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View Full Version : The Best Destruction Sphere Dip (Spheres in Review)



SangoProduction
2021-03-25, 12:26 AM
This one's going to be a bit different from the rest of the SiR series. I have touted the value of Destruction sphere as simply being the one-talent wonder.
You get the majority of the benefits in a single talent, with additional talents simply adding flexibility and versatility. They add more ways to do the thing, but rarely do the thing "better." (Excluding natural power variations between different talents.) And I have to say, for the most part, I find that really nice.

But that does raise the question of the title. What's the best you can do with the absolute minimum investment?

So, let's get right on into it.

Fore Note: Obviously, the "best" talent is completely situational. If you're going to be fighting ice swarms, obviously a fireball is going to be superior to an acid ray. Unless they for some... anyway! Shh!
I'm just going to assume that there is no rhyme nor reason to the monsters you encounter, and they are basically random monsters. I also don't think I'm going to "rate" or "rank" them. These are all very solid choices for your talent.

The following 2 drawbacks are really what make Destruction sphere such a knock out wonder as a dip. You can have your fire-breathing kobold, your lightning dasher (pre-USOP), or whatever "special attack" you want. And it will scale with you. I love it!
Unfortunately, in order to get any more versatility, you need to spend 2 talents (1 for the drawback, and then 1 for the real thing you wanted). So, I do believe it might have been better with a sort of system done with the Alchemy sphere (at least for the shape). But eh. It works.

Energy Focus: Gain a blast type as a bonus talent. Must always use that blast type for destructive blasts.
Shape Focus: Gain a blast shape as a bonus talent. Must always use that blast shape for destructive blasts.


Base Sphere: Yeah. Touch attack to hit for no spell points is pretty nice. The rest cost spell points (for most of their effect). Saving spell points means more single target blasts. But it lacks versatility and durability.

Sculpt Blast: Gives you 3 types of AoE shapes in one. Not fantastic AoEs, and they all start from your square, but for just 1 talent? Hell yeah. It can benefit from less support, but the purpose is to be a dip. (Note, due to comparative wording, the burst might be centered on self.)

Energy Tether: You can only have one of these up at a time (barring a specialized archetype), so you can't keep throwing these out, nor can you do the default attack, unless you buy off the drawback. But for a dip? Having your destruction sphere do work while you do your main thing? That's great.
It's especially great for martial-types who want another means of keeping enemies closer. (Though the duration being tied to CL kinda sucks for martial types who probably want to use their full turn to do things.)

Energy Wall: It's got flexibility in being able to be used as essentially a single target free ability, or being an AoE that has a persistent duration. But although the wall itself is persistent, it probably won't be hitting anyone more than once.

Energy Aura: Like Tether, this creates a persistent effect for just 1 casting. But unless you're trying to abuse a particularly crippling condition, it really doesn't have the threat to keep people off your squishy caster bod, nor the area control for a partial caster. But its duration is tied to CAM rather than CL.


Generally, for blast types, the custom blasts are the best. They are the most likely to fit your needs in exactly all the ways you want. But let's just stick with the premade ones.

Force: The single most universal damage type in the game (at least for damage with a type). Even hits ghosts. You do pay for it quite heavily though.

Acid / Electricity: These two are the best of the basic energies available. They are the least commonly resisted, and so are the most reliable when you don't have more, while not giving up their damage dice.

Cold: A not-all-too-common resistance, and has some light utility to put out fires, freeze water...and some other stuff, I'm sure.

Sonic: If there were any good blast types, this would be nice, as normally it's universally applicable, even with a lower than normal base damage.

Fire: Fire is well-resisted. Not the preferable basic energy type, when you only have one.

Bludgeoning / Piercing / Slashing: Physical damage. Doesn't ignore DR in Destruction sphere, despite being magically sourced.

Nonlethal: A lot of innate immunities, and is easily healed. Makes for a really poor choice when you can't flex out to something else.


Stone Blast: Are you a caster? Do you have even the slightest fears about AMF? Then here's your back up weapon.

Blinding Blast: Blind is a really good condition to inflict. Especially good with shapes that have persistent effects like Energy Tether / Aura.

Shock Blast: If it weren't for its likelihood to get banned, this would be fantastic. Even without using persistent effects, having a chance to daze is stupendously powerful.

Adhesive Blast: Entangles, but only for 1 round. Acid damage.

Fire Blast : Despite being fire damage, it does have a persistent effect, so it keeps getting value after you cast it. Particularly for low levels.

Crystal Blast: Entangles, and soaks enemy action. Piercing damage though.


Paradigm Blast: Spend a spell point to penetrate DR as though it were axiomatic damage. Or anarchic damage. No other benefits. Literally just to penetrate DR...which is ignored by picking a non-physical energy type.
Smiting Blast: Same as Paradigm Blast. You don't even get bonus damage like a Holy weapon would. Nothing. Not even the custom blasts price this effect at even remotely close to what it's costing!

Rynjin
2021-03-26, 02:52 PM
Bludgeoning / Piercing / Slashing: Physical damage. Doesn't ignore DR in Destruction sphere, despite being magically sourced

Fun fact: this isn't just a Spheres thing. Spells in base Pathfinder which explicitly deal a physical damage type interact with DR as normal. "Magically sourced" just gives them an innate ability to pierce DR/Magic.

This is because Damage Reduction is a blanket resistance to all but one kind of physical damage. Magic just doesn't typically interact with it because it's either energy damage, or "untyped" damage.

Kitsuneymg
2021-03-26, 04:53 PM
Just like to point out that energy aura can be good if you get bonus or minimum damage somehow. Like Crafted Blast plus Orc bloodline and Blood Havoc can get you 5 damage/cl, as you can’t roll less than a 3 and get two bonus damage per die. It becomes a bit more stout in this case.

SangoProduction
2021-03-26, 05:47 PM
Fun fact: this isn't just a Spheres thing. Spells in base Pathfinder which explicitly deal a physical damage type interact with DR as normal. "Magically sourced" just gives them an innate ability to pierce DR/Magic.

This is because Damage Reduction is a blanket resistance to all but one kind of physical damage. Magic just doesn't typically interact with it because it's either energy damage, or "untyped" damage.

Interesting. Although there's plenty of debate on the topic, I did make it explicit, because the SoP writers decided to also make it explicit in the sphere itself. That's much better than Pathfinder's writers going back and forth on it in official Q&As and what not.
It's definitely how I run it though.



Just like to point out that energy aura can be good if you get bonus or minimum damage somehow. Like Crafted Blast plus Orc bloodline and Blood Havoc can get you 5 damage/cl, as you can’t roll less than a 3 and get two bonus damage per die. It becomes a bit more stout in this case.

True enough. But this was specifically talking about the minimum possible investment - a single talent.

Crafted Blast is actually best used in this context, if at all. Though you are losing the blast type, but you gain +2 dmg / round per die (a 3x multiplier). Where as normally Crafted Blast improves average damage by 0.5 per die (a 8/7 multiplier).

Lirya
2021-03-26, 06:54 PM
While fire may be the most resisted energy type, if you dip destruction to add some raw damage to your toolkit then I still think it is one of the better choices as the increased die size from Searing Blast likely makes up for the difference. I looked at the numbers for a caster level 10 destructive blast against CR 10 monsters (for energy damage), though it does not consider benefits apart from raw damage right now.


Pathfinder Bestiary with Statistics (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=5)
Searing Blast 10d8 -> 45 fire damage
Immune (13.97%): 0.1397*0 = 0
Resistance (20.59%; Mean resistance 11.3): 0.2059*33.7 = 6.93883
No Resistance (65.44%): 0.6544*45 = 29.448
Average fire damage = 36.38683

Generic Cold 10d6 -> 35 cold damage
Immune (15.44%): 0.1544*0 = 0
Resistance (17.65%; Mean resistance 9.4): 0.1765*25.6 = 4.5184
No Resistance (66.91%): 0.6691*35 = 23.4185
Average cold damage = 27.9369

Generic Electricity 10d6 -> 35 electricity damage
Immune (11.03%): 0.1103*0 = 0
Resistance (11.76%; Mean resistance 12.5): 0.1176*22.5 = 2.646
No Resistance (77.21%): 0.7721*35 = 27.0235
Average electricity damage = 29.6695

Generic Acid 10d6 -> 35 acid damage
Immune (12.50%): 0.1250*0 = 0
Resistance (13.24%; Mean Resistance 10.3): 0.1324*24.7 = 3.27028
No Resistance (74.26%): 0.7426*35 = 25.991
Average acid damage = 29.26128


I don't find energy resistance especially common among NPCs with class levels unless they can specifically prepare to counter you, in which case it doesn't really matter what energy type you are specialized in. So more raw damage to penetrate the resistance is probably better there as well.

While maybe not as relevant in this thread, you should consider taking another look at the Blast Salvo shape. This shape requires some investment to become good, but if you have access to sources of additional damage that apply to your destructive blasts then it quickly becomes absurd. Say a 10th level Elementalist with Primal Blast would add 10+CAM damage to each attack. A +2 implement and a single spell point would make that 6d6+50+5*CAM (only spending a spell point on salvo, not on increasing your number of damage dice) dwarfing the single target damage of the basic blast and spending a spell point for more dice.

StSword
2021-03-26, 07:20 PM
Just like to point out that energy aura can be good if you get bonus or minimum damage somehow. Like Crafted Blast plus Orc bloodline and Blood Havoc can get you 5 damage/cl, as you can’t roll less than a 3 and get two bonus damage per die. It becomes a bit more stout in this case.

While true, I think the assessment that the main draw of it is throwing out conditions is valid.

I imagine a champion with Snap Kick or Dual Opportunity would love to use energy aura-gale blast to knock things down so they can Aoo them, for example.

Rynjin
2021-03-26, 07:24 PM
Interesting. Although there's plenty of debate on the topic, I did make it explicit, because the SoP writers decided to also make it explicit in the sphere itself. That's much better than Pathfinder's writers going back and forth on it in official Q&As and what not.
It's definitely how I run it though.

Eh; don't get much more official than a FAQ. (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fo#v5748eaic9qea)

But it's good that Spheres tries to button down stuff that never quite made it into a book.

SangoProduction
2021-03-26, 07:34 PM
While true, I think the assessment that the main draw of it is throwing out conditions is valid.

I imagine a champion with Snap Kick or Dual Opportunity would love to use energy aura-gale blast to knock things down so they can Aoo them, for example.

Definitely an interesting use. Gives a whole new meaning to a whirling dervish.


While fire may be the most resisted energy type, if you dip destruction to add some raw damage to your toolkit then I still think it is one of the better choices as the increased die size from Searing Blast likely makes up for the difference. I looked at the numbers for a caster level 10 destructive blast against CR 10 monsters (for energy damage), though it does not consider benefits apart from raw damage right now.


Pathfinder Bestiary with Statistics (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=5)
Searing Blast 10d8 -> 45 fire damage
Immune (13.97%): 0.1397*0 = 0
Resistance (20.59%; Mean resistance 11.3): 0.2059*33.7 = 6.93883
No Resistance (65.44%): 0.6544*45 = 29.448
Average fire damage = 36.38683

Generic Cold 10d6 -> 35 cold damage
Immune (15.44%): 0.1544*0 = 0
Resistance (17.65%; Mean resistance 9.4): 0.1765*25.6 = 4.5184
No Resistance (66.91%): 0.6691*35 = 23.4185
Average cold damage = 27.9369

Generic Electricity 10d6 -> 35 electricity damage
Immune (11.03%): 0.1103*0 = 0
Resistance (11.76%; Mean resistance 12.5): 0.1176*22.5 = 2.646
No Resistance (77.21%): 0.7721*35 = 27.0235
Average electricity damage = 29.6695

Generic Acid 10d6 -> 35 acid damage
Immune (12.50%): 0.1250*0 = 0
Resistance (13.24%; Mean Resistance 10.3): 0.1324*24.7 = 3.27028
No Resistance (74.26%): 0.7426*35 = 25.991
Average acid damage = 29.26128


I don't find energy resistance especially common among NPCs with class levels unless they can specifically prepare to counter you, in which case it doesn't really matter what energy type you are specialized in. So more raw damage to penetrate the resistance is probably better there as well.

While maybe not as relevant in this thread, you should consider taking another look at the Blast Salvo shape. This shape requires some investment to become good, but if you have access to sources of additional damage that apply to your destructive blasts then it quickly becomes absurd. Say a 10th level Elementalist with Primal Blast would add 10+CAM damage to each attack. A +2 implement and a single spell point would make that 6d6+50+5*CAM (only spending a spell point on salvo, not on increasing your number of damage dice) dwarfing the single target damage of the basic blast and spending a spell point for more dice.

Fair point on one end.
But on the other end, you are comparing a blast shape with damage to just energy type damage without a blast shape. 1 damage per die is generally not as compelling as the other options.

I should definitely update my real Destruction sphere guide one of these days. lol. Potent little trick.

Eh; don't get much more official than a FAQ. (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fo#v5748eaic9qea)

But it's good that Spheres tries to button down stuff that never quite made it into a book.

I agree.

Kitsuneymg
2021-03-27, 12:01 PM
Interesting. Although there's plenty of debate on the topic, I did make it explicit, because the SoP writers decided to also make it explicit in the sphere itself. That's much better than Pathfinder's writers going back and forth on it in official Q&As and what not.
It's definitely how I run it though.




True enough. But this was specifically talking about the minimum possible investment - a single talent.

Crafted Blast is actually best used in this context, if at all. Though you are losing the blast type, but you gain +2 dmg / round per die (a 3x multiplier). Where as normally Crafted Blast improves average damage by 0.5 per die (a 8/7 multiplier).

But you can. If you take Aligned Combatant you can be good and exempt your party, and if you’re melee, destructive touch let’s you use energy aura for most of your career assuming you do the standard size buff stuff. Aligned combatant good is vastly underrated for both dips and full users. Being able to drop orbs on the party without needing Friendship Aegis first is pretty useful.

SangoProduction
2021-03-27, 12:18 PM
But you can. If you take Aligned Combatant you can be good and exempt your party, and if you’re melee, destructive touch let’s you use energy aura for most of your career assuming you do the standard size buff stuff. Aligned combatant good is vastly underrated for both dips and full users. Being able to drop orbs on the party without needing Friendship Aegis first is pretty useful.

It is situationally useful. Particularly when your party is all one alignment, and the enemies are essentially all the other. If your party's neutral, you don't get that benefit, and if the enemy's are neutral, they are much less affected.

Obviously, if it fits your situation, then it's good.