Expected attack attribute per tier or level?

[Stattick]

Google failed me. What's the expected attribute, for your primary attack attribute, by level or tier? I'd expect 16 at tier one, but when should one get to 18 and then 20? Please don't give me, "As soon as possible", because sometimes there are other build considerations, so I'm trying to figure out the priority for feats vs ability score boosts and so forth.

[Kane0]

Baseline is something like 14 (+2) to start and another +1 per tier up to an 18 (+4), most adventures dont really require optimization.

[Pandamonium]

From my experience you have a 16 in prime at level 4 at the latest.
Usually 18 by level 8-12 (12 if you want a feat at 8th) and finally 20 at level 16 or in some niche cases as late as level 19.

[Composer99]

It seems to me that the slow progression is 14-15 in tier 1, and +1 or 2 each subsequent tier, possibly capping at 18 rather than 20, and the fast progression is 16-17 in tier 1, and +1.5 each subsequent tier, capping at 20 at circa 12th or 16th level. I would say that the standard array indicates 16-17 is what the designers expect you'll start with.

Monster saving throw bonuses and AC don't scale that much from tier to tier, so there isn't much need to take the fast progression. On the other hand, if memory serves, more monsters have proficiency with more saving throws at higher tiers, and are more likely to have magic resistance as well, making the fast progression more important for spellcasters.

The nice thing about a 16-17 to start is that it makes it easier to make room for feats, depending on at what point you want to halt your progression.

[J-H]

I'd generally aim for an 18 by level 8 and a 20 by level 12-16 at the latest. It varies by character. I'm more likely to try to pump it earlier on a caster because DCs are everything, while a rogue or fighty-type has more options.

[OldTrees1]

Levels 1-7: 14-16
Levels 8-11: 14-18
Levels 12-20: 16-18

Yes, you might notice a lack of 20. I prefer interesting improvements over merely increasing numbers. This also deprioritizes DPS (which is already deprioritized due to 5E combat).

Now Paladin Charisma (if playing an Auradin) on the other hand:
Level 6-7: 16-18
Level 8-11: 18-20
Level 12+: 20

[Lunali]

Expected by whom?

The game itself doesn't really demand any particular level of ability. NPCs that resemble PCs typically have primary stats that go from about 14 if they're roughly level 1 up to 18 if they're closer to 20. The important thing (for optimizers) isn't meeting any particular benchmark, but getting the ASI/feat that gives the greatest benefit.

[stoutstien]

Google failed me. What's the expected attribute, for your primary attack attribute, by level or tier? I'd expect 16 at tier one, but when should one get to 18 and then 20? Please don't give me, "As soon as possible", because sometimes there are other build considerations, so I'm trying to figure out the priority for feats vs ability score boosts and so forth.

The DMG goes into this a little bit, +2-3 is considered normal in tier one and adding +1 per tier from there. This is under the parameters of published material so it's one reason it might feel undertuned for a lot of tables.

[x3n0n]

The DMG goes into this a little bit, +2-3 is considered normal in tier one and adding +1 per tier from there. This is under the parameters of published material so it's one reason it might feel undertuned for a lot of tables.

I've been looking for this; can you suggest a page or section or chapter to look at?

[Mastikator]

I prefer to start with 16. At 4 I either go to 18 or pick a feat. But I'm not picking a feat at 6 and/or 8 too.

[MoiMagnus]

How the GM will deal with magical objects is an important point.
The belt of Hill Giant strength is only Rare and set the Strength at 21. Associated potions are only Uncommon.

Assuming a strength-based character in a high magic campaign, you probably don't need more that 14 up until the point where you get this belt (and relying on potions for really important fights in the meantime), and rather invest on Constitution (for early survivability) and mental abilities (for more RP opportunities).

[Keravath]

The Attack modifier is proficiency + stat

Many folks start with a 16 in their primary stat - since it gives them a bit more room for feats at lower levels.

The proficiency scales as:

1-4 +2
5-8 +3
9-12 +4
13-16 +5
17-20 +6

Stats will scale from 14-20 = +2, +3, +4, +5

Depending on the character and how important either attack rolls or spell save DCs are and assuming point buy is being used which limits the primary stat to 16.

1-3 +2/+3 (14/16)
4-7 +3/+4 (16/18 - a fighter has an extra at level 6 which could result in 16/18/20 - most with a 14 would bump it at level 4 except for very specific character concepts)
8-11 +3/+4/+5 (16/18/20 - range depends on MAD vs feats - rogue picks up an extra at 10)
12-15 +4/+5 (18/20 - I think most will boost the primary stat to 18 by level 12 but there are exceptions)
16-18 +4/+5 (18/20 - some folks think the extra feat is more useful than the +1 so never go to 20 in the primary stat)
19-20 +4/+5 (18/20 - some folks think the extra feat is more useful than the +1 so never go to 20 in the primary stat)

I think those would be the most typical range of stat modifiers though I know of characters that started with a 13 in their primary stat and it is still 13 at level 16 but I would think that the exception in general.

Combining - this gives the typical attack bonus by level as:

1-3 +4/+5
4 +5/+6
5-7 +6/+7
8 +6/+7/+8
9-11 +7/+8/+9
12 +8/+9
13-15 +9/+10
16 +9/+10
17-20 +10/+11

So before magic modifications the max to hit caps out at +11 at level 17-20 (except for a barbarian at level 20). This means that a level 20 character has a 50% miss chance against AC22. However, there isn't that much difference in to hit probability between a level 9 character with a 20 stat and a level 20 with an 18 stat (just +1) which is where the entire 5e concept of bounded accuracy comes into play.

For a character who focuses on their primary stat the change in level 1-10 is +4 while level 11-20 adds +2 solely from the change in proficiency.

If a character chooses to leave their primary stat at 14 until level 20 their to hit at level 20 is +8 vs +11 for a stat of 20. For some the trade off is worth it for feats and other abilities and for others it is not.

[LumenPlacidum]

I would expect the following as a low to high, with then a target AC (65% chance to hit) and a very high AC (40% chance to hit) given as calculated from the high to-hit bonus:
Level 1. +4 to +5, target AC 13, very high AC 18
Level 2. +4 to +5, target AC 13, very high AC 18
Level 3. +4 to +5, target AC 13, very high AC 18
Level 4. +4 to +6, target AC 14, very high AC 19
Level 5. +5 to +7, target AC 15, very high AC 20
Level 6. +5 to +7, target AC 15, very high AC 20
Level 7. +5 to +7, target AC 15, very high AC 20
Level 8. +6 to +8, target AC 16, very high AC 21
Level 9. +7 to +9, target AC 17, very high AC 22
Level 10. +7 to +9, target AC 17, very high AC 22
Level 11. +7 to +9, target AC 17, very high AC 22
Level 12. +7 to +9, target AC 17, very high AC 22
Level 13. +8 to +10, target AC 18, very high AC 23
Level 14. +8 to +10, target AC 18, very high AC 23
Level 15. +8 to +10, target AC 18, very high AC 23
Level 16. +9 to +10, target AC 18, very high AC 23
Level 17. +10 to +11, target AC 19, very high AC 24
Level 18. +10 to +11, target AC 19, very high AC 24
Level 19. +10 to +11, target AC 19, very high AC 24
Level 20. +10 to +11, target AC 19, very high AC 24

Characters typically only ever get above the high as users of the Archery style or users of magical weapons (pact of the blade warlocks, artificers, forge clerics) The maximum possible, unless you give items that extend beyond this, or if you roll for stats, is:
Level 1. +7 (proficiency, attribute of 16, archery style)
Level 2. +7 (proficiency, attribute of 16, archery style)
Level 3. +8 (proficiency, attribute of 16, archery style, +1 weapon)
Level 4. +9 (proficiency, attribute of 18, archery style, +1 weapon)
Level 5. +10 (proficiency, attribute of 18, archery style, +1 weapon)
Level 6. +10 (proficiency, attribute of 18, archery style, +1 weapon)
Level 7. +10 (proficiency, attribute of 18, archery style, +1 weapon)
Level 8. +11 (proficiency, attribute of 20, archery style, +1 weapon)
Level 9. +12 (proficiency, attribute of 20, archery style, +1 weapon)
Level 10. +12 (proficiency, attribute of 20, archery style, +1 weapon)
Level 11. +13 (proficiency, attribute of 20, archery style, +2 weapon)
Level 12. +14 (proficiency, attribute of 20, archery style, +3 weapon)
Level 13. +15 (proficiency, attribute of 20, archery style, +3 weapon)
Level 14. +15 (proficiency, attribute of 20, archery style, +3 weapon)
Level 15. +15 (proficiency, attribute of 20, archery style, +3 weapon)
Level 16. +15 (proficiency, attribute of 20, archery style, +3 weapon)
Level 17. +16 (proficiency, attribute of 20, archery style, +3 weapon)
Level 18. +16 (proficiency, attribute of 20, archery style, +3 weapon)
Level 19. +16 (proficiency, attribute of 20, archery style, +3 weapon)
Level 20. +16 (proficiency, attribute of 20, archery style, +3 weapon)

Someone might find something that I missed for the bonuses to hit...

[stoutstien]

I've been looking for this; can you suggest a page or section or chapter to look at?
AFB but I remember it being in a very odd location. I'll update this when I get my hands on it.

[cZak]

Just straight numbers, it depends on what you want the odds to be.
The monster stats by CR table (DMG 274) has Tier 1 AC at 15. A character with a +3 stat bonus with the +2 Prof has a 50% to hit.

Looking down the column, the AC seems to track with proficiency bonus. So seems the 50% tracks up the tiers

Granted, there are some AC's above the recommended, but the PC's are also gaming the system; Monk stun, divine Bless, Battlemaster knocking prone, Barbarian grappling (restraining)


I think it's a mutual dance between the DM & the player's as to what's expected/ enjoyable

[Tanarii]

Based on typically fighting CR-3 (or 3 steps down for CR2 or less) and the DMG table, its 16 until level 10, 18 after that, with 20 optional.

[Composer99]

For what it's worth, some years ago I calculated the mean AC of monsters in the MM and got around 14.

[Eric Diaz]

IIRC monsters get +1 to AC for every three levels; I'd guess the same goes for Characters attack stat.

So you'd start with +4/+5 and in the end you can get to +11, which is close enough to 1/3 per level. Of course, numbers could go higher with a fighting style, magic weapons, etc., but apparently this is not assumed.

Maybe something along these lines (I just threw the math in excel, I haven't considered that you're not augmenting your ability scores in level 20, etc.)

level/ bonus
1 4
2 5
3 5
4 5
5 6
6 6
7 6
8 7
9 7
10 7
11 8
12 8
13 8
14 9
15 9
16 9
17 10
18 10
19 10
20 11

[Eric Diaz]

Level 20. +16 (proficiency, attribute of 20, archery style, +3 weapon)

Someone might find something that I missed for the bonuses to hit...

IIRC, as ridiculous as this sounds, ammunition and weapon bonuses stacks, so you could get +19. But I might be misremembering.

[stoutstien]

Now I remember where the DMG hints at it. under the using ability scores > DCs it says a DC of 30 is possible with a roll of 19 or 20 if they have both proficiency and have maxed the relevant stat. Seeing how that both the relevant stat/prof is most likely at least equal to thier attack modifier that sets the tier 4 expectations. The same paragraph has similar description on a DC at level 10 so it also has a relevant progression or +8 with +4 mod/prof.

[Man_Over_Game]

You could also find the average AC of monsters with CR equal to the starting level of each tier. As monsters gain +1-+5 AC, players should be doing the same.

[Tanarii]

You could also find the average AC of monsters with CR equal to the starting level of each tier. As monsters gain +1-+5 AC, players should be doing the same.
Better to do starting level minus 3.

So CR 1/8 at 1st level, then CR 2, CR 8, and CR 14. Optional CR 17 for cap.

Or do proficiency level minus 3.

CR 1/8, CR 2, CR 6, CR 10, and CR 14. Optional CR 17 for cap.

Most battles won't be against solo creatures CR = party level, so that's not a good standard to use.

[Man_Over_Game]

Better to do starting level minus 3.

So CR 1/8 at 1st level, then CR 2, CR 8, and CR 14. Optional CR 17 for cap.

Or do proficiency level minus 3.

CR 1/8, CR 2, CR 6, CR 10, and CR 14. Optional CR 17 for cap.

Most battles won't be against solo creatures CR = party level, so that's not a good standard to use.

Valid point!

[LudicSavant]

I'm trying to figure out the priority for feats vs ability score boosts and so forth.

There's no one general answer -- optimal ASI priority is always going to depend on the specific synergies of the build and party.

I can at least say that stat boosts are often underrated by players because of the old "it's just a negligible 5%" mistaken intuition, explained here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24862465&postcount=151). A bonus to your primary stat is worth a good deal more than a 5% difference in outcomes and will outperform options like, say, GWM more often than some new players assume.