for the former, while the latter obviously works with subclass abilities. For instance, a prestige class which let druids wild-shape into dragons might require the moon druid's combat wild shape ability.

Not all requirements are about making sure you have the right levels to get in; some are flavorful more than anything. Specific races, proficiency in a specific skill/tool/etc, and performing peculiar deeds all work as prestige class requirements; they provide some restrictions on what kinds of characters can join the class, but mostly serve to inform readers what kind of characters should join. A tanky class which requires Intimidate proficiency is going to seem more brutal and less cultured than one which requires History proficiency, even if they offer the same mechanical benefits.

Finally, prestige classes are classes, and by their nature you need to multiclass to obtain one, so you should also have at least one attribute requirement. Part of me wants to say "Just pick a relevant attribute and require a 13," but another part of me argues that prestige classes are Special and should have a requirement of 15 instead. Something for people who actually have a prestige class in mind can figure out, I guess.

What would work for class features?

Something that fits the class. I know this sounds like a cop-out, but the whole point of a prestige class is that it's different.

That said, I do have two suggestions:

Keep in mind what character level each class level will be gained at, and what a single-class character would get at that level. A table like the one I gave above might be useful.
Make sure the class's abilities will continue to be useful as the character gains levels in other classes. The divine duelist's capstone ability might be good at 11th level, but if the campaign goes on long enough to hit tier 4, you don't want the duelist to be left with two classes' worth of abilities that stopped being useful ages ago.

Oh, and "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" was a staple of prestige classes for a reason. If you want spellcasting to continue to be a significant part of your prestige class,

Beyond that...proofread, make sure not to write anything too broken, and be creative.



Can you provide an example?

Heck, I'll provide two. But they're both ideas I came up with specifically to have an idea to use here, so they're probably not going to be ideal.

On one hand, we have the Cavalier, a prestige class based around mounted combat, designed to fit on any martial class chassis. On the other, we have the Thrall of Juiblex, a very specific prestige class for warlocks serving the slime-demon Juiblex who themselves become slime-like. One is a specialized skillset that any martial class can learn (theoretically including Monk), while the other is a fairly specific character concept. The latter is partly inspired by a prestige class in the BoVD, but mostly by how weird a slimy servant of Juiblex would be.

Prerequisites

The cavalier is a martial class. Extra Attack is an obvious generic prerequisite to tack onto this class. Beyond that, cavaliers obviously need to know basic horsemanship; the Handle Animal skill should handle that. Throw in proficiency with the lance, that most classic of equestrian weapons, and Dexterity

Attributes: Dexterity 13*, plus any multiclassing requirements for their prior class(es)
Proficiencies: Handle Animal, lances
Class Features: Extra Attack

*15 if you decide prestige classes need that extra barrier

The Thrall of Juiblex is intended for Warlocks of the fiend patron, but I don't want to be that blunt in saying it. Luckily, there's a straightforward workaround. 3rd-level spells are a natural 5th-level gate, and guess what one of the fiend pact's 3rd-level spells is? Stinking cloud. Not the most Juiblexey spell in the book, but it's a contender.
I'm willing to have an eldritch invocation as a requirement, too. (This lets other spellcasters join if they pick up the Eldritch Adept feat, which is fine by me..) One of the BoVD ToJ's abilities lets it use alter self at will, and part of this class's concept is becoming more amorphous, so Mask of Many Faces seems like a decent requirement.
Let's wrap things up with a skill proficiency (Arcana will have to stand in for Knowledge (the planes)) and a couple of special flavor requirements.
Also attributes. Slimes are traditionally hardy, and the BoVD version required a good Fortitude save, so a Constitution requirement alongside Charisma seems fine.

Attributes: Constitution 13, Charisma 13*, plus any multiclassing requirements for their prior class(es)
Class Features: Mask of Many Faces eldritch invocation
Proficiencies: Arcana
Spellcasting: Must be able to cast stinking cloud.
Special: Must be able to speak and read Abyssal.
Special: Must have been polymorphed or experience some sort of shape changing experience.
Special: The thrall of Juiblex is initiated in a horrific rite that involves the sacrifice of a living being. At least three oozes, slimes or puddings must be present for the ritual. The victim of the ritual must be dissolved in acid.

*15 if you decide prestige classes need that extra barrier


Chassis

Most basic elements of a class can't apply to a prestige class, because multiclassing doesn't usually provide extra proficiencies in 5e. That said, hit dice still exist.

Cavaliers are a martial class, and Thralls of Juiblex were pretty hardy (especially for spellcasters), so both get d10 hit dice, and increase their hit point total by 1d10 (or 6) plus their Constitution modifier per level.

Cavalier Features


First, I go to the Mounted Combat section to see if I can think of any neat equestrian abilities to stick into the class. Un/Fortunately, the rules for mounted combat are pretty simple and straightforward. The only things that come to mind are letting your mount take different kinds of actions when you control it and maybe not letting your opponents choose whether they target you or your mount for AoO's.
The second one is really niche, and would mostly serve to either use your poor horse as a living shield or stop people from cutting the horse from under you. Useful, but probably not game-changing on its own. The former...it amounts to letting your mount do things. The main thing you'd most often want to do with a mount is attack. Maybe there's a more straightforward way to do 90% of what people would want to free up their mounts to do? Or would the additional freedom of being able to attack or have their mount do anything else be better?

Most historic cavalry (leaving out ones who fought with bows, javelins, etc) fought by charging at enemy lines to break them up, either by freaking them out or by getting them to chase the cavalry when they feigned retreat. (Here (https://acoup.blog/2019/05/04/new-acquisitions-that-dothraki-charge/) is a blog post where a PhD explains in detail how this works.) Of course, it would be impossible to try and implement detailed mechanics for the psychological impact of cavalry in a tabletop wargame, and pointless to do so for an RPG where combat rarely involves more than a dozen combatants.
Still, I think drawing on that idea—of cavalry charging in and routing the enemy with their sheer presence—is something worth drawing on. Even though feats are (technically) an optional rule, the Charger feat is a decent place to look at for inspiration.

Some kind of trample-ey ability could be useful, too. Fits in with the “shock cavalry charge” thing. Focusing on that, on charging and terrifying opponents, seems like a good direction to go.

The last ability—Dread Shock—has two parts. One intensifies the effects of the charging abilities by letting them apply to multiple attacks—more damage, more chances to frighten enemies. The other effectively forces enemies to run away at least a little if they want to do anything, giving an opportunity attack (and another chance to frighten remaining enemies).
I’m not sure about the balance. On one hand, if the attack, Extra Attack, and mount attack all hit, that’s triple the bonus damage and triple the fear chances. On the other hand, if only one of those attacks hits, then the only benefit this ability provides is forcing the enemies to run a little harder.




Level
Features


1
Spirited Charge


2
Two Ride as One


3
Ability Score Improvement


4
Terrifying Charge


5
Two Fight As One


6
Dread Shock



Spirited Charge: Cavaliers tend to enter combat by charging directly at the enemy, weapon pointed at the enemy. To use this ability, your mount must use the Dash action and move at least 10 feet in a straight line towards an enemy, and you must take the Attack action. When performing a spirited charge, your first successful attack deals an additional 5 damage.

Two Ride as One: A cavalier knows their steed as well as they know their own body, and the steed responds in kind. At second level, you gain advantage on any Handle Animal checks involving a creature you ride regularly. In addition, you may direct a mount you control to take the Help or Ready action in combat (in addition to Dash, Disengage, or Dodge). Finally, when your mount would take damage from an attack, spell, or similar effect, you may use a reaction to take that damage yourself instead.

Ability Score Increase: When you reach 3rd level, you can increase one ability score of your
choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

Terrifying Charge: Starting at 4th level, the sight and sound of your charging horse inspires terror in your enemies. The first time you hit with an attack in a turn you use Spirited Charge, that creature and all others within 30 feet of the target who are hostile to you must make a Wisdom saving throw. The DC is equal to 10 plus your proficiency bonus; if the target of your attack was killed or incapacitated by your attack, all other creatures make their saving throw with disadvantage. Any creatures who fail this saving throw are frightened of you for one minute or until you are slain, incapacitated, or unhorsed.
Creatures who are adjacent to and frightened of you have disadvantage on attacks and cannot take the Aid action.

Two Fight as One: A cavalier’s mount fights as fiercely as its master. Starting at 5th level, you may direct a mount you control to take the Attack action. In addition, you may use Spirited Charge in a turn when your mount takes the Attack action (it must still move at least 10 feet in a straight line).
Finally, when using Spirited Charge, your mount may make an attack with a hoof, claw, or similar appendage against an opponent you attack. If that attack hits, the target must make a Strength saving throw (DC = 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your mount’s Strength modifier) or be knocked prone.

Dread Shock: At sixth level, the fear of a cavalier’s charge intensifies to a fever pitch. When using Spirited Charge, all attacks you or your mount make that turn deal an additional 5 damage. (This does not stack with Spirited Charge—your first successful attack does not deal an additional 10 damage.)
In addition, all attacks you or your mount make before the end of your next turn activate your Terrifying Charge feature. Finally, creatures who are frightened of you cannot take actions if they are within reach of your weapon. (They can move away and then take an action that turn, but incur an attack of opportunity.)


Note: I considered experimenting with prestige subclasses, specifically breaking this into a Lancer and a Cavalier subclass with features at 2nd and 5th level. Then I realized that requiring horse archers to be proficient with lances, while not terribly game-altering nor as historically inaccurate as it sounds, would be weird in a fantasy world.


Because I wanted to make this pun, but couldn’t justify adding lightning powers to the cavalier.




Thrall of Juiblex Features


With the cavalier, I was free to make whatever within the broad constraints of “shock cavalry”. The Thrall is not only tied more strongly to an existing 3.0 prestige class, but to a specific class and class progression.

Let’s start with spellcasting: It’s progressing as normal. I’m torn on whether or not to include Mystic Arcanum in that spell progression; it feels hacky, but the way warlock spell progression works means that if I didn’t, a warlock who took all six levels of Thrall immediately wouldn’t see any improvements in spellcasting power for several levels thereafter, just a couple of new spells they already knew. I decided against doing so in the end, but mostly because Mystic Arcanum would replace the prestige class capstone.
Speaking of which, I’m keeping one of the eldritch invocations warlocks get at this level range. That helps the class feel warlocky.

Now for new features.
I started in an odd place with this class—the capstone. I know I want the Thrall to transform into an amorphous, monstrous thing, and I want it to be more meaningful than a handful of random immunities. But I also don’t want to radically, permanently transform the character in a way that would ruin their ability to do normal person things.
Luckily, shapeshifting is already part of the class’s power set, so turning into a blob (or being a blob and turning human) isn’t exactly out of the question. But then, the question is “What does the blob do?” Do I want to make it a melee combatant, pushing the prestige class in a gish direction? If so, what do I do about the fact that gish warlocks are likely to pick Pact of the Blade? (Oozes are notorious for not using swords.) If not, what do I focus the class on? Poisoning enemies? Summoning oozes/demons? Shapeshifting for social situations?

...the gish thing probably makes the most sense, with a side of social stuff. So I should probably put some thought into the Pact of the Blade. Maybe a first-level ability that deals acid/poison damage, which you can empower by absorbing the pactblade?
The BoVD class had a Corrosive Touch ability, which makes sense to include if we’re making this a gish. It dealt acid damage on a touch, obviously. A fairly straightforward adaptation would basically serve as a bonus touch-range attack cantrip, which is cool but not that great on its own. Throw in some physical damage alongside it and it’s kinda like green flame/booming blade without the side benefits, but since it’s an attack instead of a cantrip it can be used twice with Thirsting Blade. This seems like it could be good, but probably not overpowered if I drop the damage for a single attack a smidge.

Thralls of Juiblex get a new spell level at 2nd level, so they shouldn’t get too much of a feature there. But they still deserve something...maybe that’s a good place to stick an ability making their disguise self more convincing?

With all of that, there’s only room for the capstone—some kind of slime transformation—and one other ability. I’m torn; I was thinking of throwing in some kind of mitosisy ability that basically let you summon slimes (since the BoVD Thrall had so many summoning abilities), but I feel like there needs to be a stepping stone between “nerfed alter self” and “turn into a blob”.
That last empty spot happens to be at 10th level, when an ordinary Fiend-patron warlock would get Fiendish Resilience, so some kind of damage resistance makes sense. The inability to change what kind fo damage you resist is a pain, so let’s add another “you can pretend to be a wider variety of things” ability in there.

I never got around to deciding what being a big slime actually did, huh? Hold on, let me write some stuff that sounds cool but wouldn’t be too broken for an at-will ability. Damage resistance...big slam...no equipment...hm...




Level
Features
Spellcasting


1
Corrosive Touch
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


2
Fluid Form
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


3
Ability Score Improvement
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


4
Eldritch Invocation
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


5
Turbulent Form
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


6
Amorphous
+1 level of existing spellcasting class



Spellcasting: Whenever you gain a level in Thrall of Juiblex, you gain new spell slots (and spells/cantrips known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the Thrall level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character
of that class would gain (improvements to wild shape, additional sorcery points, and so on). If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a Thrall, you must decide which class to add each level for this purpose.

Eldritch Invocations: When you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the invocations you know and replace it with another invocation that you could learn at that level. Add your Thrall of Juiblex class level to your warlock level (if any) for the purposes of qualifying for eldritch invocations, whether they are gained through this feature or some other means.
In addition, at 4th level, you gain an eldritch invocation of your choice. You have access to the same list of eldritch invocations as a warlock.

Corrosive Touch: You may let your acidic fluids seep through your skin to digest your food or enemies. When used on inanimate organic matter such as wood or leaves, this fluid renders it digestible (though likely unappetizing). You may attempt to splash a creature within reach with acid as a melee spell attack. If you hit, you deal 2d8 acid damage; this increases to 3d8 at 11th level and 4d8 at 17th level.
If you have the Pact of the Blade feature, you may manifest your pact weapon as a modified limb. This limb may be unnaturally enlarged by your shapeshifting, swollen with fluids, or otherwise obviously altered. Regardless, this limb deals 1d10 bludgeoning damage plus 1d8 acid damage (2d8 at 11th level and 3d8 at 17th). This limb is treated as your pact weapon as long as it is enlarged (for instance, for the purpose of invocations which affect your pact weapon).

Fluid Form: As you dedicate your body to Juiblex, it begins to lose cohesion, letting you manipulate it on a more fundamental level than you could before.
When you cast disguise self, it causes your features to physically distort. The changes are imperfect, and any transformed body parts gain a slightly slimy texture; a creature who uses its action to inspect your appearance can realize that something is wrong by succeeding on an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC plus five.
In addition, the range of forms you can appear to take expands. You may change your apparent race, height, weight, facial features, sound of your voice, hair length, coloration, or distinguishing characteristics, if any. This does not change your statistics, you can’t appear as a creature of a different size, and your basic shape must be similar to your natural form. (A typical bipedal humanoid could take the form of an ape or other knuckle-walking creature, for instance, but not an obligate quadruped.)

Turbulent Form: Your body no longer has any meaningful internal anatomy; externally, you only have what anatomy you want. You gain resistance to piercing damage, unless that damage is dealt by a magical or silver weapon.
In addition, you can appear to take a wider variety of forms with disguise self; you can change your size by up to one category, or take the form of a creature with a different shape (such as a serpent or giant spider). Neither of these changes your statistics, except for the space you occupy. You may also take the form of an object, as long as that object is no more than one size category larger or smaller than your normal form.
Using tubulent form (except for the damage resistance) strains your shapeshifting abilities; a Wisdom (Perception) check against your spell save DC lets an observer immediately recognize that something is off.

Amorphous: Having fully dedicated your body to Juiblex, your true form is now an amorphous blob (though you can maintain your former shape without issue) Transforming into your true form requires a bonus action, and has the following effects:
You absorb all items you are carrying or wearing into your form. Magic items continue to function, but you cannot make weapon attacks.
Your size increases by one category, affecting your space but not reach.
Your armor class is equal to 13 + your Dexterity modifier, and you gain resistance to slashing damage (unless dealt by a silver or magical weapon).
You gain a slam attack, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage plus the acid damage from your corrosive touch. If you have the Pact of the Blade feature, you instead deal 2d8 bludgeoning damage plus the acid damage from your corrosive touch, and the slam is treated as your pact weapon.
You may return to your former shape, or any shape you could take with disguise self, as an action.


I'm open to feedback about the classes themselves, but they’re secondary to their purpose of demonstrating how my ideas about prestige classes could work. Which I hope I’ve done well.

Man_Over_Game
2021-03-24, 05:33 PM
Part of the issues you're running into is the fact that it can be redundant with multiclassing, and a lot of the requirements (like stats, levels) are already existent with the current system (like how a Warlock/Sorcerer hybrid doesn't come online until Warlock 3, Sorcerer 3, but gets a huge power spike once it's in effect).

I tried to do what you did and ran into the same issues, so I changed my perspective of what a "prestige class" was. Since the game already had semi-hybrid features (like combining a mage's spell slots with a Paladin's Divine Smite), I looked at what was missing. And then I realized that several hybrids don't work for specific archetypes, due to incompatible stats or mechanics.

For instance, a Bard of Lore is known for gathering and sharing lost knowledge...but they aren't actually that smart, and they don't multiclass well with the class that's associated with using that knowledge: Wizards. And the reason for that is the pesky Charisma/Intelligence divide. The reason you don't see Wizard/Bard hybrids is because they're much worse together than combined.

So that's what I focused on.

There's a link in the description, but the general idea is that you take a restriction to how you level up your class in order to change the primary attribute of your "primary" class (which generally must be at least 1/2 of your levels). So if you want to be an Intelligence Ranger that uses his knowledge to trap and track monsters, go for it. You want to be a Dexterity Barbarian that relies on adrenaline for increased agility instead of Rage and increased strength, there's an option for that. Strength Monk, there's that too.

Most of the requirements lock you into a specific subclass, and each option is designed to be balanced around the default options you could have chosen. The reason an Intelligence Ranger is acceptable is because a Paladin/Sorcerer can do so much more. The reason Strength Monk is acceptable, despite the risk of abuse with Barbarian levels, is because it forces you into being the Open Hand Monk which not only has features that require nonviolence (which runs counter to Rage), but also because it's a MAD build that requires investment into Wisdom to maintain your AC and your status effects.

So it lets you build characters with unique restrictions and unique possibilities, which I like to think is the main purpose behind Prestige Classes. Not sure if it works for everyone, though.




I like the core concept you present - essentially having subclasses that aren't class specific and only available through multiclassing - I just feel that the majority of their benefits could also be covered with a Feat (IE Mounted Combatant). Some feats do come with prerequisites, and even very specific prerequisites (such as the lance requirement) could also be implied rather than required due to existing mechanics (like how lances are inherently stronger on mounts to begin with). If feats aren't quite strong enough, then have another level of feats (when you take Mounted Combatant a second time, add some bonuses to riding a horsey).




One solution I particularly mulled over (but never implimented) was to have a chart that gave very specific bonuses for having two levels of a certain class (or multiclass) combo that scaled to the lowest level of that combo, halved, then rounded up, called your Prestige Level for that combo.

For instance, being Cleric/Paladin gave you bonus Radiant Damage or healing equal to your Prestige level for those classes (so if you were a level 5 Paladin, level 3 Cleric, you dealt +2 Radiant Damage on your attacks and spells). Or Rogue/Any Spellcaster gives you a bonus to your Spellcasting Modifier while Hidden equal your Prestige level. Although this would be rather hard to balance correctly, it would allow people to take mathematically counterintuitive builds and feel justified in using them for very specific bonuses.

MrStabby
2021-03-24, 06:25 PM
Whilst I agree with a lot of what you propose I think you miss out on another limitation. Whilst you note that some things should be a full and complete class not a prestige class there is the limitation on the other side that things that are sufficiently niche can be reduced to a feat.

With this in mind I think there is another way to build something like the 3rd edition prestige classes in feal and function, and that is through feat chains. Qualify for a feat, which enables another feat which enables a third... is kind of like a class progression. Couple this with a richer set of alternative class features (and genuinely alternative - as powerful as the original, so not a power fix) and you should have the ability to invest in specialist elements AND to discard some elements for more flavoursome options.

To use your cavalier example - there is a mounted combatant feat, what if there were a mounted combat fighting style and some of the cavalier fighter sub-class abilities had been alternative class features rather than its own subclass? It would help make cavalier rangers, cavalier paladins, cavalier blade-pact warlocks and so on.


One of the flaws of the 3rd edition prestige classes was that it made it hard to capture what was happening in game. To look at your other example, the Thrall of Jubilex.

Imagine you are in a campain and you find a cult of Jubilex and you do some work for them and you think Jubilex is pretty cool and you want to associate more with him. You want to embrace the slime.

The essence of mechanical prerequisites means that for most characters this is not just mechanically rubbish but also unatainable. Your artificer alchemist inspired to create new slimes in his lab in honor of Jubilex can't pick this up. Your ranger inspired to go on a trek to discover wild oozes in downtime gets nothing. The ability to provide mechanical backup to roleplay decisions is rarely there.

Your fighter who comes home to find their family murdered by undead cant dip into an excorcist type class to exact revenge on undead without taking 5 levels of cleric then going into the prestige class? It would have to be a really long campaign to have this pay off.

There might be some scope to tie the two together. Have all of the prerequisites be a feat or a spell or something that a lot of characters can pick up - possibly even a bespoke one designed for the prestige class. This is your ticket to enter. Having a common baseline also ensures that the following class has something to build on - say for the excorcist you create a feat that gives another channel divinity use per short rest and the destroy undead use as a half feat - possibly even allow it to be taken multiple times. It then means that your exorcist class abilities can reference and enhance channel divinity as every member of the class will have this ability.

I think in terms of design, it is good to have broadly enhancing abilites. It is fine to have some go to waste. Thrall of Jubilex (to my mind) should do things like give extra acid damage on weapon attacks and give extra oozy spells on a spell list and give some defensive abilities and so on. Loads of content but not all of it will be of the same value to each different character type and different base classes taking the same prestige class could value different elements. Or there are a lot of "chose one of the following" elements in the classes so everyone who wants to serve a theme can find something to their tastes.

A bit of a fuzzy rambling response by me. I am sure my thoughts will clear up a bit later.

Morphic tide
2021-03-24, 08:31 PM
In my mind, the value of PRCs in 5e is in maintaining progression on what are normally extremely touchy multiclass builds, providing for niches that don't map to subclasses for not fitting the underlying class mechanics, and enable multiple classes to draw from one set of mechanics. All of these can theoretically be handled by feats and subclasses, but the former have harsh power budget issues and the latter's painfully constraining when speaking of broad mechanical goals *glares at Hexblade*.

You can't fit Extra Attack or 3rd-level spells in the schedule for feats, and a melee summoner is a torturous mess to fit in any class' subclass standards. One cannot simultaneously take Hexblade and a summoning-based Warlock subclass, and the dependencies are far too heavy for feats, so a tier 2 "tactical summoner" Prestige Class giving Extra Attack at 5th and bonuses to make interrupting summons work, then a tier 3 that resolves applicability problems of low-level summons.

This doubles to unclog certain underlying dysfunctions, like solving the Ranger's action economy problems with a feature substituting Extra Attack with getting to make an attack as part of casting a spell, which simultaneously fixes up similar but lesser issues that Warlocks end up with, and gives full spellcasters more use of their own buffs and debuffs.

PhoenixPhyre
2021-03-24, 09:38 PM
Honestly, if I were to do "prestige" "classes" in 5e, I wouldn't. Not as such. Instead, they'd be closer to the original intent. Rewards for gaining prestige with particular organizations in the world. And they'd sit alongside classes and levels, not replacing class progression. A parallel progression track, based not on experience but on gaining in-world rank with the organization.

Something like 3-4 "ranks", granting access to things specific to that organization.

So ranking up in the Holy Knights of Holy Church's Holy Organization might grant (total spitball here):

Novice: Minor cleric spellcasting, something like MI: Cleric
Initiate: Call for Purifying Power--dispel curses/banish evil/stuff like that
Dedicate: etc
Sworn: etc

And you'd rank up by doing stuff for those organizations. Effectively a "feat chain" that doesn't use your feat slots and is tied to the campaign world.

MoleMage
2021-03-25, 01:15 AM
Honestly, if I were to do "prestige" "classes" in 5e, I wouldn't. Not as such. Instead, they'd be closer to the original intent. Rewards for gaining prestige with particular organizations in the world. And they'd sit alongside classes and levels, not replacing class progression. A parallel progression track, based not on experience but on gaining in-world rank with the organization.

Something like 3-4 "ranks", granting access to things specific to that organization.

So ranking up in the Holy Knights of Holy Church's Holy Organization might grant (total spitball here):

Novice: Minor cleric spellcasting, something like MI: Cleric
Initiate: Call for Purifying Power--dispel curses/banish evil/stuff like that
Dedicate: etc
Sworn: etc

And you'd rank up by doing stuff for those organizations. Effectively a "feat chain" that doesn't use your feat slots and is tied to the campaign world.

I workshopped a version similar to this a while back, I could maybe dig it out of mothballs if someone wanted to use it for jumping-off points.

I had evolving legendary weapons on the same mechanic too.

Anymage
2021-03-25, 07:38 AM
Honestly, if I were to do "prestige" "classes" in 5e, I wouldn't. Not as such. Instead, they'd be closer to the original intent. Rewards for gaining prestige with particular organizations in the world. And they'd sit alongside classes and levels, not replacing class progression. A parallel progression track, based not on experience but on gaining in-world rank with the organization.

Something like 3-4 "ranks", granting access to things specific to that organization.

So ranking up in the Holy Knights of Holy Church's Holy Organization might grant (total spitball here):

Novice: Minor cleric spellcasting, something like MI: Cleric
Initiate: Call for Purifying Power--dispel curses/banish evil/stuff like that
Dedicate: etc
Sworn: etc

And you'd rank up by doing stuff for those organizations. Effectively a "feat chain" that doesn't use your feat slots and is tied to the campaign world.

For the "prestigious organization" part of prestige classes, fully agreed. It might be worth asking how many of the perks should be added to your character's personal capabilities vs. what should just be the natural consequences of belonging to such an organization, but that shouldn't be too hard to figure out in principle.

More generally on the idea of prestige classes, I do think that there is room for multiclass "classes" that don't make sense for a first level character picking it as their first class level. The transformational PRCs in 3.x largely count as that. That's probably best applied by giving an RP requirement and having the mechanical requirement simply be meeting whatever character level to be in the tier of play the class is built around.

(Although to counter my point above. While in theory the idea has potential, I really don't want to see any officially published PRCs because once the doors are open, expect to see bloat kick in very soon.)

GreatWyrmGold
2021-03-25, 08:29 AM
I tried to do what you did and ran into the same issues, so I changed my perspective of what a "prestige class" was. Since the game already had semi-hybrid features (like combining a mage's spell slots with a Paladin's Divine Smite), I looked at what was missing. And then I realized that several hybrids don't work for specific archetypes, due to incompatible stats or mechanics.

For instance, a Bard of Lore is known for gathering and sharing lost knowledge...but they aren't actually that smart, and they don't multiclass well with the class that's associated with using that knowledge: Wizards. And the reason for that is the pesky Charisma/Intelligence divide. The reason you don't see Wizard/Bard hybrids is because they're much worse together than combined.

So that's what I focused on.

There's a link in the description, but the general idea is that you take a restriction to how you level up your class in order to change the primary attribute of your "primary" class (which generally must be at least 1/2 of your levels). So if you want to be an Intelligence Ranger that uses his knowledge to trap and track monsters, go for it. You want to be a Dexterity Barbarian that relies on adrenaline for increased agility instead of Rage and increased strength, there's an option for that. Strength Monk, there's that too.
Most of the requirements lock you into a specific subclass, and each option is designed to be balanced around the default options you could have chosen. The reason an Intelligence Ranger is acceptable is because a Paladin/Sorcerer can do so much more. The reason Strength Monk is acceptable, despite the risk of abuse with Barbarian levels, is because it forces you into being the Open Hand Monk which not only has features that require nonviolence (which runs counter to Rage), but also because it's a MAD build that requires investment into Wisdom to maintain your AC and your status effects.

So it lets you build characters with unique restrictions and unique possibilities, which I like to think is the main purpose behind Prestige Classes. Not sure if it works for everyone, though.
It doesn't. For instance, it doesn't work for me.

For starters, not all prestige classes are just the intersection of two other classes. Looking at my examples, what class lets you turn into a giant blob monster or improves your mounted combat abilities? Limiting prestige options to combinations of base classes—even with effort taken to make weird combos less terrible than they otherwise would be—is pretty dang limiting. I like how the Thug rogue actually changes the class, but it doesn't change the class much and it's the only prestige option that does.

Also, and I feel like I shouldn't need to say this, but limiting subclass options (and often multiclassing options) really limits the playing field. Some of it is for balance, which, fine, but doesn't that suggest your entire approach was flawed in the first place? You're already limited by existing classes, and you need to restrict things even further to make the results playable.

I get that this makes multiclassing a little more flexible, and some prestige classes absolutely can be mimicked by multiclassing (hey there mystic theurge), but the most interesting ones (to me) are the ones which give completely novel abilities.



I like the core concept you present - essentially having subclasses that aren't class specific and only available through multiclassing - I just feel that the majority of their benefits could also be covered with a Feat (IE Mounted Combatant). Some feats do come with prerequisites, and even very specific prerequisites (such as the lance requirement) could also be implied rather than required due to existing mechanics (like how lances are inherently stronger on mounts to begin with). If feats aren't quite strong enough, then have another level of feats (when you take Mounted Combatant a second time, add some bonuses to riding a horsey).

With this in mind I think there is another way to build something like the 3rd edition prestige classes in feal and function, and that is through feat chains. Qualify for a feat, which enables another feat which enables a third... is kind of like a class progression. Couple this with a richer set of alternative class features (and genuinely alternative - as powerful as the original, so not a power fix) and you should have the ability to invest in specialist elements AND to discard some elements for more flavoursome options.
I didn't like feat chains much in 3.5 (though how much of that is the concept and how much of it was the pointlessness of some of the prerequisite feats is hard to determine). Looking at how feats work in 5e, they would be so much worse.
Feats are an optional rule. Basically everyone plays with them, but still.
You hardly get any feats in 5e. If you're fine going without ASIs, you only get two feats by 9th level as opposed to the four a 3.5 character would, if that character didn't get any bonus feats. This both means feat chains monopolize your feats more than they would in 3.5 (non-fighters taking excessively long feat chains aside), and that progress on the feat chains is a lot slower. This latter point isn't a huge problem for feat chains as feat chains, but it's not great for prestige class replacements.
Feats in 5e have fewer prerequisites in general than feats in 3.5. To pick two prominent examples, the Healer feat doesn't require proficiency in Medicine, nor does Polearm Master require polearm proficiency. Most prerequisites are racial, with the remainder being roughly evenly split between armor feats and "you must have at least a decent number for an attribute you probably need to use this feat". Having feat chains in an environment where so few feats have any kind of prerequisite feels...weird.
Beyond that, you can fit a lot more in six levels than in three feats without breaking the system.


To use your cavalier example - there is a mounted combatant feat, what if there were a mounted combat fighting style and some of the cavalier fighter sub-class abilities had been alternative class features rather than its own subclass? It would help make cavalier rangers, cavalier paladins, cavalier blade-pact warlocks and so on.
For starters, you'd need to design a separate cavalier subclass for each class.


One of the flaws of the 3rd edition prestige classes was that it made it hard to capture what was happening in game. To look at your other example, the Thrall of Jubilex...
To summarize the description: 3.5 prestige classes were flawed because they were specific. Alchemists designing artificial oozes and rangers who discover wild oozes can't become thralls of Juiblex. Fighters who find their family murdered by undead in the middle of a campaign can't pick up an exorcist prestige class.

On the second point, I'd say this is less a point specific to prestige classes and more a point about how D&D character builds can't adapt to changing circumstances very well. If you want an optimized character, you probably need to stick to your specific plan from session 1 to the final boss. If you just want an un-terrible character you have more flexibility, but you can't just slap levels of cleric on a fighter and expect it to be good if you weren't planning to do so from when you rolled Attributes, no matter how much sense becoming a man of the cloth makes from a RP perspective. And while the reverse—a cleric losing faith in their god and turning to something else—can be a really potent story beat, there's no way to pull it off in-game unless the cleric immediately gets a rebound investment with another deity.

As to the former, the reason that alchemists and rangers serving Juiblex can't take the Thrall class is that the Thrall class is designed specifically for a specific kind of Juiblex servant. Juiblex's cultists' R&D and big goop hunters aren't Juiblex cultists, any more than Umbrella scientists are Albert Wesker or random churchgoers are priests. You can argue that this specificity is a bad thing, but being specific is part of what makes prestige classes so interesting to me.


There might be some scope to tie the two together. Have all of the prerequisites be a feat or a spell or something that a lot of characters can pick up - possibly even a bespoke one designed for the prestige class. This is your ticket to enter. Having a common baseline also ensures that the following class has something to build on - say for the excorcist you create a feat that gives another channel divinity use per short rest and the destroy undead use as a half feat - possibly even allow it to be taken multiple times. It then means that your exorcist class abilities can reference and enhance channel divinity as every member of the class will have this ability.
Um...you do realize that this applies to class-specific prerequisites as well, right? The Thrall of Juiblex requires the Mask of Many Faces invocation, and like half of its abilities change how that works. You don't need to design a special prerequisite feat to have something all members of a class will possess—you just need to have a prerequisite.


I think in terms of design, it is good to have broadly enhancing abilites. It is fine to have some go to waste. Thrall of Jubilex (to my mind) should do things like give extra acid damage on weapon attacks and give extra oozy spells on a spell list and give some defensive abilities and so on. Loads of content but not all of it will be of the same value to each different character type and different base classes taking the same prestige class could value different elements.
Characters with a few oozy spells and acid damage on weapon attacks are nice and all, but they aren't slimy shapeshifters. The point of the Thrall of Juiblex wasn't to let characters add a few Juiblex-themed abilities to their repertoire—a feat would have been perfectly fine for that. The point was to create a unique, specific kind of Juiblex-themed class.
I get that you just don't like specific classes, but that seems to be your entire argument. "Prestige classes shouldn't be specific. How about you make them not specific?"


Or there are a lot of "chose one of the following" elements in the classes so everyone who wants to serve a theme can find something to their tastes.
I generally like modular systems, but I'm not sure they would work here. If there are a couple of related concepts in your prestige class, just use subclasses—they're a bit limited for my modularity tastes, but the system exists, so it seems silly not to use it. If there aren't, then offering modular abilities just dilutes the focus of the class, both mechanical and flavorful.

Man_Over_Game
2021-03-25, 12:28 PM
Also, and I feel like I shouldn't need to say this, but limiting subclass options (and often multiclassing options) really limits the playing field. Some of it is for balance, which, fine, but doesn't that suggest your entire approach was flawed in the first place? You're already limited by existing classes, and you need to restrict things even further to make the results playable.

I might be missing something, but why is that different from 3.5's, or the proposed, prestige classes?

Even the more general-purpose prestige class proposed essentially requires:

Martial weapon proficiency (No Rogues), 13 Dexterity (No Paladins or Strength-based Fighters), and mostly leverages melee-centric features.

Which essentially leaves Rangers or dual-wield Fighters.

I do think that adding limitations for only a marginal benefit that's mostly targeted towards identity than power curve is exactly what both of our solutions are designed to do.

In a sense, your solution to having a "sociable Cleric" might be by requiring a Charisma limitation and some kind of people-related accomplisment, compensated by getting some kind of power related to convincing people, while mine requires the player to not have Sorcerer or Warlock levels and is compensated by allowing them to use Charisma instead of Wisdom (which is, itself, a unique mechanical change to their gameplay that modifies how they use their existing features).


I guess, to ask it simply, why is one solution more-or-less restrictive, and another is more-or-less beneficial? It's all theorycrafting, so I just want to nail down what is-or-isn't acceptable as a solution.

GreatWyrmGold
2021-03-26, 11:10 AM
I might be missing something, but why is that different from 3.5's, or the proposed, prestige classes?

Even the more general-purpose prestige class proposed essentially requires:

Martial weapon proficiency (No Rogues), 13 Dexterity (No Paladins or Strength-based Fighters), and mostly leverages melee-centric features.

Which essentially leaves Rangers or dual-wield Fighters.

I do think that adding limitations for only a marginal benefit that's mostly targeted towards identity than power curve is exactly what both of our solutions are designed to do.

...

I guess, to ask it simply, why is one solution more-or-less restrictive, and another is more-or-less beneficial?
1. Is a 13 in Dexterity really that taxing?
2. "Why is this more restrictive?" isn't the right question.

I'm not trying to make expand the character creation space by making different hybrids viable. You actively hindering that goal by limiting the kinds of hybrids that your options can be used with. Alright, I see why you banned Disciple of Oghma from war wizardry, but why limit Wis-paladins to the Oath of the Ancients? Why limit Dex-barbarians to Path of the Berserker? Why can Arcane Archers use Wisdom, but not Eldritch Knights? Why can't non-divining wizards be wise? Wizard literally means wise-man!
The only advantages your method has are versatility and simplicity, and you're torpedoing one of those with the stringent restrictions. Most prestige options effectively only apply to one character concept, without adding anything to make that concept pop beyond making the numbers work a little better.

Prestige classes are generally restrictive, sometimes to the point of defining a character concept, but they give you more for it. If you take a (good) prestige class, you get a bunch of unique abilities that you couldn't get without it. Look at the dragon disciple prestige class from 3.5; no little tweaks or expanded multiclassing option can let a sorcerer slowly become a half-dragon. (Not even something like dragon shaman or dragonfire adept.) It spreads those benefits out way too thin and doesn't meaningfully advance the sorcerer's abilities, but it's still a good example of what prestige classes can do that multiclassing can't.

TL;DR: It's not that prestige options are more restrictive than prestige classes, it's that prestige options don't give you as much in exchange for being restrictive.


In a sense, your solution to having a "sociable Cleric" might be by requiring a Charisma limitation and some kind of people-related accomplisment, compensated by getting some kind of power related to convincing people, while mine requires the player to not have Sorcerer or Warlock levels and is compensated by allowing them to use Charisma instead of Wisdom (which is, itself, a unique mechanical change to their gameplay that modifies how they use their existing features).
It really isn't. Once the dice hit the table, the only differences between a Wis-cleric and a Cha-cleric are what multiclass options work and which skills are boosted. They cast the same spells to do the same things, and probably with the same numbers (DCs &c). That's not a bad thing, but the glaring absence of a good thing is still worth pointing out.

Durazno
2021-03-27, 12:09 PM
Modular progression could be used to make a prestige class cover a wider range of base classes. If you wanted to have a prestige class representing membership in the Cerulean Sign (an organization that protects the world from extraplanar threats), the first level could include a list of benefits to choose from like "you can use your sneak attack on aberrations, even if they're supposed to be immune" and "you can turn aberrations as though they were undead."

You could also do this with a set of separate archetypes for each class, but what if your party joins at level 7?

BerzerkerUnit
2021-03-28, 12:13 AM
Here's how I do it:

Prestige Backgrounds which include bonus feats/racial features/subclass features that are granted at particular levels.

Campaign starts, Act 1 ends ~level 5. Characters get downtime and special dispensation to join/train with an established organization with significant prestige. At the end of that time they get to choose a free feat representing the specialized training they received. Maybe Actor if they worked with the Intelligence bureau or Dungeon Delver if they joined an Archeological society.

If a player doesn't have something like that (maybe playing a race that's discriminated against) they might get something else. I had a setting where Kenku were servants of the True Death. At level 5 the PC met vulture based Kenku that tought her how to consume the flesh of the fallen to aid their passing. It was a gross speak with dead ritual. Later she would nearly die but discover where many of the Raven Kenku were (rolling with the True Death beyond the farthest shore). She learned their songs and awoke with the ability to drain life force with her talons. She was a ranger, it was a d6+dex off hand attack that regained HP and allowed her to halt her aging when she killed humanoids.

Did she want crazy death powers? It wasn't discussed before hand, but she enjoyed them and none of this interfered with her Ranger progression, they were all just perks unique to her story.

Is it more work to create something for every player? Yuuuup. But does it cover all your bases? Double yup. You don't have to worry as much about strange interactions, the Player doesn't get saddled with an analytical paralysis when leveling. In game they get to toggle default schtick from their build or a fun widget you gave them that reinforces themes of your game or their personal narrative.

But that's how I did it. Good luck whatever you choose!

Composer99
2021-03-28, 11:12 AM
Honestly, if I were to do "prestige" "classes" in 5e, I wouldn't. Not as such. Instead, they'd be closer to the original intent. Rewards for gaining prestige with particular organizations in the world. And they'd sit alongside classes and levels, not replacing class progression. A parallel progression track, based not on experience but on gaining in-world rank with the organization.

Something like 3-4 "ranks", granting access to things specific to that organization.

So ranking up in the Holy Knights of Holy Church's Holy Organization might grant (total spitball here):

Novice: Minor cleric spellcasting, something like MI: Cleric
Initiate: Call for Purifying Power--dispel curses/banish evil/stuff like that
Dedicate: etc
Sworn: etc

And you'd rank up by doing stuff for those organizations. Effectively a "feat chain" that doesn't use your feat slots and is tied to the campaign world.

This is similar to the perks one accrues by building up piety (I think it's called?) in Mythic Odysseys of Theros.

Dominosh
2021-03-28, 11:42 AM
I really like the idea of using the piety/rank/renown system for PrC, and I haven't thought about it before.
Another option I remember seeing online is using variant features for Prc, it's like a subclass but you exchange core mechanics of the class to focus on a niche.

for the cavalier, a fighter PrC will look like : spirited charge + Two ride as one replacing at 13th level 2nd use of indomitable, terrifying charge replacing 14th level ASI, Two fight as one replacing 16th level ASI and dread shock replacing another use of indomitable at 17th.

And the same can be done for most classes, the main problem rises at spellcasting classes, will add features to probably "dead" levels but the same will happen with a 3.5 like PrC.

MrStabby
2021-03-29, 08:49 AM
Yeah, I think the Piety options are probably a really good way of doing this. It seems quite an appropriate system.