Favorite Level of Play?

[Catullus64]

Tell me what level you think represents the sweet spot for your favorite gameplay, and why!

For me, this is mostly an opportunity to wax lyrical about Level 4, when you're at your peak while still being kind of a scrub.

Hit Points are low enough that every hit in combat feels meaningful, but things aren't quite as swingy as they are at 1-3. A goblin isn't going to knock you out in one bad hit, but every goblin's attack is still threatening.

As with all the lower levels, proficiency bonus is a useful boost to skills, but not so essential that a good ability score or lucky roll of the dice can't make up for it. Later on, when proficiency is more meaningful, it becomes harder and harder to do something you're not specialized for, relative to your specialized party members. Higher proficiency bonus tends to encourage you to stay in a specific lane. At these levels, nobody's that good at doing most things, which creates a weird freedom to do more of what you want. The disparities between classes and characters at doing certain tasks are noticeable enough to make you feel distinct, but not so wide that you feel locked into your specific thing.

Every class has its subclass by that point, so most characters feel like they've come into their own. Because of the way that ASI and multiclassing ratios work, multiclass characters feel like I think they should: a sacrifice of power for versatility, rather than a convoluted route to greater power. A feat is a big deal, because you've only got one, or two if you're a single-classed human.

The party's resources and abilities at this level seem just right for the kind of low-fantasy that I enjoy the most. Every spell cast feels precious. Magic has to be used carefully as a major problem-solving tool; the world-altering spells of higher level are well beyond your reach. The fact that nobody is usually making more than one attack per round means that everyone feels similarly human, and there's a kind of beautiful rhythm to the combat. (It doesn't hurt that Rogues, my favorite class, are at their damage-dealing peak here relative to other fighting classes, before falling significantly behind the Extra-Attackers at 5th.)

Extra Attacks, Cantrip scaling, 3rd+ Level Spells, resurrection options, and the more elaborate feat and multiclass synergies which come with higher levels, all represent a shift in the game for me where the player characters start to feel less like adventurers and more like superheroes. 4th level is the best and strongest that the characters get while still feeling like people living in the world, rather than demigods lording over it.

[heavyfuel]

Late tier 1 through early Tier 3 (levels 3 to 13)

Levels 1 and 2 are just mind-numbingly boring. Nobody can do anything other than super basic stuff, everyone is made out wet paper in terms of durability, and a lot of character concepts - especially those involving multiclassing - simply don't work in early levels.

By level 3 you actually start feeling like a proper character. Martials have their subclass features to diferentiate them a bit from every other martial in the game, Casters have 2nd level spells and enough slots that they aren't just slinging Cantripts literally every round, and multiclass characters can actually have a working character that fits their concept.

Beyond level 13 things get too finicky. Caster dominance becomes very apparent when they are getting world-bending spells and martials are getting stuff that makes them slightly better (but comparatively worse) at the same things they've been doing for the past 12 levels.

[Renduaz]

I usually play a spellcaster so for me the 'goldilock zone' of not a scrub but also not a God tends to be around level 5 when you get your 3rd level slots and can start actually devising plots and affecting the world in spectacular ways which still feel special. But I also like the 11+ progression.

The trick to avoid higher levels getting stale is that you need to be the Dungeon Master in truth, which is something that realistically and especially outside of dedicated spaces like this is often beyond the ken of most groups, and the better your players are, the better you must be.

Someone who is a master of the craft, to the real-life extent of getting a third degree on the topic or running a 3 michelin star restaurant, can make even a 20-level session feel as refreshing, hard-fought and tricky as a 4th-level one, but the more resources players have, the more enormous the DM's knowledge and investment has to be.

You'll need to know most classes, spells, builds and combos by heart, have an intimate familiairty with 80% of monsters, painstakingly design dungeons, puzzles and high difficulty schemes that can easily triple or quadruple preparation time, and most importantly to understand Magic like Elminster does in order to avoid a combo of 2-3 spells overwhelmong all of your obstacles. To do all of that, even though it might be 'politically incorrect' to say, it would help a lot if you were 'better' than every player at your table, mechanics-wise. Your strategies more elaborate, your builds more devastating, your experience more vast.

Because while its easy to tone down difficulty, ramping it up in a way that isn't artificial/boring like more numbers or higher CR or higher DC on doors or basic stuff like that is harder if your players 'know the drill' more than you do. I remember spending 10 hours a day on areas which take into account and present challenges against teleportation, against ethereal travel, against magical scouting, charms etc. Mirage Arcanes, Bound Dybbuk masquerades with Mind Blank and Nystul's Magic Aura, Magic Jar body-hopping baddies, Symbols laid out at key points, threats and barriers and puzzles in the air, in the ground, in the ethereal. Mage-Slayer tactics.

Making a proper challenge for your 15 level casters that still leaves them shocked, surprised or panicked as to how much effort and thinking they have to put in is a much greater ordeal than a module kobold cave for level 4, and even knowledgeable DM's simply don't have the time it takes to fully design them, which is why lower levevls tend to feel less cheap in an average group.

[Man_Over_Game]

Level 5 has my vote, too. Sure, casters get some game-altering spells like Fireball (which does like an average of 20 damage per target, assuming a 50% miss chance, and hits a 64-square block on your battlemap), but they aren't consistent. They can also afford to cast buff spells and make strategies around them (like casting Invisibility on the Rogue for a stealth operation) and still have the resources needed to stopgap the problem when the plan inevitably fails.

Martials also get some key features such as being able to hit TWO people per turn, which is presumably twice as interesting as their capabilities in the last 4 levels.

[strangebloke]

each one of the breakpoints when you hit a new tier. It's absolutely amazing to just incinerate twenty goblins at once with a fireball when they were so threatening just last session.

[RogueJK]

Levels 5-8ish

Your cool tricks and teamwork strategies have started to come online, you've progressed well into your subclass, you have some nifty mid-level spells and abilities, and most multiclass builds are more viable. But you're still grounded in "normal" reality, without too much teleporting, flying around, warping reality, plane hopping, etc.

[heavyfuel]

Damn, just realized it "level" not "levels"

I think level 7 then. 4th level spells for full casters, extra attack + level 6th feature for martials. I think it's the perfect level.

[MrStabby]

Anything about level 6 to 12.

Casters are all about resource management and below level 5 they dont really have the resources to manage.

Level 6 is often the level where a lot of caster subclasses get their second ability and feel special. Wizards, druids, clerics, bards, sorcerers and warlocks all develop thematically at level 6 (as well as monks). Starting here just gives a broader range of classes with richer differentiation.

As you get to higher levels playing some characters becomes a drag. Same old stuff just with bigger numbers. Actually qualitatively different actions become very sparse for martials (paladins at level 14 actually get to do something new, but that's about it).

Running up to end of level 12 gives people enough time to play with their exciting new toys before it's time to put them away and start a new campaign.

[sithlordnergal]

Personally, I like Tier 3. Levels 12 to 16 are really, really fun both as a player and a DM. You're no longer super weak and able to be killed by a stray gust of wind like in Tier 1, you finally get to play with the really fun abilities that you lack in Tier 2, and you're not godly like in Tier 4. As a player I get the super fun spells and abilities, like Simulacrum, Forcecage, and Heroes Feast.

As a DM I can give my players fun magic items, like a Shield Guardian, then toss The Hungry at them with a few fun bonus monsters without worrying about the fact that I'm doing an average of 61 damage per round because the Shield Guardian keeps auto-healing every round. I really couldn't do that to a lower leveled party, they'd be killed too quickly.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I agree with heavyfuel, level 7. It popped right into mind when I saw the topic. Everyone has good tricks by then, multiclass builds are starting to come into their own but haven't broken much, casters are just starting to get interesting but aren't really overshadowing martials, everyone has a respectable bag of tricks without getting overwhelming, and you're juuuuuuust big enough to punch out tier 4 threats with the right setup and luck, while tier 1 threats can still be menacing.

[Bubzors]

As most have stated I enjoy levels 5-11 the best. You can be strong but are still grounded a bit in reality. Not world bending people. Important people but not untouchable

If I had to pick a specific level it would be 7. You can feel a little smug but know for sure people better than you are out there. Everyone has some good spells and abilities and you can hold your own against many big threats

I guess I like the more grounded levels more because I dm most of the time. It's a lot easier to come up with things to challenge and excite the player when they don't have level 16-20 spells and abilities at their disposal. A lot less the whole session of the sessions worth of planning being avoided because you forgot about one level 7 spell that nullifies it.

As someone else posted, you can run a good higher level game/campaign, but usually requires more time, effort and system mastery to do without feeling cheap.

[Lunali]

I would actually like to try playing with characters getting most or all of their abilities, but with hp, spells and equipment appropriate to 5-10 level characters.

[JonBeowulf]

Whatever level the characters are at when the players stop acting like a collection of individuals and begin working as a team. Sometimes that happens during the first session... sometimes we're well into a campaign.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

As with most of the responses tier 2 is a lot of fun to DM and play. Late tier 1 is fun too.
I DM'd a session tonight at level 8 where some of the things that grind on me a bit from tier 3 started to creep in. Combat seems to get slower as the number of choices, reactions, sheer number of baddies to challenge the party, etc started to creep in. This group has a lot of minions (Death Cleric, Shepherd Druid, and Oathbreaker Paladin) which might be some of the reason I'm seeing this sooner than usual. The players are making these choices, so hopefully they continue to enjoy it until 12 or 13 for this campaign.

[Cheesegear]

Tell me what level you think represents the sweet spot for your favorite gameplay, and why!

Level <2. Great for beginners. This is typically the level at which you should be learning how skill checks and attack rolls work. You have very few abilities or 'tricks', which makes it easy to learn the basics. However, experienced players will find these levels frustrating and annoying since they can't really do anything cool. DMs tend to like this level, since the players can't do anything cool, it's really easy to set up stakes since you can die - even after this point, you probably wont...But you'll remember that you can.

Level 3-6. This is more for players who like to multi-class, since their characters can't really multiclass before Levels 4-5, and it runs a case of "Well of course I can't do anything, because my build hasn't 'come online' yet." Which I think is real stupid. If your build doesn't work at low levels, it's not a real build. But that's a different discussion for another time. This is a real good level for one-shots, because players can do things, but it's not so high a level that the players are out of control making encounters into a cakewalk or making skill checks with a +10 modifier. Additionally, if it's good for a one-shot, it's a good way to start an adventure. Players learn what each player does, and, they're still at a low enough level so they can change or adapt their build as needs must depending on what the rest of the party has or what the DM has cooked up.

As a DM, this is my favourite time.

Level 7-12. Lots of abilities start coming into play, players start getting a ****ton of good spells. The DM is throwing out a lot of the 'cooler' and literally fantastical monsters. However, this is usually the endgame for most campaigns. As beyond this point the power level of both the players and the monsters tend to get screwy, especially with a lenient DM who doesn't really check over what his players take or have at any given time.

Level 13-17. I have to say my experience beyond this point is limited. CR, an already-botched mechanic, gets even further botched beyond this point. Players will often have spells or magic items that may bypass what makes a hostile encounter, challenging, and instead, wipe the floor with the hostile, despite the MM saying that it's an appropriate CR. Conversely, at this point, if the party doesn't have a silver bullet - sometimes literally - for the monster, it can very easily end in a TPK by the DM's accident because the DM said "Well, the last CR didn't work, maybe I'll just increase the CR to make it harder..." and then by accident makes it impossible. Maybe that's the point? This, arguably, is the most fun time for the players, since this is when almost all of their characters' abilities 'come online' and their build is more or less complete.

Level 18+. In 5th Ed., I have not been to this level of play, I don't really intend to, either.

[Kane0]

Around level 8 is my favourite, but more broadly 6ish to 12ish.

Multiclassing is workable, you’re mostly to fully fleshed out, you’re notably strong but still very threatened by the big movers and shakers

[Cyclops08]

Around level 8 is my favourite, but more broadly 6ish to 12ish.

Multiclassing is workable, you’re mostly to fully fleshed out, you’re notably strong but still very threatened by the big movers and shakers
You said it for me. Thanks.
By Level 8, I am generally having my best time in the game. The more interesting spells are becoming available. and any multiclass is working smoothly by now. Many of my favorite sessions were at Level 8.

Higher up...it is just cake and candy from there on.

[stoutstien]

Level 9 is a good sweet spot. Most PCs will have picked up a second subclass or an iconic class feature. They have enough ASIs to flesh out PC concepts and the extra ones fighters and rogues get still feel really impactful.

[MoiMagnus]

Extra Attacks, Cantrip scaling, 3rd+ Level Spells, resurrection options, and the more elaborate feat and multiclass synergies which come with higher levels, all represent a shift in the game for me where the player characters start to feel less like adventurers and more like superheroes.

I agree with that, but that's probably also the exact reason why I don't really like the game before level 5 (except for teaching the game).


4th level is the best and strongest that the characters get while still feeling like people living in the world, rather than demigods lording over it.

With mythical races (or even more regular ones like elves) existing, there is most likely an aristocracy of NPCs lording over commoners as if they were demigods. As such, level 5 is when the PCs actually start to catch up with the "important NPCs" in term of how much they lord over the commoners, while still being on the lower end of the hierarchy.

[Corsair14]

Since I only very rarely get to play, my favorite levels to DM are 3-7. PLayers aren't stupidly over powered and building encounters is much easier.

[neceros]

Start at one and go to 20. The only way to play.

[LudicSavant]

Start at one and go to 20. The only way to play.

Best way in my experience.

When I hear about people who have not been able to play in such campaigns I feel sad :smallfrown:

[Catullus64]

Can't help but notice that most people answered by telling me their favorite level range, rather than level. Just pointing out that I was interested in that specifically.

[MoiMagnus]

Can't help but notice that most people answered by telling me their favorite level range, rather than level. Just pointing out that I was interested in that specifically.

Most likely because we have no favorite level. Past the first few levels, I don't feel like there is enough difference from a level to another to prefer one to another.

It's like you're asking for "your favorite hour of the day" and we're answering things like "early afternoon" because we just don't have a favorite hour of the day but we have a favorite period of the day.

[kingcheesepants]

For specific level I'd say 9. That's when 5th level spells come online and those are some of my absolute favorites. Modify memory, wall of force, animate objects. Just a lot of fun stuff. And just in general you'll have a lot of the really cool and emblematic abilities that let you fight dragons and beholders and mind flayers and such but those things can still provide a good challenge to you.

I know lots of people don't seem to care for the game balance in tier 4 but I'd say level 17 is also really fun. Being able to cast 9th level spells is really fun non casters start to pick up their really cool high level abilities and you're fighting demon lords and running around the universe and collecting legendary weapons and doing all sorts of crazy stuff. It's hard on the DM to balance things at that point but with a good group and a good DM those high level games are some of the most entertaining that can be had.

[Cheesegear]

Can't help but notice that most people answered by telling me their favorite level range, rather than level. Just pointing out that I was interested in that specifically.

Favourite specific level would depend on class and build. Nobody can answer that question really because favourite specific level has too many variables.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Best way in my experience.

When I hear about people who have not been able to play in such campaigns I feel sad :smallfrown:

We have one player in our group who pushes to keep going when either I or our other DM tap out at about level 15. Not surprisingly this player never volunteers to run a campaign. That said, congrats to those DMs who keep things going through tier 4.

[J-H]

I've DM'd for 3 to 13 (party hit 14 last night). I've been happy with all levels, and am looking forward to some crazy fights at higher levels.

[Catullus64]

We have one player in our group who pushes to keep going when either I or our other DM tap out at about level 15. Not surprisingly this player never volunteers to run a campaign. That said, congrats to those DMs who keep things going through tier 4.

Yeah, I feel like there's a problem with the high levels that has nothing to do with the balance or gameplay of those levels in themselves, but has a lot to do with context. The high levels, for me, are only really satisfying when you actually level characters up from the low levels into them; it makes the new and powerful toys of those levels actually feel great, because you struggled through when your character was a lot weaker. The power feels earned in a way that it doesn't when you just start a game at the low to middle levels.

But to actually get that experience requires that you play a long-form campaign ranging from low to high levels, and those are, I imagine, a rarity for most players. Even if campaign fatigue never sets in, real life frequently conspires to make long-running campaigns difficult.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I really like low levels, from 1 to 5. After 6-7, you start feeling really powerful and more or less invincible.

[TyGuy]

11 is the best level. While all new-tier levels feel extraordinary, 11 edges them out. Unlike 5, there's more features that are online and the subclass has more to offer. Unlike 17, you're still an adventurer instead of a demigod.

[sithlordnergal]

Can't help but notice that most people answered by telling me their favorite level range, rather than level. Just pointing out that I was interested in that specifically.

That gets to be a bit trickier...Its highly dependent on class and build. For example, Level 14 is perfect for a Soradin for me. But if I'm playing a Moon Druid, I have the most fun at level 20 simply because I can do whatever I want with Wild Shape.

[Ogre Mage]

Tier 2 (levels 5-10) is my favorite. If I was forced to pick a single level I will go in the middle of that and say 7th level.

[Hael]

7-12. I like tactical combat in DND for the sake of tactical combat.. eg usually with the greatest amount of degrees of freedom (so the most player choices) and IMO that’s the sweet spot.

Before that point, resources are more limited so it’s a lot about winning fights
where you accept trade offs (eg I won’t use a third lvl slot here and instead accept hp damage).

After lvl 12, it’s a lot less about tactics and more about creative solutions to problems. So I use this spell to get that person to drop a wrench in the infernal machine which I then get the opportunity to fireball as it’s barrier drops.

Of course there’s exceptions, but that’s my experience in 5e.

[Dark.Revenant]

Level 20. It's living proof that we beat the odds and made it to the end without falling apart as a group.

I'm DMing for a Level 20 group, and playing in a Level 8 and Level 17 group, currently. The specific level does not affect my enjoyment of the game that much. I can say that as a DM, running a game for tier 4 characters is more difficult overall just because of the number of things to keep track of, but it's also more rewarding. Thinking of what my players will use their spells/abilities for isn't a big deal; however, I am very knowledgeable of the game. Finding ways to challenge them isn't that difficult; I've made plenty of interesting encounters at tier 4, including some that my players say are their favorite in the whole tier 1-to-4 campaign.

[Ogre Mage]

It's interesting to hear about the level 1 to 20 campaigns. I have never experienced this. And probably never will. Level 1 to 15 was the closest I got. And that was unusual. Most started at 3 and died between 10-13.

[OgataiKhan]

For me it's levels 5-20. Anything that isn't tier 1 really. I want at least some cool features and/or spells to play with.

In particular, for all the flak tier 4 combat gets, I had a blast DMing a level 20 mini-campaign.

[Catullus64]

Looking over some responses, I'm inclined to expand upon a particular point about why level 4 is the best for me, and that is the rhythm of combat.

Extra Attack changes a lot. So, to a lesser extent, do cantrip scaling and increased numbers of spells slots. At Tier 1, 1 Attack = 1 Action, outside of some edge cases. There are also lots of other actions to be taken in combat: Repositioning with Dash & Disengage, Help, Searching for traps and hidden objects, Dodging, performing special actions that interact with the environment, creative in-combat use of utility spells and items. For martial classes, any one of these dynamic actions generally costs you one attack. For spellcasters, they typically cost you the minor damage of a cantrip.

When Extra Attack and Cantrip scaling enter the picture, the opportunity cost of doing one of these more unique actions in combat rises, because the benefits of the aforementioned non-offensive actions remains more static; as such, people become more and more reluctant to give up their damage in order to do something unique. As casters start having more and more spell slots of greater power to fall back on, the opportunity cost of using an action to do something creative in combat likewise rises.

What I'm saying is generally true of Tier 1, but Level 4 is the peak of Tier 1, so it's the pinnacle of character customization and abilities with this still being true.

[rlc]

Probably level 5

Though the most fun I’ve ever had as a dam was when I ran a quick one shot at level 20

[kingcheesepants]

. As casters start having more and more spell slots of greater power to fall back on, the opportunity cost of using an action to do something creative in combat likewise rises.


I can understand your point generally. It's certainly true that searching for a trapdoor or tossing some ball bearings or whatever is more viable in tier 1 because one's attacks are pretty low powered overall. However with respect to casters I think you're missing something important. Because once higher level spells and more slots and more prepared spells come into play casters can do way more with the environment than they could before. Major image, stone shape, fly, animated objects, wall of fire, etc etc. There are a ton of spells to interact with the environment or be creative with that don't come online until level 5 or later. And even lower level spells like invisibility, darkness, fog cloud, or grease are more usable when you've actually got the slots to cast them without worrying too much. At 4th level a second level slot is your apex of power, are you really going to risk it on an environmental effect or a creative plan that may or may not work? Spending a 2nd level spell slot on invisibility or darkness or what have you is a way bigger deal at 4th level than it is at 8th and thus the 8th level spellcaster is much more likely to actually risk using those kinds of creative tactics.