What Serini doesn't know

[Quartz]

Serinin clearly knows a lot about Xykon and she's been watching the bugbear village for some time so she probably knows a fair bit about Redcloak.

But she doesn't appear to have been eavesdropping on Durkon's conversation with Redcloak. So she doesn't know Redcloak's plan. She also doesn't know about the gods' plans for the world.

What else - plot-related - of import does she not know?

[MoiMagnus]

I'm not convinced that she knows V's infernal deal.

[Ginasius]

I'm not convinced that she knows V's infernal deal.


By the way, does Thor or any other god of any pantheon know anything about this?

[ziproot]

By the way, does Thor or any other god of any pantheon know anything about this?

Depends on if Banjo is considered a "god of any pantheon" :smallsmile:
EDIT: Maybe not actually. I don't know if Roy told anybody else about V's thing with the demons, daemons, and devils.

[facw]

Perhaps not as plot-critical, but she doesn't know Xykon anywhere near as well as she claims if she thinks that the lot of Kobolds and Orcs is likely to improve under Xykon's rule.

[dancrilis]

By the way, does Thor or any other god of any pantheon know anything about this?

At least Eugene seems to have a clue as do the angels or the upper planes, (panel 9 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html)).

Whether the gods were informed? We don't know for sure - but I would say it is likely.


Perhaps not as plot-critical, but she doesn't know Xykon anywhere near as well as she claims if she thinks that the lot of Kobolds and Orcs is likely to improve under Xykon's rule.
Why wouldn't they Xykon has shown no particular malice towards the Bugbears, Hobgoblins or Monsters hiding in the Darkness that he has worked with.

Being around Xykon is dangerous - but there is no indication that he life under Xykon would be worst then life under the current setup, providing Xykon is kept amused many might be better off.

[CountDVB]

Why wouldn't they Xykon has shown no particular malice towards the Bugbears, Hobgoblins or Monsters hiding in the Darkness that he has worked with.

Being around Xykon is dangerous - but there is no indication that he life under Xykon would be worst then life under the current setup, providing Xykon is kept amused many might be better off.

With Xykon, it’s all about amusement. He has zero care to anything with a pulse. He’s basically that mean kid with a magnifying glass to ants, but taken to a whole new level. After all, he needs some way to relieve his boredom so causing mass havoc with few that could stop him would be something he’d do

[dancrilis]

With Xykon, it’s all about amusement. He has zero care to anything with a pulse. He’s basically that mean kid with a magnifying glass to ants, but taken to a whole new level. After all, he needs some way to relieve his boredom so causing mass havoc with few that could stop him would be something he’d do

But he doesn't do it - he could have wasted Gobbotopia, The Bugbear Village, etc.

Xykon could likely wipe Cliffport of the map without the Snarl, Gate, Ritual etc - the authorities of that town couldn't even stop Nale and Co killing 417 people, if Xykon shows up I don't see them doing better - but again he doesn't.

Now we do know that Xykon has wiped villages off the map before and he might do it again - but mostly he seems to like his entertainment to be fairly small scale, slaves fighting each other, a paladin fighting a pack of dire wolverines, and unlike Tarquin (for example) he doesn't care about the populace being bored so he likely wouldn't even bother with the level that The Empire of Blood goes for.

We know that much of the world is already controlled by villains - throwing one more above them might actually result in a lot of the current villains getting killed and if Xykon can be kept entertained then the general populaces of those areas might be better off.

[halfeye]

We don't know what or how much Serini doesn't know.

It's not like a logic puzzle where you can work stuff out, we just don't know.

[Ionathus]

By the way, does Thor or any other god of any pantheon know anything about this?

The IFCC seems to think (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) they were at least witnessed, and perhaps known about, from "three planes away". Whether or not the gods would chalk that up to "fiends doing fiend stuff" or something more elaborate is up to interpretation.

My guess is that the gods know about the IFCC, but not their motives. They maybe don't even consider them a big threat.


Perhaps not as plot-critical, but she doesn't know Xykon anywhere near as well as she claims if she thinks that the lot of Kobolds and Orcs is likely to improve under Xykon's rule.

The hobgoblins seem to be doing better under Xykon. Not that he wouldn't massacre them all in a heartbeat if the whim struck him, but it's hard to argue that Gobbotopia isn't an immediately apparent positive for the hobgoblins.

I didn't get the impression she was saying "Xykon is the best way to fix the lot of Kobolds & Trolls" -- I got more of a vibe of "societal restructuring (including what species/race has the most power) is still preferable to the annihilation of the world. And anyway, not everybody is happy with the status quo, even if you paladins are."

[Jason]

The hobgoblins seem to be doing better under Xykon. Not that he wouldn't massacre them all in a heartbeat if the whim struck him, but it's hard to argue that Gobbotopia isn't an immediately apparent positive for the hobgoblins.
That is certainly open for argument. They went from a relatively safe existence in the mountains, where they were prospering and at peace with their neighbors, to a city under a rift in reality inhabited by a god-slaying abomination that has previously destroyed and devoured billions of worlds and might at any moment emerge enough to devour them all.

Oh, and they have to constantly defend this city they have taken by conquest from raiding parties of elves and surviving Azurites, and hope the non-goblinoid nations around them don't ban together to destroy them.

But at least they got a bunch of slaves out of the deal, right?

Edit: That's also ignoring how many of them died in the war to take Azure City. Those dead hobgoblins certainly would have been better off living in the mountains.

[Ionathus]

That is certainly open for argument. They went from a relatively safe existence in the mountains, where they were prospering and at peace with their neighbors, to a city under a rift in reality inhabited by a god-slaying abomination that has previously destroyed and devoured billions of worlds and might at any moment emerge enough to devour them all.

Oh, and they have to constantly defend this city they have taken by conquest from raiding parties of elves and surviving Azurites, and hope the non-goblinoid nations around them don't ban together to destroy them.

But at least they got a bunch of slaves out of the deal, right?

Edit: That's also ignoring how many of them died in the war to take Azure City. Those dead hobgoblins certainly would have been better off living in the mountains.

Putting aside whether or not they were actually prospering in the mountains, they didn't seem to have a lot of political power. The trade deals with Cliffport & others seemed to be a really big deal to them. And regarding an anti-Gobbotopia alliance, Hinjo mentions in his wedding address that nobody wants to pick a fight with Gobbotopia -- specifically due to fear of Xykon.

Regarding the Snarl, I still don't buy that the mountains would be any safer. If it gets out, it's gonna unmake the entire world*. So Gobbotopia gets eaten a minute earlier than their old mountains -- so what? As Haley put it, they're in a really good place right now, assuming the world doesn't get devoured next week (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html).

I'm not saying Xykon has been the perfect cure for the goblinoids' woes. He's very clearly a big problem and always has been. He would likely continue to abuse and mistreat whoever was around him, including goblinoids. Nobody would be safe with Xykon as World Ruler. But it's hard to look at Gobbotopia and the Azurites right now and argue that the balance of power hasn't been shifted in the "monsters'" favor because of Xykon being in charge.

*I'm aware of your theory that Gobbotopia will be specifically Fridged to teach Redcloak a lesson. I still don't see how that would improve the story. I'm not ruling it out, but it just doesn't feel like the story is going in that direction at all.

[Jason]

Putting aside whether or not they were actually prospering in the mountains, they didn't seem to have a lot of political power. The trade deals with Cliffport & others seemed to be a really big deal to them. And regarding an anti-Gobbotopia alliance, Hinjo mentions in his wedding address that nobody wants to pick a fight with Gobbotopia -- specifically due to fear of Xykon.
They were growing their population in the mountains, and did they really need political power or formal legal trade deals?


Regarding the Snarl, I still don't buy that the mountains would be any safer. If it gets out, it's gonna unmake the entire world. So Gobbotopia gets eaten a minute earlier than their old mountains -- so what? As Haley put it, they're in a really good place right now, assuming the world doesn't get devoured next week (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html). If it gets out completely no, nowhere is safe, but we've seen it attack people near the rifts without getting completely loose, and Gobbotopia is directly beneath a rift.


I'm not saying Xykon has been the perfect cure for the goblinoids' woes. He's very clearly a big problem and always has been. He would likely continue to abuse and mistreat whoever was around him, including goblinoids. Nobody would be safe with Xykon as World Ruler. But it's hard to look at Gobbotopia and the Azurites right now and argue that the balance of power hasn't been shifted in the "monsters'" favor because of Xykon being in charge.I could argue it. The hobgoblins were at peace In the mountains. Now large numbers of them are dead and they've become visible as a power to their neighbors. Becoming a political force is only a benefit if it makes them safer or more prosperous. Has It?

And they've taken large numbers of slaves. If anything that will further harden their culture further towards favoring violence and dominance through strength.

[Ionathus]

I could argue it. The hobgoblins were at peace In the mountains. Now large numbers of them are dead and they've become visible as a power to their neighbors. Becoming a political force is only a benefit if it makes them safer or more prosperous. Has It?

And they've taken large numbers of slaves. If anything that will further harden their culture further towards favoring violence and dominance through strength.

I never said anything about peace or prosperity or social progress. I'm talking about power. Political power, cultural power. Nobody was talking about the hobgoblins until they conquered Azure City, and now they are. That's a kind of power you can't get from hiding out in the mountains, having babies, making flower crowns, and singing Kumbaya. Maybe some of the hobgoblins wanted that different kind of power. Maybe their Literally Evil god of war wanted them to have that kind of power.

I don't personally agree with it, and I certainly don't consider the conquest of Azure City a good thing. I agree with literally everything you've said about how the conquest painted a target on their backs, killed plenty of people on both sides, ruined their peaceful mountain settlements, and sent the goblinoids spinning down a dangerous path of favoring violence and slavery.

But that's not my point. The point is that Xykon has already taken ownership of a small domain (Azurite territory) and that conquest led to a societal restructuring (Azurites forced out, Goblinoids take over) that changed the status quo in favor of a monstrous race. All the Azurites seem to be saying "this [conquest] is the absolute worst thing that could have ever happened!" and the goblinoids seem to be saying "eh, it's a mixed bag."

And ultimately, consider that maybe the goblinoids are so willing to go to war and take major territories, risking their personal happiness and cultural health in the process, because they've lacked any sort of political power for recorded history. Maybe they're sick of living in such an obviously cool adventure location (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html). Maybe they want to be seen as a valid sovereignty, and not just exist at the whims of other world powers and random bands of adventurers.

Serini's pointing out that the status, as Dr. Horrible puts it, is not quo.

[Dausuul]

What I'm wondering is what she does know that she hasn't revealed. Remember the conversation at the end of the last book:

Serini: "I guess we're finally doing this, huh? Fun while it lasted, right?"
Nameless Minion: "What was, Boss?"
Serini: "Existing."

That exchange is hard to square with her explanations to Lien and O-Chul. The way she tells it to them, she is trying to preserve existence--her own as much as anyone else's. I suppose you could argue she expects to be killed by Xykon, but then what does "we're finally doing this" mean?

Then, too, why is she explaining anything to the paladins at all? It's one thing for Xykon or Tarquin or Nale to monologue for no good reason--those guys revel in the conventions of villainy. But it seems way out of character for Serini. Why didn't she just pour her potion down the paladins' throats without a word?

I think it's a huge mistake to take anything Serini says at face value.

[halfeye]

Serini's pointing out that the status, as Dr. Horrible puts it, is not quo.

Status quo is what is, whatever that is, it's not saying that things are good, or bad, it's saying they are.

[Ionathus]

Status quo is what is, whatever that is, it's not saying that things are good, or bad, it's saying they are.

Yes, I'm aware of the actual meaning. That's what the quote is referencing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePiKE83sAIg) -- someone who wants the status quo to change.

[RMS Oceanic]

I reckon she doesn't know about:

- Redcloak's plan
- The Gods' various positions and schemes
- The do-while loop the gods are trapped in
- The world within the rift
- To invest in Goblin Dan's now to make a killing
- When the Oracle will next be killed
- What the MitD is
- What Soon's position actually was, rather than how she has interpreted it.

[ziproot]

I reckon she doesn't know about:

- Redcloak's plan
- The Gods' various positions and schemes
- The do-while loop the gods are trapped in
- The world within the rift
- To invest in Goblin Dan's now to make a killing
- When the Oracle will next be killed
- What the MitD is
- What Soon's position actually was, rather than how she has interpreted it.

Don't forget Vaarsuvius' gender :smallsmile:

[Thecommander236]

I assume that Xykon put Cloister on the area? Why wouldn't he after all?

[Mike Havran]

I am more interested in what she actually ''knows'' Xykon is going to do with the Gate if she is willing to compromise his enemies. Had she actually spend a thought on how the Gate is going to help Xykon to rule the world? How can she know Xykon won't blow out the gate just to see if he can?

[Liquor Box]

We don't know what or how much Serini doesn't know.

It's not like a logic puzzle where you can work stuff out, we just don't know.

We know that the Scribble had a deal which allowed them to know if another gate was destroyed, but they agreed to not monitor one another beyond that. We know that Serini has knowledge of the final moments of the destruction of Soon's gate, but she hasn't mentioned any knowledge of the gates/Order/Paladins/Azure City beyond that, which is consistent with the Scribble's deal. I think it's reasonable to assume she also has knowledge about the end of the other two gates (as in the panel where they were destroyed), because that would also be consistent.

We know that she knows who Xykon is, that he's opening her doors and that he's very powerful, and she implies that she thinks he wants a gate but not to destroy it.

We also know she has whatever knowledge the Order of the Scribble had about the Snarl and the gates.

She also might have heard a little bit of the Paladin's conversation before she shot them, which is consistent with her now seeming to know they have allies (or she might have spotted the Order and assumed they were allies of the paladins). This is pretty uncertain though - a whole cauldren of amnesia poison seems a lot for eight people, so she may be assuming there are a lot more of the Saphire Guard coming.

Beyond those things, you are right. It's possible she knows more, but there's indication of that so it's entirely speculative, and I have my doubts at any attempt to logically justify one scenario over another.

[TRH]

By the way, does Thor or any other god of any pantheon know anything about this?

Tiamat called up Director Lee about the incident with the black dragons, so she clearly knew who was to blame for it.

[Squire Doodad]

Serini doesn't know why kids like the delicious taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch

[KorvinStarmast]

I think it's a huge mistake to take anything Serini says at face value. Standard rogue, really. :smallyuk:


I reckon she doesn't know about:

- What Soon's position actually was, rather than how she has interpreted it. Yep.

[Dion]

Serini doesn’t know the OotS are the protagonists in the seventh and final book, and the dramatic question to be answered isn’t “how will Serini save the world” but instead “how will OotS save the world”.

Hopefully Elan or Julio can explain it to her,

[Squire Doodad]

What I'm wondering is what she does know that she hasn't revealed. Remember the conversation at the end of the last book:

Serini: "I guess we're finally doing this, huh? Fun while it lasted, right?"
Nameless Minion: "What was, Boss?"
Serini: "Existing."


I'd argue that this could be a sign of Serini's view of her own role.
She's old, she's up against more firepower than anyone has seen since her own party, and there's just one gate left holding back the soul-eating abomination.
Serini probably expects to end up dead within the next month, potentially even eaten by the Snarl, depending on how things go.



Alternatively, if her minion was a summoned creature, this may have had no particular meaning and was just Serini doing a jab at her summon since she finally burned a scroll on this. In that case this was just Rich building up tension, despite the fact that in hindsight it would have just been Serini making a sardonic joke.

[Precure]

Haley: "You know nothing, Serini Toormuck."

[Ruck]

I think the one thing it's clear Serini doesn't know is that the gods will almost certainly pull the plug on the world if Xykon does get the gate, given that her reason for trying to stop the paladins and the Order is that she is trying to preserve this world.

[JonahFalcon]

That is certainly open for argument. They went from a relatively safe existence in the mountains, where they were prospering and at peace with their neighbors, to a city under a rift in reality inhabited by a god-slaying abomination that has previously destroyed and devoured billions of worlds and might at any moment emerge enough to devour them all.

Oh, and they have to constantly defend this city they have taken by conquest from raiding parties of elves and surviving Azurites, and hope the non-goblinoid nations around them don't ban together to destroy them.

But at least they got a bunch of slaves out of the deal, right?

Edit: That's also ignoring how many of them died in the war to take Azure City. Those dead hobgoblins certainly would have been better off living in the mountains.

Xykon has no problem having hobgoblins murdered and raised as zombies. Hell, remember how the wall was breached -- a pile of dead bodies and an army of zombies strolling up them.

Gobbotopia may as well be a zombie-raising resource for Xykon.

[Mic_128]

What I'm wondering is what she does know that she hasn't revealed. Remember the conversation at the end of the last book:

Serini: "I guess we're finally doing this, huh? Fun while it lasted, right?"
Nameless Minion: "What was, Boss?"
Serini: "Existing."

That exchange is hard to square with her explanations to Lien and O-Chul. The way she tells it to them, she is trying to preserve existence--her own as much as anyone else's. I suppose you could argue she expects to be killed by Xykon, but then what does "we're finally doing this" mean?

"Finally intervening" is my guess. Things were fine before, however she feels she has to intervene now, because she believes the Paladins will destroy the gate.

[KorvinStarmast]

in hindsight it would have just been Serini making a sardonic joke. That's where I'll lay the notional five dollar bet in Vegas.

Haley: "You know nothing, Serini Toormuck." Works doubly well since Haley has red hair. :smallbiggrin:

[Dr.Zero]

About the happiness of the goblinoids, I suppose we should treat them as everyone else.

And, as a rule of thumb, no one is a better judge of his own happiness than himself.

They seemed very excited and happy to go to stomp Azurites, they managed to do so, so, according to their own opinion -or at least the opinion showed to us while they were marching toward Azure City- they should be happier now than before.