How to Gain Infinite/Arbitrary Spells per Day?

[Destro2119]

As the title says. I am trying to find a way to, as a high level caster, gain so many spells per day that I am in no danger of running out of spells.

Basic Guidelines:
-Base levels for this is levels 15-20, focusing on sor/wiz, though info for the other casters is welcome too
-When I say "per day", I mean enough spells to be able to win a battle of attrition with a major army (think modern US)
-Try to optimize action economy whenever possible
-Try to stick to practically optimized
-assume race is either elf or human

Please give any tips/builds you can!

[AvatarVecna]

gain so many spells per day that I am in no danger of running out of spells.

...

Try to stick to practically optimized

Infinite/Arbitrary spells per day is almost definitionally not practical optimization. Outside of very generous tables, no method of acquiring this is going to be allowed basically ever. Even stupid powerful high-epic X-stalt games get nervous about caster shenanigans of this ilk. The closest you're going to get is Reserve feats, which give you a weak at-will spell-ish ability as long as you still have a slot with the right kinda spell.

This isn't to say it's difficult to get arbitrary slots with the rest of the restrictions, just that almost nobody would call it practical optimization.

[Kalkra]

A basic trick is Mind Mage and Mage's Lucubration, although I just thought of that right now, so it might not work. Don't really have time to read through them atm. Or you could just be an StP Erudite with infinite pp cheese, but that's not what you asked for.

[JNAProductions]

Bribe your DM to make any adventuring day so short that you could have half the normal amount of spell slots and still have slots left over. :P

But yeah, echoing AV here-arbitrarily large amounts of slots is not PO, provided you're on a proper caster. Warlocks, for example, have infinite slots (kinda) with their Invocations, but aren't casters like a Wizard or Sorcerer are.

[Quertus]

The question is almost definitionally not PO. But…

A reserve feat is, indeed, the simplest and most PO answer.

Craft and sell for a few years. Ignore WBL. Buy *a lot* of Pearls of Power.

Teleport Through Time, or otherwise find a way to a 2e world. Craft without spending XP - in fact, *earn* XP for crafting. No WBL to ignore, craft lots of Pearls of Power.

Teleport Through Time, or otherwise find a way to a 2e world. Become a vampire. Get a 1st level spell at will.

Take a feat (anyone know which one?), sacrifice a 9th level spell slot, get a 1st level spell at will.

[Kalkra]

Take a feat (anyone know which one?), sacrifice a 9th level spell slot, get a 1st level spell at will.

Innate Spell from Complete Arcane.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psionics has tons of ways to refill power points. And convert-spell-to-power erudites can, well, convert spells to powers.

You can do the math from there, I'm sure.

There's also the metamind's capstone, combined with temporal reiteration or an acorn of far travel spell on a tree on a plane that's timeless with regards to magic.

[ciopo]

here's an hypothesis, I dont' know how workable this is, as I don't muck around with arcane casters usually, but:

make/own a plane where time flows faster, at a rate that, at a let's say 1:100 ratio? so when you've spent 100 minutes in the demiplane only 1 minute has passed in your prime plane

cast your spells, go rest 8 hours in your montage plane, ~5 minutes later you are well rested and have recovered all of your spells?

[Crake]

Innate Spell from Complete Arcane.

This is actually "Sacrifice a spellslot and gain a spell 8 levels lower as an at-will SLA". In theory, if you could get yourself a 17th level spellslot you could innate spell a 9th level spell, but since Heighten spell caps at 9th level, arguably 10th level with earth spell, I don't know of any way you can stack your effective spell level to 18 to get the extra slot feat for a 17th level spell. Best I can think of is adding snowcasting and sanctum spell to get up to 12th level spells for an 11th level spell slot. Still, an 11th level spell slot does power a 3rd level innane spell, which would let you cast infinite fireballs I guess?

[Geopol4r]

Why would you want to? No offense, but that sounds like a spoiled brat who doesn't know how to deal with life. I never run out if I use them wisely, but if you really need that many slots, I would roll a barbarian or get a new DM. I'm not pointing fingers, just wondering.
Edit: I'm sorry, I was too harsh. I was just kind of angry.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Shadowcraft mages can cast 9th level shadow miracles out of cantrip slots. It's not infinite, or even arbitrary, but having a decent Int on a wizard, the companion feat to Versatile Spellcaster ( Arcane Manipulation ) that allows you to break higher level slots into lower level ones, and the right magic items can net you a ton of lower level slots for shadow miracles.

[Troacctid]

I think the easiest way is either primal scholar or elder druid.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Shadowcraft mages can cast 9th level shadow miracles out of cantrip slots. It's not infinite, or even arbitrary, but having a decent Int on a wizard, the companion feat to Versatile Spellcaster ( Arcane Manipulation ) that allows you to break higher level slots into lower level ones, and the right magic items can net you a ton of lower level slots for shadow miracles.Just did the math, and Arcane Manipulation can break three 9th level spells into 13,824 cantrips, with which you can cast shadow miracles via shadowcraft mage and Heightened silent images.

[edit] Oop. Just noticed I did this wrong. 18 cantrips per 9th, rather than 9x2 (for 8ths) x2 (for 7ths) etc. Still, casting 18 shadow miracles per spell slot is nice value for money.

[AvatarVecna]

If you're pulling ScM shenanigans, you've probably got Arcane Thesis on Silent Image and some absurd CL from Earth Spell. You could use Silent Image to replicate an Echoing Fireball (for example) and turn a single upcast silent image into tons of higher-level spells?

EDIT: But yeah this thread is basically confirming in my mind that most methods of even approaching this kinda thing are gonna involve at least a little cheese.

EDIT 2: The obvious answer is wish loops for infinite wishes, or maybe Vermin Lord with a hiveminded Swarm? But those are both nonsense.

[Kalkra]

Shadowcraft mages can cast 9th level shadow miracles out of cantrip slots. It's not infinite, or even arbitrary, but having a decent Int on a wizard, the companion feat to Versatile Spellcaster ( Arcane Manipulation ) that allows you to break higher level slots into lower level ones, and the right magic items can net you a ton of lower level slots for shadow miracles.

Mimicking Miracle with an effect that specifies Wiz/Sor spells requires such a sketchy reading of the rules that it's basically a houserule at that point. Also, once you're doing that you can use Mage's Lucubration and/or Mnemonic Enhancer to actually get arbitrary spells.

[Firebug]

I see nothing stating the rule system... but it looks like everyone assumed 3.5.

In Pathfinder, my favorite infinite loop is a class with Channel Energy, Ki Pool (2 level dip in ninja), Ki Channel (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ki%20Channel), and Tea of Transference (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tea%20of%20tran sference). Sure it costs gold per use (unless you minor creation a brick of tea... with a spell slot you get back from drinking it). Shaman (https://aonprd.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Shaman) have a nature themed spell list, but the Lore spirit can give you some Sorcerer/Wizard spells to your list(= Int mod), and there are a few favored class(human, half-orc, half-elf, vanara) bonuses to add Cleric/Oracle spells to your list.

Basically, you can recharge your highest(-2) spell slot at the cost of a Ki point using the Tea. And you can recharge your Ki points using Ki Channel(= number of channel dice). You can also recharge your Channel Energy using the Tea. So as soon as you can get back 2 Ki from a single channel, you have infinite channels, spells (-2), ki points, smite evil, whatever else per day. But it takes actions so you are still somewhat limited per actual fight.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Mimicking Miracle with an effect that specifies Wiz/Sor spells requires such a sketchy reading of the rules that it's basically a houserule at that point. Also, once you're doing that you can use Mage's Lucubration and/or Mnemonic Enhancer to actually get arbitrary spells.It's not sketchy. Like, at all. It's combining rules in different supplements to get an effect that is excessive, sure, but that's how 3e works.

[Kazyan]

Be 20th-level Wizard or Sorcerer build of your choice and then cast shapechange. With that, you can backdoor your way into lots of different at-will (Su)pernatural abilities that work just like spells. You'll probably have to cast shapechange multiple times over the course of the day.

[Kalkra]

I think the easiest way is either primal scholar or elder druid.

Just looked at them, and they're much easier than anything else mentioned here, I agree. Although, if Dragon Mag is allowed, Sculpt Self can get you at-will spells, depending on your DM's interpretation.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I like how the initiator of the thread didn't answer since more than a dozen of messages, and it just kinda turned into a contest on who finds the biggest exploitable loophole in the game

[Kalkra]

It's not sketchy. Like, at all. It's combining rules in different supplements to get an effect that is excessive, sure, but that's how 3e works.

Perhaps I was hasty with my assessment. I'm assuming that the trick you're talking about is to be a Wizard or a Sorcerer and somehow get Miracle on your spell list, with the argument being that with with regards to you, that makes it a Wizard or Sorcerer spell. That doesn't seem like a good argument to me. To me that seems like saying that if you have a level of Cleric and then you take a level of Mystic (which casts off the Cleric list), that you should be able to access your domain spells from your level of Cleric with you Mystic spells.

If that was not your argument, or if you have some rebuttal I'd be interested to hear it. Always on the hunt for new cheese.

[JNAProductions]

Perhaps I was hasty with my assessment. I'm assuming that the trick you're talking about is to be a Wizard or a Sorcerer and somehow get Miracle on your spell list, with the argument being that with with regards to you, that makes it a Wizard or Sorcerer spell. That doesn't seem like a good argument to me. To me that seems like saying that if you have a level of Cleric and then you take a level of Mystic (which casts off the Cleric list), that you should be able to access your domain spells from your level of Cleric with you Mystic spells.

If that was not your argument, or if you have some rebuttal I'd be interested to hear it. Always on the hunt for new cheese.

Use the Shadow spells, Heightened to hell and back, to replicate Miracle. I don't remember the exact build, but it relies on Shadowcraft Mage to work it.

[Cruiser1]

As the title says. I am trying to find a way to, as a high level caster, gain so many spells per day that I am in no danger of running out of spells. Please give any tips/builds you can!

There are various RAW legal ways of being able to cast an infinite number of spells (and getting infinite power points if you're playing Psionic) although that doesn't mean a DM will allow it in an actual game, of course. :smallwink: For example:


Energy Transformation Field (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?230105-Energy-Transformation-Field-Infinite-spells) can be used to cast a particular spell infinite times.
Absorption (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?212739-Absorption-Never-run-out-of-spells-again!) combined with Maximize/Empower metamagic allows you to have infinite spells. Combining Absorption with Twin/Repeat metamagic is the basis of the build Priya the Prismatic Priestess (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum).

[Kalkra]

Use the Shadow spells, Heightened to hell and back, to replicate Miracle. I don't remember the exact build, but it relies on Shadowcraft Mage to work it.

The point is that Shadowcraft Mage can only replicate Wizard and Sorcerer spells, which Miracle, barring cheese, is not.

[JNAProductions]

The point is that Shadowcraft Mage can only replicate Wizard and Sorcerer spells, which Miracle, barring cheese, is not.

Miracle is Evocation, right? So use Shadow Evocation (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm) to cast it.

[Kalkra]

Miracle is Evocation, right? So use Shadow Evocation (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm) to cast it.


You tap energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell of 4th level or lower. (For a spell with more than one level, use the best one applicable to you.)

Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless an affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur. If recognized as a shadow evocation, a damaging spell deals only one-fifth (20%) damage. Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save (or spell resistance) that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow evocation’s level (5th) rather than the spell’s normal level.

Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect.

Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell.

Same problem, with the additional problem of the level restriction.

[Anthrowhale]

The clockwork wizard (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?496834-The-Clockwork-Wizard-Everything-in-no-time) is an example absurdly beyond practical optimization.

[Vaern]

If custom magic item creation is allowed, which opens the floodgates for all kinds of cheese...
An unlimited use item costs as much as a 5/day item, which is simply five times the cost of the equivalent 1/day item. Pearl of Power is priced as a 1/day item. Pay five times the cost of a Pearl of Power I and get yourself a Pearl of Unlimited Power I. Rinse and repeat for every spell level.
The same applies for Momento Magica, if you want to play a spontaneous caster.

And let's be honest. Once you've stockpiled so many of the things it's got to become kind of annoying to keep track of how many you've burnt through for the day. You might as well just call it infinite at some point, unless you really enjoy the bookkeeping.

[Jack_Simth]

As the title says. I am trying to find a way to, as a high level caster, gain so many spells per day that I am in no danger of running out of spells.

Basic Guidelines:
-Base levels for this is levels 15-20, focusing on sor/wiz, though info for the other casters is welcome too
-When I say "per day", I mean enough spells to be able to win a battle of attrition with a major army (think modern US)
-Try to optimize action economy whenever possible
-Try to stick to practically optimized
-assume race is either elf or human

Please give any tips/builds you can!
Wizard-5/Red Wizard-5 (DMG)/Arcane PrC combination of choice-5 (or more).
***DO NOT BAN EVOCATION***

Early on, get all the requirements for Innate Spell out of the way (Quicken, Silent, Still). Also grab Arcane Disciple(Luck domain), and all other requirements.
At 10th, the Wizard uses Circle Magic (Red Wizard) to heighten a spell to 20th.
At 12th, the Wizard uses that ability to cast a 20th level spell to qualify for Extra Slot, and get an actual spell slot at 19th.
At 15th, the Wizard takes Innate Spell (Miracle).

You can now cast Miracle as an at-will. Any Cleric spell of 8th level or lower (that doesn't require XP or material components). Any other spell of 7th level or lower (likewise). At will as a standard action.

There are of course a lot of variations on this. Instead of miracle, you could use, say, Greater Shadow Evocation or Shades. At 18th, you can get a second (perhaps Time Stop?).

[Jowgen]

Incantifier, the Dragon Mag PrC, is basically magic-Lich that has an in-built spell slot recovery mechanic via its Spell resitance.

There's a Theurge Build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?603106-Incantifier-x-Warlock-X-Eldritch-Theurge-for-Infinite-Magic) that allows for self-sufficient 9th level spell slot recovery.

[Particle_Man]

Isn't this the basic schtick of the Warlock?

[Thurbane]

I skimmed so I may have missed this, but Aeshkrau Illumian + 1 level dip in Cancer Mage + Festering Anger magical disease + casting class of your choice.

NI Str = NI bonus spells.

It's very cheesy, so make sure your DM/table is OK with it.

[Crake]

I skimmed so I may have missed this, but Aeshkrau Illumian + 1 level dip in Cancer Mage + Festering Anger magical disease + casting class of your choice.

NI Str = NI bonus spells.

It's very cheesy, so make sure your DM/table is OK with it.

Nitpick, but festering anger isn't NI, it is in fact limited by the time you've spent with it, so it only becomes NI as time approaches infinity.

[Fizban]

When I say "per day", I mean enough spells to be able to win a battle of attrition with a major army (think modern US)
Be an Eldritch Theurge. Now you have 12+ levels of Warlock, 13 if you otherwise max your non-Warlock side, and with Wiz you still get the coveted 9th level spells at 20th. That means at least one Greater Invocation, which means at-will Black Tentacles or Wall of Fire (or Insect Plague, which used to be an army crusher, but 3.5 completely changed that).

Alternatively, learn a few of the spells which crush armies without needing more than a single cast. Control Winds, Control Weather, Fimbulwinter, Flashflood, Sunburst, etc. Unless your definition of army is dozens or hundreds of people only a couple levels below yourself that the DM pulled out of nowhere. If an army is a bunch of 1st level Warriors and Commoners, it takes very little to defeat an army. If you mean an army with modern weapons and technology, that's a completely different ball game, and depends entirely on the statistics given to that equipment.

You could also dredge up a broken Persist combo, which some people consider practical rather than cheese. Just find a spell which damages everything in a radius around you, make it big, persist it, walk past the enemy army.

Or Planar Bind an army killer to do it for you, which may or may not cost anything depending how your table runs the spell. Plenty of outsiders have Fireball or similar at-will and the DR and regeneration to laugh off an army.

[Aharon]

This is actually "Sacrifice a spellslot and gain a spell 8 levels lower as an at-will SLA". In theory, if you could get yourself a 17th level spellslot you could innate spell a 9th level spell, but since Heighten spell caps at 9th level, arguably 10th level with earth spell, I don't know of any way you can stack your effective spell level to 18 to get the extra slot feat for a 17th level spell. Best I can think of is adding snowcasting and sanctum spell to get up to 12th level spells for an 11th level spell slot. Still, an 11th level spell slot does power a 3rd level innane spell, which would let you cast infinite fireballs I guess?

It works with Epic Feats - there's Improved Spell Capacity, which get's you a slot of one level higher than your highest slot. Take that eight times, and you have a level 17 slot to power Innate spell.
This might fly at some tables as practical optimization.
With Dragonwrought Kobold and DCFS, it's possible before epic levels, but would probably not be accepted at most tables.

[Serafina]

This is Pathfinder, but since it is neat and I found the combo myself I may as well contribute it:
Your main ingredient is the spell Channel the Gift (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/channel-the-gift) and the Metamagic Echoing Spell (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/echoing-spell-metamagic).
You will also be working with Metamagic Reduction via traits (1 (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/metamagic-master/) 2 (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage/)) and free Metamagic via either Spell Perfection (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection/) (available at 15th level) or Sacred Geometry (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry/).
Your result is arbitrary spell slots of 3rd-level or lower per day. If you are using Sacred Geometry, those can have Metamagic applied to them. Since the build is class-agnostic (other than needing access to Channel the Gift), using a class that can benefit from having access to low-level spell slots to burn is also an option.

Here is how the loop works:
Thanks to Echoing Spell, whenever you cast Channel the Gift, you get two copies of the spell - one that takes effect right away, and one Echo that can be cast later during the day (using another action, but that is fine). You use the non-Echo effect to spontaneously cast a 3rd-level spell: another Channel the Gift, which gives you another Echo, which is stored for the rest of the day. You do need to have a second Channel the Gift prepared for this, but other than that you are good to go. An hour of preparation gives you about 600 Echoes.
Oh, and obviously you Quicken Channel the Gift with this.

This build can actually be online as early as 7th level, thanks to Sacred Geometry shenanigans (you get a guaranteed success for 8th-level effective spell slots with with Calculating Mind feat at that level).

The main drawback lies in having to use your Swift Action to use the Echoes of Channel the Gift so as to not expend your low-level spell slots, in only getting infinite low-level spell slots, and in taking up two 3rd-level spells prepared.
On the other hand, if you are only using this with Spell Perfection at 15th level, this is very low in actual game-breaking potential (it is just 3rd-level spells, at that level) while still being very cool in that it is infinite spells, so it is much more likely to be allowed!

[Quertus]

Innate Spell from Complete Arcane.

Yeah, thanks!


I think the easiest way is either primal scholar or elder druid.

Source?


I skimmed so I may have missed this, but Aeshkrau Illumian + 1 level dip in Cancer Mage + Festering Anger magical disease + casting class of your choice.

NI Str = NI bonus spells.

It's very cheesy, so make sure your DM/table is OK with it.


Nitpick, but festering anger isn't NI, it is in fact limited by the time you've spent with it, so it only becomes NI as time approaches infinity.

14,400 rounds per day. Assuming you accept casting a roughly equal mix of spells level 5-9, you need roughly 2,880 bonus spells of each level, or a roughly 5,760 strength score, which takes roughly 5,760 days, or 15 years, 285 days. Doable. 5 times that for not having to choose (ie, "all 9ths"). Hard for a human.


It works with Epic Feats - there's Improved Spell Capacity, which get's you a slot of one level higher than your highest slot. Take that eight times, and you have a level 17 slot to power Innate spell.
This might fly at some tables as practical optimization.

Really not sure why this *wouldn't* be considered PO, tbh. But it's outside the scope of the OP.

[Destro2119]

here's an hypothesis, I dont' know how workable this is, as I don't muck around with arcane casters usually, but:

make/own a plane where time flows faster, at a rate that, at a let's say 1:100 ratio? so when you've spent 100 minutes in the demiplane only 1 minute has passed in your prime plane

cast your spells, go rest 8 hours in your montage plane, ~5 minutes later you are well rested and have recovered all of your spells?

Does this actually work by RAW? How can I make the plane?

Also, ignore the PO restriction if necessary.

[Destro2119]

Also, ways to get infinite/arbitrary slots at epic levels are open too now.

[ciopo]

Does this actually work by RAW? How can I make the plane?

Also, ignore the PO restriction if necessary.
I don't actually know for sure. The spell to use would be Genesis (srd) , and the srd page on planes specify the "different flow of time" is one of the properties a plane may have. The contention would be on whether you can decide the flow of time of your demiplane when you create it.

I only know of the idea because of planar sheperd shenanigans with noncustom planes

Sorry for the lack of links, I'm on the phone

[Zanos]

I think the most straightforward way is the Belt of the Dread Emperor in BOVD. It deals damage to whoever you have chained to it equal to the spell level squared, but even at 81 damage per 9th level slot, you can easily just use stuff that you don't care about dying, or creatures with fast healing or regen, or just actually heal the damage with spells.

Not an artifact, but is 120k.

[Quertus]

Belt of the Dread Emperor in BOVD.

81 damage per 9th level slot,

just use stuff that you don't care about dying

creatures with fast healing or regen

Only works for humanoids, right?

Spell falls if creature dies, right?

[Zanos]

Oh, true. You could use polymorph to turn something with a lot of HD into a humanoid, but I don't think there are any humanoids with natural fast healing. You'll have to find another way to heal them, but I think there's a couple of creatures you can call up with the various binding spells that have at will cure wounds. Nothing prevents you from using the belt on yourself either if you are a humanoid, and then healing with one of the relatively inefficient arcane healing spells, but should still be enough to counter the damage.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Oh, true. You could use polymorph to turn something with a lot of HD into a humanoid, but I don't think there are any humanoids with natural fast healing. You'll have to find another way to heal them, but I think there's a couple of creatures you can call up with the various binding spells that have at will cure wounds. Nothing prevents you from using the belt on yourself either if you are a humanoid, and then healing with one of the relatively inefficient arcane healing spells, but should still be enough to counter the damage.Well, there's always Draconic Aura: Vigor. Fast healing 1 on anyone under half hp, which would work on EVERYTHING attached to the item, multiplying its usefulness.

[AvatarVecna]

Also, ways to get infinite/arbitrary slots at epic levels are open too now.

Vermin Lord can pull it off at lvl 17 with a hiveminded swarm.

Sorcerer or Wizard can pull it off at lvl 21 using DCS to scoop up arbitrary numbers of epic feats (primarily Improved Spell Capacity and Great Intelligence). You could also do DCS stuff as early as 15th level to acquire arbitrary numbers of non-epic feats but that'll generally be limited to taking Extra Slot, which (at that level) is a single extra 7th lvl slot, rather than a full spell level with bonus spells from high int, or a feat that improves your Int which would give you an extra slot at multiple levels.

Illumian Cleric 21 can take Permanent Emanation: Consumptive Field, which will force a SoD on anything nearby that's already in negative HP. The caster level bonus is capped at a max of half the CL the spell was cast at, but the self-stacking Str bonus isn't capped at all, and for the right Illumian, that means bonus spell slots.

The hivemind and cleric stuff is fairly simple in-universe. The sor/wiz stuff depends on your DM agreeing that DCSing a feat you gained from Heroics makes the feat permanent (which is maybe controversial RAW, and definitely controversial RAI). But all of it is very cheesy and unlikely to be allowed at most tables. IDK how practical that is. IDK how practical any source of "infinite spells" is going to be.

EDIT: I guess any caster could do the DCS version by buying the spellcasting services, but they'd be paying money (4960 per feat) instead of self-regenerating spell slots the way a sor/wiz would. And Sor/Wiz could still spend money getting more so.

[Telonius]

Probably the most straightforward, RAW way of doing this would be a Necropolitan Tainted Scholar. It can give you an arbitrarily high number of spells, with arbitrarily high saves. If you get into it as Undead, you avoid the negatives of Taint and Depravity. Keep acquiring more Taint and Depravity (relatively easy to do), and you increase the number of bonus spells as well as the save DCs.

You can get into the PrC at 6th level, and the Tainted Spellcasting feature turns on at Tainted Scholar 1. Rite of Crucimigration will delay you slightly due to the XP loss, but it's still ridiculously powerful for the investment.

[Destro2119]

Vermin Lord can pull it off at lvl 17 with a hiveminded swarm.

Sorcerer or Wizard can pull it off at lvl 21 using DCS to scoop up arbitrary numbers of epic feats (primarily Improved Spell Capacity and Great Intelligence). You could also do DCS stuff as early as 15th level to acquire arbitrary numbers of non-epic feats but that'll generally be limited to taking Extra Slot, which (at that level) is a single extra 7th lvl slot, rather than a full spell level with bonus spells from high int, or a feat that improves your Int which would give you an extra slot at multiple levels.

Illumian Cleric 21 can take Permanent Emanation: Consumptive Field, which will force a SoD on anything nearby that's already in negative HP. The caster level bonus is capped at a max of half the CL the spell was cast at, but the self-stacking Str bonus isn't capped at all, and for the right Illumian, that means bonus spell slots.

The hivemind and cleric stuff is fairly simple in-universe. The sor/wiz stuff depends on your DM agreeing that DCSing a feat you gained from Heroics makes the feat permanent (which is maybe controversial RAW, and definitely controversial RAI). But all of it is very cheesy and unlikely to be allowed at most tables. IDK how practical that is. IDK how practical any source of "infinite spells" is going to be.

EDIT: I guess any caster could do the DCS version by buying the spellcasting services, but they'd be paying money (4960 per feat) instead of self-regenerating spell slots the way a sor/wiz would. And Sor/Wiz could still spend money getting more so.

What is DCS?

[JNAProductions]

Dark Chaos Shuffle.

[Destro2119]

Vermin Lord can pull it off at lvl 17 with a hiveminded swarm.

Sorcerer or Wizard can pull it off at lvl 21 using DCS to scoop up arbitrary numbers of epic feats (primarily Improved Spell Capacity and Great Intelligence). You could also do DCS stuff as early as 15th level to acquire arbitrary numbers of non-epic feats but that'll generally be limited to taking Extra Slot, which (at that level) is a single extra 7th lvl slot, rather than a full spell level with bonus spells from high int, or a feat that improves your Int which would give you an extra slot at multiple levels.

Illumian Cleric 21 can take Permanent Emanation: Consumptive Field, which will force a SoD on anything nearby that's already in negative HP. The caster level bonus is capped at a max of half the CL the spell was cast at, but the self-stacking Str bonus isn't capped at all, and for the right Illumian, that means bonus spell slots.

The hivemind and cleric stuff is fairly simple in-universe. The sor/wiz stuff depends on your DM agreeing that DCSing a feat you gained from Heroics makes the feat permanent (which is maybe controversial RAW, and definitely controversial RAI). But all of it is very cheesy and unlikely to be allowed at most tables. IDK how practical that is. IDK how practical any source of "infinite spells" is going to be.

EDIT: I guess any caster could do the DCS version by buying the spellcasting services, but they'd be paying money (4960 per feat) instead of self-regenerating spell slots the way a sor/wiz would. And Sor/Wiz could still spend money getting more so.

Clarification on the hiveminded swarm?

[Jowgen]

Also, ways to get infinite/arbitrary slots at epic levels are open too now.

This one's tricky.

For starters, can anyone think of a way to get Improved Spell-capacity as a feat before 20 HD?

[AvatarVecna]

Clarification on the hiveminded swarm?

Hivemind rules in BoVD gives many benefits including spellcasting ability, which scales with the number of participants in the hivemind. Something like 1000 members is enough to start getting casting.

Vermin Lords can explicitly use the hivemind rules, and can be a part of any hivemind they create (and thus gain the benefits) even though they're not the appropriate creature type. They don't get some hivemind benefits, but they do get the casting.

A creature of the swarm type is a single statblock made of a massive number of creatures.

A swarm of Fine-sized creatures will have 10000 members, which will give all participants. If such a swarm was hiveminded, all statblocks (so, the swarm and the Vermin Lord) will gain 197 skill points per HD, 197 feats per HD, and casting as a Sorcerer 197 (altho no other benefits of such an extreme class level).

A non-epic Vermin Lord can gain the Versatile Spellcaster feat in order to be capable of casting 10th lvl spells via their hivemind casting. This allows them to take Extra Spell to learn any sorcerer soell up to 9th lvl as a spell known as many times as needed, and to take Extra Slot for an extra slot up to 9th lvl as many times as their new feat totals will allow. The swarm (but not the Vermin Lord) will have Int/Cha aroind 200ish as well.

There is nothing stopping you from hiveminding multiple swarms at once - they all have to be the same kind, ut that's about it. The more participants you get, the higher CL, Int, Cha, feats/HD, and skills/HD the hivemind will get.

There is no stated situation under which a Hivemind is lost, so AFAICT this is just a permanent buff. A vermin lord can only be a member of one hivemind at a time but that's it.

This is, obviously, not practical optimization. Nor is it original on my part. And obviously, if you're 21st lvl instead of 17th, not onoy do you have more HD (and thus more feats), but you also have access to epic feats.

[AvatarVecna]

This one's tricky.

For starters, can anyone think of a way to get Improved Spell-capacity as a feat before 20 HD?

Not 100% sure cuz shapeshifting is always a nightmare but:

Step 1) have a friend pull off CL shenanigans

Step 2) Have them Shapechange into Epic Dragon, which gets those feats for free

Step 3) Something that transfers feats between people? That doesn't care about prereqs?

I suppose you could do the CL stuff yourself and Gate the epic dragon in instead?

[Jowgen]

Not 100% sure cuz shapeshifting is always a nightmare but:

Step 1) have a friend pull off CL shenanigans

Step 2) Have them Shapechange into Epic Dragon, which gets those feats for free

Step 3) Something that transfers feats between people? That doesn't care about prereqs?

I suppose you could do the CL stuff yourself and Gate the epic dragon in instead?

Based off of this, I have devised a workable solution.

Per the Epic feats section on Draconomicon p. 66 "Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels", and Improved Spell Capacity is in fact amongst herein referred to "appropriate" epic feats.

Either a Mist or Mercury dragon (DoF) -or the thematically more fitting Tome Dragon from Dragon 343, if available- reaches Old age at a measily 24 HD. That is well within the limits of a Shapechange, which when combined by someone doing a DCS, should let you swap out any of your feats for Improved Spell Capacity.

As being the appropriate level is not a prerequesite for Epic feats in the traditional sense, but simply a status that makes the feat eligibible for selection in the first instance, shapeshifting back shouldn't disqualify you from gaining the benefit of said feat once chosen and aquired through this method.

This at the very least gives us higher than 9th level spell slots to work with.

EDIT: The Epic Spellcasting feat itself can become an option via the same method, but the other prerequesites make it tricky.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Probably the most straightforward, RAW way of doing this would be a Necropolitan Tainted Scholar. It can give you an arbitrarily high number of spells, with arbitrarily high saves. If you get into it as Undead, you avoid the negatives of Taint and Depravity. Keep acquiring more Taint and Depravity (relatively easy to do), and you increase the number of bonus spells as well as the save DCs.

You can get into the PrC at 6th level, and the Tainted Spellcasting feature turns on at Tainted Scholar 1. Rite of Crucimigration will delay you slightly due to the XP loss, but it's still ridiculously powerful for the investment.

Of note: while this is the forum's favored interpretation of the taint rules in HoH, it's not the only valid one. A GM could very easily rule without having to add or change any of the existing rules text that being undead or an evil outsider leaves you with a -fixed- taint score based on your charisma.

[Crake]

14,400 rounds per day. Assuming you accept casting a roughly equal mix of spells level 5-9, you need roughly 2,880 bonus spells of each level, or a roughly 5,760 strength score, which takes roughly 5,760 days, or 15 years, 285 days. Doable. 5 times that for not having to choose (ie, "all 9ths"). Hard for a human.

Doable within the scope of an actual campaign? Not likely. Also gets entirely reset should you ever lose the disease, which is rather trivial to get rid if, meaning you gotta go all the way back to the start of those 15-16 years.

You don't usually get near 16 years of prep time for something like this.

[Cruiser1]

This is Pathfinder, but since it is neat and I found the combo myself I may as well contribute it:
Your main ingredient is... the Metamagic Echoing Spell (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/echoing-spell-metamagic).
Echoing Spell (E:SoX) also exists in 3.5, although it's slightly different in that the spell can return to you multiple times, but at 4 lower caster level (until your caster level is too low to cast a spell of that level). That means Echoing Spell can potentially be used for an infinite supply of spells in 3.5 too, if you temporarily increase your caster level by 4 when casting the spell. That would make the spell return in its original condition with the original caster level, so it never expires. In summary:


Apply Echoing Spell metamagic to a spell you cast, at the time you cast it. Easiest way to do it forever is with Spelldancer, although Incantatrix and Divine Metamagic can do it too (at least for a while).
Apply +4 to your casting level when you cast the spell. For example, the feat Elder Giant Magic (also from E:SoX) allows you to apply +3. Temporarily take out your Orange Ioun Stone or whatever for the other +1.


Note this requires the interpretation that Echoing Spell "applies -4 caster level (to the level the spell was cast at) each time it returns", and not "minus 4 multiplied by (number of times it has returned so far) to your original caster level at the time the spell was originally prepared". The feat text just says "treat your caster level as four lower" and "this process repeats itself every time the spell is cast", so doesn't make it clear one way or the other.

[Quertus]

Of note: while this is the forum's favored interpretation of the taint rules in HoH, it's not the only valid one. A GM could very easily rule without having to add or change any of the existing rules text that being undead or an evil outsider leaves you with a -fixed- taint score based on your charisma.

That's… the way I read it, back when it was Maho Bujin and Maho Tsukai as prestige classes, so I've just *assumed* fixed Taint scores ever since.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

One more for psionics -- you can reach literal infinite powers per day sharing affinity field (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/affinityField.htm) with your psicrystal, then manifesting a power on either you or it. You'll bounce the effect between you an infinite number of times, instantaneously, and it will continue to affect the both of you an infinite number of times per round until affinity field runs out, or something deals damage to you (in which case, you will immediately die from infinite damage; or maybe not, depending on how the psicrystal's 8 hardness figures into it).

It's only ONE power manifested infinitely, but it should still qualify. And that power can be a spell if a CStP erudite is involved somewhere.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's… the way I read it, back when it was Maho Bujin and Maho Tsukai as prestige classes, so I've just *assumed* fixed Taint scores ever since.

I've been aware of both interpretations for a long time but I tend to rule conservatively on RAW ambiguities and have always gone with fixed.

[Darg]

Also, ways to get infinite/arbitrary slots at epic levels are open too now.


Incantifier, the Dragon Mag PrC, is basically magic-Lich that has an in-built spell slot recovery mechanic via its Spell resitance.

There's a Theurge Build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?603106-Incantifier-x-Warlock-X-Eldritch-Theurge-for-Infinite-Magic) that allows for self-sufficient 9th level spell slot recovery.

We can use the incantifier eldritch theurge for epic spell levels too:


The equivalent spell level of the spell-like abilities granted by epic warlock feats is equal to 1/2 the warlock's caster level. The DC is equal to 10 + equivalent spell level + the warlock's Charisma modifier. This applies only to the spell-like abilities granted by these feats. It does not retroactively increase the DC of previous acquired invocations nor does it affect the DCs of invocations acquired through the Epic Extra Invocation feat.

Epic warlock feats have scaling spell levels based on caster level(and technically any invocation chosen with epic extra invocation as only the DC was said not the increase). All you need is one epic warlock feat and you are golden for infinite spell casts. Just keep leveling up in eldritch theurge.

[Jowgen]

We can use the incantifier eldritch theurge for epic spell levels too:



Epic warlock feats have scaling spell levels based on caster level(and technically any invocation chosen with epic extra invocation as only the DC was said not the increase). All you need is one epic warlock feat and you are golden for infinite spell casts. Just keep leveling up in eldritch theurge.

Excellent catch.

By shapechanging into an Old Tome dragon either pre-level-up or a DCS, we can acquire 10th level slots pre-epic and not loose them after turning back.

The same procedure can be applied to meet the requirements of our Epic Warlock feat of choice (Morpheme Savant has the easiest prerequesites), which so long as we have a CL of at least 20 will allow us to regain 10th level slots by simply casting one of the SLAs it gives at ourselves and choosing to fail overcoming our SR.

This this allows us to elect to regain epic spells due to the caveat that while Epic spells "have not fixed level" they are "all treated as if they were 10th-level spells" for the prupose of Concentraltion, SR and "other possible situations where spell level is important", which our Incantifier spell-recharge ability certainly falls under.

Only remaining issue is actually obtaining Epic spells known.

[Darg]

Excellent catch.

By shapechanging into an Old Tome dragon either pre-level-up or a DCS, we can acquire 10th level slots pre-epic and not loose them after turning back.

The same procedure can be applied to meet the requirements of our Epic Warlock feat of choice (Morpheme Savant has the easiest prerequesites), which so long as we have a CL of at least 20 will allow us to regain 10th level slots by simply casting one of the SLAs it gives at ourselves and choosing to fail overcoming our SR.

This this allows us to elect to regain epic spells due to the caveat that while Epic spells "have not fixed level" they are "all treated as if they were 10th-level spells" for the prupose of Concentraltion, SR and "other possible situations where spell level is important", which our Incantifier spell-recharge ability certainly falls under.

Only remaining issue is actually obtaining Epic spells known.

Epic spells are learned once you develop them (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm):


Epic Spellcasting

Once an epic spell is developed, the caster knows the spell.

This is actually the only way for druids and clerics to know spells except through gaining arcane casting.

[Jowgen]

Epic spells are learned once you develop them (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm):

That would require the Epic Spellcasting Feat though, which even with the Tome Dragon Shapechange would be tricky at best to qualify for pre-epic.

From reading the description, there does however seem to be nothing to prevent us from using a Knowstone to gain Epic spells known. As its prerequesite feat is craft wondrous item, a called Midgard Dwarf would be able to circumvent the requirement of having the spell known as to craft said Knowstone.

This seems much more straightforward/versatile of a solution to me.

The only remaining technical hurdle I can see is the question of whether our IET would technically be allowed to use it's 10th level spell slots to cast said Known Epic spell, or whether we'll have to try and find a way to gain an Epic spellslot to re-fill with 10th levels otherwise.

[Darg]

Epic spells use a different system from normal spells. A knowstone cannot provide knowledge of an epic spell because it does not state that the spell can be epic. The only RAW way to learn an epic spell is through the Epic Spellcasting feat. A spell is levels 0-9. An epic spell is technically without level.

[Malphegor]

The clockwork wizard (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?496834-The-Clockwork-Wizard-Everything-in-no-time) is an example absurdly beyond practical optimization.


Been reading through that, there’s a fair bit of that that seems a bit extraneous on the feats at first glance, I might need to go through the prereqs of the classes involved but it’s possible the clockwork wizard could be tightened up to my eyes. Might play one next time I’m playing 3.5, though might need to substitute eidetic spellcaster for the tokens version of a spellbook (1 sling stone = 1 page of a spellbook. That means a spellbook that costs 1cp per page which is... maybe cheaper than an equivalent stone spellbook) in complete arcane as I like familiars and would enjoy freeing up a feat to give the clockwork wizard a clockwork mender familiar via improved familiar.

Tbh I reckon one of those in the same team as a Dal Quor/Dream/Nightmare Planar Shepherd would make for some fun times. Personal power wizard using hypertime to do infinite shonen power ups, while the druid has a semi passive much deeper version of hypertime letting them basically just take out entire dungeons in a few rounds as far as the rest of the universe is concerned.

[Jowgen]

Epic spells use a different system from normal spells. A knowstone cannot provide knowledge of an epic spell because it does not state that the spell can be epic. The only RAW way to learn an epic spell is through the Epic Spellcasting feat. A spell is levels 0-9. An epic spell is technically without level.


Despite their power, epic spells still follow the basic rules for casting spells, except as specifically noted otherwise. [...] Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells. [...]
Epic spells are considered 10th level for the purpose of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other determinations.

As there is no rule explicitly barring Epic spells from being used in the crafting of a Knowstone (or magic items in general) we default to the basic rules for casting spells. The lack of fixed level would preclude being able to determine how much a Knowstone of an epic spell should cost, except that they are explicitly treated as 10th level for "situations where spell level is important" and "other determinations".

Also, I have just noticed this:


A character doesn’t gain epic spell slots by virtue of his or her level and class, however. A character gets one epic spell slot for every 10 ranks he or she has in the relevant Knowledge skill.

At no point does it seem to actually require the Epic Spellcasting feat as a prerequesite for getting these spell-slots, or otherwise limit it to Epic characters. So it seems to me that by RAW, any character with sufficient knowledge ranks has these spell slots regardless of their casting ability.

It's just that they do not have any Epic Spells known to use those slots with, normally. I maintain that Knowstone gets around that one.

[Darg]

It's the feat that gives you access to epic spellcasting. You don't get epic slots until you gain the feat. What you quoted was defining the terms.


Epic Spellcasting [Epic]
Prerequisite
Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells.
Benefit

You may develop and cast epic spells. If you are an arcane spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (arcana) divided by 10. If you are a divine spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) divided by 10.
Special

If you meet more than one set of prerequisites, the limit on the number of spells you may cast per day is cumulative.

Once you gain access to epic spellcasting through the feat, you get the epic spell slots. Otherwise, any character regardless of whether they have casting ability would be able to get epic spell slots as long as they have 10+ ranks in a knowledge skill.

[Gruftzwerg]

Bribe your DM to make any adventuring day so short that you could have half the normal amount of spell slots and still have slots left over. :P

But yeah, echoing AV here-arbitrarily large amounts of slots is not PO, provided you're on a proper caster. Warlocks, for example, have infinite slots (kinda) with their Invocations, but aren't casters like a Wizard or Sorcerer are.
Imho a warlock/craftlock is the way to go here. Warlock has access to infinite invocation spam and can still UMD any scroll he did craft for special purposes. Or one of the Theurge builds that have been mentioned.


This is actually "Sacrifice a spellslot and gain a spell 8 levels lower as an at-will SLA". In theory, if you could get yourself a 17th level spellslot you could innate spell a 9th level spell, but since Heighten spell caps at 9th level, arguably 10th level with earth spell, I don't know of any way you can stack your effective spell level to 18 to get the extra slot feat for a 17th level spell. Best I can think of is adding snowcasting and sanctum spell to get up to 12th level spells for an 11th level spell slot. Still, an 11th level spell slot does power a 3rd level innane spell, which would let you cast infinite fireballs I guess?

There are options, but none of them could be considered PO anymore..^^

A) (from my Orochimaru build)
Craftlock + Ice Assassins + Symbiont Template + being Epic lvl to qualify for the Epic feats and their skill rank requirements

Chameleon has access to the Sinker classes spell-list which caps at 2nd lvl spells. As such the craftlock (warlock 12 / chameleon 2 / ...) can take Improved Spellcapacity multiple times and finally Innate Spell.

(edit) abuse the Floating feat and your symbiont army to get the desired feats. (full explanation see build)


B) (from my BoBaFeat build)
Body outside Body + Void Disciple 4 (Moment of Clarity) + being/counting as dragon to qualify for epic feats

The build needs access to 9th lvl spells. Either as wu-jen or as Wizard who did get Body outside Body on his spell list (recaster, wyrm wizard).

- Oder a clone to give you Spell Stowaway: Body outside Body (now you and all clones produce free clones for each BOB cast in reach)

- Use BOB as much as you can
- Order the first 6 to give you Improved Spell Capacity with their Moment of Clarity ability
- Order one to give you Innate Spell: Body outside Body

Note that any missing ranks (!) in skills as requirements can by gained by Moment of Clarity too.

This allows us to produce infinite clones to get infinite feats, ability scores (epic +1 feats), skill ranks and modifier, all spells as SLA, infinite Quicken Spells/round...


Rocks fall.. everything dies... ;)

As said, the request will lead only into broken TO territory. Both builds rely on the same TO cheese with different approaches. It's broken and is imho impractical for the use at the table.

[Jowgen]

It's the feat that gives you access to epic spellcasting. You don't get epic slots until you gain the feat. What you quoted was defining the terms.

Once you gain access to epic spellcasting through the feat, you get the epic spell slots. Otherwise, any character regardless of whether they have casting ability would be able to get epic spell slots as long as they have 10+ ranks in a knowledge skill.

Oh in terms of the RAI, you are absolutely/certainly 100% correct, and any other reading is just willfull abuse of the text. Which is exactly what I'm going for.

The Feat as written does exactly 2 things: grant the ability to develop Epic spells, and grant X number of epic spells per day. It in no way references the slots. The number of spells per day you get happens to use the same calculation formula as the number of slots as described elsewhere, but strictly speaking are not nessecarily a function of the feat.

So I would indeed maintain that any character regardless of whether they have casting ability would be able to get epic spell slots as long as they have 10+ ranks in a knowledge skill. They just don't have the spells/day, or spells known to do anything with them.

And I am sure that this does not result in any weird dysfunctions elsewhere at all. *He lied.*

[Crake]

There are options, but none of them could be considered PO anymore..^^

A) (from my Orochimaru build)
Craftlock + Ice Assassins + Symbiont Template + being Epic lvl to qualify for the Epic feats and their skill rank requirements

Chameleon has access to the Sinker classes spell-list which caps at 2nd lvl spells. As such the craftlock (warlock 12 / chameleon 2 / ...) can take Improved Spellcapacity multiple times and finally Innate Spell.

(edit) abuse the Floating feat and your symbiont army to get the desired feats. (full explanation see build)


B) (from my BoBaFeat build)
Body outside Body + Void Disciple 4 (Moment of Clarity) + being/counting as dragon to qualify for epic feats

The build needs access to 9th lvl spells. Either as wu-jen or as Wizard who did get Body outside Body on his spell list (recaster, wyrm wizard).

- Oder a clone to give you Spell Stowaway: Body outside Body (now you and all clones produce free clones for each BOB cast in reach)

- Use BOB as much as you can
- Order the first 6 to give you Improved Spell Capacity with their Moment of Clarity ability
- Order one to give you Innate Spell: Body outside Body

Note that any missing ranks (!) in skills as requirements can by gained by Moment of Clarity too.

This allows us to produce infinite clones to get infinite feats, ability scores (epic +1 feats), skill ranks and modifier, all spells as SLA, infinite Quicken Spells/round...


Rocks fall.. everything dies... ;)

As said, the request will lead only into broken TO territory. Both builds rely on the same TO cheese with different approaches. It's broken and is imho impractical for the use at the table.

I mean, yeah, it's super easy if you include epic content, I was talking pre-epic. Seems like, however, red mage circle magic is the easiest pre-epic method, just heighten a spell to 20th, take extra slot with snowcasting and sanctum spell to get a 21st level spell slot, use the 21st level spellslot to gain quickened miracle as an at will SLA.

[Quertus]

As there is no rule explicitly barring Epic spells from being used in the crafting of a Knowstone (or magic items in general) we default to the basic rules for casting spells. The lack of fixed level would preclude being able to determine how much a Knowstone of an epic spell should cost, except that they are explicitly treated as 10th level for "situations where spell level is important" and "other determinations".

Also, I have just noticed this:



At no point does it seem to actually require the Epic Spellcasting feat as a prerequesite for getting these spell-slots, or otherwise limit it to Epic characters. So it seems to me that by RAW, any character with sufficient knowledge ranks has these spell slots regardless of their casting ability.

It's just that they do not have any Epic Spells known to use those slots with, normally. I maintain that Knowstone gets around that one.

… that looks like exactly the rules that I was going to look up to show that this *wouldn't* work. Huh. So, how much does a Knowstone cost? Can one start casting epic spells at 7th level by RAW?

Edit: oh, it's part of the feat description. Not *as* broken, then. Still, if there *isn't* text somewhere that says you can't use epic spells for items (which I thought that there was), how much would the Knowstone cost?

[Darg]

Oh in terms of the RAI, you are absolutely/certainly 100% correct, and any other reading is just willfull abuse of the text. Which is exactly what I'm going for.

The Feat as written does exactly 2 things: grant the ability to develop Epic spells, and grant X number of epic spells per day. It in no way references the slots. The number of spells per day you get happens to use the same calculation formula as the number of slots as described elsewhere, but strictly speaking are not nessecarily a function of the feat.

So I would indeed maintain that any character regardless of whether they have casting ability would be able to get epic spell slots as long as they have 10+ ranks in a knowledge skill. They just don't have the spells/day, or spells known to do anything with them.

And I am sure that this does not result in any weird dysfunctions elsewhere at all. *He lied.*

Casts/spells per day = spell slots. I don't know how else to get that across.


Knowstones wouldn't work to give knowledge of epic spells. Epic spells =/= spells. They follow different rules. It's like the difference between spells and invocations.

[Crake]

Edit: oh, it's part of the feat description. Not *as* broken, then. Still, if there *isn't* text somewhere that says you can't use epic spells for items (which I thought that there was), how much would the Knowstone cost?

10(spell level)^2 x1000(base multiplier for knowstones) x10(epic cost multiplier) for a final cost of 1,000,000gp at a market value, with a cost to craft of 500,000gp and 20,000xp.

Assuming it works like that, which I'm not sure it would. Lets be honest though, nobody ever uses any epic spells that have a spellcraft DC above 0, and is thusly both free and instant to develop, so what do you want epic spell knowstones for anyway?

[Darg]

Metamagic, Items, and Epic Spells

Metamagic feats and other epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells.

A character can’t craft a magic item that casts an epic spell, regardless of whether the item is activated with spell completion, a spell trigger, a command word, or is use-activated. Only major artifacts, which are beyond the means of even epic characters to create, can possibly contain magic of this power.

The saving throw against a character’s epic spell has a DC of 20 + the character’s relevant ability score modifier. It’s possible to develop epic spells that have even higher DCs, however, by applying the appropriate factor.

Normal spells are different than epic spells.

[Jowgen]

Casts/spells per day = spell slots. I don't know how else to get that across.


spell slot: The “space” in a spellcaster’s mind dedicated to holding a spell of a particular spell level. A spellcaster has enough spell slots to accommodate an entire day’s allotment of spells. Spellcasters who must prepare their spells in advance generally fill their spell slots during the preparation period, though a few slots can be left open for spells prepared later in the day. A spellcaster can always opt to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell, if desired.

While things get screwy when considering in spontaneous vs prepared caster, Spell slots are technically distinct from Spells/day. As written, the Epic Spellcasting feat grants the latter, while the rules allocating the former are confined to the general rules on epic spellcasting. They are obviously intended to be interchangeable in the case of Epic Spellcasting, but as written I think they are technically still distinct.

In this instance, all we are ultimately after having the mental space available to fill with the magical energy absorbed through Incantifier. My abusive reading is meant to serve as justification that anyone with the appropriate knowledge ranks should be considered to have the mental space to accomodate that.


Knowstones wouldn't work to give knowledge of epic spells. Epic spells =/= spells. They follow different rules. It's like the difference between spells and invocations.

Epic Spells might be their own thing, but as previously quoted, the explicitly follow the normal rules for spellcasting unless specified otherwise. They are explicitly banned from being used in magic items that would cast the epic spell, but Knowstones don't do that. They're merely a wondrous item that would have said spell as a prerequesite. There might be other hurdles to the crafting, but as we'd be using Midgard Dwarf to bypass those entirely, that point is moot.

Ultimately, what we should be left with is a character who has our desired Epic spell as a spell known due to Knowstone, has an epic spell-slot due to the rules for slot allocation sitting outside the Epic Spellcasting feat, but lacks the spells/day to fill and thus cast from that slot due to lacking the feat, which we compensate for by filling that slot via Incantifier and Epic Warlock invocations.

Is it beating the rules within an inch of their life? Absolutely. But we are working in the context of infinite spell recovery, it was never going to be pretty.

[Darg]

While things get screwy when considering in spontaneous vs prepared caster, Spell slots are technically distinct from Spells/day. As written, the Epic Spellcasting feat grants the latter, while the rules allocating the former are confined to the general rules on epic spellcasting. They are obviously intended to be interchangeable in the case of Epic Spellcasting, but as written I think they are technically still distinct.

In this instance, all we are ultimately after having the mental space available to fill with the magical energy absorbed through Incantifier. My abusive reading is meant to serve as justification that anyone with the appropriate knowledge ranks should be considered to have the mental space to accomodate that.

Are you saying that all spellcasters are unable to actually cast metamagic? They get spells per day instead of spell slots which is required for metamagic. The terms are used interchangeably and are not separate in meaning.


Epic Spells might be their own thing, but as previously quoted, the explicitly follow the normal rules for spellcasting unless specified otherwise. They are explicitly banned from being used in magic items that would cast the epic spell, but Knowstones don't do that. They're merely a wondrous item that would have said spell as a prerequesite. There might be other hurdles to the crafting, but as we'd be using Midgard Dwarf to bypass those entirely, that point is moot.

Ultimately, what we should be left with is a character who has our desired Epic spell as a spell known due to Knowstone, has an epic spell-slot due to the rules for slot allocation sitting outside the Epic Spellcasting feat, but lacks the spells/day to fill and thus cast from that slot due to lacking the feat, which we compensate for by filling that slot via Incantifier and Epic Warlock invocations.

Is it beating the rules within an inch of their life? Absolutely. But we are working in the context of infinite spell recovery, it was never going to be pretty.

They follow the basic rules for casting, but nothing says that act like spells in all ways. SLAs follow the basic rules for casting spells too. Doesn't mean they are spells.

[martixy]

Bribe your DM to make any adventuring day so short that you could have half the normal amount of spell slots and still have slots left over. :P

But yeah, echoing AV here-arbitrarily large amounts of slots is not PO, provided you're on a proper caster. Warlocks, for example, have infinite slots (kinda) with their Invocations, but aren't casters like a Wizard or Sorcerer are.

Technically... it cannot be shorter than 8 hours.

If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.

Another approach to the original problem is StP Erudite + power point recovery shenanigans. Add quori power shards and cognizance crystals to taste.
A somewhat more reasonableI cannot believe I'm actually saying this and constrained option, given the limited rate of PP recovery. At least compared to the fully unbounded game states discussed here.

[Remuko]

Normal spells are different than epic spells.

that says they cant craft an item that CASTS an epic spell. knowstones dont cast any spells :amused:

[AvatarVecna]

An epic magic item cannot be created that uses or mimics an epic spell. A major artifact might be able to mimic such a spell, however.

Speaking personally, if I were DMing and having to interpret what counts as "using" or "mimicking" an epic spell, I'd be more inclined to think wide than narrow. Knowstones that teach you the knowledge of how to use an epic spell? Sorry, nope. The way to learn epic spells is to sink a stupid amount of time, GP, and XP into the ability to cast a slightly-more-powerful Fireball.

[Crake]

Speaking personally, if I were DMing and having to interpret what counts as "using" or "mimicking" an epic spell, I'd be more inclined to think wide than narrow. Knowstones that teach you the knowledge of how to use an epic spell? Sorry, nope. The way to learn epic spells is to sink a stupid amount of time, GP, and XP into the ability to cast a slightly-more-powerful Fireball.

Or none of that if the spellcraft DC is mitigated to 0 like it normally is ¬.¬

[AvatarVecna]

Or none of that if the spellcraft DC is mitigated to 0 like it normally is ¬.¬

That's also true. Epic Spellcasting, separately from any item shenanigans, tends to either be so expensive that nothing could be worth the cost...or free, and inherently cheesy and gamebreaking. Alas...

[Serafina]

Echoing Spell (E:SoX) also exists in 3.5, although it's slightly different in that the spell can return to you multiple times, but at 4 lower caster level (until your caster level is too low to cast a spell of that level). That means Echoing Spell can potentially be used for an infinite supply of spells in 3.5 too, if you temporarily increase your caster level by 4 when casting the spell. That would make the spell return in its original condition with the original caster level, so it never expires. In summary:


Apply Echoing Spell metamagic to a spell you cast, at the time you cast it. Easiest way to do it forever is with Spelldancer, although Incantatrix and Divine Metamagic can do it too (at least for a while).
Apply +4 to your casting level when you cast the spell. For example, the feat Elder Giant Magic (also from E:SoX) allows you to apply +3. Temporarily take out your Orange Ioun Stone or whatever for the other +1.


Note this requires the interpretation that Echoing Spell "applies -4 caster level (to the level the spell was cast at) each time it returns", and not "minus 4 multiplied by (number of times it has returned so far) to your original caster level at the time the spell was originally prepared". The feat text just says "treat your caster level as four lower" and "this process repeats itself every time the spell is cast", so doesn't make it clear one way or the other.Alas, 3.5 Echoing Spell only returns to availability after an hour, so you an not quite set up the same loop, since you can not cast it round after round during downtime to set up an arbitrary amount of echoes.

The question is also what Spell you would target - 3.5 does, to my knowledge, not have a spell like Channel the Gift which just re-prepares other spells. Well, there is Absorption (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/complete-arcane--55/absorption--433/index.html) but that is 9th level, and also requires you to be targeted by a ranged spell so that is an additional hoop to jump through.

At which point, you are basically at the build mentioned here in this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24983733&postcount=23). However, Echoing Spell allows you to use this for non-buff purposes, which this build does not mention!
- You stack Absorption with reduced Metamagic (Halruun Elder/Incantatric/Arcane Thesis feat/Easy Metamagic Feat/Practical Metamgic feat/etc.)
with Maximize and Empower (to give you at least 13, up to 15 spell levels back) and Twinned Spell to double that up.
- then, you cast an Echoing Spell (ideally, with reduced metamagic - this matters the most if you want 9th-level spells, obviously) targeting yourself which gets Absorbed.
- those first two castings cost you spell slots, but that is okay, you can live with that, or use Pearls of Power or something
- thanks to Absorption, you can now cast your next spell of equal or lower level for free. Do so, make sure it is also Echoing - and in an hour, that Echo will just be there, ready for you to use whenever!
- make sure to re-cast Absorption as needed (likely every other round).

I may have messed up summarizing the sequence somewhere, but it works for Priya the Prismatic Priestess. What we are changing here is adding Echoing Spell to the spells cast to build up an arbitrary amount of Echoes you can cast at any later time.

[Darg]

that says they cant craft an item that CASTS an epic spell. knowstones dont cast any spells :amused:

And knowstones only mention spells. Nor are epic spells in a class' spell list. Epic spells also do not use spell slots, they use epic spell slots. Epic spells are a different mechanic from spells just as invocations are a different mechanic from spells. Sure, it's easy to ignore this mechanical difference, but then at the same time it's just as easy to ignore any other rule.

[Jowgen]

Are you saying that all spellcasters are unable to actually cast metamagic? They get spells per day instead of spell slots which is required for metamagic. The terms are used interchangeably and are not separate in meaning.

The distinction lies in that, for prepared casters, spell slots can be empty or full once a spell is prepared using that slot, prior to which you might still have spells per day but you can't cast them. Your number of spells/day reduces as you cast them, but your spell-slots don't disappear, they simply become unavailable until use is regained via rest or some other mechanic.

One is the size of the tank, the other is how much gas you have. As a prepared caster, you might have canisters of gas (i.e.spells/day) on hand to use, but until you pour (i.e. preparing) it into the tank (i.e. slots), you can't cast em.

The quote below shows that, for epic spells, the spells/day is a function of available epic spell slots, which I think supports the making of this very pendandic disctinction.


A spellcaster can prepare or cast any epic spell he or she knows as many times per day as he or she has available epic spell slots.

Another distinction is that you can have specific spellslots that are only useable for certain things even though they runs on the same allottment of spells/day. You'll virtually always have the same number of spell-slots and spells/day on a character, and text might not always distinguish the two, but they are technically/functionally distinct.


They follow the basic rules for casting, but nothing says that act like spells in all ways. SLAs follow the basic rules for casting spells too. Doesn't mean they are spells.

I disagree. It's literally in the first line.


What Are Epic Spells?

Epic spells are spells developed from the ground up using a list of magical ingredients called seeds.

[Thurbane]

There was mention of a fast time-flow plane before. Combine that with Festering Anger shenanigans if you like.

[AOKost]

Hey, sorry to res a thread that's likely dead, but you could check out Kingdoms of Kalamar: Player's Guide

Miser with Magic.

Here it is in full for query:

Your character draws upon the minimum amount of arcane energy needed to cast a spell.

Prerequisite: Caster level 7th
Benefit: You can make a Spellcraft roll to retain the use of a spell after you cast it. The spellcraft DC is 10 + twice the spell's level. If you succeed, you managed to conserve enough magical energy, from this and other spells you have cast, that the spell (or spell slots for sorcerors) is not considered spent and may be used again. You may only use this ability on a number of spell levels equal to the ability score modifier appropriate to the type of spells you cast (charisma for sorceror or bard spells for example)

Special: If you fail the roll by 5 or more, you spent insufficient energy to cast the spell at all. You lose the spell or the spell slot, and the spell has no effect.

I've looked for similar feats and abilities, but haven't been able to come across much besides 'infinite mana loops'..

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: The spells run out after 45 days of not being cast.