How much is Flying really worth?

[Delta_tea]

My DM is being super nice and allowing me to take Human/Dragonspawn template to support my Cleric/Dweomerkeeper build. So now I have the painful decision of how many LA I want to pay off. Without flying factored in, Sea Dragon with 2 LA is super strong because it gets immunity to the most common magic damage in the game Fire (my group's Wizard is also fire focused, so this gives friendly fire protection for the next Fireball) and ability points are very handy to a Cleric (MAD), plus I can never drown. But Sea gives up flying. If I want flying with ability points I need to spend 3 LA to get up to a Blue but then I don't get fire immunity, Blue gets electrical immunity. Or I say heck with ability points and get White for 1 LA and call it a day. White is very cheap for all of the goodies it gets.

Basically, I need to figure out if natural flying is really that important or not in the game. Thanks for input!

[Venger]

Flight is trivial to obtain through magic items, so it's not necessary to have it through your race or template.

[Zanos]

Flight is pretty damned good. A lot of creatures throughout the various books cannot fly and do not have ranged attacks, or their ranged options are much more limited and not as dangerous. At will flight allows you to easily pick and choose the terms of your encounters against such creatures. In addition, it allows you to easily circumvent a good number of common hazards, like pits, floor traps, climbing, and the like.

I have been in games where flight was of limited use because almost all the combat took place underground in 5ft high hallways, but that's not typical in my experience.

That said as a cleric, your greatest strength is your spellcasting, and any amount of LA will delay that. So I'd say that white dragonspawn is your best choice, especially since you can be free of your LA at level 3 instead of level 9.


Flight is trivial to obtain through magic items, so it's not necessary to have it through your race or template.
Always on flight is pretty expensive. Feathered wings are cheap but make you take huge penalties on a lot of cha checks and/or drive you insane. No strings attached, always on flight is ~50k.

[Beni-Kujaku]

My DM is being super nice and allowing me to take Human/Dragonspawn template to support my Cleric/Dweomerkeeper build. So now I have the painful decision of how many LA I want to pay off. Without flying factored in, Sea Dragon with 2 LA is super strong because it gets immunity to the most common magic damage in the game Fire (my group's Wizard is also fire focused, so this gives friendly fire protection for the next Fireball) and ability points are very handy to a Cleric (MAD), plus I can never drown. But Sea gives up flying. If I want flying with ability points I need to spend 3 LA to get up to a Blue but then I don't get fire immunity, Blue gets electrical immunity. Or I say heck with ability points and get White for 1 LA and call it a day. White is very cheap for all of the goodies it gets.

Basically, I need to figure out if natural flying is really that important or not in the game. Thanks for input!

Flying is absolutely essential at higher levels (less so for full casters who can still hit things, but still, not being able to be attacked by pedestrians is invaluable). At lower levels, it loses importance but is still quite good. It depends on how easy it may be to get items later to replace it. If your DM is stingy with magic shop or you never have downtime for this, and you are above level 8-10, it may be interesting. But losing a caster level is generally not worth it, even more in a Dweomerkeeper build, which probably has access to it anyway. If you really need flying and you can't afford a wand and you're at a level where everybody and their mother can fly, then choose the travel domain and put Fly into your mantle of spells.

[Troacctid]

If we're talking how much LA it's worth, I'd say somewhere in the range of +0.5 LA. Maaaybe +1 if you're getting some really exceptional speed and maneuverability, like, 80 ft. perfect, or 120 ft. good, but that's obviously not the case here.

[ciopo]

I'd add that what the rest of the group has access to for flight is a factor, too.

I am the only flier in my group, so in combat encounters, despite having the flyby feat, I can't really make much use of being untouchable from ground, because enemies would simply pound on my allies.

Out of combat, it's really nice to have, bypasses a lot of geographical related "problems", but that's mostly a shortcut on scouting overland

[nedz]

Before level 6 Flight is very strong since it allows you to bypass many challenges; after this point it starts to become more common and you have other ways to bypass the low level challenges.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Like most things, it's only as important as your GM decides to make it or as important as he fails to account for.

It's a handy ability but there are better ways to get it than eating a point of LA, even sticking with race.

Check it: dragonborn (heart aspect) raptoran gets you flight that scales, a breath attack, and no level adjustment with +2 con, -2 dex.

Instead of wasting time with a LA, you can just take a level in sorcerer or some other arcane class that will give you some HD and class based goodies instead of -just- the spellcasting. Admittedly, you can't buy off a class level but you can make it worth not buying off if you choose wisely and aren't too restricted.

Beguiler, for instance, gets a nice stack of skill points, a decent list of spell options, a reason to boost int instead of cha, trapfinding, and a few extra hp. Bard's bardic music can give you a new resource for things like snowflake wardance. Battle sorcerer means no loss of bab, an extra d8+2 hp, and a weapon proficiency you don't have as well as a familiar or one of its alternates.

[nedz]

Battle Sorcerer is 3/4 BAB https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer

There are a number of methods:

Silverbrow Human (or similar) and take the Dragon Wings feat, followed by the Improved Dragon Wings feat.
But this costs you 2 feats and is meh before 6th.

Alternatively spend a spell known ...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Battle Sorcerer is 3/4 BAB

My group has used fractional BAB for years. I forgot that's not the default and was looking at 3/4 of a point for sorc compared to 3/4 of a point for most divine classes as no loss when compared to 1/2 a point for beguiler vs 3/4 for a divine or 0 for a LA vs 3/4 for a divine.

[Bullet06320]

winged creature template from savage species is la+2 so use that as a base comparison if want too
if u get it for less you got a bargain, if it costs more, is the cost worth it?

[Ravens_cry]

winged creature template from savage species is la+2 so use that as a base comparison if want too
if u get it for less you got a bargain, if it costs more, is the cost worth it?
I'd say that's rather overpriced, given there's races that get flight for 1 or even 0 LA. Even the 2 LA races that get it demonstrate such, as they get stuff above and beyond just flight.
Mind you, Savage Species was a 3.0 book.

[Delta_tea]

I'd say that's rather overpriced, given there's races that get flight for 1 or even 0 LA. Even the 2 LA races that get it demonstrate such, as they get stuff above and beyond just flight.
Mind you, Savage Species was a 3.0 book.

Agree, White Dragonspawn is an 1 LA with flying and other nice stuff.

[Bullet06320]

I'd say that's rather overpriced, given there's races that get flight for 1 or even 0 LA. Even the 2 LA races that get it demonstrate such, as they get stuff above and beyond just flight.
Mind you, Savage Species was a 3.0 book.

tru savage species was 3.0 but i dont believe the template was errated or updated so it stand as is

but i believe it was given a +1 la in one or more of the level reassignment threads on this forum by the playgrounders

but the template does also give +6 total stat boosts and a possible type change, so that may account for something or not

im just pointing it out to the op as something to use as a comparison on what flight is worth based on one printed source that gives flight and not much else

[Ravens_cry]

tru savage species was 3.0 but i dont believe the template was errated or updated so it stand as is

but i believe it was given a +1 la in one or more of the level reassignment threads on this forum by the playgrounders

but the template does also give +6 total stat boosts and a possible type change, so that may account for something or not

im just pointing it out to the op as something to use as a comparison on what flight is worth based on one printed source that gives flight and not much else
I wouldn't call +6 stat boosts, including a +4 to Dex, 'not much else'. The potential type change is both a boon and bane, as several buffs affect humanoids only, enlarge and reduce person come to mind, but so do several debuffs and hindrances. For example, dominate person is a lot lower level than dominate monster. The fact the movement speed scales with your land speed, so land speed buffs buff it as well, and the type of manoeuvrability is trivial to get to perfect for a character who is somewhat dex focused anyway, also enhances it above and beyond, say, Wings of Flying.

[ericgrau]

Depends if it's average or worse, or good or better. Average or worse usually doesn't come with hovering and is significantly worse indoors, unless you can make your turn radius. Indoors it's still useful as an unlimited jump distance provider, just not as good. You also want to consider that while many enemies don't have ranged attacks, especially beastly ones, many do. And that while melee enemies may not be hitting you they can still hit your allies. And if even one of them drops you probably won't be able to manage the rest of the adventure.

Yeah there are flight items but to get it at will and good or better maneuverability is crazy expensive. By that level the game is pretty insane anyway. Likewise the spell costs a precious action. I don't consider those to be valid reasons to call it useless.

I think +1 LA for good+ maneuverability is about right, with the caveat that you want more levels and/or HD than total LA or your HP is going to be pitiful and make you super fragile. And that's not worth it. There are however good and AFFORDABLE magic items for that in MIC, so that's something to look into if trying to struggle through lower levels. Iirc I once used a DR 3/- 3/day armor gem which is effectively +9 HP at low levels since most attacks are physical. Or something like that. Maybe it was more or less DR. IMO worse than good maneuverability isn't worth it. It helps a little but like I said enemies can still hit your allies so that plus you only benefiting half the time makes it pretty meh.

In other words it neither dominates nor useless for above reasons. Rarely are extremes ever true. It has a fixed value which is IMO about +1 LA for good+ maneuverability and +1/2 LA for average- maneuverability. Group optimization can of course make levels worth more or less which could change it too, as can dangerously low HP at low level.