How do you know when it's time to change characters?

[Ukala]

How do you know when it’s time to change characters? Do you ever get to a point where you think the character you’re playing just isn’t what you wanted them to be when you created them? Do you weigh what the party needs against what you’re excited to play?

I’ve been playing a Wage Mage gnome wizard in Avernus for about a year, and we just hit level 7. I’ve never really felt like I’ve connected with my character- I imagined her as being kind of aloof when I created her and wrote her backstory, but in retrospect, and playing over Roll20, that means that she’s just got a lot of internal monologue that is really hard to RP. I also realized this week that never filled out the Trait/Bond/Ideal/Flaw section of the character sheet, and once I did that, I felt like I had a better handle on who she and what she wants, but I’m worried that I’ve spent way too long not really know why she was doing what she was doing to change that now. Playing a wizard is also tough in Avernus, with all the magic resistance, and I’ve only recently started to feel useful now that I’m getting interesting and powerful spells.

All that being said, we just confronted our cleric/warlock about his lying, stealing, and murdering innocent children, and he left the party to fully embrace his fiendish patron, so now is a good time to switch out characters, and I’m wondering if I should do it. I’ve got an interesting character (Githyanki Battlesmith Artificer) with a good backstory and clear motivation that I’d be excited to play. I’m worried about a few things- first, with our cleric gone, we have no divine caster, and despite being completely evil and obviously insane, he was probably the most useful member of the party. Second, the role I fill in the party is pretty specific now, and though the artificer would be able to fill some of the support that my current character does, it’s never going to have the power and versatility of a high-level wizard. We’ve also got a Swashbuckler, a polearm fighter/paladin, a Swords Bard, and a confusing triple multiclass character that the DM is probably going to kill soon anyway. The DM hinted that it would be good for us to have a divine caster, but that I should play whatever is going to be fun.

So, what do you think? Is playing a wizard from levels 7-13 so different from levels 1-6 that it’s going to become a lot more fun just because I can turn into a T-Rex now? Am I never going to recover from a year of fighting to figure out my character’s motivation? Should I just play a Cleric because not having a cleric in Avernus is a terrible idea?

[Trask]

For my opinion, I don't really worry about class composition or balance all that much. I find that it doesn't tend to matter unless you're playing a tightly optimized and balanced campaign, which Descent into Avernus isn't. Individual character decisions and the luck of the dice are much more significant.

And I don't think there's anything at all wrong with switching out characters to better fit the campaign you are in or just because you are getting bored. Sometimes a character just isn't a good fit. I played a pretty generic dwarf barbarian for 5 levels before switching him out for a character who was the lost princess of the kingdom we were trying to save. Needless to say, I had a LOT more fun and it was a better, more character connecting experience because my character had a lot more invested in the story.

Maybe a more controversial take, but I think a flow of characters moving in and out of the campaign can be very healthy for the game, whether through characters leaving to fulfill some other destiny, take up a position as a lord, or become a villain, or just plain dying. It lets the party breathe and adds new blood and new life to the game, when not overused.

So I would encourage you to play your githyanki artificer, if you think it will resonate better with you and connect better to the campaign.

[strangebloke]

When you fail your third death saving throw LMAOOOOO.

Okay but more seriously if you're feeling like changing characters, spend some time looking over your backstory, your equipment, your traits/bonds/flaws. If that doesn't immediately make you feel better about them, try to identify what about the character is bothering you. If its something you can change (by talking to your DM or by changing how you roleplay them) then do so.

...If you do all that and you're sure you want to change?

Do so.

[LumenPlacidum]

There is no amount of mechanics that will make you enjoy playing a character with whom you just do not connect. You can enjoy a character on those grounds, but usually not for a year.

That said, you can "change characters" without changing which character you're actually playing. Talk with your DM and see if you can make something crazy happen to your character while they're in Avernus (where a lot of crazy crap happens, frankly). What I mean is... your character walks up to a strange device which actually happens to be a soul "bank" of sorts. When you foolishly touch it, your character is irrevocably changed, swapping his own mind with one of the minds within the device. Then, have a plan to try to "restore" your physical appearance to what it once was (Githyanki you say?)

Or, go the other way. Spellcasting in Hell is "twisted" in certain ways. Maybe when you try to mind control something, you simply insert your own mind into their body and your previous body becomes the enemy. After a simple, yet confusing fight, you now find yourself in a new situation with an entirely new collection of physical impulses. Did some of the previous inhabitant's mentality stem ultimately from what they were instead of who? You're about to explore that!

Have your DM put you in dire enough straits that you actually sign a contract with a devil. This puts blocks on your mind that prevent access to certain parts therein, and they also give you powers that you didn't have before! Just... change your character levels to be whatever. They can even warp your body into whatever form.

[Ukala]

When you fail your third death saving throw LMAOOOOO.

Okay but more seriously if you're feeling like changing characters, spend some time looking over your backstory, your equipment, your traits/bonds/flaws. If that doesn't immediately make you feel better about them, try to identify what about the character is bothering you. If its something you can change (by talking to your DM or by changing how you roleplay them) then do so.

...If you do all that and you're sure you want to change?

Do so.

I do think I screwed up at the very beginning- I got spooked because we kept almost dying at level 1, so when we hit level 2, I went for War Mage instead of Divination, and I think that was the wrong choice. My DM is happy to let me make changes, but it'll involve making a deal with a devil. I've already done one of those deals to switch out some cantrips, and changing my entire subclass would be pretty costly...

[Ukala]

For my opinion, I don't really worry about class composition or balance all that much. I find that it doesn't tend to matter unless you're playing a tightly optimized and balanced campaign, which Descent into Avernus isn't. Individual character decisions and the luck of the dice are much more significant.

And I don't think there's anything at all wrong with switching out characters to better fit the campaign you are in or just because you are getting bored. Sometimes a character just isn't a good fit. I played a pretty generic dwarf barbarian for 5 levels before switching him out for a character who was the lost princess of the kingdom we were trying to save. Needless to say, I had a LOT more fun and it was a better, more character connecting experience because my character had a lot more invested in the story.

Maybe a more controversial take, but I think a flow of characters moving in and out of the campaign can be very healthy for the game, whether through characters leaving to fulfill some other destiny, take up a position as a lord, or become a villain, or just plain dying. It lets the party breathe and adds new blood and new life to the game, when not overused.

So I would encourage you to play your githyanki artificer, if you think it will resonate better with you and connect better to the campaign.

That's an interesting take, for sure. My backstory involved some trauma long in the past that's somehow supposed to be motivating her now, and it's just not landing. I'm having to jump through too many mental and emotional hoops for it to make sense why she's adventuring in Avernus. The artificer I envisioned has a very clear reason for being in Avernus, and it's something he hopes for in the future (my character hopes to reunite the Githyanki and Githzerai by finding the Silver Sword of Gith that was lost in the Nine Hells when Gith went to go meet Tiamat), not something he's processing or running form in the past, and that just feels like a lot stronger, more immediate way to figure out how a character makes decisions.

[Trask]

That's an interesting take, for sure. My backstory involved some trauma long in the past that's somehow supposed to be motivating her now, and it's just not landing. I'm having to jump through too many mental and emotional hoops for it to make sense why she's adventuring in Avernus. The artificer I envisioned has a very clear reason for being in Avernus, and it's something he hopes for in the future (my character hopes to reunite the Githyanki and Githzerai by finding the Silver Sword of Gith that was lost in the Nine Hells when Gith went to go meet Tiamat), not something he's processing or running form in the past, and that just feels like a lot stronger, more immediate way to figure out how a character makes decisions.

I agree. Your Gith character's motivations sound a lot more immediate and relevant to the game than your current character's, and therefore more likely to inform character decisions and come to a resolution.

I think my most satisfying characters have always emerged from a harmony between their motivations and what the campaign actually is. As you said originally, you can write a wonderful backstory, but if it never comes up and remains a private monologue, it's no good.

[strangebloke]

I do think I screwed up at the very beginning- I got spooked because we kept almost dying at level 1, so when we hit level 2, I went for War Mage instead of Divination, and I think that was the wrong choice. My DM is happy to let me make changes, but it'll involve making a deal with a devil. I've already done one of those deals to switch out some cantrips, and changing my entire subclass would be pretty costly...
Personally I don't know that a single subclass is going to ever make or break a character for me, but for you it could be different. If there are RP consequences to switching, then definitely avoid it.

What do you think the issue is? Do you not like your character's aesthetic? Do you feel that they're weak? Is there another party member who you feel does all the same things you do?

If you can answer why warmage is bothering you, I think that would get us a lot closer to a solution.

[traskomancer]

I'm with Trask; it can definitely be fun to have PCs enter and leave the campaign purely for plot and to change things up. You can even have PCs return after a hiatus. You can have fun figuring out what they were doing in the meantime.

And as for the main question, change characters when your current one isn't fun. The only exceptions I'd put is if you've already changed a couple of times in the campaign, or if there's a good reason your GM or group has for not wanting you to.

[Trask]

I'm with Trask; it can definitely be fun to have PCs enter and leave the campaign purely for plot and to change things up. You can even have PCs return after a hiatus. You can have fun figuring out what they were doing in the meantime.

And as for the main question, change characters when your current one isn't fun. The only exceptions I'd put is if you've already changed a couple of times in the campaign, or if there's a good reason your GM or group has for not wanting you to.

Nice username.

[Sandeman]

In our group we allow people to switch out charachters basically anytime.
Its better to invent a short story why this happened than to have some charachters suddenly becoming extreme risk takers.

[Kane0]

- When my character's arc is complete or has no further reason to continue with the party.
- When I have not enjoyed playing my character at all for multiple consecutive sessions (I try for 3).
- When the DM needs to make an example out of one of us

I would typically aim for character retirement over death, but there are times where a violent send-off is in order.

[MoiMagnus]

Is playing a wizard from levels 7-13 so different from levels 1-6 that it’s going to become a lot more fun just because I can turn into a T-Rex now?

No.

If the level 5-6 didn't already felt much better than the level 1-4, the level 7+ will not improve the gameplay for you significantly. Additionally, while it is GM-dependent, you should start encountering counterspells, so don't base your fun on a single spell.

[If level 5-6 were "it feels much better by I still need a little more", then level 7+ will be able to deliver]

About Polymorph: It's a very powerful spell, and T-Rex is fun, but often better on an ally than on yourself, as while in T-Rex, you only have a +4 to concentration checks without advantage (you don't keep your feats, class features or save proficiency while transformed) so you have at least 25% chance of losing concentration each time you get hit. Additionally, don't forget that a T-Rex's attack are non-magical, so higher level enemies will take half-damage.

[Theodoxus]

How much divine magic do you think the party needs, or is there a specific group of spells? The bard will get some, as an artificer, you'll get some too. I've never played nor run Avernus, so I don't know what divine magic would be useful...

Have you considered going with a more arcane flavored divine caster? Divine Soul Sorcerer, Celestial Warlock, Arcane or Light Cleric? Each would bring a little more divine oomph than a Battlesmith, though I totally get they're different, so you might not want to go that route.

As for your original question, I'm very mercurial... and a bane to most DMs. I tire of characters pretty quickly if I'm not being useful to the party (which is why I gravitate to Clerics and Druids). I don't need to be the Face or even the leader of a party, but I want my contributions to be noted and memorable... just doing damage doesn't do that for me, so the few times I've played a Fighter, Barbarian or Warlock, I abandoned the character pretty quickly... It's just my personal opinion of what 'fun' means.

[KorvinStarmast]

- When my character's arc is complete or has no further reason to continue with the party.
- When I have not enjoyed playing my character at all for multiple consecutive sessions (I try for 3).
- When the DM needs to make an example out of one of us

I would typically aim for character retirement over death, but there are times where a violent send-off is in order. This is how our group does it.
1. KorvinStarmast (my original 5e cleric) and his dwarf paladin friend died due to a combat going horribly wrong. The other three party members barely escaped with their one or two HP.

2. My life cleric retired when she got pregnant. She decided to stay in the town where she discovered "Whoa, I am pregnant!" (It was day 17 by the DM's count since that evening ...)

3. Our Ranger/Rogue left the party with two ladies whom the party had rescued, going off to "settle some scores" since the player wanted to try out a warlock.

4. Our War Cleric, different party, decided that he'd gone about as far as he could with that character, and now has a sorcerer MC of some sort. (That one's going to be a bit tricky to adapt to since he was a front liner and now he's a squishy).

If the player isn't getting the "yeah, I like this" vibe from a character, then it is time to change.

For the OP:

1. A best practice is to work with the DM and the rest of the group; that helps get buy in and allows for a solid narrative foundation for the change.

2. As you have discovered, putting the trait, ideal, bond and flaw into the character from day 1 really helps character creation, but a PC often grows and changes during play as they have various adventures.

[da newt]

If you don't like your PC, you should trade them out. It's that simple. If you don't enjoy playing them, then don't.

Personally, I prefer to have my PCs go out in a blaze of glory vice just quitting, but do what makes sense to you, your PC, the situation, and your DM.

Not that long ago I was playing a character I really liked, but because of who he was and his ideology, there was no way he'd want to keep adventuring with this party - they had a special way of making everything they touched worse, everyone around them died. He learned that folks are selfish barbarians prone to violence, so he went back to his little isolated corner of the world where the people are kind to each other. Since then I've been playing a much more self-centered little ****, and it's been much more fun.

The reason to play a game is to enjoy it. Find a way to do that.

[MrStabby]

I think you have a bit of a challenge in that you are playing a pre-set campaign.

Normally I would say your first step is to have a chat with the DM and possibly the other players. Say waht you want from your character and how the game isn't delivering it. It isn't that the DM has done anything wrong or that there is anything wrong with the campaign, but just that it is not matching your expectations.

Securing some character development time for your character through a sub-plot or interactions with other characters can work, but not always. A change in the campaign to support your desired role is another thing that will help. Both of these can be harder if the DM is not creating the campaign themselves.

So nothing wrong with swapping out a character, but have a chat with the DM first. It may be that something can be fixed for your current one (given it was your first choice I am assuming you like the idea more). Also, if you are brining something new in, run it past the DM; if you want to play a sneaky lock picking character then it might run into similar problems in a a campaign with few doors/locks.

But don't ever stick with a character you are not enjoying - if there is something that appeals to you more, then play that.

[Droppeddead]

About Polymorph: It's a very powerful spell, and T-Rex is fun, but often better on an ally than on yourself, as while in T-Rex, you only have a +4 to concentration checks without advantage (you don't keep your feats, class features or save proficiency while transformed) so you have at least 25% chance of losing concentration each time you get hit. Additionally, don't forget that a T-Rex's attack are non-magical, so higher level enemies will take half-damage.

Polymorph the Monk. Taekwondosaurus Rex for the win.

[da newt]

Polymorph the Monk. Taekwondosaurus Rex for the win.

- Except for the arms ... :smallbiggrin:

[Ukala]

Personally I don't know that a single subclass is going to ever make or break a character for me, but for you it could be different. If there are RP consequences to switching, then definitely avoid it.

What do you think the issue is? Do you not like your character's aesthetic? Do you feel that they're weak? Is there another party member who you feel does all the same things you do?

If you can answer why warmage is bothering you, I think that would get us a lot closer to a solution.

It's less to do with a specific issue with War Mage- it's an awesome subclass, and feels really strong to play- and more that I feel like I dishonored the character by making a decision about her out of fear of dying, and not because it's what I thought actually fit her. She was a wandering nomadic desert-dwelling stargazer, and has no martial experience in her background at all.

[Ukala]

No.

If the level 5-6 didn't already felt much better than the level 1-4, the level 7+ will not improve the gameplay for you significantly. Additionally, while it is GM-dependent, you should start encountering counterspells, so don't base your fun on a single spell.

[If level 5-6 were "it feels much better by I still need a little more", then level 7+ will be able to deliver]

About Polymorph: It's a very powerful spell, and T-Rex is fun, but often better on an ally than on yourself, as while in T-Rex, you only have a +4 to concentration checks without advantage (you don't keep your feats, class features or save proficiency while transformed) so you have at least 25% chance of losing concentration each time you get hit. Additionally, don't forget that a T-Rex's attack are non-magical, so higher level enemies will take half-damage.

Levels 5-6 actually have felt much different. I finally feel like I'm making useful contributions to the party, after 4 levels of seeing if anyone needed any magic detected or languages comprehended. Haste and Fly have both saved PCs lives. I hear you about Polymorph; I was mostly just using it as an example of me being able to cast more powerful, higher-tier spells. I imagine using it primarily to turn party members who are about to die into something with a ton of HP.

[Ukala]

If you don't like your PC, you should trade them out. It's that simple. If you don't enjoy playing them, then don't.

Personally, I prefer to have my PCs go out in a blaze of glory vice just quitting, but do what makes sense to you, your PC, the situation, and your DM.

Not that long ago I was playing a character I really liked, but because of who he was and his ideology, there was no way he'd want to keep adventuring with this party - they had a special way of making everything they touched worse, everyone around them died. He learned that folks are selfish barbarians prone to violence, so he went back to his little isolated corner of the world where the people are kind to each other. Since then I've been playing a much more self-centered little ****, and it's been much more fun.

The reason to play a game is to enjoy it. Find a way to do that.

That's actually not far from what I'm playing. She just wants to be left alone to travel the planes and do research, discovering new things, and not getting involved with this awful blood war between devils and demons.

[Ukala]

Polymorph the Monk. Taekwondosaurus Rex for the win.

Best suggestion ever! Guess I'm sticking with the wizard!