Did Tsukiko worship any god(s)?

[gustmes]

As a Mythic Theurge, Tsukiko has levels in a divine spellcaster class, which I presume it would be cleric (or something like favored soul). If that is the case, did she worship any god? Is there any indication in any strip about which religion she followed, or otherwise where did her divine spells come from?

[dancrilis]

She worshipped The Twelve Gods.


Tsukiko uses the same color for her divine magic as the Azurite priests because they both worship the Twelve Gods, who are worshipped as a pantheon by all alignments in Azure City.


Also, this. The Twelve Gods are worshipped as a pantheon, by everyone, including evil characters like Kubota and Tsukiko.


This is also supported by panel 13 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html).

[woweedd]

Probably Rat, given some indications. There are rules for being a follower of a Pantheon, and, so long as your alignment matches one member, they'll keep granting you clerical powers.

[Finagle]

Followers of the Twelve Gods worship the whole pantheon at once. Rat is shown as the "evil" one, but it could be any of them. I wish they could have been developed more, but they weren't. In our world, the 12 signs of the Chinese zodiac are assigned to you by the year of your birth. For example, it's the Year of the Bovine right now (sometimes translated to "Ox" or "Bull", but the Chinese character means a larger category. For example, Year of the Rat is better understood as "year of the mustelid".

[halfeye]

For example, it's the Year of the Bovine right now (sometimes translated to "Ox" or "Bull", but the Chinese character means a larger category. For example, Year of the Rat is better understood as "year of the mustelid".

Eh? Rats aren't mustelids. Badgers, stoats and otters are mustelids.

[Gurgeh]

"Mustelid" is definitely wrong; perhaps they meant "muroid" instead? Not that words in natural languages have neat mappings to phylogenetic clades anyway (look at the English-language uses of "bug" - even when talking about animals it's usually not "correct" in a scientific sense).

But it makes sense for it to mean, say, "rat, mouse, similarly shaped creature" instead of being ultra-specific. Lots of words work that way. Honestly, I think the better example within the eastern zodiac would have been the goat (or sheep, or ram, or... you get the point).

[halfeye]

"Mustelid" is definitely wrong; perhaps they meant "muroid" instead? Not that words in natural languages have neat mappings to phylogenetic clades anyway (look at the English-language uses of "bug" - even when talking about animals it's usually not "correct" in a scientific sense).

But it makes sense for it to mean, say, "rat, mouse, similarly shaped creature" instead of being ultra-specific. Lots of words work that way. Honestly, I think the better example within the eastern zodiac would have been the goat (or sheep, or ram, or... you get the point).

Yeah, murid is confusable, but at the level of Mustelid, it would be Rodent, and that doesn't seem so confusable. The chinese word probably is a portmanteau of small creatures, possibly Rodent isn't a good fit, but I can't believe that if rats and mice are included Mustelid is a better fit.

[Gift Jeraff]

I don't get why everyone assumes Rat is the only Evil Southern god. I like to think there is at least 1 per alignment.

[Ron Miel]

Is there direct evidence he's evil at all? He's shown to be a friend of the newly ascended Dark One, but that doesn't prove he's evil.

[Gurgeh]

Yeah, murid is confusable, but at the level of Mustelid, it would be Rodent, and that doesn't seem so confusable.
Mustelidae and Muridae are both taxonomic families, the same Linnaean rank. Rodentia is an order, way higher up the chain (and casting a far wider net); the mustelids' equivalent order would be Carnivora. The idea of strict ranked taxonomy is somewhat on the way out in favour of cladistics (groupings that consist entirely of organisms that are more closely related to one another than to anything not in the group), at any rate.

[Peelee]

I don't get why everyone assumes Rat is the only Evil Southern god. I like to think there is at least 1 per alignment.

Aye. 9 alignments, 12 gods, odds are there ain't just one evil one.

[Rrmcklin]

I don't get why everyone assumes Rat is the only Evil Southern god. I like to think there is at least 1 per alignment.

Same. It seems similar to assume that Loki is the only Evil God of the North because he's the only one that associated with the Dark One.


Is there direct evidence he's evil at all? He's shown to be a friend of the newly ascended Dark One, but that doesn't prove he's evil.

The gods who associated with the Dark One were explicitly said to be some of the evil ones. So even if you don't want to call that explicit confirmation it, it's definitely evidence. Then again, Loki is the stand out and you still had some people arguing that he might not have been evil either.

[Gurgeh]

The explicit mention of the evil gods taking the Dark One's side in Start of Darkness only depicts Loki and Tiamat - but Rat is standing with them in what may be an alternative depiction of the same event in 1143, so it's a reasonable association.

Beyond those three, it's pretty hard to argue against Hel and Fenrir ("Tear down the world! Murder everyone! Piss on their graves!") being evil. Some other gods in the Northern pantheon are open for debate, and we haven't really seen enough of the Southern and Western gods to judge.

[hroþila]

Fun fact: names for cats and various mustelids were often interchangeable in ancient times, and the very word "cat" might originally have referred to any domesticated mustelid. I don't think this is ever going to be more relevant than in this thread.

[Finagle]

Well, here I was trying to show off when asked if it was the Year of the Rat or the Year of the Mouse, as it gets translated as both, and I was informed it was a higher classification that included both. Maybe this comic about the "Year of the Goat" will help it make more sense.

https://i.imgur.com/cZnjaVf.jpg

[The MunchKING]

Same. It seems similar to assume that Loki is the only Evil God of the North because he's the only one that associated with the Dark One.

The problem with that comparison is the North have had more of the members fleshed out, so we can be pretty sure Fenrir and Hel are evil.

But the South hasn't. We know very little about any of the individual God's personalities. They are worshipped collectively, so they may not even HAVE distinct personalities.

[Doug Lampert]

Followers of the Twelve Gods worship the whole pantheon at once. Rat is shown as the "evil" one, but it could be any of them. I wish they could have been developed more, but they weren't. In our world, the 12 signs of the Chinese zodiac are assigned to you by the year of your birth. For example, it's the Year of the Bovine right now (sometimes translated to "Ox" or "Bull", but the Chinese character means a larger category. For example, Year of the Rat is better understood as "year of the mustelid".

I occasionally note that I was born early enough in the year that it was prior to the Chinese new year, so I actually am a Rabbit when if you just go by the year you'd expect dragon.

[Rrmcklin]

The problem with that comparison is the North have had more of the members fleshed out, so we can be pretty sure Fenrir and Hel are evil.

But the South hasn't. We know very little about any of the individual God's personalities. They are worshipped collectively, so they may not even HAVE distinct personalities.

I mean, that doesn't actually address my point. People were talking as if Rat was the, as in singular, evil god of the Southern Pantheon before we got exploration of the North.

And going "they're worshiped collectively so they might not be distinct from one another at all" just sounds faulty on its face because they have been talked about and shown in individual roles, even if not to the extent the Northern Gods have.

[arimareiji]

Put me down for "Although I imagine she counted herself among the worshipers of one or more gods, the main one she worshiped was the one between her ears."

It can be funny and/or a bit sad to give pet names to other parts of yourself (e.g. the "Trouser Titan")... but it's almost always really sad to give your ego the name of "Odin", "Rat", or what have you.

[Squire Doodad]

Aye. 9 alignments, 12 gods, odds are there ain't just one evil one.

If they're the balanced-oriented kind of people, maybe there's 1 apiece, followed by a second for each of NG, NE, LN and CN
EDIT: Let's say NG, NE and TN because I had one too many. Blame Peelee.


The explicit mention of the evil gods taking the Dark One's side in Start of Darkness only depicts Loki and Tiamat - but Rat is standing with them in what may be an alternative depiction of the same event in 1143, so it's a reasonable association.

Beyond those three, it's pretty hard to argue against Hel and Fenrir ("Tear down the world! Murder everyone! Piss on their graves!") being evil. Some other gods in the Northern pantheon are open for debate, and we haven't really seen enough of the Southern and Western gods to judge.

Well, based on Malack's statement (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), we can probably guess Nergal is Neutral with an Evil...Malack was the high priest, right?
In any case, we haven't seen much of them, and probably won't.

As for the South...
If I had to guess, Monkey is probably a god of forging or craftsmanship (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html), while I think Rooster was mentioned to be an "oracle" style god. I'd guess Ox is a god of fertility and harvest because, you know, oxen, but I don't think much about the rest has been mentioned in the comic.

It's possible Tsukiko specifically worshipped Rat among the 12, but for all we know Dog is an Evil god of magic and necromancy (dogs dig up bones, right?) who appreciated Tuskiko's take on using undead. There's probably not much to be gained from wondering about it.

[Peelee]

If they're the balanced-oriented kind of people, maybe there's 1 apiece, followed by a second for each of NG, NE, LN and CN

That's 13.

[Squire Doodad]

That's 13.

One NG, one NE, one TN then?
Not that it matters, it could be one LG one TN and one CE for all I care.

[Gurgeh]

Well, based on Malack's statement (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), we can probably guess Nergal is Neutral with an Evil...Malack was the high priest, right?
In any case, we haven't seen much of them, and probably won't.
Malack's statement explicitly casts doubt on Nergal being evil, though given his broader deceptions around his vampiric condition I wouldn't fault anyone who takes it as an attempt to make doubt for doubt's sake rather than an assertion that Nergal is not evil.

With the very limited information presented to us, you could probably make a reasonable case for Nergal fitting any of the LE corner alignments (LN, LE, NE). Malack himself was the high priest of the Empire of Blood, but not necessarily Nergal's principal servant (I feel there's some semantic collision there).

[woweedd]

Malack's statement explicitly casts doubt on Nergal being evil, though given his broader deceptions around his vampiric condition I wouldn't fault anyone who takes it as an attempt to make doubt for doubt's sake rather than an assertion that Nergal is not evil.

With the very limited information presented to us, you could probably make a reasonable case for Nergal fitting any of the LE corner alignments (LN, LE, NE). Malack himself was the high priest of the Empire of Blood, but not necessarily Nergal's principal servant (I feel there's some semantic collision there).
...OK, you remember that trick Tarquin pulled where he said he’d send forces to the Free City of Doom, but not what side they’d be on? I think that’s basically what Malack was doing when he said that death gods and their Clerics aren’t nessicarly evil. He’s not technically saying anything untrue, but he’s concealing the truth. All of which is to say that I do think Nergal is just as evil as Malack.

[hamishspence]

If they're the balanced-oriented kind of people, maybe there's 1 apiece, followed by a second for each of NG, NE, LN and CN
EDIT: Let's say NG, NE and TN because I had one too many. Blame Peelee.


My theory has tended to be "One for every Outer Plane that isn't at least Mildly Evil".

So -

Outlands (N)
Pandemonium (CN to CE)
Limbo (CN)
Arcadia (CN to CG)
Arborea (CG)
Beastlands (CG to NG)
Elysium (NG)
Bytopia (NG to LG)
Celestia (LG)
Arcadia (LN to LG)
Mechanus (LN)
Acheron (LN to LE)

The OOTS versions of these, at least.

That's 12. Rat would be LE, mildly, and live in Acheron, same plane as the Dark One, hence Rat's being painted as one of his few "allies among the evil gods" - sharing a plane meant coming to some kind of truce.

It allows for there to be clerics of all 9 alignments (N deity in the Outlands can have NE clerics) while still keeping the emphasis on them being biased toward Good, with Azure City's being strongly afflilated with Good (albeit falling down in some specific areas).

[Shadowknight12]

Personally I'd err on the side of extra neutral alignments instead of extra good and evil ones, since that seems less prone to conflict and more able to cover followers of all moral dispositions (at least as far as good and evil go), so my personal bet for the 12 Gods would be 1 for every alignment, plus an extra CN, TN and LN.

This makes both the evil and the good gods outvoted 2 to 1 and almost guarantees the neutral gods will go unimpeded as a voting block, since even if the good and the evil gods team up, that still merely deadlocks them 50/50.

[Silly Name]

I know this is pure headcanon, but I always suspected the Southern Pantheon has a Lawful slant to it, but that's mostly because we have seen more Azurite paladins than non-paladins and that colours my impression of them a bit.

There being a Neutral slant also makes sense, though, especially if the multiple Neutral gods act as bridges between the extremities of the alignment axis, allowing the Pantheon to function as a cohesive whole and ensure all worshippers are granted equal representation.

[faustin]

Could the Gods have chosen to strip Tsukiko from their patronage for cooperating with Team Evil and the goblins? I don't imagine any of them (even Rat) particularly happy about losing Azure City, and even less about the destroyed Gate.
Again I don't know the rules they must abide regarding clerics, much less their inner politics.

[Shadowknight12]

Could the Gods have chosen to strip Tsukiko from their patronage for cooperating with Team Evil and the goblins? I don't imagine any of them (even Rat) particularly happy about losing Azure City, and even less about the destroyed Gate.
Again I don't know the rules they must abide regarding clerics, much less their inner politics.

In 3.5e, clerics do have a paladin-like fall system:


Ex-Clerics

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

Presumably, because Tsukiko was still casting cleric spells just fine as a mystic theurge, she still retained her god's patronage despite siding with Xykon. Do keep in mind that Tsukiko officially joined them after the Gate had already been destroyed and Azure City had fallen. While she did betray Azure City almost immediately, her actions had no effect on the battle's results and, if anything, momentarily distracted both Xykon and Redcloak from pursuing their goals, giving the defenders a few extra seconds to evacuate (and the fact that she made herself a target of Redcloak's chlorine elemental and was forced to kill it may have inadvertently saved innocent lives down the line).

We don't really know how "on top of things" gods are in the OOTS world. Durkon complains that Thor "always ignores Communes" even though Durkon has been on a mission of world-important proportions for months, and we know that Hylgia has been praying to Loki to find Durkon for a very long time and despite her being a high-level cleric of him, he hasn't seen fit to keep her in the loop about anything, even though it would have actually been useful for the OOTS to have some clerical help to take vampire!Durkon down before he actually made it to the Godsmoot and deadlocked the vote.

So it's possible that whoever was giving Tsukiko clerical power just wasn't too on top of what she was actually doing.

[snowblizz]

We don't really know how "on top of things" gods are in the OOTS world. Durkon complains that Thor "always ignores Communes" even though Durkon has been on a mission of world-important proportions for months,
It's almost like there was a god-wide conspiracy to suppress information about certain rifts in reality.



So it's possible that whoever was giving Tsukiko clerical power just wasn't too on top of what she was actually doing.
I think we can basically chalk it up to the gods internal politicking means they are very hands-off lest they kick off new Snarls. I get the feeling stripping a cleric of their powers of the combined pantheon, will be a very politicky situation. And the 12 definitely seems to be working as one in such cases, that is you don't really pray individually to the 12. So it's simply quite hard to strip someone of their powers in such a system. You have to really be directly and specifically working against all the gods of the pantheon as a whole. And the Northern Gods show us fulyl half are prepared to let this world go. Say you want that new idea for a seacoast then letting some mortal push the rest closer to pulling the world's plug is a perfectly reasonable course of action. So you grant powers to the cleric.
Or have easy rules (not as in D&D rules) based mechanics for it such as the Paladin class. You don't have to discuss or argue whether a paladin did wrong.

And I think especially in the Snarl-rifts-gates blackout scenario the gods are more reluctant to start stepping on toes lest they draw more scrutiny on it.

[Shadowknight12]

It's almost like there was a god-wide conspiracy to suppress information about certain rifts in reality.

If that spell exists, it means it's allowed to be used. So why would you ignore one of your most important followers actually giving you a chance to help them out in a way the other gods can't bug you about? So far Roy's point about "I don't think the gods have our best interests in mind" seems to be a fairly accurate description of the gods as a whole.



I think we can basically chalk it up to the gods internal politicking means they are very hands-off lest they kick off new Snarls.

Snarls can't happen within gods of the same pantheon. The whole point of the snarl being extremely powerful and scary is that it was made of the disagreements of gods of different pantheons. If the 12 Gods all get into a big fight amongst each other, no Snarl happens because they all share the same quiddity.

EDIT: For further evidence of this, see the scene where Hel absolutely loses it against Loki, to the point where she visibly changes and later becomes almost transparent, and yet no snarl occurs.

[snowblizz]

If that spell exists, it means it's allowed to be used. So why would you ignore one of your most important followers actually giving you a chance to help them out in a way the other gods can't bug you about? So far Roy's point about "I don't think the gods have our best interests in mind" seems to be a fairly accurate description of the gods as a whole.
And no one is stopping the use. You can commune all you want but the gods aren't allowed to answer as per their agreement.
The whole point is there is a very complex set of rules surrounding what the gods are allowed to do that they have set up.
It takes Durkon talking to Thor when dead specifically mentioning the Snarl to be able to get direct information. And even though Thor is willing to spill on the flimsiest excuse now there's a glimmer of hope that doesn't mean he can just ignore the rules completely. Thor goes on at length about the issues, but that doesn't mean all the rules are known either.

I fail to see where anyone said the gods had peoples best interests in mind. Did I just not point out the god who cares more about the next coastline layout?



Snarls can't happen within gods of the same pantheon. The whole point of the snarl being extremely powerful and scary is that it was made of the disagreements of gods of different pantheons. If the 12 Gods all get into a big fight amongst each other, no Snarl happens because they all share the same quiddity.

EDIT: For further evidence of this, see the scene where Hel absolutely loses it against Loki, to the point where she visibly changes and later becomes almost transparent, and yet no snarl occurs.

A same colour snarl is not a problem as the (any) other god can will it away as easily. A two colour snarl is a big problem because it takes at least 2 pantheons to undo. A 3 colour snarl would be catastrophic and a four colour snarl is a cosmic level threat. But even inside pantheons we get conflicts that are covered by rules. Like the Godsmoot shows.

FWIW worth Rat is furious, it's not entirely clear if it is the destruction of Azure city or some of the 12 refusal to deal with the Dark One.

[Fyraltari]

We don't really know how "on top of things" gods are in the OOTS world. Durkon complains that Thor "always ignores Communes" even though Durkon has been on a mission of world-important proportions for months, and we know that Hylgia has been praying to Loki to find Durkon for a very long time and despite her being a high-level cleric of him, he hasn't seen fit to keep her in the loop about anything, even though it would have actually been useful for the OOTS to have some clerical help to take vampire!Durkon down before he actually made it to the Godsmoot and deadlocked the vote.
What makes you think Durkon has casted Commune since Azure City?
Also I don't see how Hilgya could have reached the Order before they got to the Dwarven Lands.

[Silly Name]

Commune has some pretty restrictive rules already, and uses some interesting language:


You contact your deity—or agents thereof —and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no.[...]The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity’s knowledge. “Unclear” is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient.

and


The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes.

Since Thor was bound by a divine pact (which, if I were to make a guess, is enforced through some more efficient rules than "I pinky swear"), he most likely couldn't have given an answer to Durkon's questions on the Gate even if he wanted to. If the commune was being answered by an angel (or similar creature in Thor's service), which is also possible, then the angel wouldn't have been able to provide useful information anyways.

[Shadowknight12]

And no one is stopping the use. You can commune all you want but the gods aren't allowed to answer as per their agreement.

I never said Thor had to say anything about the Snarl in the Commune. Thor could, however, still answer Durkon's Communes and respond about any other topic that wasn't the Snarl. Durkon's assertion that "you never answer those" states Thor never answers any Communes whatsoever.


A same colour snarl is not a problem as the (any) other god can will it away as easily.

The explanation given here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html) states "when the pantheons could not agree" not "when the gods could not agree". And as I mentioned in my previous post, this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1176.html) highly dramatic moment didn't create a snarl, not even one that needed to be willed or waved away easily. It just didn't happen.


What makes you think Durkon has casted Commune since Azure City?
Also I don't see how Hilgya could have reached the Order before they got to the Dwarven Lands.

It doesn't matter when's the last time Durkon has cast Commune when Thor should have picked up the phone and provided some form of guidance, however cryptic it has to be, since they blew up Dorukan's Gate?

[Fyraltari]

It doesn't matter when's the last time Durkon has cast Commune when Thor should have picked up the phone and provided some form of guidance, however cryptic it has to be, since they blew up Dorukan's Gate?
Well, yes it very much does matter, until Durkon was told about the Snarl by Shojo Durkon wasn't "Thor's most important Cleric". Durkon had been a Cleric of Thor for twenty years before Dorukan's Dungeon. That's plenty of time for Durkon to cast Commune and not get a response (because he couldn't be arsed or because he didn't want to interfere with thr plan he thought Odin had for Durkon or both) often enough for Durkon to conclude Commune isn't a reliable way to talk to Thor and not try it after he learnt of the Gates.

[Shadowknight12]

Well, yes it very much does matter, until Durkon was told about the Snarl by Shojo Durkon wasn't "Thor's most important Cleric". Durkon had been a Cleric of Thor for twenty years before Dorukan's Dungeon. That's plenty of time for Durkon to cast Commune and not get a response (because he couldn't be arsed or because he didn't want to interfere with thr plan he thought Odin had for Durkon or both) often enough for Durkon to conclude Commune isn't a reliable way to talk to Thor and not try it after he learnt of the Gates.

That still just furthers my original point of "he was one of the most important clerics Thor had and he still didn't pick up the Commune". Even if it was pre-Azure City, what else are you doing that's more important than keeping tabs on a cleric that was near the destruction of one of the Gates? What other clerics do you have that are commanding more attention than Durkon?

[dancrilis]

Thor should have picked up the phone and provided some form of guidance, however cryptic it has to be, since they blew up Dorukan's Gate?

He did - he sent a storm that allowed Miko to catch them unaware and kept Durkon out of the fight without which Miko might have lost and the OOTS might never have heard about the Snarl.


Well, yes it very much does matter, until Durkon was told about the Snarl by Shojo Durkon wasn't "Thor's most important Cleric". Durkon had been a Cleric of Thor for twenty years before Dorukan's Dungeon.

If you accept the general concensus about the starting levels of the order then Durkon would not have been able to cast the spell until after they started in the Dungeon (I don't accept that concensus but I am a bit of a contrarian).

[Silly Name]

Again, keep in mind that "Commune" can only give very limited information: usually, any answer is either "Yes", "No" or "Uncertain", and the questions themselves should be worded as yes/no question.

Even if Thor could have given Durkon unlimited information on the Gates, the Commune spell wouldn't have let him do that.

[Shadowknight12]

He did - he sent a storm that allowed Miko to catch them unaware and kept Durkon out of the fight without which Miko might have lost and the OOTS might never have heard about the Snarl.

That's not quite how the comic portrays it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html).


If you accept the general concensus about the starting levels of the order then Durkon would not have been able to cast the spell until after they started in the Dungeon (I don't accept that concensus but I am a bit of a contrarian).

Be that as it may, at some point Durkon was high enough level to cast it, either in the same dungeon as a Gate, or at some point it was destroyed.

EDIT:


Again, keep in mind that "Commune" can only give very limited information: usually, any answer is either "Yes", "No" or "Uncertain", and the questions themselves should be worded as yes/no question.

Even if Thor could have given Durkon unlimited information on the Gates, the Commune spell wouldn't have let him do that.

I'm not nitpicking Thor for not meeting an arbitrary quality of Commune responding. My point is that, as per Durkon, Thor doesn't answer any Communes whatsoever.

[dancrilis]

That's not quite how the comic portrays it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html).


Thor had a few balls to juggle.
1. The angels couldn't know he was doing something with the Snarl as they are not privy to that information.
2. He wanted Durkon to find out about the Snarl.

His storm did the second and his drink and blindfold did the first.

You asked for cryptic guidance to get Durkon on the right path - how much more cryptic should he have been?

[Shadowknight12]

Thor had a few balls to juggle.
1. The angels couldn't know he was doing something with the Snarl as they are not privy to that information.
2. He wanted Durkon to find out about the Snarl.

His storm did the second and his drink and blindfold did the first.

You asked for cryptic guidance to get Durkon on the right path - how much more cryptic should he have been?

That's not what I meant. I didn't say Thor should've done more active guidance outside of his followers' spells and class features, like the storm with Miko or the storm with the Mechane. I said he should've picked up the phone when a follower is calling, which is part of your job as a god. I'm not asking Thor to go above and beyond what he's supposed to do as a god. I'm saying he should've been doing what he's supposed to be doing, which is answering his clerics' Commune spells.

[Fyraltari]

That still just furthers my original point of "he was one of the most important clerics Thor had and he still didn't pick up the Commune". Even if it was pre-Azure City, what else are you doing that's more important than keeping tabs on a cleric that was near the destruction of one of the Gates?
Watching Team Evil, taking care of his mentally-challenged father, rescuing dwarven sould from Hel come to mind, fighting Surtr.
And that's just the thing we know he does. As a good god in a universe full of magic and monsters he probably has a lot on his plate.

And that's all still assuming Durkon casted Commune after reaching Dorukan's Gate which we have no reason to do.

[arimareiji]

That's not what I meant. I didn't say Thor should've done more active guidance outside of his followers' spells and class features, like the storm with Miko or the storm with the Mechane. I said he should've picked up the phone when a follower is calling, which is part of your job as a god. I'm not asking Thor to go above and beyond what he's supposed to do as a god. I'm saying he should've been doing what he's supposed to be doing, which is answering his clerics' Commune spells.

In case a link to the exact wording might be useful: Panel 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1148.html).

Thor: When you get the Dark One's cleric to agree, just cast Commune and I'll tell you what to do.
Durkon: Och, ye nev'r answer those!
Thor: Yeah, but I'll set a special ring tone for this.
I don't know of any specific occasions where Durkon* cast Commune, let alone what questions he asked, but he seems to have tried at least twice.
* - Iirc Durkula did, but that's a completely different mug of beer.

[Fyraltari]

In case a link to the exact wording might be useful: Panel 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1148.html).

I don't know of any specific occasions where Durkon* cast Commune, let alone what questions he asked, but he seems to have tried at least twice.
* - Iirc Durkula did, but that's a completely different mug of beer.

I'm gonna bet on stuff like "Why did High Priest Hurak exile me?"

[Silly Name]

Technically, communes can be answered by servants of the chosen deity (and I would expect most are). I now headcanon Durkon's line about complaining never getting to talk to Thor directly and having to always talk to the divine version of a very bored secretary.

[arimareiji]

I'm gonna bet on stuff like "Why did High Priest Hurak exile me?"
That particular question would be logical, and would fit pretty well with why he got no answer. Still, before the explanation arc we did get a pretty distinct impression of Thor as... well, let's say "hands-off management style".

(kidding) Uh-oh. I guess since we're back to "topics about which reasonable people can disagree, since interpretation is subjective and there's no absolute proof one way or another" we should just burn the topic to the ground and salt the fields. (^_~) (/kidding)


Technically, communes can be answered by servants of the chosen deity (and I would expect most are). I now headcanon Durkon's line about complaining never getting to talk to Thor directly and having to always talk to the divine version of a very bored secretary.
I'm stealing the mental image of Durkon rolling his eyes, for the next time I'm stuck on the real-world equivalent of ThorPrayer™. :smallbiggrin:

[Emberlily]

Something to consider about the southern pantheon is that Azurites are only a portion of their followers. The priests we see at the glimpse of the southern godsmoot seem very diverse, and Azure City's territory isn't even the largest country in the south.

War and XPs' did show us the character of the "High Priest of the Southern Gods" being Azurite, but that role seems to have been First among Equals from how the godsmoot has one distinct high priest for each southern god, each around a round table with no distinct hierarchy.

The southern gods were certainly very upset at the destruction of one of the most important cities of the south by people outside their religion. But someone who worships their pantheon taking part in an attack against a southern city, even their own, probably wouldn't be enough to strip a cleric of their power.

[JonahFalcon]

Commune only has three answers: "yes", "no", "answer unclear, come back later". And Thor and Odin aren't sure why Odin told him to kick Durkon out anyway.

[Peelee]

Commune only has three answers: "yes", "no", "answer unclear, come back later".

In RAW, yes. In Stickworld, apparently not.

[urbanwolf]

It could be that none of the 12 gds are good or evil. One could say that Pig is evil because pigs are greedy, and another could argue that pigs are smart so Pig is good. Rat could be the one dealing with the dark one because rat is the best at diplomacy.

The only time I remember one of the 12 gods talking was 8n the snarl crayon story and monkey added ninjas to the world because they are cool.

[JonahFalcon]

In RAW, yes. In Stickworld, apparently not.

You may notice Durkon isn't asking any questions.

[Peelee]

You may notice Durkon isn't asking any questions.

Spells explicitly allow things. Spells do not implicitly allow things that are not explicitly disallowed. Commune, in RAW, does not allow for "have an extended conversation with the target of the spell so long as you don't ask a question".

Further, even if we were to be incredibly magnanimous and assume that a spell does implicitly allow things not explicitly disallowed, Commune in RAW still does not allow for "have an extended conversation with the target of the spell so long as you don't ask a question", since if you do not ask a question - or even if you don't ask a question quickly enough - the spell fails.

So, again, Commune apparently does not work in Stickworld the way it does in RAW.

[Rrmcklin]

It could be that none of the 12 gds are good or evil. One could say that Pig is evil because pigs are greedy, and another could argue that pigs are smart so Pig is good. Rat could be the one dealing with the dark one because rat is the best at diplomacy.

The only time I remember one of the 12 gods talking was 8n the snarl crayon story and monkey added ninjas to the world because they are cool.

Arguing that Intelligence is specifically an attribute exclusively and most prominently aligned with Good people would be an inherently shaky premise.

You're correct we know basically nothing about them, but that's not a reason to assume they're all just completely neutral based off of nothing.

[arimareiji]

Arguing that Intelligence is specifically an attribute exclusively and most prominently aligned with Good people would be an inherently shaky premise.

You're correct we know basically nothing about them, but that's not a reason to assume they're all just completely neutral based off of nothing.
I agree, it'd be a bad idea to assert they're all Neutral when all we have are assumptions based on our personal biases (of which "cultural" is a subset).

I'd go farther and say it's just as bad of an idea to assert any given one is Neutral, Good, or Evil based on our biases. I'm not sure, but I got the feeling that might have been what urbanwolf was trying to express.

[JonahFalcon]

Spells explicitly allow things. Spells do not implicitly allow things that are not explicitly disallowed. Commune, in RAW, does not allow for "have an extended conversation with the target of the spell so long as you don't ask a question".

Irrelevant. The question wasn't about "why is it taking so long". It's "why didn't Thor answer Durkon's questions about why he was exiled?"

[Peelee]

Irrelevant. The question wasn't about "why is it taking so long". It's "why didn't Thor answer Durkon's questions about why he was exiled?"

Directly relevant to what I was quoting, which was "You may notice Durkon isn't asking any questions." As for the original question your statement is still apparently wrong, since it very much appears that RAW Commune is not how Stickworld Commune works.

If you want to solely focus on the original question, then making statements that refer to the current events instead of long past events is an odd choice. Also, the correct answer would be "Because Thor didn't answer the Commune", as Durkon himself told us.

[CountDVB]

Given how Tsukiko is, maybe she is a Ur-priest instead of a cleric? Would that fill the requirements to be a Mystic Theurge?

[MReav]

While we already had Word of the Giant, deity-less clerics are a thing. The Brotherhood of Stone is a group of such people. If I were to hazard a guess, if she didn't get her power from a deity/pantheon she'd probably worship Death and Knowledge.

[Squire Doodad]

While we already had Word of the Giant, deity-less clerics are a thing. The Brotherhood of Stone is a group of such people. If I were to hazard a guess, if she didn't get her power from a deity/pantheon she'd probably worship Death and Knowledge.

The Creed of Stone don't actually get their spells from "the earth", they actually get them from some incredibly old and powerful elementals who play the role a god would.

[Shadowknight12]

The Creed of Stone don't actually get their spells from "the earth", they actually get them from some incredibly old and powerful elementals who play the role a god would.

How do you know that's how it works in OOTS?

EDIT: We are specifically told that the Creed is non-theistic and has no deity (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html).

[Fyraltari]

How do you know that's how it works in OOTS?

EDIT: We are specifically told that the Creed is non-theistic and has no deity (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html).

Probably from there:


This is how I have always understood it (and keep in mind this is a basic D&D answer, and not a statement about OOTS per se):

On the most basic level, the substance of D&D multiverse is able to be shaped by personal belief. This is one of the main tenets of the Planescape setting, where planar locations shift around based on the moral leanings of the population. Most mortals don't have enough belief to really accomplish anything on their own, though, but the gods do. So mortals become clerics of a god, and their devotion to the god allows the god to funnel that belief-power back to them in the form of concrete magical effects. The gods aren't really the source of the power as much as they are the catalyst to convert it into something useful. They can tinker with the power in the process, by dictating spells or withholding power or what have you.

Non-theistic clerics get their spells from a wide distributed network of beings with similar philosophies who can act as catalysts for the cleric—but because these are not centralized, none of them can exercise "veto power" over the cleric, nor is the cleric required to acknowledge their dominance (or even their existence). In Gontor's case, it may be that a powerful Earth Elemental is granting him his spells, but it could be a different one each day, or even some spells from one and some from another. If any of those elementals decide they don't like what he's doing with his magic, he just gets his spells from someone else that day. He may even be entirely oblivious to which elemental provides his spells at any point, and therefore is under no obligation to any of them. Unfortunately, that also means that no single elemental is going to be invested enough in Gontor to care what happens to him.

Analogy time! Regular clerics have an employer-employee relationship, where the employer (god) consumes the work (prayer) that the employee (cleric) generates and in return provides them with compensation (spells), where that compensation is actually generated by the work being done by the entire company (church). A non-theistic cleric is more like a freelance writer; they perform the work (believe in a philosophy) that they feel is right for them, and then sell that work to whatever client (quasi-deific elemental beings) is willing to pay (provide spells) for it. The freelancer has more flexibility than the employee to do as they wish, but they also do not have many benefits of steady employment.

The same could work for Tsukiko just replace every mention of Earth with the appropriate element (Negative Energy?).

[Shadowknight12]

Probably from there:

The same could work for Tsukiko just replace every mention of Earth with the appropriate element (Negative Energy?).

Yeah that tracks, but the Giant does say that "this isn't a statement about OOTS per se" which leaves room for things to not be exactly the way he's describing here.

[Metastachydium]

Word of the Giant makes it abundantly clear that Tsukiko worshipped the Twelve (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?239187-Questions-on-the-OotS-religion&p=13053125#post13053125) (rather than some abstract concept or quintessential negative energy), though.

[Lacuna Caster]

I know this is pure headcanon, but I always suspected the Southern Pantheon has a Lawful slant to it, but that's mostly because we have seen more Azurite paladins than non-paladins and that colours my impression of them a bit.
In addition to Azurite society being loosely implied to be relatively conservative by OotSverse standards, I see major problems with a society of paladins knowingly worshipping one or more outright-evil deities. That's gonna trigger the 'no association' clause pretty bad.

[hamishspence]

One can offer prayers to an evil god without associating with that god - prayers of the 'please don't send any storms today' kind, for evil storm gods, for example.

That's how it works in the Forgotten Realms, for example - nearly everybody offers prayers to nearly every deity, and only a tiny proportion of the population never prays to any deity other than their "patron".

[Lacuna Caster]

One can offer prayers to an evil god without associating with that god - prayers of the 'please don't send any storms today' kind, for evil storm gods, for example.
"Habitually grovelling to evil" is even worse than "associating with evil" if you ask me, and I suspect a paladin would agree. Particularly the kind of a paladins who would broadly agree with this sentiment.

{scrubbed}

[hamishspence]

Not grovelling - simply showing respect, when the deity happens to govern something that the character is involved with.

In the Realms, even paladins will offer some small show of respect to the CE deity of the sea, Umberlee, when they're going to sea. A paladin who hunts pirates, for example.



And I'd speculate that in the OOTS-verse, even Azurite paladins offer some small show of respect to evil deities within their own pantheon, like Rat, when dealing with an issue that Rat has sovereignty over.


Also, this. The Twelve Gods are worshipped as a pantheon, by everyone, including evil characters like Kubota and Tsukiko.



Just as an Evil person can worship the whole pantheon including the good deities, so a Good person can worship the whole pantheon including the evil deities.

[Lacuna Caster]

Not grovelling - simply showing respect, when the deity happens to govern something that the character is involved with.
If you're begging the entity in question not to send storm and flood your way, you're grovelling. Doesn't matter how you dress it up. I really don't see how it would be much different from a paladin serving a council of nobles that were, say, 1/4 lawful evil, except it's worse, because you're actually getting spells from the pantheon. It doesn't square with no-association rules.


Just as an Evil person can worship the whole pantheon including the good deities...
I would question the logic of this as well.

[hamishspence]

It doesn't square with no-association rules.


No-association rules exist primarily to prevent paladins and evil-aligned characters from adventuring together.



They don't prevent paladins from "being in the same organisation as Evil-aligned characters" - plenty of LN churches have both paladins and Evil clerics. So, just "being in the same organization" does not count as associating. "Associating" in D&D, is extremely narrow, not wide.



"Paladins can't worship a pantheon that happens to include an evil deity" goes way beyond what's actually shown in-universe.




I would question the logic of this as well.

The Giant has stated that Tsukiko does worship the whole Azurite pantheon.

[Lacuna Caster]

No-association rules exist primarily to prevent paladins and evil-aligned characters from adventuring together.
Okay, hamish. Do you think Miko counts as "associating" with Lord Shojo? I can imagine paladins and LE clerics both working for the same non-evil deity (though I really question whether a lot of Undetectable Alignment spells aren't being employed there, given that paladins have a sacred duty to seek and smite the wicked.) It seems like the employee/employer relationship is closer than that.

The Giant has stated that Tsukiko does worship the whole Azurite pantheon.
Yes, which I would say creates distinct problems. Starting with why no-one, including folks like Thanh or Redcloak, ever asks "why are the Twelve letting her do this?"

[hamishspence]

The difference is that Shojo is regularly issuing Miko orders to follow.

By contrast, we're never shown that Rat is regularly issuing specific orders to individual members of the Sapphire Guard. He's just in the pantheon as a whole.


I really question whether a lot of Undetectable Alignment spells aren't being employed there, given that paladins have a sacred duty to seek and smite the wicked.)

To punish those who harm or threaten the innocent, specifically. But a paladin with a LN patron also has a "sacred duty to further the patron's agenda" - and killing the patron's LE clerics may end up interfering with the patron's agenda - so, such a paladin will be extremely cautious about how they handle LE clerics of the same deity.

[Lacuna Caster]

The difference is that Shojo is regularly issuing Miko orders to follow.

By contrast, we're never shown that Rat is regularly issuing specific orders to individual members of the Sapphire Guard. He's just in the pantheon as a whole.
If the author is going to make the analogy that the Twelve came down in person to fire Miko because of her screwups, I think he pretty much is implying a boss/employee relationship (although I think comparing Miko to a random cubicle-dweller is selling her pretty short.)


To punish those who harm or threaten the innocent, specifically. But a paladin with a LN patron also has a "sacred duty to further the patron's agenda" - and killing the patron's LE clerics may end up interfering with the patron's agenda - so, such a paladin will be extremely cautious about how they handle LE clerics of the same deity.
Yes, there are certainly no examples of religious organisations going to war over differing interpretations of the same holy text.

[woweedd]

I mean, remember: Most people worship the pantheon of Gods, not one specific God, even Clerics. You may have a specific patron deity you worship above the others (as Clerics usually do), but it's still a good idea to have a good word for all the Gods, lest you offend one of them. Think the old Greco-Roman pantheon: You worship the whole group, even if you have a specific patron. Of course, this varies: Some Gods, like St. Cuthbert and Heironius, are absolutely gonna get on your case for paying tribute to evil gods, some gods, like Lolth, are jealous gods who would get on you for so much as thinking of another deity, and Clerics and Paladins will definitely **** up the shrines of other gods to prove their patron's supremacy because being really super-into their specific god is kinda their thing, but, on the day-to-day, lots of people will pay tribute to Evil Gods just for the sake of ensuring those Evil Gods don't get pissy and send a plague of frogs to them. You may not like Hades, but, well, you're gonna have to face him one day, pay him proper respect. It seems like Tsukiko is functioning under a weird house rule where she worships the entire Pantheon, as a whole, rather then one specific member, which appears to be standard practice among Azure citizens. THere are rules for that, by the way: Short version, you get a lot more freedom. So long as your alignment is within worship range of ANY of the Pantheon's gods, you're in the clear.


If the author is going to make the analogy that the Twelve came down in person to fire Miko because of her screwups, I think he pretty much is implying a boss/employee relationship (although I think comparing Miko to a random cubicle-dweller is selling her pretty short.)


Yes, there are certainly no examples of religious organisations going to war over differing interpretations of the same holy text.
The analogy was the CEO of the multinational corporation. They're not HER boss, they're her boss's boss. She's aware of them, but they don't give the orders, and she'll only interact with them if she screws up in massive fashion. I would bet they don't even give Shojo direct orders, it's more like...If Shojo is the CEO of the Sapphire Guard, the Twelve Gods are the board of directors: They're the guys HE has to report back to.

[hamishspence]

Some Gods, like St. Cuthbert and Heironius, are absolutely gonna get on your case for paying tribute to evil gods, some gods, like Lolth, are jealous gods who would get on you for so much as thinking of another deity, and Clerics and Paladins will definitely **** up the shrines of other gods to prove their patron's supremacy because being really super-into their specific god is kinda their thing, but, on the day-to-day, lots of people will pay tribute to Evil Gods just for the sake of ensuring those Evil Gods don't get pissy and send a plague of frogs to them. You may not like Hades, but, well, you're gonna have to face him one day, pay him proper respect.

Or, as Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms puts it:


Folk in the Realms also pray and make offerings to deities other than their primary one. They often make these offers in the hope of appeasement, such as “We’ve got to cross the Neck in a boat, so Umberlee, please don’t sink us, and Talos, send no storms . .

It is not acceptable to treat any gods disrespectfully. Their worshippers and clergy can be resisted, yes, and sometimes, for followers of good-aligned deities opposed to human sacrifice, their altars can be shattered, too. However, the gods themselves are known to be very real, so while you are thwarting their mortal servants, it’s always best to not personally defame the god. Mocking their holy sayings is about as far as most folk dare go. For example, a man slaying a Stormsender (priest of Talos) in battle might snarl, “Send a storm— now reap a storm!”

Only clergy, paladins, and fanatics specialize in the worship of certain deities. Everyone else in the Realms is constantly poised between the gods, making offerings, participating in rituals, and seeking guidance as they see fit from among all of the gods, as the situations and necessities of their personal lives suggest is most appropriate.

I would go so far as to say that even paladins and clergy, despite their specialisation, will make occasional small prayers to other deities in the appropriate situation, as long as the other deities are not the paladin's deity's direct opponent.

So a paladin of Torm who goes pirate hunting may make the same "Umberlee, please don't sink us" little requests as everyone else.

[woweedd]

Or, as Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms puts it:


Folk in the Realms also pray and make offerings to deities other than their primary one. They often make these offers in the hope of appeasement, such as “We’ve got to cross the Neck in a boat, so Umberlee, please don’t sink us, and Talos, send no storms . .

It is not acceptable to treat any gods disrespectfully. Their worshippers and clergy can be resisted, yes, and sometimes, for followers of good-aligned deities opposed to human sacrifice, their altars can be shattered, too. However, the gods themselves are known to be very real, so while you are thwarting their mortal servants, it’s always best to not personally defame the god. Mocking their holy sayings is about as far as most folk dare go. For example, a man slaying a Stormsender (priest of Talos) in battle might snarl, “Send a storm— now reap a storm!”

Only clergy, paladins, and fanatics specialize in the worship of certain deities. Everyone else in the Realms is constantly poised between the gods, making offerings, participating in rituals, and seeking guidance as they see fit from among all of the gods, as the situations and necessities of their personal lives suggest is most appropriate.

I would go so far as to say that even paladins and clergy, despite their specialisation, will make occasional small prayers to other deities in the appropriate situation, as long as the other deities are not the paladin's deity's direct opponent.

So a paladin of Torm who goes pirate hunting may make the same "Umberlee, please don't sink us" little requests as everyone else.
True, although as I said, I think that might depend a little of the cleric and the god. Some Good gods are real hardasses who would get on your case for paying tribute to evil gods, and some evil gods are jealous types who will get on your case if you so much as THINK in another god's direction.

[RatElemental]

I remember running the numbers once and found that it was plausible for Tuskiko to have entered Ur-Priest in time to start taking Mystic Theuge levels, but it's all but confirmed by the giant she was a cleric of some stripe, possibly a cloistered cleric.

Given her scholarly bent, though, I'd say Archivist would fit her pretty well too.

[woweedd]

I remember running the numbers once and found that it was plausible for Tuskiko to have entered Ur-Priest in time to start taking Mystic Theuge levels, but it's all but confirmed by the giant she was a cleric of some stripe, possibly a cloistered cleric.

Given her scholarly bent, though, I'd say Archivist would fit her pretty well too.

It’d also fit with her seeming…Lacking in Wisdom.

[CountDVB]

It’d also fit with her seeming…Lacking in Wisdom.


I remember running the numbers once and found that it was plausible for Tuskiko to have entered Ur-Priest in time to start taking Mystic Theuge levels, but it's all but confirmed by the giant she was a cleric of some stripe, possibly a cloistered cleric.

Given her scholarly bent, though, I'd say Archivist would fit her pretty well too.

Yeah, she doesn’t display any antipathy toward the gods to fit being an Ur-Priest and her becoming an Archivist to learn divine magic in order to improve her necromantic capabilities along with showing off her willingness to learn esoteric secrets would make a good chunk of sense.

Might explain where she got her Wight spell from

[Precure]

Evil deities on Azurite pantheon explains how many of those alleged paladins were able to stay as paladins despite of their obvious evil tendencies and actions.

[KorvinStarmast]

Okay, hamish. Do you think Miko counts as "associating" with Lord Shojo? I can imagine paladins and LE clerics both working for the same non-evil deity (though I really question whether a lot of Undetectable Alignment spells aren't being employed there, given that paladins have a sacred duty to seek and smite the wicked.) It seems like the employee/employer relationship is closer than that. Wasn't he her uncle? That makes the relationship even more of a mess. (Nepotism for 500, Alex).

Starting with why no-one, including folks like Thanh or Redcloak, ever asks "why are the Twelve letting her do this?" If we consider the pantheon, The Twelve, as one unit with 12 voices / themes, we depart from a monotheistic theology/cosmology (which is where the D&D paladin concept originated, pre WoTC) and enter into deity by committee as a model.
The two models are not the same way of dealing with deity level beings.
Beyond that, The Twelve do not seem to be a polytheistic model like "Zeus, HMFIC, and his subordinate deities and his very strong willed wifedeity Hera".
The Twelve seem to be very much Deity By Committee. (And IIRC, the Seven in the Game of Thrones are also a deity by committee structure).

If the author is going to make the analogy that the Twelve came down in person to fire Miko because of her screwups, I think he pretty much is implying a boss/employee relationship (although I think comparing Miko to a random cubicle-dweller is selling her pretty short.) The Executive VP for Operations (Smiting) is not a cubicle dweller. Miko was the most powerful Azurite paladin at that point in the story, right? She's up there in the corporate hierarchy. :smallwink: (Not sure what her bonus plan was, but she did get her own room in the fortress).

Evil deities on Azurite pantheon explains how many of those alleged paladins were able to stay as paladins despite of their obvious evil tendencies and actions. Yes; if it serves us (The Twelve Collectively) it must be OK!

[Fyraltari]

Wasn't he her uncle? That makes the relationship even more of a mess. (Nepotism for 500, Alex).
Kinda. He took her in after she left the monastery (age unclear) and was the closest she had to a parental figure (to the point she nad Hinjo used to adress each other as "cousin") but they're not legally or biologically related.

"Zeus, HMFIC, and his subordinate deities and his very strong willed wifedeity Hera".
HMFIC?

The Twelve seem to be very much Deity By Committee. (And IIRC, the Seven in the Game of Thrones are also a deity by committee structure).
While the uneducated see the Seven as a pantheon, actual doctrine is that the Seven are just seven different faces of a One god. We even meet a Septon (Meribald, I think?) who splits the deity even further and prays to the Cobbler, an aspect of the Smith.

[Dion]

HMFIC?


Head MoFo In Charge, probably.

[hamishspence]

The Executive VP for Operations (Smiting) is not a cubicle dweller. Miko was the most powerful Azurite paladin at that point in the story, right? She's up there in the corporate hierarchy. :smallwink: (Not sure what her bonus plan was, but she did get her own room in the fortress).

But Azure City is only one nation on a big continent, and the Twelve are gods of the whole Southern continent, not just that city.

[KorvinStarmast]

But Azure City is only one nation on a big continent, and the Twelve are gods of the whole Southern continent, not just that city. Not sure what your point is. Their pantheon is the Twelve. Nowhere have I seen that Azure City was the domain of one of the Twelve. The Twelve is their cultural divine thing.

If I may digress into a bit of Homeric comparison here - in Athens, in Ithaca, and in Troy - all of them recognized the same pantheon. (Apollo, Zeus, Athena, etc).

Azure City being just one city on the continent doesn't matter, as I see it.

[hamishspence]

The point is that Miko being a senior Sapphire Guard figure, doesn't necessarily make her a senior figure on the continent as a whole, from the Twelve's point of view.

[Lacuna Caster]

The point is that Miko being a senior Sapphire Guard figure, doesn't necessarily make her a senior figure on the continent as a whole, from the Twelve's point of view.
I might come back and revisit this tomorrow, but in addition to being a fairly high-level agent of the Gods in general (how many level 14-16 persons are there per million?) Miko was explicitly the most powerful and highest-ranking paladin in a religious organisation concerned with defending against existential threats to the planet. As Korvin put it, the Executive VP for Operations (Smiting) really only has Shojo on the chain of command between her and the Gods (and to Miko's knowledge he was crazy.)

I mean, if OotSverse was a place where the Gods were distant and unfathomable or at least clueless and indifferent, it would be one thing, and in the early story it more-or-less looks that way. But if the Gods have any investment at all in what happens on the material plane, and certainly in the kind of universe where Durkon has a direct hotline to Thor, then Miko is totally justified in expecting the Board of Directors would have some kind of special plan for her. They'd have to be idiots not to.

[Peelee]

I might come back and revisit this tomorrow, but in addition to being a fairly high-level agent of the Gods in general (how many level 14-16 persons are there per million?) Miko was explicitly the most powerful and highest-ranking paladin in a religious organisation concerned with defending against existential threats to the planet. As Korvin put it, the Executive VP for Operations (Smiting) really only has Shojo on the chain of command between her and the Gods (and to Miko's knowledge he was crazy.)

I mean, if OotSverse was a place where the Gods were distant and unfathomable or at least clueless and indifferent, it would be one thing, and in the early story it more-or-less looks that way. But if the Gods have any investment at all in what happens on the material plane, and certainly in the kind of universe where Durkon has a direct hotline to Thor, then Miko is totally justified in expecting the Board of Directors would have some kind of special plan for her. They'd have to be idiots not to.

Why would they need a specific plan for her? Yes, she is involved with an existential threat against the planet. That sounds grandiose until it's revealed this is the umpteenth-billionth planet. They can make another one, like they did umpteen-billion times before. Sure, they may not really want to overall, but they're not seeing Miko as inherently special any more than any number of other umpteen-billion high-level characters who acted on behalf of their gods to try to save the world.

[Lacuna Caster]

Why would they need a specific plan for her? Yes, she is involved with an existential threat against the planet. That sounds grandiose until it's revealed this is the umpteenth-billionth planet...
I did stipulate if they have any investment at all, but the revelation you're referring to simultaneously covers that the Dark One's emergence is a unique one-in-a-billion once-off event and that the Gods have good reason to be quite invested in the outcome. (Not that Miko knows any of this, so her expecting some specific level of divine attention would be rational either way, or at least no crazier than anything else about the context of her introduction.) I'd expect them to have a plan for Miko the same way Hel and Thrym had specific plans for their own high-ranking mortal followers.

[Dion]

I in the kind of universe where Durkon has a direct hotline to Thor…

I don’t know… it seems more like the kind of universe where one of the most important events in the 10 billion year history of the multiverse is unfolding, and Thor’s reaction is little more than to give Durkon a hammer and tell him “Go figure it out.”

I don’t think any of the gods have what you or I would call a “plan”.

[Peelee]

I did stipulate if they have any investment at all, but the revelation you're referring to simultaneously covers that the Dark One's emergence is a unique one-in-a-billion once-off event and that the Gods have good reason to be quite invested in the outcome. (Not that Miko knows any of this, so her expecting some specific level of divine attention would be rational either way, or at least no crazier than anything else about the context of her introduction.) I'd expect them to have a plan for Miko the same way Hel and Thrym had specific plans for their own high-ranking mortal followers.

They do have an investment, but Miko overestimated it (and, as a consequence, her own importance) due to her not knowing the context. That's not her fault at all, but nobody needs to be at fault to still be wrong. Also, Thor is notably not in the Southern Pantheon, and is the single biggest proponent of trying to fix this thing with TDO's help. We don't know the Southern Pantheon's thoughts about it at all.

[RatElemental]

They do have an investment, but Miko overestimated it (and, as a consequence, her own importance) due to her not knowing the context. That's not her fault at all, but nobody needs to be at fault to still be wrong. Also, Thor is notably not in the Southern Pantheon, and is the single biggest proponent of trying to fix this thing with TDO's help. We don't know the Southern Pantheon's thoughts about it at all.

We do know that collectively they voted not to blow up the world (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html), but that's about it.

[KorvinStarmast]

I might come back and revisit this tomorrow, but in addition to being a fairly high-level agent of the Gods in general (how many level 14-16 persons are there per million?) Miko was explicitly the most powerful and highest-ranking paladin in a religious organisation concerned with defending against existential threats to the planet. As Korvin put it, the Executive VP for Operations (Smiting) really only has Shojo on the chain of command between her and the Gods (and to Miko's knowledge he was crazy.) As a modest point of comparison, in Utterly Dwarfed Thor tasks a high level adventurer (about the same level as Miko, plus or minus a few) with a mission that has an effect not only on the OoTS world, but has a potential impact on The OoTS Multiverse. Thor knows who Durkon is. I will estimate that at least a few of the Twelve, and possibly all of them, were aware of one of their most powerful followers. The question of how many adventurers > level 13 there are in OoTS world would be a useful contextual bit of info, so this leaves my supporting point as an estimate, at best.

They'd have to be idiots not to. The deities we've seen on screen have certainly shown some bizarre behavior, as compared to a sensible mortal, but perhaps eccentricity is a fundamental characteristic of a deity in OoTSverse. Unclear.

They do have an investment, but Miko overestimated it (and, as a consequence, her own importance) due to her not knowing the context. That's not her fault at all, but nobody needs to be at fault to still be wrong. I think her fault is the classic "sin of pride" and only hearing what she wanted to hear, disregarding the rest. That, and a Vitamin O deficiency, as diagnosed by Dr Greehnilt. :smalltongue:


We do know that collectively they voted not to blow up the world (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html), but that's about it. That at least points toward an investment in "let's keep trying to keep this world in one piece before we have to start over ... yet again"

[Precure]

The point is that Miko being a senior Sapphire Guard figure, doesn't necessarily make her a senior figure on the continent as a whole, from the Twelve's point of view.

Azurites were a big part of the continent though.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/oots/images/f/fa/Southern_Continent.png/revision/latest?cb=20180926133429

[hamishspence]

Looks to me like about 1/8 to 1/6 or so of the continent.

[Precure]

Looks to me like about 1/8 to 1/6 or so of the continent.

Looks and sounds big to me.

[KorvinStarmast]

Looks to me like about 1/8 to 1/6 or so of the continent. Care to take a peak at Australia? :smallbiggrin: (Yeah, I know, one of the bonus material things in the pdfs I have includes other countries on the continent)

[Fyraltari]

Now we just need to know what projection that map uses.

[Dion]

Now we just need to know what projection that map uses.

The Azure Special.

https://m.xkcd.com/2489/

[CountDVB]

Well, this topic veered off a bit.

I cannot say for Miko or for the Twelve Gods, but given how Rat was "furious" regarding what happened with Azure City, that should tell us something. While the scope and roles of the gods regarding their positions and so on, we can assume there is some stuff they all agree on, such as their own territory.

With Miko, I suspect that the gods were rather hands-off with her the same way her comrades were with her. It is implied she was of noble birth and after her parents were killed she was raised in a monastary. This likely meant her issues went unaddressed and her belief in a great fate was to reinforce a sense of order in her overturned world and not have anyone actually help with it, hence making the situation she's in. Her previous mentor obviously worsened matters in that regard.

Though going back to Tsukiko, let's go with what we do know, which on her. We know she was expelled from some magic academies and she has a heterodoxical attitude toward her society and well, toward life in general. According to the commentary in Blood Runs in the Family, Tsukiko is someone who has been hurt by a lot of people in the past, so her creation of undead who will do what she wants and say what she wants to hear is an unhealthy coping mechanism and shows how disassociated she is.

Have that with her attitude of being special and her previous behavior with dark arcane magical knowledge, I'd have to agree with @RatElemental's suggestion of her being an Archivist and thus the source of her divine spell usage to be able to be a Mystic Theurge.

It just fits well with her personality and her backstory. Heck, one of the class features is called Dark Knowledge, which sounds just like the sort of thing someone like Tsukiko would dig.