OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Giggling Ghast]

Awwww. That was sweet. :smallsmile:

[Tuhlore]

Wholesome character development before the amnesia.

[Ornithologist]

That's actualy just the kind of dawww moment I really needed to cap out the week.

Good times all around.

[Shale]

So Seirini is about to hit them with an amnesia attack, and they sit around reminiscing about how they've grown as people since strip 1....

...Elan is so getting stabbed before this is over, isn't he.

[RMS Oceanic]

So Seirini is about to hit them with an amnesia attack, and they sit around reminiscing about how they've grown as people since strip 1....

...Elan is so getting stabbed before this is over, isn't he.

It's not like she took her amnesia potion with her, it's still with the Paladins.

Odds of her dragging six people back successfully are not great.

[ziproot]

I guess Elan really thinks this is the climax.

[The4bestgame]

I really love the evolution of Elajn from making jokes about tropes, to knowing and exploiting them

[Vrock Bait]

That’s great, but why do I have the sneaking suspicion that we still have a book to fill and amnestic potions prepared to fill it?

[Dion]

Ouch! My feelings!

[Peelee]

Belkar apologizing unprompted? Ok, now I can start getting aboard the redemption train!

[Gift Jeraff]

Elan, "remember when" is the lowest form of conversation.

[dancrilis]

"I should've known"

I got chuckle.

Edit: Panel 2 would be when Durkon had to prepare spells - but Elan could be forgiven for forgetting that.

[Peelee]

Elan, "remember when" is the lowest form of conversation.

At least we didn't get a clip show.

[ziproot]

I got chuckle.

Leave it to Elan to blame himself for not metagaming (metabooking?).

EDIT: Also I just noticed Vaarsuvius levitating. They aren't trancing, so I guess they have fly now?

EDIT 2: Corrected pronouns

[MartectX]

Everything will be just fine. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

...what the hell is Haley holding?

[ziproot]

...what the hell is Haley holding?

The mouse head she used to temporarily disarm the trap.

[RMS Oceanic]

...what the hell is Haley holding?

She got it in a bonus strip last book, and used it to disarm the portal.

[Psyren]

Eww. Well, serves me right for not getting the last book yet.

[Peelee]

Eww. Well, serves me right for not getting the last book yet.

It's a pretty good book.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Oh no! They're reminiscing past adventures! At least one of them is going to die soon! You should have known Elan!

[Mon-Keigh]

Whelp Belkar just apologized, this must be the year

[Peelee]

Also I just noticed Vaarsuvius levitating. She isn't trancing, so I guess she has fly now?

They should all still be under the effects of the wand (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1218.html).

[ziproot]

Oh no! They're reminiscing past adventures! At least one of them is going to die soon! You should have known Elan!

It is the final battle between the Order and Team Evil, or is it?

:elan: Dun dun dun!

EDIT:

They should all still be under the effects of the wand (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1218.html).

Oh right, Haley's flying wand she got at Tinkertown. :smallsmile:

[Schroeswald]

Belkar apologizing unprompted? Ok, now I can start getting aboard the redemption train!

Welcome on board! It’s fun! Chooooo chooooo!

Also great strip, nice wholesome development, real funny, the whole package

[Ezekiel]

The mouse head she used to temporarily disarm the trap.

Technically I think it's an Osquip head...

[Good Coyote]

Just to get onboard the love train, this is my favorite strip of all time.

[dancrilis]

EDIT: Also I just noticed Vaarsuvius levitating. She isn't trancing, so I guess she has fly now?

She has been able to fly for a long time, panel 5 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html).

[ziproot]

Technically I think it's an Osquip head...

Oh right, Quippie. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Yeah, yeah, Vaarsuvius has fly, yada yada. I think she casted fly on herself in the frost giant battle too. I for some reason forgot she had it.

EDIT 2: Apparently it's spelled "Quippie", not "Quipple"

[Primeone]

This is the kind of page that is so different to read in a webcomic - where it's raising a lot of tension because we need to wait for the next page to see any resolution, compared to a book, where it's completely different pacing.

I doubt I'd be so tense reading this for the first time if I knew I'd be reading the next page immediately.

[Psepha]

Aww, that was sweet. Though I wonder what Durkon's casting...

[dancrilis]

Though I wonder what Durkon's casting...

Personal guess: Commune.

But I suppose a planar ally spell wouldn't go amiss (or something else).

[Edreyn]

I am terrified! When people talk like that, something horrible must happen soon!

[Pory]

Awww what a wholesome conversation...they are going to take a serious beating now, aren't they? :smallfrown: I hope Serini and Orange are listening invisibly to this and they hold back a bit.

[ziproot]

The calm before the storm. Elan sure knows his dramatic conventions.

[dancrilis]

...they are going to take a serious beating now, aren't they?

Possibly not - Belkar is frowning in the last panel, it is possible he has noticed something.

[Peelee]

Yeah, yeah, Vaarsuvius has fly, yada yada. I think she casted fly on herself in the frost giant battle too. I for some reason forgot she had it.

I suspect it was because V tried to barter for Z's houseruled 3.0 Fly, which might have morphed in memory as a simplified "V doesn't have Fly". I know when you asked about it, I assumed it was the wand because that's exactly what happened to me. At least until dancrilis pointed out they knew Fly already.

[Rrmcklin]

It seems many of you are taking it as a given that Serini (and whatever help) will just defeat the Order and take them back to the same place as the Paladins, but I'd bet more either on 1) them overcoming her or 2) Serini's actions themselves giving the trick away and thus endangering the Gate. But either way, something of consequence has to come from this and "things go smoothly for Serini" isn't that high up in the cards, to my mind. Possible, but certainly not a given.

[CountDVB]

Well, V, you still need to apologize for threatening to kill Elan back when you were in your trance-deprived state, but Elan doesn't you were doing that.

But the character development is so delicious!

And the genre savvy is a wonderful touch too. I wonder if this lack of awareness was what doomed the Scribblers XD

[TRH]

Elan, "remember when" is the lowest form of conversation.

He's in a hurry to get this character moment going before Xykon gets back, there's no time for an artful segue. You know, if artful segues were his thing to begin with.

[dancrilis]

I suspect it was because V tried to barter for Z's houseruled 3.0 Fly, which might have morphed in memory as a simplified "V doesn't have Fly". I know when you asked about it, I assumed it was the wand because that's exactly what happened to me. At least until dancrilis pointed out they knew Fly already.

There are a couple of panels that stick out to me in the comic - one set of them ends in 'I am still a dragon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)'.

So it was easy enough to remember that they could Fly, the Geekery topic just gave me a (presumed) first instance of it.


He's in a hurry to get this character moment going before Xykon gets back, there's no time for an artful segue. You know, if artful segues were his thing to begin with.

They are* - panel 3 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html).

*your milage may vary.

[ti'esar]

"I should've know, Roy. I should've known."

God, I love Elan.

[Kantaki]

Well, V, you still need to apologize for threatening to kill Elan back when you were in your trance-deprived state, but Elan doesn't you were doing that.

The advantage of not dumbing your threats down to the other guy's level.
Not that I think V could do that.

Or that Elan would've understood it either way.
”My teammate- friend - seriously threatens to murder me“ doesn't seem like something he'd get.

[The4bestgame]

I got chuckle.

Edit: Panel 2 would be when Durkon had to prepare spells - but Elan could be forgiven for forgetting that.

I believe its regarding to when V was turned into a lizard.

[dancrilis]

I believe its regarding to when V was turned into a lizard.

Yes is it - that is when Durkon needed to prepare spells to undo the 'being a lizard' problem.

[TRH]

It seems many of you are taking it as a given that Serini (and whatever help) will just defeat the Order and take them back to the same place as the Paladins, but I'd bet more either on 1) them overcoming her or 2) Serini's actions themselves giving the trick away and thus endangering the Gate. But either way, something of consequence has to come from this and "things go smoothly for Serini" isn't that high up in the cards, to my mind. Possible, but certainly not a given.

Unfortunately, the alternative to "things go smoothly for Serini" is "things don't immediately go FUBAR for the Order," and since when is that a winning bet?

[CountDVB]

The advantage of not dumbing your threats down to the other guy's level.
Not that I think V could do that.

Or that Elan would've understood it either way.
”My teammate- friend - seriously threatens to murder me“ doesn't seem like something he'd get.

True, but still... I wonder what V is thinking, given how they gotta deal with not having much of a life after all of this, trying to seek atonement. I suspect Elan would give them a touching speech.

I am wondering how Minrah will deal with all this

[Alexandrite]

The advantage of not dumbing your threats down to the other guy's level.
Not that I think V could do that.

Or that Elan would've understood it either way.
”My teammate- friend - seriously threatens to murder me“ doesn't seem like something he'd get.

I always thought maybe Elan did understand it, and was just doing his usual Elan thing to deflate V's threat. That would probably make him much smarter than he really is, but one can dream.

On a different note, I wonder if Durkon is channeling the planar ally he was going to summon back at Girard's gate. That would be fun to finally see, though with Serini about to make her move it might not pan out.

[Wraithfighter]

Possibly not - Belkar is frowning in the last panel, it is possible he has noticed something.

Odds are the thing he noticed was Elan going back to the (annoying to him) Narrative Theory Of Destiny stuff :D.

Also, I do like that the strip does call out Elan's early attitude. His antics were fun and silly for the audience, but there was also this theme of "being silly at the expense of people who understand how serious a situation it is", which is suuuuuuuper aggravating when you're trying to, you know, stop an evil monster and there's this annoying bard making themselves a pest, and then complaining when you voice your frustrations in a less-than-diplomatic way.

Particularly in an RP setting. Being the person playing a somewhat serious character and you've got this person that refuses to take things serious can reaaaaaaaally grate on things. Behind every stick-up-their-ass Paladin type, there's an insufferable comic relief character that provides no relief...

[understatement]

Aw, this is sweet. They're screwed.

It's the equivalent of "I'll meet you on the other side!" No, no you won't.

[JonahFalcon]

Rich just showing off continuity porn now.

[Goblin_Priest]

This is the kind of page that is so different to read in a webcomic - where it's raising a lot of tension because we need to wait for the next page to see any resolution, compared to a book, where it's completely different pacing.

I doubt I'd be so tense reading this for the first time if I knew I'd be reading the next page immediately.

I'd like it better in book format, though, because the pacing is already slow on webcomic, and pages like this, though they aren't, /feel/ like filler. I wasn't expecting another strip today, and thus the plot to move forward, but now that we got it, then it resets the timer and the time needed for the action to resume, or the lore to be elaborated upon, is all that much farther away.

Pages like these definitely have their place in the story, but I can't say I feel tension right now. Yea, the epic rogue is on her way, but while we could have learned something about the dungeon, or about Team Evil, or about anything else going on, instead we got a bunch of reminiscing. It showcases character growth, but that's mostly it.

[drazen]

Personal guess: Commune.

But I suppose a planar ally spell wouldn't go amiss (or something else).

I am also curious what he is casting. Looks like it takes time, and they may not have time.

[Blue Dragon]

Another brilliant piece, that confirms what I've been saying for a while, now:

• The Order of the Stick is one of the best comics in this century. Not one of the best webcomics, one of the best comics.
• You don't skip strips. Ever. You start at #1 and read until reach the end and start waiting for the next one, while reread it.

It's what I have been doing since 2005 or something, maybe before. I don't even know how much times and have been doing alone since 2010, when the only other person that accompanied it that I knew passed away.

Going like that, I don't see any character of the strip as "characters" anymore. For me, they are persons that I will miss dearly when their journey end.

Aside the help with my own (poorly) self-taught English, The Order of the Stick makes me feel feelings at the point of absurd, as when I did read one of the comics to a sweet, quite depressive ten years old girl to teach her something about good and bad days with great difficulty, because I couldn't stop crying. Terrible reader, I know.

I also used it to show my little artist how artists improve through the time and how consistent a style can remain and be good. She started learning English now and I hope (being a broken-a$$ guy who can't buy the cheapest pdf) to read online for her when she gets older, until she can read for herself and laugh and cry how I did.

Amazing work, Giant. Thank you so much.

If happen sometime that you are going around the hole I am stuck, you have a beer on me.

Godspeed!

[Quercus_Arbor]

Leave it to Elan to blame himself for not metagaming (metabooking?).

EDIT: Also I just noticed Vaarsuvius levitating. She isn't trancing, so I guess she has fly now?

[I]Fly[I] doesn't last long enough; more likely https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/overlandFlight.htm

[Robots]

Ah, new update. Nicey.

To be honest, we really have come a long way. Also, Belkar's (sort of) apologizing of his own accord! Man, the Belkar all those years back never would have done that. It really is a reflection of how far these silly little stickdudes have come. Also, Roy apologizing to Elan is sweet. :)

[TaiLiu]

Very glad this is getting addressed in-comic, even if only marginally. The party has tossed a lot of verbal abuse Elan's way.

[arimareiji]

Final Fantasy VII heart-to-heart just before the last boss, for the win. (^_~)


It seems many of you are taking it as a given that Serini (and whatever help) will just defeat the Order and take them back to the same place as the Paladins, but I'd bet more either on 1) them overcoming her or 2) Serini's actions themselves giving the trick away and thus endangering the Gate. But either way, something of consequence has to come from this and "things go smoothly for Serini" isn't that high up in the cards, to my mind. Possible, but certainly not a given.
It's entirely plausible I skimmed straight over (or even spaced) forward-looking speculation in the last thread, but I don't recall much of it happening. Without going back and reading the whole thread (oh please no), I don't remember anyone else elaborating on why Serini has to win (e.g. because otherwise the Order jumps out and shows Xykon exactly what's been concealing Serini's shell game), or mentioning it much at all. Mostly what I recall is people calling Serini an evil coward who wants Xykon to win, or saying Serini is making a logical decision given the limited set of facts she knows.

In this thread, I'm pretty sure Shale and Pory are the only ones asserted (before your post) that Serini will TPKO the Order.


The advantage of not dumbing your threats down to the other guy's level.
Not that I think V could do that.

Or that Elan would've understood it either way.
”My teammate- friend - seriously threatens to murder me“ doesn't seem like something he'd get.
"Is it just me, or is he actually more useful the LESS he understands what is going on?
"Och, aye. He has 'Ignorance' as a class power source." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0558.html)
(Plus I have other reasons for wanting to believe this, see footnote in reply below.)


Also, I do like that the strip does call out Elan's early attitude. His antics were fun and silly for the audience, but there was also this theme of "being silly at the expense of people who understand how serious a situation it is", which is suuuuuuuper aggravating when you're trying to, you know, stop an evil monster and there's this annoying bard making themselves a pest, and then complaining when you voice your frustrations in a less-than-diplomatic way.

Particularly in an RP setting. Being the person playing a somewhat serious character and you've got this person that refuses to take things serious can reaaaaaaaally grate on things. Behind every stick-up-their-ass Paladin type, there's an insufferable comic relief character that provides no relief...
I don't want to go within a mile of whether his discourse indicates he would say that his "Oopsie, I blew up the gate just to see what it would do" was just a silly little mistake anyone could make and don't make such a big deal out of it. Whether it's "right" or "wrong" or somewhere in between, I think that would go over really badly with Serini, and I don't want Shale's prediction to come true ("...Elan is so getting stabbed before this is over, isn't he.").

It might just be me, but there were a few times I thought early Elan was Sheldon-from-TBBT-level-aggravating (i.e. extremely thoughtless of others, but without malice*). One that stands out to me is the Elanicalicus incident (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html)... I thought Elan's mockery of wizards/V warranted an apology every bit as much, if not more, and was a bit puzzled that it seemed like V was treated as the only wrongdoer.
* - Or at least I really want to believe Elan's ignorant of what he's doing. What Elan does to coerce the goblin teenager (third row of panels in 101 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html)) almost seems like a prediction of what he does to V, just 26 strips later.

[gatemansgc]

and this is why i always check multiple times per day <3

elan definitely has grown as a character. dating haley probably helped!

[ziproot]

I suspect it was because V tried to barter for Z's houseruled 3.0 Fly, which might have morphed in memory as a simplified "V doesn't have Fly". I know when you asked about it, I assumed it was the wand because that's exactly what happened to me. At least until dancrilis pointed out they knew Fly already.

That's what I thought :smallsmile:

[arimareiji]

and this is why i always check multiple times per day <3

elan definitely has grown as a character. dating haley probably helped!
Indeed. Having something precious to lose does a lot to puncture youthful "lol y u so serious bro", and he took the opportunity. There are lots of good inflection points that can be pointed out for the stages of his growth, but the one that stands out to me is his comedy in 481 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0481.html) seguing into the seriousness of 482.

[dancrilis]

I thought Elan's mockery of wizards/V warranted an apology every bit as much, if not more, and was a bit puzzled that it seemed like V was treated as the only wrongdoer.


Elan did apologise panel 11 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html).

[Good Coyote]

Indeed. Having something precious to lose does a lot to puncture youthful "lol y u so serious bro", and he took the opportunity. There are lots of good inflection points that can be pointed out for the stages of his growth, but the one that stands out to me is his comedy in 481 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0481.html) seguing into the seriousness of 482.

I think this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0938.html) is a good one too.

He doesn't just differentiate himself against Tarquin, the way he defined himself against Nale as the Good twin. He also differentiates himself from Julio, the Neutral option, who is just okay.

Tarquin will actively hurt others to further his drama. Julio won't, but he still puts drama as more important than helping as much as he could. Elan decides even that feels weird.

[mjasghar]

Odds are the thing he noticed was Elan going back to the (annoying to him) Narrative Theory Of Destiny stuff :D.

Also, I do like that the strip does call out Elan's early attitude. His antics were fun and silly for the audience, but there was also this theme of "being silly at the expense of people who understand how serious a situation it is", which is suuuuuuuper aggravating when you're trying to, you know, stop an evil monster and there's this annoying bard making themselves a pest, and then complaining when you voice your frustrations in a less-than-diplomatic way.


The strip started out as a way to make fun of the way d&d is played and how edition changes are incorporated into ongoing games. This sort of fell by the wayside as the plot developed, usually being left to punchline end panels. Examples include talking is a free action or using the regeneration of a hydra to create a food business.
Elan was often the vehicle for this - even in the book where he takes centre stage he is used that way, what with the single splat book that covers a specific prestige class.
I wonder if this strip should be used as evidence he has increased his INT score?

[Ghosty]

It seems many of you are taking it as a given that Serini (and whatever help) will just defeat the Order and take them back to the same place as the Paladins, but I'd bet more either on 1) them overcoming her or 2) Serini's actions themselves giving the trick away and thus endangering the Gate. But either way, something of consequence has to come from this and "things go smoothly for Serini" isn't that high up in the cards, to my mind. Possible, but certainly not a given.

How bad would it look if the Order saw Serini trying to ambush them (through a True Seeing or the like), pivoted, and swatted her like a bug? The Order is expecting to maybe find her her, right? Though she's never responded? Would they recognize her if she was trying to put the Order in the ground, or incapacitate them similarly?

Or is this going to go like the initial Miko fight?

[Ghosty]

Unfortunately, the alternative to "things go smoothly for Serini" is "things don't immediately go FUBAR for the Order," and since when is that a winning bet?

They've got to get competent some time. I thought the fight with Greg* would've shown it---they planned! and everything---but, No. The initial ambush in Girard's Pyramid was pretty nifty too. If Serini doesn't thin the herd with traps, poison, guile and the like...and if the Order sees her coming, she could have a bad time.

Entirely possible the Order blasts her down to where all that's left is the Troll regeneration---especially if she comes out all shooty, and they see it---and how much'll remain of Serini after that, I couldn't tell you.

[ziproot]

If the Order subdues Serini, Serini will probably say something like "I have the Paladins" and try to work something out.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, one possibility is Elan jumping in the way to save Vaarsuvius as a reversal of the scene in Blood Runs in the Family (well, not exactly a reversal, but you know what I mean). Then Vaarsuvius casts Invisibility Purge and Durkon does some healing, then Serini mentions the Paladins and they talk.

[Doug Lampert]

Belkar apologizing unprompted? Ok, now I can start getting aboard the redemption train!

Wait, where are all the Kenny Belkar is about to die predictions?
After all, Redemption=Death (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath).


Oh no! They're reminiscing past adventures! At least one of them is going to die soon! You should have known Elan!

There's also this.


I am terrified! When people talk like that, something horrible must happen soon!

And this.

I just don't understand it, on about 1% of this evidence we used to reliably have dozens of people saying "Belkar dies here doesn't he." And this time we're actually beginning to get kind of close to the climax where it's actually plausible.

The forum has let me down.

So, how does Haley's being a half-celestial play into Serini's ambush?

[Good Coyote]

Entirely possible the Order blasts her down to where all that's left is the Troll regeneration---especially if she comes out all shooty, and they see it---and how much'll remain of Serini after that, I couldn't tell you.

No opinion on whether this is likely but...

It'd be pretty darn cool to see.



So, how does Haley's being a half-celestial play into Serini's ambush?

I'm more interested in whether V's half-camel template raises the required dose for their body size (because it's diluted by all the water in the hump).

[ziproot]

Or, what if Mr. Scruffy notices Serini? That would be fun to watch.

[Ghosty]

If the Order subdues Serini, Serini will probably say something like "I have the Paladins" and try to work something out.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, one possibility is Elan jumping in the way to save Vaarsuvius as a reversal of the scene in Blood Runs in the Family (well, not exactly a reversal, but you know what I mean). Then Vaarsuvius casts Invisibility Purge and Durkon does some healing, then Serini mentions the Paladins and they talk.

I am really, I mean really interested in how Serini parses dealing with the entity that smoked her former crush's entire bloodline. I seriously doubt that happens with a shrug.

[bunsen_h]

Or, what if Mr. Scruffy notices Serini? That would be fun to watch.

People who use invisibility and such rarely remember to nullify their scents.

[wingnutx]

Belkar apologized! wow.

[Ghosty]

Wait, where are all the Kenny Belkar is about to die predictions?
After all, Redemption=Death (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath)....

I know I had to have mentioned this here before, but at another place I discuss this strip, someone stated that the Giant is likely to subvert this trope of fantasy prophecy...by following it exactly. No it's, but's, exits. Belkar will die before the New Year, and he will do it towards the very, very end of this entire tale.

Though I can't see how he earns the CG-ish afterlife fantasy with Shojo I'd love to see him get. He's trying to be better now, true; but he hasn't even come close to atoning for all of the people he hurt before Roy and Shojo got ahold of him. (Thats's a lot of kiloNazis.) And he now seems like a better person than Limbo deserves. What final destination for those that wanted to change, but just ran out of Time?

Maybe that's another deconstruction from the Giant?

[ziproot]

It might just be me being Lawful, but I think that Mechanus is a much better place to end up on than Limbo, even though they are both the "neutral" afterlife.

[Jay R]

So, how does Haley's being a half-celestial play into Serini's ambush?

I don't want to give any spoilers, but once you figure out the MitD's species, and Vaarsuvius's gender, it all becomes perfectly clear. That's also why the wooden alpaca had to be filled with potato salad.

[KorvinStarmast]

...Elan is so getting stabbed before this is over, isn't he. He's been getting stabbed since early in OoTS (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0006.html) (Haley had to steal a healing pot from Belkar (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html)to overcome his wounds from goblins ninjas) - he's been stabbed plenty since then. (A major one from Nale and another major one from Tarquin). He's still here (with perhaps an assist from plot armor ...) so him getting stabbed will be fine.
It won't be final, however.

Well, V, you still need to apologize for threatening to kill Elan back when you were in your trance-deprived state I don't see why. Durkon and Elan were running off on side quests while V was still focused on the Order's mission.
... there was also this theme of "being silly at the expense of people who understand how serious a situation it is", which is suuuuuuuper aggravating when you're trying to, you know, stop an evil monster

Particularly in an RP setting. Being the person playing a somewhat serious character and you've got this person that refuses to take things serious can reaaaaaaaally grate on things. Behind every stick-up-their-ass Paladin type, there's an insufferable comic relief character that provides no relief... True.

I'd like it better in book format, though, because the pacing is already slow on webcomic, and pages like this, though they aren't, /feel/ like filler. I had a similar reaction. The pacing will 'feel' better when the book is published. My gut reaction was "filler" and "scene change pivot point" conjoined.

elan definitely has grown as a character. dating haley probably helped! Hasn't hurt.

Though I can't see how he earns the CG-ish afterlife fantasy with Shojo I'd love to see him get. I have the idea that Belkar will get the afterlife he deserves. That end was foreshadowed by the interview the deva had with Roy. Not betting on anything in the CG realm: body of work, and all that.

[Roselily2006]

I don't see why. Durkon and Elan were running of on side quests while V was still focused on the Order's mission.
I dunno, threatening murder on a fellow party member still seems a bit extreme.

[arimareiji]

Elan did apologise panel 11 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html).
Indeed, but it felt half-hearted... and although it may be just another of Elan's many bad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0004.html) (panel 6) wording (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html) (panel 5) choices (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html) (panel 6), he phrases it as "I'm sorry you took offense at my wizard costume".

I can believe Elan didn't intend it this way*, but generally "I'm sorry [about your actions**, not mine]" can be fairly called a fauxpology or nonpology. Especially when the person minimizes any mention of their own role ("my wizard costume", as opposed to mockery of wizards/V).
* - I really do personally prefer to attribute his actions to gaucherie rather than ill intent, despite things like him threatening the goblin teenager in 101 with what he actually did here. Hanlon's Law does my stress levels a lot of good, when I remember it. (^_~)
** - Particularly when "your actions" are "thinking that what I did was offensive".

I think this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0938.html) is a good one too.

He doesn't just differentiate himself against Tarquin, the way he defined himself against Nale as the Good twin. He also differentiates himself from Julio, the Neutral option, who is just okay.

Tarquin will actively hurt others to further his drama. Julio won't, but he still puts drama as more important than helping as much as he could. Elan decides even that feels weird.
Indeed. What stood out to me about the one I linked is that I think it's a good start point for "reflecting on his actions" (and how they affect others, and why others have a right to object to them), not just "saying sorry when people get mad" (without understanding why they had a right to be).

The strip started out as a way to make fun of the way d&d is played and how edition changes are incorporated into ongoing games. This sort of fell by the wayside as the plot developed, usually being left to punchline end panels. Examples include talking is a free action or using the regeneration of a hydra to create a food business.
Elan was often the vehicle for this - even in the book where he takes centre stage he is used that way, what with the single splat book that covers a specific prestige class.
I wonder if this strip should be used as evidence he has increased his INT score?
Really good point, to the extent that I wonder how fair it is to consider extremely-early Elan to be the same character at all.

They've got to get competent some time. I thought the fight with Greg* would've shown it---they planned! and everything---but, No. The initial ambush in Girard's Pyramid was pretty nifty too. If Serini doesn't thin the herd with traps, poison, guile and the like...and if the Order sees her coming, she could have a bad time.

Entirely possible the Order blasts her down to where all that's left is the Troll regeneration---especially if she comes out all shooty, and they see it---and how much'll remain of Serini after that, I couldn't tell you.
The trouble is, what if they don't have to get more competent this time?

They're currently planning to jump out of a portal for a winner-takes-all ambush, which underpins what appears to be Serini's reasoning: The definition of insanity is trying the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. It's a great idea IF they win. But they keep on losing, and gates keep getting destroyed, and if that happens here the world is unmade.

If she's right and their ill-considered ambush fails, it's game over AND they've practically announced to Team Evil "It's just Serini's shell game (428, panel 9 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)) to think you can pick the right door. Start looking behind the portals."

[InvisibleBison]

Unfortunately, the alternative to "things go smoothly for Serini" is "things don't immediately go FUBAR for the Order," and since when is that a winning bet?

It's quite possible for things to go badly for both parties, especially given that Team Evil could show up at any moment.

[ebarde]

Elan doesn't seem to be necessarily smarter, as much as just more aware of the world around him. He even says here that he was just goofing off at first.

[GreatWyrmGold]

This sort of low-stakes breather episode is underrated.

[TRH]

They've got to get competent some time. I thought the fight with Greg* would've shown it---they planned! and everything---but, No. The initial ambush in Girard's Pyramid was pretty nifty too. If Serini doesn't thin the herd with traps, poison, guile and the like...and if the Order sees her coming, she could have a bad time.

Entirely possible the Order blasts her down to where all that's left is the Troll regeneration---especially if she comes out all shooty, and they see it---and how much'll remain of Serini after that, I couldn't tell you.

They'll never get competent if there's more story possibilities that stem from their failure. Serini just made the case that they're not up to the task of defeating Xykon, and cites as evidence how easily she defeated the two paladins. Her losing to the Order would weaken her argument, albeit not entirely refute it. Still, she's shaping up to be a major antagonist, at least for the first segment of the book - why on Earth would her unique perspective on the Gate struggle be undercut this early? And on a more micro level, why would we have trot out this amnesia potion without it being a major hinderance? No, she's absolutely going to get away with it. I'm betting all the quatloos on this.

Literally the only reservation I have is that we've just done the long-winded monologue to captive scene, so doing it again with the Order would be a bit awkward, and they need to hear the speech more than the paladins, so it can't exactly be skipped. But on the other hand, they'd forget it anyways, so maybe it's not so valuable that they hear it so long as we have.


It's quite possible for things to go badly for both parties, especially given that Team Evil could show up at any moment.

That's just a moderately more convoluted variation on what we'd have gotten if everyone had fought in the canyon after Durkon's negotiations failed. As the characters pointed out at the time, it's premature for that. And if it were another inconclusive skirmish, we just had that battle.

[arimareiji]

I just don't understand it, on about 1% of this evidence we used to reliably have dozens of people saying "Belkar dies here doesn't he." And this time we're actually beginning to get kind of close to the climax where it's actually plausible.

The forum has let me down.

Okay, I'll do my best to provide at least some sort of wild speculation... namely: Speculation is like a desert plant, and evidence like water. With only tiny amounts of evidence, speculation thrives. With levels of evidence that would make most plants happy as a lark, speculation drowns.
If everyone's speculation is obviously wild, there's little investment in being Right No Matter What. But if someone can lay out even a P=0.5 QED, then that means my pet theory might be Wrong and that can't be true. By the time you get to P=0.1, the only response to it may be "I reject your evidence and substitute my own fanon." (⌣_⌣)

I don't want to give any spoilers, but once you figure out the MitD's species, and Vaarsuvius's gender, it all becomes perfectly clear. That's also why the wooden alpaca had to be filled with potato salad.
Evil. Much better speculation than mine. (^_^)b

Well, V, you still need to apologize for threatening to kill Elan back when you were in your trance-deprived state, but Elan doesn't you were doing that.

I don't see why. Durkon and Elan were running off on side quests while V was still focused on the Order's mission.
Huuuuhhhhh. :-/
I was planning to reply to the first post with mostly-agreement*, but now it feels considerably more cloudy. Although to be fair... V's obsession with contacting Haley and Belkar was beginning to feel like a side-quest as well, because "fulfilling the mission" was starting to fall behind the motivations that V: 1) couldn't bear to be thwarted 2) was letting PTSD and false guilt make the decisions.
* - Mostly because YMMV on how serious the threat was (it was in response to an equally-unfulfilled** threat to report V to Hinjo for murder). There have been a number of implied or explicit death threats over the course of the strip that haven't been carried out despite ample opportunities. (But then again V had just killed Kubota for flimsy reasons, even if they were mostly a lampshading of campaign expediencies.)
** - Although in rereading, I realize Elan repeated (but never fulfilled) the threat as part of indirectly telling V "Good riddance" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html), without letting on either of these things to a very-confused Durkon. Which somewhat undercuts my cherished assumption of "When Elan apparently screws up, it's always because he's too dumb to know any better". (﹒︠₋﹒︡)

[Peelee]

People who use invisibility and such rarely remember to nullify their scents.

Seeing as she's a halfling, she probably did remember.

[arimareiji]

Seeing as she's a halfling, she probably did remember.
I wish I knew/remembered more about the origins of fantasy tropes. I love the notion of halflings as having hamster senses in addition to the hamster personality traits Tolkien gave them*... but is sensitivity to smells from tradition, or a recent development?

* - my own interpretation of both matters

[Peelee]

I wish I knew/remembered more about the origins of fantasy tropes. I love the notion of halflings as having hamster senses in addition to the hamster personality traits Tolkien gave them*... but is sensitivity to smells from tradition, or a recent development?

* - my own interpretation of both matters

No clue, I'm just basing it on Belkar's abilities.

[arimareiji]

No clue, I'm just basing it on Belkar's abilities.
I got curious enough to start googling, and found several references that seem to indicate others have described halflings in general as having a keen sense of smell.

But because Google is Google, I'm having to sift through results pointing me to candles, perfume, and whatnot that I can buy that someone thinks smells like halflings. I'm sorta surprised I haven't tripped across anyone selling halfling-scented pipeweed yet. :smalleek: XD

Edit: I finally got my wish, though not in the form I expected... apparently some people don't think pipeweed is tobacco, which I'll take as an omen to give up for the night. (But first I found links to buy mincemeat pies, potpourri, and all sorts of things to make your hobbit-hole smell more pleasant. And every now and again, something about Smaug having a great sense of smell, people wondering what elves smell like, etc.)

[Patterned_Pike]

It has occurred to me that Elan still doesn't know Roy basically abandoned him to the bandits before having a change of heart. I wonder if this conversation (assuming there's more than one page of this dialogue before Serini attacks) will lead to that coming out.

[brionl]

...what the hell is Haley holding?

Mummified Osquip Head.
Which, incidentally, would be a great name for a band.

[danielxcutter]

Mummified Osquip Head.
Which, incidentally, would be a great name for a band.

So was "Sonic Reptillian Unicorn" :smalltongue:

[Xlsfd]

I like the references to past strips here:

Panel 4:
Strip 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0004.html) (Bluffing Ogre, Roy telling Elan he hated him)
Strip 127 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html) (V yelling at Elan)
Strip 124 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html) (Belkar trying to kill Elan for XP)

Panel 7:
Strip 128 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html) (V apologizing to Elan)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I love that beat in panel 5. I enjoy the Order reflecting on how much they've changed and certainly Elan is one of the more changed elements. But the strip also highlights Roy's continual efforts to be a better leader and also! a little bit of introspection (maybe?) from Belkar.

Now, when does Serini appear?

[Thermophille]

I love that beat in panel 5. I enjoy the Order reflecting on how much they've changed and certainly Elan is one of the more changed elements. But the strip also highlights Roy's continual efforts to be a better leader and also! a little bit of introspection (maybe?) from Belkar.

Now, when does Serini appear?

Probably next strip. In addition to character development, the reason for this scene is to make sure we know what's going on with the Order before they get jumped.

We'll probably have a few rounds of combat with Serini, they'll use newly-found teamwork for an unlikely victory, and then we'll get a few strips of them talking to Serini and trying to convince her to let them help.

Just a guess.

[Fyraltari]

Belkar apologized (relatively) unprompted?
This is the end of the world!

[PattThe]

Whelp Belkar just apologized, this must be the year
What was the most in-fashion form of awakened undead in the 3.5 era? In 5e we throw around revenants left and right. What if the "belkar will die" is followed up with extraplanar nonsense with his soul? We already did the Undead Monster PC (twice, counting a certain golem) so maybe Belkar still gets sent to an evil realm, and thinks of himself as better than the unrepentent spirits and becomes a badass lordly petitioner or fiend.
That said, I wonder how Roy's Dad and Belkar would get along in that barrier realm.

...Now I'm wondering if a certain feline companion is going to die with/before/after Belkar.. If they both passed, they'd be set forever in peace.

[Ragnarok'n'Roll]

Everyone getting along and apologizing ? Uh-oh, heading into the last fight, sounds like Elan is going to die.

[Shining Wrath]

I'd say "Elan, never change", but that would refute the whole point of the strip, which is how they've all changed. Which was their inevitable destiny as a rag-tag group of heroes discover they need to save the world.

[elros]

She got it in a bonus strip last book, and used it to disarm the portal.
Can someone give a brief description of how she got the mouse skull? That's not exactly an item highly coveted by a thief!

As for the comic, it is satisfying to see the character growth, and I think it is relevant that the group is talking about their problems, instead of having "anger and resentment that had simmered through the years of adventuring (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)." Because the Order of the Scribble fell apart because of that anger and resentment, I think that seeing everyone get along will convince Serini that she should work with OOTS instead of taking them captive.

[dancrilis]

Can someone give a brief description of how she got the mouse skull?


To memory it was a dwarfs pet that died and he kept it, when he died it was handed down.

This lead to dwarves getting it despite them not really wanting a rotting rodent head but unable to get rid of it unless there was an honourable method, and so they started passing it around whenever honour would permit - the dwarf who had it before Haley honoured her commitment in the conflict with the vampires with this heirloom.

Thus the world was saved.

[mjasghar]

It might just be me being Lawful, but I think that Mechanus is a much better place to end up on than Limbo, even though they are both the "neutral" afterlife.

The closest to a neutral afterlife is the outlands
Limbo and Mechanus are pure Chaos and pure Law.

[Riftwolf]

What's Durkon casting? Is there a spell with a long casting time (like Sending) that you can hold like that till you need it?

[danielxcutter]

What's Durkon casting? Is there a spell with a long casting time (like Sending) that you can hold like that till you need it?

Nnnnnnno, spells don't really work like that.

Maybe he's summoning a Greater Planar Ally? I think he might be high enough level to summon a Planetar or Trumpet Archon with that spell. Trumpet Archons cast as 14th-level Clerics; Planetars as 17th-level. This works because both have considerably lower HD than that.

[Anitar]

Elan did apologise panel 11 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html).

"I'm sorry you took offense" is not an apology at all.

[arimareiji]

"I'm sorry you took offense" is not an apology at all.
Thank you for making this point well. (^_^)b
(I tried to, but drowned it in explanations and qualifiers e.g. "but I want to think he intended to apologize".)

[dancrilis]

"I'm sorry you took offense" is not an apology at all.

I disagree - apologies are about the individuals involved Elan seems to have meant it as an apology and Vaarsuvius seems to have taken it as an apology.

[Wraithfighter]

I disagree - apologies are about the individuals involved Elan seems to have meant it as an apology and Vaarsuvius seems to have taken it as an apology.

I mean, I'm willing to accept the poor phrasing as just early writing fumbles, I do think Elan was sincere (if only because early Elan had nary an insincere bone in his body). It is worth noting the number of times that "I'm sorry you were offended" has been used by SOBs to make an entirely insincere apology, as there's a drive into deep left field by Castellanos and that'll be a home run. And so that'll make it a 4-0 ballgame, and we need to make teach people why apologies like that need to be sincere and not weaselly.

[Peelee]

I disagree - apologies are about the individuals involved Elan seems to have meant it as an apology and Vaarsuvius seems to have taken it as an apology.
I agree.

I mean, I'm willing to accept the poor phrasing as just early writing fumbles, I do think Elan was sincere (if only because early Elan had nary an insincere bone in his body). It is worth noting the number of times that "I'm sorry you were offended" has been used by SOBs to make an entirely insincere apology, as there's a drive into deep left field by Castellanos and that'll be a home run. And so that'll make it a 4-0 ballgame, and we need to make teach people why apologies like that need to be sincere and not weaselly.
I agree.

[bunsen_h]

Edit: I finally got my wish, though not in the form I expected... apparently some people don't think pipeweed is tobacco, which I'll take as an omen to give up for the night.

This is partly because LotR is purportedly European "before-times" but tobacco is a New-World plant. The same problem applies to the potatoes that Sam was so fond of.

And partly wishful thinking that the hobbits and wizards were stoned all the time.

[Peelee]

This is partly because LotR is purportedly European "before-times" but tobacco is a New-World plant. The same problem applies to the potatoes that Sam was so fond of.

Imean, once you introduce wizards and dragons into the mix, it seems a bit of an odd issue to take. "All European versions died out because why not" is a perfectly valid plug into those peoples' alleged hole.

[danielxcutter]

Also if it's not literally Earth then I don't think it's that much of a problem.

[Good Coyote]

My preferred explanation is that dragons can fly, and since they appear in wideranging world mythologies (sort of), they clearly get around. Seeds could travel in the mud on a dragon's talons.

This opens interesting story avenues about invasive species of plants, and what impact that has on the local flora and fauna.

Can't wait for someone to get around to making a full TV show Samwise Gamgee prequel where he deals with these issues as a gardener.

[Fyraltari]

This is partly because LotR is purportedly European "before-times" but tobacco is a New-World plant. The same problem applies to the potatoes that Sam was so fond of.

And partly wishful thinking that the hobbits and wizards were stoned all the time.
One of the books (Unfinished Tales most likely) has a description of Nùmenorean fruits that sound suspiciously like tomatoes too.

Imean, once you introduce wizards and dragons into the mix, it seems a bit of an odd issue to take. "All European versions died out because why not" is a perfectly valid plug into those peoples' alleged hole.
It's not like the Professor included a note in the book explaining that the pipe-weed is definitely tobacco brought from the True West, is it? Yes, it is.
Also, there are Dùnedain ships circumnavigating the world in the Silmarillion.

Also if it's not literally Earth then I don't think it's that much of a problem.
It is, though Arda (German: Erde, English: Earth) is literally supposed to be our planet in the long long ago. This whole thing was conceived as a British mythology, remember.

[danielxcutter]

It is, though Arda (German: Erde, English: Earth) is literally supposed to be our planet in the long long ago. This whole thing was conceived as a British mythology, remember.

How long ago are we talking about? Long enough to invent french fries?

[dancrilis]

How long ago are we talking about? Long enough to invent french fries?

I think it is meant to be like Star Wars except instead of 'in a galaxy far far away' it is more 'before magic died and the world transformed'.

But I could be wrong it has been a long time since I read any of them.

[Fyraltari]

How long ago are we talking about? Long enough to invent french fries?

And then to forget about them, I guess.

[danielxcutter]

And then to forget about them, I guess.

And then for someone to come up with the exact same story and then have it made into a movie then.

It's the Circle of Life~

[Blatt]

Anticlimax coming...

[danielxcutter]

Anticlimax coming...

I mean the Serini fight isn't exactly the climax anyways.

[Fyraltari]

Anticlimax coming...

That's an oxymoron.
HEYYYYYYY!

[Good Coyote]

I mean the Serini fight isn't exactly the climax anyways.

The Xykon fight would be. Since they're getting the Serini fight instead... anticlimax.

(By their perspective, not ours. They're expecting a Xykon fight, we don't seem to be anymore.)

[bunsen_h]

One of the books (Unfinished Tales most likely) has a description of Nùmenorean fruits that sound suspiciously like tomatoes too.

Apparently (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/faq/newworld.php) the first edition of The Hobbit mentions tomatoes explicitly, but that was changed for later editions.

[danielxcutter]

That's an oxymoron.
HEYYYYYYY!

...Can somebody explain the joke?

[Riftwolf]

...Can somebody explain the joke?

Oxymoron is an insult for minotaurs.

[arimareiji]

...Can somebody explain the joke?
Maybe Serini is Auntie Climax?

[Fyraltari]

...Can somebody explain the joke?
"The climax" and "to come" are both ways to refer to an orgasm, so "anticlimax coming" is a contradiction.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Windscion]

...Now I'm wondering if a certain feline companion is going to die with/before/after Belkar.. If they both passed, they'd be set forever in peace.
I've always assumed that Belkar's death comes about because someone kills Mr Scruffy. Belkar responds by flipping out and dies in the ensuing fight, which could be a help or a hindrance to Roy's goals.

[Shoelessgdowar]

...Can somebody explain the joke?


"The climax" and "to come" are both ways to refer to an orgasm, so "anticlimax coming" is a contradiction.

An oxymoron is a term or phrase that contradicts itself either directly or indirectly Freezer Burn (Direct) and Military Intelligence (indirect) are two common ones.

Fyraltari is both spot on and close... a climax comes, so an Anticlimax would be the opposite, ergo going, so a going is to come :)

And as Lilly Von Shtupp would say, "Always too soon"

[Fyraltari]

Fyraltari is both spot on and close.
Considering that I made the joke, I would hope so, yes.

[pearl jam]

"The climax" and "to come" are both ways to refer to an orgasm, so "anticlimax coming" is a contradiction.


An oxymoron is a term or phrase that contradicts itself either directly or indirectly Freezer Burn (Direct) and Military Intelligence (indirect) are two common ones.

Fyraltari is both spot on and close... a climax comes, so an Anticlimax would be the opposite, ergo going, so a going is to come :)

And as Lilly Von Shtupp would say, "Always too soon"

In Japanese they say "iku" or "to go" when/to refer to climaxing, so a going is, indeed, to come. :smallbiggrin:

[Edward15]

Guys, a crazy and disturbing theory came to me. Suppose Seirini succeeds in force-feeding the Order than amnesia potion, and it ends up working too well and causes the Order to forget all their adventures together and returns them to how they were before they all met?

[arimareiji]

Considering that I made the joke, I would hope so, yes.
Silly rabbit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIRxMGvKipg), fics are for kids (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanonDiscontinuity)! (^_~)

Just curious, how many times would you guess you've seen people openly disagree with the Giant (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod) about What It All Means (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MisaimedFandom)?

(The actual number of times is probably too high to track, but how many digits would you guess are in the number?)

[dethkruzer]

I wasn't given a permission slip for this feels trip.

[The Pilgrim]

Guys, a crazy and disturbing theory came to me. Suppose Seirini succeeds in force-feeding the Order than amnesia potion, and it ends up working too well and causes the Order to forget all their adventures together and returns them to how they were before they all met?

Then the Giant could reboot the series and keep working on it for 17 more years.

[Rrmcklin]

Guys, a crazy and disturbing theory came to me. Suppose Seirini succeeds in force-feeding the Order than amnesia potion, and it ends up working too well and causes the Order to forget all their adventures together and returns them to how they were before they all met?

And what benefit would hard resetting all of the main characters provide?

[Edward15]

Then the Giant could reboot the series and keep working on it for 17 more years.
Not the reaction I was thinking of. I was expecting people to be upset about the concept that Order's character growth would be undone like that:

Roy would wonder why he's with a bunch of crazy idiots.
Durkon wouldn't remember the mission Thor gave him and once again think he was exiled for no good reason.
Varasuvius would once again become a pompous and arrogant wizard who believes in this superiority of Arcane magic (and be a bit shocked upon being pulled down into a pit by three fiends).
Belkar would once again become a psychotic little monster.
And I don't think I even need to mention Elan and Haley.


And what benefit would hard resetting all of the main characters provide?
Well, something would need to happen in order to forestall the final battle with Xykon. Not to mention the Order would have to get their act together again in order to stop him.

Considering a lot of cliches have already happened, the old "team-doesn't-remember-each-other" concept is one of the few that hasn't been used yet.

[dancrilis]

And what benefit would hard resetting all of the main characters provide?

The Order came closest to defeating Xykon in their first encounter - so setting them back to that might be just the strategy they need.

They can skillfully combat his prowess with their ineptitude - which also was Nale's most successful plan.

This also might with with the knowledge of bards if for instance at present the Order has a one in a thousand shot of taking down Xykon - if they can get that to one in a million it will become a sure thing.

[Ruck]

I mean, I'm willing to accept the poor phrasing as just early writing fumbles, I do think Elan was sincere (if only because early Elan had nary an insincere bone in his body). It is worth noting the number of times that "I'm sorry you were offended" has been used by SOBs to make an entirely insincere apology, as there's a drive into deep left field by Castellanos and that'll be a home run. And so that'll make it a 4-0 ballgame, and we need to make teach people why apologies like that need to be sincere and not weaselly.

Haha, good pull.

[Malfarian]

I am pretty surprised with Elan, this kind of exposition and unity almost always precedes someone's death due to some shocking incident.

He should try to stop it.

[Devils_Advocate]

What final destination for those that wanted to change, but just ran out of Time?
I think that those who tried and failed to live up to the ideals other Outer Planes go to the Gate Towns of the Outlands. Miko probably went to the one for Celestia, for example.


It might just be me being Lawful, but I think that Mechanus is a much better place to end up on than Limbo, even though they are both the "neutral" afterlife.
Mechanus isn't necessarily peaceful, what with those expansionist antlike beings. And it's safe to say that pretty much all authority regards personal freedom as a negative. By and large, there probably is a lot of Stability, but also a dearth of Potential.

[Goblin_Priest]

This is partly because LotR is purportedly European "before-times" but tobacco is a New-World plant. The same problem applies to the potatoes that Sam was so fond of.

And partly wishful thinking that the hobbits and wizards were stoned all the time.

Maybe the elves imported it and now grow it for everyone. The elves are irish?

[ErisStorm]

Elan is really growing on me and becoming a favourite character.

It's wonderful to see him continuing to learn from his experiences.

[ziproot]

I think that those who tried and failed to live up to the ideals other Outer Planes go to the Gate Towns of the Outlands. Miko probably went to the one for Celestia, for example.


Mechanus isn't necessarily peaceful, what with those expansionist antlike beings. And it's safe to say that pretty much all authority regards personal freedom as a negative. By and large, there probably is a lot of Stability, but also a dearth of Potential.

After thinking about it, it reminded me of The Giver.

[danielxcutter]

"The climax" and "to come" are both ways to refer to an orgasm, so "anticlimax coming" is a contradiction.

...Oh my god.


After thinking about it, it reminded me of The Giver.

I think the Giant said that the Mechanus afterlife is doing paperwork until your consciousness dissolves from the ennui or something? Still better than Baator though, where you LITERALLY get tortured to that point.

[arimareiji]

...Oh my god.
Could be worse... at least you didn't guess down the wrong road and wonder whether Serini's dramatic debut makes her Auntie Climax. :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: (>_<)


I think the Giant said that the Mechanus afterlife is doing paperwork until your consciousness dissolves from the ennui or something? Still better than Baator though, where you LITERALLY get tortured to that point.
Taking this in tandem with Eugene's sarcastic opinion that Roy being turned into a golem makes him a perfect fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0601.html), I wonder whether the upgraded version of LN paradise (for the ones whose lives match what they wrote on their character sheets) might be that you get to become a robot or a golem... for all eternity, you get to do only what you're told. (^_~)

[brionl]

Apparently (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/faq/newworld.php) the first edition of The Hobbit mentions tomatoes explicitly, but that was changed for later editions.

Also 'taters aka po-tay-toes, another New World plant.
In the Halcyon days of J.R.R.'s youth, Tobacco was often referred to as a "noxious weed" among other pejoratives. Pretty sure that's what he meant, wishful thinking of the hippies aside.

[pearl jam]

That's a fairly disturbing signature.

[Wraithfighter]

Taking this in tandem with Eugene's sarcastic opinion that Roy being turned into a golem makes him a perfect fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0601.html), I wonder whether the upgraded version of LN paradise (for the ones whose lives match what they wrote on their character sheets) might be that you get to become a robot or a golem... for all eternity, you get to do only what you're told. (^_~)

I figure that Lawful Neutral heaven would be like designing and playing incredibly complex but functional games.

Like, you know those board games that take a few hours to set up, and each turn has dozens of interactions? Like that, but more so. And also with elements of Lawful Calvinball, where participants can come up with new rules that might be interesting to work with, agreed to by everyone.

Because, after all, everyone's Lawful Neutral, they're not playing for the good or bad guys to win, or thinking about cheating the other players for their own gain, mastering and coming up with more and better rules is the biggest fun of it all. Better to lose to a perfectly played gambit than to win through a cheat to the pure Lawful Neutral sort.

...

That honestly sounds really fun.

[arimareiji]

I figure that Lawful Neutral heaven would be like designing and playing incredibly complex but functional games.

Like, you know those board games that take a few hours to set up, and each turn has dozens of interactions? Like that, but more so. And also with elements of Lawful Calvinball, where participants can come up with new rules that might be interesting to work with, agreed to by everyone.

Because, after all, everyone's Lawful Neutral, they're not playing for the good or bad guys to win, or thinking about cheating the other players for their own gain, mastering and coming up with more and better rules is the biggest fun of it all. Better to lose to a perfectly played gambit than to win through a cheat to the pure Lawful Neutral sort.

...

That honestly sounds really fun.
Well-said. Thinking about it more as a result of your post, I bet that would be one of the more popular destinations -- i.e. in the same way that not all LG's get off on the same things and thus you have the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right, the Tavern of Infinite One-Night Stands, etc.

[Riftwolf]

Just a brief aside: further up thread people were talking about Elan not really apologising when he said 'I'm sorry you got upset at my costume'. Would the correct phrasing be 'I'm sorry my costume offended you'? For once I'm not being facetious, I just struggle with phrasing sometimes.

[Goblin_Priest]

Just a brief aside: further up thread people were talking about Elan not really apologizing when he said 'I'm sorry you got upset at my costume'. Would the correct phrasing be 'I'm sorry my costume offended you'? For once I'm not being facetious, I just struggle with phrasing sometimes.

Kind of, though honestly the whole thing is ridiculous.

At the core, you should be apologizing for what you did, not for it's effects. What Elan did was wear the costume, and thus what he should be apologizing for, if wearing the costume was offensive, is the act of wearing that costume, and not for the offense it generated. "I'm sorry I wore that costume" would be more appropriate, as both sentences you wrote basically mean the same thing, though subtle differences (shifting the focus from the feeling offended to the costume is a step in the "right" direction).

But then it just makes it pretty obvious that Elan has nothing to apologize about, and V was just being a ridiculous snowflake. If Elan wants to become a wizard, good for him. It's none of V's business to be offended about it. Elan was just flattering through mimicry. He neither meant offense, nor did offense, regardless of how V felt about it.

So in this case, it's kind of appropriate that he said "I'm sorry you got upset at my costume", since the costume was not inherently offensive or wrong in any way, and he's just sorry he made V upset. Which is a legitimate sentiment. Sometimes you can feel bad about making others feel bad even when you know what you did wasn't wrong in itself.

[ziproot]

Kind of, though honestly the whole thing is ridiculous.

At the core, you should be apologizing for what you did, not for it's effects. What Elan did was wear the costume, and thus what he should be apologizing for, if wearing the costume was offensive, is the act of wearing that costume, and not for the offense it generated. "I'm sorry I wore that costume" would be more appropriate, as both sentences you wrote basically mean the same thing, though subtle differences (shifting the focus from the feeling offended to the costume is a step in the "right" direction).

But then it just makes it pretty obvious that Elan has nothing to apologize about, and V was just being a ridiculous snowflake. If Elan wants to become a wizard, good for him. It's none of V's business to be offended about it. Elan was just flattering through mimicry. He neither meant offense, nor did offense, regardless of how V felt about it.

So in this case, it's kind of appropriate that he said "I'm sorry you got upset at my costume", since the costume was not inherently offensive or wrong in any way, and he's just sorry he made V upset. Which is a legitimate sentiment. Sometimes you can feel bad about making others feel bad even when you know what you did wasn't wrong in itself.

I think Vaarsuvius was more mad at this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html), though.
EDIT: And by the way, according to the Class and Level Geekery thread, Elan has too low of an intelligence to cast Wizard spells. Despite what he was saying, he would not actually be able to cast any spells. Vaarsuvius was probably just trying to help Elan, but they have an abysmal Charisma score so they phrased it terribly and just made things worse.

[bunsen_h]

Just a brief aside: further up thread people were talking about Elan not really apologising when he said 'I'm sorry you got upset at my costume'. Would the correct phrasing be 'I'm sorry my costume offended you'? For once I'm not being facetious, I just struggle with phrasing sometimes.

That's still only so-so, as it's putting the blame on the costume. Better would be "I'm sorry I offended you by wearing that costume". One might add an "I didn't realize it would do that"; that's about the limit as far as excuses/explanations go.

[Anitar]

I figure that Lawful Neutral heaven would--
I'm just gonna stop you right there. It's not supposed to be "heaven". The Good-aligned afterlives, not the Neutrals, are the heavenly ones.



Just a brief aside: further up thread people were talking about Elan not really apologising when he said 'I'm sorry you got upset at my costume'. Would the correct phrasing be 'I'm sorry my costume offended you'? For once I'm not being facetious, I just struggle with phrasing sometimes.

When a person does something offensive, they should be apologizing for doing something offensive. Apologizing for what they did-- in this case, inadvertently trivializing and making a mockery of the years of study that goes into being/becoming a Wizard.

[Dion]

That's still only so-so, as it's putting the blame on the costume. Better would be "I'm sorry I offended you by wearing that costume". One might add an "I didn't realize it would do that"; that's about the limit as far as excuses/explanations go.

But keep in mind there’s a HUGE difference between personal apologies, like the one Elan gave to V, and public apology announcements.

Personal apologies, in real life, take the form of conversations. They’re often, in real life, awkward and clumsy, full of embarrassment and bad phrasing and stumbles. Real personal apologies are hard, and give both sides a chance to have a difficult dialogue and work toward healing a relationship.

“I’m sorry you were offended” isn’t a great opening for a personal apology, and Elan should have done better. But anyone who rejects a personal apology for bad wording is frankly not worth the effort of apologizing to.

Public apology announcements are entirely different. Public apology announcements are carefully scripted theater done by public persons to change a public image, not to repair a personal relationship. You don’t have any kind of dialogue with the people you’re “apologizing” to, because you don’t have any relationship with them. If someone isn’t willing to follow the standard public apology announcement script, and instead says “I’m sorry you were offended” it’s generally because the offensive behavior they’re refusing to apologize for is the public image they want..

But... yeah. Two totally and 100% different things, and it’s a shame that we call them both “apologies” in English.

[Goblin_Priest]

I think Vaarsuvius was more mad at this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html), though.
EDIT: And by the way, according to the Class and Level Geekery thread, Elan has too low of an intelligence to cast Wizard spells. Despite what he was saying, he would not actually be able to cast any spells. Vaarsuvius was probably just trying to help Elan, but they have an abysmal Charisma score so they phrased it terribly and just made things worse.

No, I think it's pretty clear by precisely these that V held Elan in contempt, and hated the idea that someone as dumb as Elan could pick up the first wizard level so easily when V had to spend decades on training and studying for. It's contempt, it's jealousy, it's arrogance.

And it's certainly nothing wrong on Elan's part, and in no way of his fault. V was mad because V had a character flaw that Elan just happened to innocently expose.

Elan did not "mock" wizardry, be it as a class or its costume. He legitimately wanted to become a wizard, because of how cool V was in his eyes.

[Riftwolf]

That's still only so-so, as it's putting the blame on the costume. Better would be "I'm sorry I offended you by wearing that costume". One might add an "I didn't realize it would do that"; that's about the limit as far as excuses/explanations go.

I was thinking of similar phrasing. Basically as someone with autism I can be clumsy with wording, especially in the context of offending/upsetting people inadvertently. Thanks for the advice and I hope to never have to use it.

[wumpus]

I know I had to have mentioned this here before, but at another place I discuss this strip, someone stated that the Giant is likely to subvert this trope of fantasy prophecy...by following it exactly. No it's, but's, exits. Belkar will die before the New Year, and he will do it towards the very, very end of this entire tale.

Though I can't see how he earns the CG-ish afterlife fantasy with Shojo I'd love to see him get. He's trying to be better now, true; but he hasn't even come close to atoning for all of the people he hurt before Roy and Shojo got ahold of him. (Thats's a lot of kiloNazis.) And he now seems like a better person than Limbo deserves. What final destination for those that wanted to change, but just ran out of Time?

Maybe that's another deconstruction from the Giant?

If he becomes a CE [hairy]footsoldier in the Blood War, he will have a chance to rise to "Sexy Shoeless God of War". Judging from the kilonazis, I doubt he'd even wind up in Pandemonium (but for all I know, they also supply Blood War fodder). He might be better off as a Yugoloth mercenary, but he's never shown any reason to change his chaotic stance, just his evil one.

I'm just worried that the rift will get him.

[Good Coyote]

I think the issue with the wizard jokes was exactly what V and Elan discussed.

Elan knows that "frabjulitulity" doesn't mean anything. He doesn't intend it to. He was intentionally spoofing wizards, it's just that he personally would take bard jokes as a legitimate and welcome way to interact with the class. He's a bard. He knows that putting on a wizard hat doesn't actually make you a wizard (by direct empirical evidence in the strip even). It's just that... he's a bard, he believes that spoofing something is a way to show your respect.

But it's not just about V feeling superior and not wanting Elan to get his lowint/highcha cooties all over their class. They spent their life in a parody world, but it was still their life, their valuable time, that they took seriously. They sacrificed everything else they could have focused on in order to become a wizard. Elan straight up told them that they shouldn't have bothered.

His jokes did reveal V's character flaw of superiority, but only because what V heard was "your priorities are dumb and you wasted your life" (to which V's response was basically "no YOU'RE dumb, you could never achieve what I accomplished with my life")

But it's not like Elan's jokes were actually harmful to anything but V's ego. Wizards aren't at a social disadvantage because of stereotypes that they use fancy words or anything.

I do think a better wording would be "I'm sorry I joked about that. I didn't realize it was a sore spot and I won't do it again." Or a lot of other things that people have suggested would work. But it really was an accident. The problem isn't inherently Elan's jokes, it's that he kept going after V didn't find it funny. (Which Elan being Elan may have missed the signals about, and V should have been able to more clearly tell him to stop without immediately going to "you're an addle-brained fool too stupid to dress yourself," so yes it's good that they apologized too.)

If Elan meets a wizard who loves being spoofed, it would be fine for him to spoof them and share a laugh together. The problem is doing it to V.

[mjasghar]

Then the Giant could reboot the series and keep working on it for 17 more years.

I really hate those tv serials where the initial writer comes back after years for the final shows and resets the characters undoing all the development
Yes Drop the Dead Donkey I’m looking at you.

[warnabrother718]

Hey, I appreciate the love fest that's going on with the characters but is nobody else's mind blown by the fact ELAN WAS NEVER AS DUMB AS HE APPEARED?!?!? He was faking his stupidity from day one!!!

[arimareiji]

I do think a better wording would be "I'm sorry I joked about that. I didn't realize it was a sore spot and I won't do it again." Or a lot of other things that people have suggested would work. But it really was an accident. The problem isn't inherently Elan's jokes, it's that he kept going after V didn't find it funny. [emphasis added] (Which Elan being Elan may have missed the signals about, and V should have been able to more clearly tell him to stop without immediately going to "you're an addle-brained fool too stupid to dress yourself," so yes it's good that they apologized too.)

If Elan meets a wizard who loves being spoofed, it would be fine for him to spoof them and share a laugh together. The problem is doing it to V.

Indeed... but it's another reason I think "I'm sorry you took offense at my wizard costume" is a nonpology*. Aside from the big red neon sign of "I'm sorry you took offense", another hallmark of nonpologies is that they reframe the apologist's own role as negligible (if they mention it at all).
* - Which is a separate matter from whether Elan worded it that way by accident, whether V understood there was sincere intent behind it, and/or V was just happy to drop the subject** once V expressed remorse over their own actions***.
** - Imo, 1230 provides significant evidence for the latter.
*** - The truest apology isn't to suggest "I'm sorry but you should be too". It's to say "My actions were regrettable, and I'm sorry for them" without prompting the apologee to express a true apology of their own.

The issue was never the costume. The issue was Elan poking fun at wizards/V at length, while getting no feedback that it was understood or welcome. All V expressed in response was first frustration in 126 (panels 10 and 11), then anger in 127 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html) (panel 3) -- which Elan interrupted and then talked over, giving V no chance to articulate why he should stop.

If you poke fun at someone, thinking they'll understand it's all in good fun... and not only get no laughter or teasing back, but get stony silence or even clear anger in response, you STOP. You don't bull ahead, continuing until their anger exceeds their ability to "grin and bear it", then make it out to be their fault alone for being too sensitive.


Hey, I appreciate the love fest that's going on with the characters but is nobody else's mind blown by the fact ELAN WAS NEVER AS DUMB AS HE APPEARED?!?!? He was faking his stupidity from day one!!!
I'm trying very hard not to think about it, myself. If I accept Elan's actions in 101 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html) (third row of panels) as being cunning rather than dumb luck, then I start thinking about how he carries out that exact threat on V in 127 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html). And if I do that, and factor in the sentiments I expressed above... I might think of him as a gaslighter rather than "dumb but means well". And I don't especially want to.

So, yeah. "That Dumb-Is-Always-Cute Elan sure does accidentally do a lot of things that benefit him and/or the party, doesn't he?" is my story, and I'm sticking to it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BewKY_BpVXg). (^_~)

Edit: Minor refactors. I really need to either make myself wait a few minutes after "finishing" before I post, or never look back at posts to see poor wording that will bug me. (^_^)°

[Evil_Lamp_6]

Maybe the real adventure was the friends we made along the way.

[Ghosty]

If he becomes a CE [hairy]footsoldier in the Blood War, he will have a chance to rise to "Sexy Shoeless God of War". Judging from the kilonazis, I doubt he'd even wind up in Pandemonium (but for all I know, they also supply Blood War fodder). He might be better off as a Yugoloth mercenary, but he's never shown any reason to change his chaotic stance, just his evil one.

I'm just worried that the rift will get him.

Which would be fine, if he were still the guy who went drinking with Buggy Lou, but he's not. He's actually trying to get better and change who he was. (It's just a whole lot of ground to get past, considering who he was----and a lot of that is covering the graves of his victims.)

Frankly---and he'd be bored silly if they let him in---he deserves to be in Celestia more than Roy's Dad. (Whose name I hilariously can't remember right now, but i can remember him winning some awards for Best Illusion. Darned if I'll go look it up, though.)

It's an interesting question: in a universe where your deeds dictate where you go when you die, how much should you be judged by what you've done, versus by how much you're currently doing?

[Good Coyote]

cut for length


All good points.

[tinfoil hat on]
He also still considers the incident as part of a "you guys used to be pretty mean to me" pattern, even though V did deliver a thorough and well crafted apology at the time, and completely put away their offense at Elan's teasing. V's right, they should not be included in such a narrative.

It seems like Elan didn't put his offense at V's insults down in turn. Which also makes it seem like he remembered the other things because they are things he felt hurt about. Which is fine. Except he framed it as things that he did not realize were connected by other people being mean to him until after he brought them up. That would be passive aggressive at best.
[tinfoil hat off]

Of course obviously Elan could remember things that mildly sting more easily, but still just think of them as "we all had fun, and a few times it was at my expense" until he said them out loud. Adorable man.



(N.B. To be clear, I agree and don't want to actually apply an Evil Elan reading to the comic. But since in most cases we can't ever actually see inside someone's head, I think being able to construct different interpretations and see the evidence for them without thinking they must be true is a good skill and fun to exercise.

It works the other way too, sometimes you're convinced that every move someone makes means they're malicious and want to offend you, and it's good to be able to think about whether or not it'd be possible that you're reading into it too much.)

[Ghosty]

They spent their life in a parody world, but it was still their life, their valuable time, that they took seriously. They sacrificed everything else they could have focused on in order to become a wizard. Elan straight up told them that they shouldn't have bothered.

His jokes did reveal V's character flaw of superiority, but only because what V heard was "your priorities are dumb and you wasted your life"...

It does tie in with the initial and continuing themes of spoofing the silliness of the 3.5 rules, and a bit of D&D itself. The strips surrounding Elanificus go into how silly in practice the multi class rules could be in D&D. How Elan conceivably could be looking over V's shoulder and treating magic as a hobby, while it took V decades of study to pick up hir first level. And Elan's right; they shouldn't have bothered. V's ultimate goal of great arcane power wasn't going to give them what they wanted anyway, and in any event could have been picked up far easier than utterly neglecting their family.

The satirizing continues. First Miron, with his 'OK, let's kill some doods,' and now with Xykon---who looks perfectly happy to keep dungeon crawling through an essentially infinite space until the end of Time---it really looks like the Giant has been trying to put that kind of player in a bad light.

Especially if you start thinking of the opponents as creatures with their own dreams, with agency towards enacting those dreams. Not as little chunks of running XP.

Something's going to have to give in this version of Stickworld, and maybe how we play these games as a whole.

[arimareiji]

Which would be fine, if he were still the guy who went drinking with Buggy Lou, but he's not. He's actually trying to get better and change who he was. (It's just a whole lot of ground to get past, considering who he was----and a lot of that is covering the graves of his victims.)

Frankly---and he'd be bored silly if they let him in---he deserves to be in Celestia more than Roy's Dad. (Whose name I hilariously can't remember right now, but i can remember him winning some awards for Best Illusion. Darned if I'll go look it up, though.)

It's an interesting question: in a universe where your deeds dictate where you go when you die, how much should you be judged by what you've done, versus by how much you're currently doing?
Eugene, and I understand the sentiment. (^_~)

Imo, the best answer to that question is "What is the universe's decisionmakers' goal?"
~ If it's "To reward the sum total of good deeds in the mortal plane" (like an employer with an employee in another country), then the criteria should be "What have you done over your entire lifetime?"
~ If it's "To select the best people to be around for eternity" (like an SO deciding whether you can stay with them or have to go somewhere else), then the criteria should be "Who have you become?"

Considering that a key element is "Who do you want living in your plane?", I'd vote for the latter... but luckily for everyone I'm not one of the universe's decisionmakers.

One thing that complicates the issue is whether our souls remain capable of change in the afterlife, or whether they're freeze-framed in their last "living" state. At least here in the mortal plane, past deeds are one of our best gauges of what someone will do in the future. I'd like to think the devas of the universe would be able to understand the true state of someone's soul (or at least intent) better than "by what they say about it"... if that's the case, words<deeds<intent for gauging a person.

[Good Coyote]

It does tie in with the initial and continuing themes of spoofing the silliness of the 3.5 rules, and a bit of D&D itself. The strips surrounding Elanificus go into how silly in practice the multi class rules could be in D&D. How Elan conceivably could be looking over V's shoulder and treating magic as a hobby, while it took V decades of study to pick up hir first level. And Elan's right; they shouldn't have bothered. V's ultimate goal of great arcane power wasn't going to give them what they wanted anyway, and in any event could have been picked up far easier than utterly neglecting their family.

The satirizing continues. First Miron, with his 'OK, let's kill some doods,' and now with Xykon---who looks perfectly happy to keep dungeon crawling through an essentially infinite space until the end of Time---it really looks like the Giant has been trying to put that kind of player in a bad light.

Especially if you start thinking of the opponents as creatures with their own dreams, with agency towards enacting those dreams. Not as little chunks of running XP.

Something's going to have to give in this version of Stickworld, and maybe how we play these games as a whole.

Yeah, exactly.

The real reason V would have devoted their life to being a wizard in such a way (if they were an actual PC) is because that's the kind of person that their player wanted to roleplay. It'd be bad table manners to keep pointing out that mechanically, a character needed to do no such thing, if the player was obviously not reacting well to such a joke. "Hey I know you characterized your wizard as very smart and devoted, but it's actually kinda dumb to spend your whole life doing something that my character could do right now. I am going to actually do that, in order to establish in our own personal table world that your character took decades to do what my dumbass is going to do in the time since the party formed."

I guess you could put that down on a character level as "V became a studious wizard and sacrificed a lot because V wanted to be the kind of person who would be focused and make sacrifices in the service of knowledge." Which is bonkers in our world, to make things that hard for yourself just to be the kind of person who does difficult things. But things work differently in ootsworld. The mechanical rules apply. We could also apply the rp conventions of "this is what you do in order to play this kind of person," and then Elan is making fun of V for the kind of person that they want to be, which it's really understandable to be sensitive about.

Elan is speaking the truth about the game though. Roleplay and mechanics don't line up. And since it's an early strip designed to make that point, I'm inclined to cut him a break. He's doing his bard job of satirizing the world and V got caught in the crossfire.

[arimareiji]

(N.B. To be clear, I agree and don't want to actually apply an Evil Elan reading to the comic. But since in most cases we can't ever actually see inside someone's head, I think being able to construct different interpretations and see the evidence for them without thinking they must be true is a good skill and fun to exercise.

It works the other way too, sometimes you're convinced that every move someone makes means they're malicious and want to offend you, and it's good to be able to think about whether or not it'd be possible that you're reading into it too much.)
Hanlon's Razor does me a world of good, when I remember it. (^_~)

Too often, "Evil" and "Good" become synonymous in our heads with "Doing things I don't like" and "Doing things I like. (Louis Rossmann has a good take (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qymVoVqUAJM) on some of the reasons I believe this to be true.)

And in the end, it's an extremely rare bird (likely with several crossed wires) who genuinely sets about with "Evil" intent. We're extraordinarily good at crafting narratives in which we're the "Good" person no matter what others might think. "They hurt my feelings by not inviting me, and they're probably disturbing the neighbors, so I'll call the cops." "Sure I took X and refused to pay, but they don't deserve that much anyway." "If she hadn't been such a b****, I wouldn't have [gone far out of my way to do her severe harm]." And so on.

To me, that cuts both ways wrt Hanlon's Razor... stupidity/ignorance/etc really are far more likely than overt malice. But the reason it's hard to tell, is that too often the results of rationalization are identical to the results of overt malice.

[Doug Lampert]

Hey, I appreciate the love fest that's going on with the characters but is nobody else's mind blown by the fact ELAN WAS NEVER AS DUMB AS HE APPEARED?!?!? He was faking his stupidity from day one!!!

Eh, he can be an idiot and still deliberately underplay his intelligence and how much he understands.

Or just no bother to pay attention.

[Devils_Advocate]

Thinking about it more as a result of your post, I bet that would be one of the more popular destinations -- i.e. in the same way that not all LG's get off on the same things and thus you have the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right, the Tavern of Infinite One-Night Stands, etc.

I'm just gonna stop you right there. It's not supposed to be "heaven". The Good-aligned afterlives, not the Neutrals, are the heavenly ones.
I'm just gonna stop you right there. The purpose of all of that stuff on the first layer of the mountain is not to provide a fun-filled retirement from a life of altruism. The point is to give petitioners the chance to get sick of indulging all of their petty desires in order to free them from distractions from enlightenment. Which is good, because Good-aligned characters wouldn't want to quit performing acts of kindness and settle down to an eternity of hookers and blow or whatever. If you only helped others in order to get a reward for yourself, you were never Good-aligned in the first place, y'know?


http://user-images.strikinglycdn.com/res/hrscywv4p/image/upload/c_limit,f_auto,h_900,q_80,w_1200/211691/http_featherfiles_aviary_com_2014-10-24_f5da8ea5e_50c7073d18f040eea1dd18c50bc5dbe4_jpgk kd.jpg
https://i.redd.it/o7c5zuhxxyv11.jpg
And someone who wasn't Good wouldn't want to move past other concerns in order to better love others. Jirix calls his afterlife his "eternal reward" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) because that's what he wants. The Good Outer Planes aren't the objectively pleasant ones, because objective pleasantness isn't a thing. Do you expect that one being could be happy in another's heaven? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unmQl3wK83M)


[Elan] neither meant offense, nor did offense, regardless of how V felt about it.
What's the difference between offensive things and inoffensive things if not that the former cause feelings that the latter do not?

I suppose something being called "offensive" generally indicates that it offends whoever is using the word "offensive", but in that context taking issue with anyone else's use of "offensive" is fairly nonsensical, isn't it? Like, "Well, I'm not offended, so you're wrong to feel otherwise". Attempting once again to accurately generalize about usage in practice, I suppose that "wrong" feelings in this context are feelings that are at odds with one's own. But at that point "wrong to feel other than I do" becomes redundant at best. Perplexing.

[KorvinStarmast]

ELAN WAS NEVER AS DUMB AS HE APPEARED?!?!? He was faking his stupidity from day one!!! Strips number 109 and 118 are evidence against this position.

(And if you've read The Origin of the PCs, his dumbacity in service of the Paladin was substantial)

[arimareiji]

But keep in mind there’s a HUGE difference between personal apologies, like the one Elan gave to V, and public apology announcements.
[...]
But... yeah. Two totally and 100% different things, and it’s a shame that we call them both “apologies” in English.
A combination of the increasingly-absurd form of recent public apologies, and the constant evolution of language, seems to be doing its best to remedy that. (^_~) The slang terms "fauxpology" or "nonpology" seem not unlikely to catch on in the same way "gaslight" has as a verb... although that wouldn't be a fair characterization of the public apologies that sincerely express regret for harming others (vs regret for being caught and/or called out).


I'm just gonna stop you right there. The purpose of all of that stuff on the first layer of the mountain is not to provide a fun-filled retirement from a life of altruism. [emphasis added] The point is to give petitioners the chance to get sick of indulging all of their petty desires in order to free them from distractions from enlightenment. Which is good, because Good-aligned characters wouldn't want to quit performing acts of kindness and settle down to an eternity of hookers and blow or whatever. If you only helped others in order to get a reward for yourself, you were never Good-aligned in the first place, y'know?


http://user-images.strikinglycdn.com/res/hrscywv4p/image/upload/c_limit,f_auto,h_900,q_80,w_1200/211691/http_featherfiles_aviary_com_2014-10-24_f5da8ea5e_50c7073d18f040eea1dd18c50bc5dbe4_jpgk kd.jpg
https://i.redd.it/o7c5zuhxxyv11.jpg
And someone who wasn't Good wouldn't want to move past other concerns in order to better love others. Jirix calls his afterlife his "eternal reward" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) because that's what he wants. The Good Outer Planes aren't the objectively pleasant ones, because objective pleasantness isn't a thing. Do you expect that one being could be happy in another's heaven? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unmQl3wK83M)
Indeed. I was trying to imply, but didn't express clearly at all, that the hypothetical destinations aren't the true essence of LN "heaven" as it were -- just popular destinations within it, according to individuals' preferences.


What's the difference between offensive things and inoffensive things if not that the former cause feelings that the latter do not?

I suppose something being called "offensive" generally indicates that it offends whoever is using the word "offensive", but in that context taking issue with anyone else's use of "offensive" is fairly nonsensical, isn't it? Like, "Well, I'm not offended, so you're wrong to feel otherwise". Attempting once again to accurately generalize about usage in practice, I suppose that "wrong" feelings in this context are feelings that are at odds with one's own. But at that point "wrong to feel other than I do" becomes redundant at best. Perplexing.
Indeed. If I call someone an antiquated slur to try to hurt their feelings, but they're not offended because they're too young to understand, I still intended to cause offense. Or if I use a term that (unknown to me) is offensive to a social group I'm not part of, I didn't intend to cause offense even if one of that group hears and is offended.

[meganium]

I feel like Elan was probably more just playing up things for laughs rather than being a cunning sociopath or complete moron the entire time. In regards to strips 101 and 127, it's possible to acknowledge the social consequences of making another person upset in high school while still being being legitimately upset if you feel like someone you respect/admire insults you. Especially given that so much of Elans charm and charisma is how sincere and open he is. He's really never been stupid, just emotional/impulsive/empathetic, and has consistently been one of the most emotionally mature characters since almost the very beginning.

[Devils_Advocate]

With regard to Elan's intelligence or lack thereof, I'm reminded of someone's assessment that Torg from Sluggy Freelance is "only stupid when he doesn't bother to think... which is most of the time".

In Elan's case, though, that seems a bit overly generous. For instance: Elan only considered multiclassing to Wizard, and earlier to Cleric, because he didn't get that specific roles aren't inherently tied to classes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html). He even goes on to make better use of illusion magic under Vaarsuvuis's tutelage, and later to learn healing spells. So not only was Elan considering bad ideas that wouldn't have worked, they were needlessly complicated (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) anyway. (Well, they are brothers...)

[Good Coyote]

Thinking about it, this comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1091.html) does suggest to me that Elan knows a bit more than he lets on, at least some of the time. (Edit: Actually, it pretty much proves it. He wouldn't "get" the joke at his expense if he genuinely didn't understand what non-sentient means.)

I also think he actually really lacked emotional intelligence early on.

Continuing to make jokes at someone else's expense could be a failure to understand which actions are upsetting the other person, or that your actions are upsetting them at all, or the difference between light ribbing and pushing the issue way past the line. All of that is a lack of emotional intelligence. If he was emotionally intelligent but just not smart, he would have known to stop even if he didn't understand why V wasn't happy. He could have stopped and asked why.

Also, bursting into sobs and stammering then running away because someone snapped at you doesn't indicate skills at managing your own emotions.

It's like he says. "I did stuff based on whether it was cool or funny in the moment, not whether it helped anyone." Or earlier, "I've always done whatever it took to make things as dramatic as possible too... but they're not worth hurting people over." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0938.html) He's talking explicitly about Tarquin who hurts people for stories, but he says it in reaction to Julio, who just didn't bother to share important information because it was cooler if Haley wasn't helped that way. Julio did not stop to think about the pain that Haley was put in (because of that moment where Nale was convincing Elan that Haley was Evil, which wouldnt have happened with earlier communication for example - yeah that healed her speech, but still).

That could overlap with emotional intelligence as "Oh, I wasn't choosing to pay attention and sharpen my emotional skills so that I can avoid hurting people."

With the Mind Blank joke, he's figured it out. V is frustrated, but the butt of the joke is Elan. And he doesn't freak out like he did earlier either. He's become emotionally intelligent enough to regulate his response and find the insult (which he fished for) funny.

[tanonx]

Thinking about it, this comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1091.html) does suggest to me that Elan knows a bit more than he lets on, at least some of the time. (Edit: Actually, it pretty much proves it. He wouldn't "get" the joke at his expense if he genuinely didn't understand what non-sentient means.)

I do want to note, V explained what non-sentient meant when Elan asked. Which itself is a bit of development from giving everyone the dismissive treatment in the past. Seems like communication really is key.

Where Julio is concerned, I think "it made for a better story" is as much a reference to that bardic sense of metaknowledge as anything else. If something makes for a better story, that's also likely to be the course of action that actually works, while other things might run the risk of making the situation worse. From a meta-narrative standpoint, what if Haley's speech sub-plot gets delayed or dropped entirely, leaving her permanently incomprehensible?

And from a more practical point of view, what if Haley finding out lead to a premature confrontation that left her on the losing end until Elan showed up with Thog... who would then attack her with a door a few times on top of all the other injuries.

Oddly enough, this was a risk Julio pointed out ahead of time, despite the dramatic potential of an unforeseen betrayal. But why? Obligatory mentor behavior? A firm belief in good foreshadowing? No, I think there's one factor that draws this all together: The Mechane.

As we all know, Julio's ship travels at the speed of plot, always arriving just in the nick of time. But that's the kicker: it's always just in time. So, any slowing of the final confrontation will likewise slow the ship's arrival, delaying vital help for any pre-climax perils that might present themselves. Thog, as a participant in that final showdown, won't affect the ship's speed either way, and can be safely addressed.

Or I could be making all that up as I go.

Anyway, long story short, Tarquin uses his powers for evil, Julio uses his powers to rescue people, and Elan has learned that there's more to the world than powers. The mark of true character growth.

[locksmith of lo]

One thing that complicates the issue is whether our souls remain capable of change in the afterlife, or whether they're freeze-framed in their last "living" state. At least here in the mortal plane, past deeds are one of our best gauges of what someone will do in the future. I'd like to think the devas of the universe would be able to understand the true state of someone's soul (or at least intent) better than "by what they say about it"... if that's the case, words<deeds<intent for gauging a person.

usually the answer is that the dead are dead. but even dante's inferno had an exit. i think heaven should also have an exit too, but that is another story. but in roy's afterlife, it seemed that they could at least change, though i would say only within their selected afterlive's setting. because they could settle down at the "tavern of unlimited one night stands" until they became bored and decided to move on. that suggest some kind of change. but mostly, i would say that is a lightening, a shedding off, rather than an evolution. other realms with eternal fighting and feasting, i would say that they participate in this endless cycle until one day there is a distraction that catches their attention and they move on.

[Good Coyote]

I do want to note, V explained what non-sentient meant when Elan asked. Which itself is a bit of development from giving everyone the dismissive treatment in the past. Seems like communication really is key.

True. To be honest, even before what we think of as V's big growth moment following Familicide, V was a very good teacher to Elan on how to use illusions. With the celestial lion on the junk, V could have just told Elan "No questions! Make exactly what I tell you and move it where I say when I say," and not try to explain how they were attempting to fool the goblins. Elan didn't need to understand why in order to cast the spell and control the illusion.

It could be that V thought Elan wouldn't cooperate if he didn't know what was going on and would mess up somehow, but considering the popular theory that "Elan not knowing the plan makes it more likely to succeed," that's fairly generous of them already.


On the Mechane... very good point. Elan could learn the same lesson about what he wants in life, by thinking about what kind of priorities you need to have in life, in order to stick with a ship that will only ever let you barely succeed (but guarantee at least the partial success of showing up in time, and maximum drama), at the expense of people you care about being guaranteed to experience lesser pain while they wait for you. But it does make Julio's choices look a lot better.

[danielxcutter]

It seems the "non-sentient" joke was something Elan preempted so he'd see it coming to me.

[Goblin_Priest]

Elan was right, though. V didn't have to spend all those years and all that effort to become a wizard. That's 100% on V.

In his defense, though, a lvl 5 wizard is much better than a lvl 1 rogue/lvl 4 wizard. Multiclassing saves time and effort, but gives way less bang for your buck when the currency is XP.

Just because some people put in a ton of work towards something, doesn't mean that easier alternatives can't be used or pointed out. "I spent years of my life towards this, and thus only people who put equivalent years and effort are worthy of the same results" is 1) elitist beyond belief, and 2) hold innovation and efficiency in complete contempt, promotes institutions like nepotism.

When someone's cutting a log with a butter knife when there's a chainsaw next to him, he's not entitled to be shielded from the folly of his choices. Another would be well within their rights to point this out. And someone choosing to cut his own log with the chainsaw instead of imitating his predecessor with a butter knife is not in any way wrong.


What's the difference between offensive things and inoffensive things if not that the former cause feelings that the latter do not?

I suppose something being called "offensive" generally indicates that it offends whoever is using the word "offensive", but in that context taking issue with anyone else's use of "offensive" is fairly nonsensical, isn't it? Like, "Well, I'm not offended, so you're wrong to feel otherwise". Attempting once again to accurately generalize about usage in practice, I suppose that "wrong" feelings in this context are feelings that are at odds with one's own. But at that point "wrong to feel other than I do" becomes redundant at best. Perplexing.

An inherently offensive statement is offensive to a reasonable person (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person), not merely for being offensive to a single person. It needs a basis, logic, in which it yields offense.

To censor speech based on the most easily offended people to roam the earth is a path to folly, because some people get worked up for the most ridiculous of things.

And as a result of this, to offend someone is not inherently wrong. To illustrate, think of the metaphor of the butterfly effect, where a butterfly's flap of its wing causes cascade reactions that cause a hurricane on the other side of the world. Is the butterfly wrong? Was flapping its wings wrong? It could not predict with any level of certainty what the results of its actions would be, it was just doing what is not only normal, but vital for him. He could not be faulted for the impacts he had on others. You cannot promise to not repeat unforeseeable consequences. Such is with offense over words. One can be held to account with uttering things than a reasonable person could find offensive. But if one offends another by triggering an unknowable personality flaw or quirk, then one cannot be said to have dome something wrong, for the consequences of his actions were unforeseeable.

[dancrilis]

I think a problem with offence is that it cannot be given only taken - but it is very easy to take even by accident.

As such:
On the part of the person with the offence they should not scatter it around as it might cling to other people and annoy them - instead they should keep it contained and only use it in controlled circumstances, this is obviously difficult as one might not know they even have any offence in the first place.
On the part of the person who takes the offence they should put it back and try to avoid it in the future - maybe taking steps to ensure that such offence would be properly contained.

However there are two types of people that make this even more difficult.
1: People who do try to leave offence everywhere in the hopes that someone might step in it.
2: People who try to take as much offence as possible regardless of how securely it is contained or the cirsumstances in which it was deployed.

Elan was not trying to give offence - Vaarsuvius took it.
Elan's mistake was they didn't consider how easy the offence would be to pick up and so didn't contain it properly.
Vaarsuvius's mistake was taking the offence at all.

Vaarsuvius did however realise that they overreacted and effectively put the offence down (panel 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html)) likely somewhat based on Elan indicating that they didn't know they had left any offence out (panel 9 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html)), and Elan then moved to contain the offence by effectively indicating they understood offence had been taken because they had left it out to be found (panel 11 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html)).

[mjasghar]

That’s blatantly false
If you were to use a racially pejorative word to someone knowing it was offensive then how can you say you weren’t being offensive and it’s the fault of the person you were abusing for being offended? Seriously?

[dancrilis]

If you were to use a racially pejorative word to someone knowing it was offensive then how can you say you weren’t being offensive and it’s the fault of the person you were abusing for being offended? Seriously?

Had he been aware Redcloak might be offended by being called a greenskin (panel 3 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html)) and that hobgoblin might have intended it in an offensive manner - however if Redcloak (an no one else) was not offended then no offence would have been taken taken, now you could still regard it as offensive on Redcloak's behalf but that is you taking offence that wasn't even intended for you.

As mentioned above some people who try to be offensive do try to give offence - but ultimately if one does not actually take offence then none can be given.

[bunsen_h]

But if one offends another by triggering an unknowable personality flaw or quirk, then one cannot be said to have dome something wrong, for the consequences of his actions were unforeseeable.

That's a bit context-dependent, and depends partially on what events follow.

I once saw a woman rough-housing with a young girl. Everything looked like fun and games for both, until the woman picked the girl up to swing her around. The girl freaked out. The woman put her down and asked what was wrong. The girl couldn't talk.

Another person nearby quietly explained to the woman that the girl had been abused by her mother's ex.

The decent thing for the woman to do was to apologize to the girl. "I'm sorry I scared you. I didn't mean to do that."

As opposed to what she actually did, which was to confront the girl. "I didn't hurt you, did I? No? Then you don't have anything to be upset about, do you?"

One of my long-standing regrets is that I didn't think to step in at that point.

[Good Coyote]

Elan was right, though. V didn't have to spend all those years and all that effort to become a wizard. That's 100% on V.

In his defense, though, a lvl 5 wizard is much better than a lvl 1 rogue/lvl 4 wizard. Multiclassing saves time and effort, but gives way less bang for your buck when the currency is XP.

Just because some people put in a ton of work towards something, doesn't mean that easier alternatives can't be used or pointed out. "I spent years of my life towards this, and thus only people who put equivalent years and effort are worthy of the same results" is 1) elitist beyond belief, and 2) hold innovation and efficiency in complete contempt, promotes institutions like nepotism.

When someone's cutting a log with a butter knife when there's a chainsaw next to him, he's not entitled to be shielded from the folly of his choices. Another would be well within their rights to point this out. And someone choosing to cut his own log with the chainsaw instead of imitating his predecessor with a butter knife is not in any way wrong.


Yes. As I said, there was nothing wrong with Elan's jokes, and if he runs into a wizard who appreciates them, he should absolutely go for it.

The only problem was continuing to make someone else the butt of a joke after they clearly didn't find it funny. It doesn't matter what the joke was about.



Personally I don't think Elan ever really planned to take a level in wizard. He wasn't talking about some future opportunity after all, he was talking about the one that they all just dinged up to.

Why wait for however long (I read it coming downstairs the next day while they were eating breakfast, but that's just my reading), find a costume and a fake beard that he knows wizards don't need, pick a new name that he knows wizards don't need (V has never complained about anyone shortening their name), and put on a show instead of just taking the level?

Even if he actually did intend to take the level though, it's separate from his jokes, even though I agree taking the level would be fine in itself too.

[dancrilis]

... instead of just taking the level?

The Giant seems to run on needing the trappings of a different class to adopt it - Belkar couldn't just become a barbarian he had to go to the guild first, Elan couldn't become a Dashing Swordsman he needed to a book (or training or both).

For a wizard at the very least Elan would likely have had to acquire a spell book.

Of course it all depends on how the Giant rules it.

[Good Coyote]

The Giant seems to run on needing the trappings of a different class to adopt it - Belkar couldn't just become a barbarian he had to go to the guild first, Elan couldn't become a Dashing Swordsman he needed to a book (or training or both).

For a wizard at the very least Elan would likely have had to acquire a spell book.

Of course it all depends on how the Giant rules it.

That's a good point. If you're in the "Elan is as intellectually dumb as he ever appears" camp, then he might not know the spellbook is what he needs, and just grab "wizard stuff."

It seemed like he was saying he could take the level and it would be assumed that he already did all that work, looking over V's shoulder. That's already his equivalent of his later training montage. He could be wrong though.

It would be retroactively changing a lot for V too if he went that route, since either he had V's consent or V was careless with their notes, or it's enforced that V knew he was learning and didn't approve and didn't do anything about it the whole time.

Maybe he actually did need V's consent in order to be their pseudoapprentice (like Belkar got guild consent through the arena ritual fight), and that's why he didn't take the level yet, but was being obtuse on what would actually get him that consent.

[danielxcutter]

I think Elan was pretty dumb(and still is), but he also didn't think that much for a while either, or didn't try to.

He's still about as sharp as a sack of wet mice, but he tries. And sometimes that makes all the difference.

[bunsen_h]

I think Elan was pretty dumb(and still is), but he also didn't think that much for a while either, or didn't try to.

Mediocre INT and WIS.


He's still about as sharp as a sack of wet mice, but he tries.

Those things do have teeth, and will use them if given the opportunity. They won't stay in the sack for very long if it's left undisturbed.

EDIT:

That's a good point. If you're in the "Elan is as intellectually dumb as he ever appears" camp, then he might not know the spellbook is what he needs, and just grab "wizard stuff."

To be fair, V's spell books and components have only been visible a couple of times.

[dancrilis]

Those things do have teeth, and will use them if given the opportunity. They won't stay in the sack for very long if it's left undisturbed.

But while they are in the sack the sack probably isn't that sharp.

[Goblin_Priest]

That’s blatantly false
If you were to use a racially pejorative word to someone knowing it was offensive then how can you say you weren’t being offensive and it’s the fault of the person you were abusing for being offended? Seriously?

A reasonable person could expect a racially pejorative word to offend. To knowingly act in a way as to be hurtful is generally wrong.


That's a bit context-dependent, and depends partially on what events follow.

I once saw a woman rough-housing with a young girl. Everything looked like fun and games for both, until the woman picked the girl up to swing her around. The girl freaked out. The woman put her down and asked what was wrong. The girl couldn't talk.

Another person nearby quietly explained to the woman that the girl had been abused by her mother's ex.

The decent thing for the woman to do was to apologize to the girl. "I'm sorry I scared you. I didn't mean to do that."

As opposed to what she actually did, which was to confront the girl. "I didn't hurt you, did I? No? Then you don't have anything to be upset about, do you?"

One of my long-standing regrets is that I didn't think to step in at that point.

Well, to knowingly act in a way as to create discomfort may not be as bad as to knowingly act in a way as to be hurtful, but it's still generally wrong.

And in your example, it's justified to display empathy ("I'm sorry I scared you"), even if it's not really an apology ("I'm sorry I picked you up to swing you around"). Both have their purposes. And it's fine to display empathy for the consequences one's actions, even if said actions aren't inherently wrong. Another example: if there's a contest for, say, a scholarship, and you and your friend worked really hard for it, and you end up winning it yourself. It's fine to express empathy to the friend (though probably a delicate feat to accomplish), even if you didn't do anything wrong by winning it. Negative externalities (such as the friend's loss of the scholarship to you) aren't proof of wrongdoing.

[bunsen_h]

But while they are in the sack the sack probably isn't that sharp.

I'm not willing to try the experiment of stuffing a bunch of mice in a sack and holding my hand against the sack, and not just because it'd be inhumane. I've been bitten by a pet gerbil, just for extending a finger near it so it could get used to my scent. Those things have vicious teeth.


A reasonable person could expect a racially pejorative word to offend. To knowingly act in a way as to be hurtful is generally wrong.

And in cases where such language is blatant, I think it's often appropriate to call out someone for using it, even if one isn't part of the group in question. Not always, but often.

[Goblin_Priest]

And in cases where such language is blatant, I think it's often appropriate to call out someone for using it, even if one isn't part of the group in question. Not always, but often.

While I don't fundamentally disagree with this sentiment, I think there's there a problem around what is actually blatant, and the history of words. A *lot* of words seem to mutate every decade or so, in order to be "more inclusive", "more respectful", "less racist", or things like that. Often, the "target group" doesn't even have issues with the words being used, and it's people from the majority group who are imposing new words for them, deciding for them what words are or aren't acceptable, and banning words that they themselves are using.

There's a distinction to be made between "words that aren't socially accepted among certain circles anymore" and "word that are legitimately hurtful to those they target".

Most of the PC words being used today, stuff like "POC" (people of color) or "marginalized", which are now preferred to other words deemed less appropriate, are probably gonna be in the bin by next decade, replaced by something else.

I think there's a distinction to be made between words that are no longer in favor, and words that were always overtly pejorative/demeaning, but that many people don't make that distinction.

[Peelee]

I'm not willing to try the experiment of stuffing a bunch of mice in a sack and holding my hand against the sack, and not just because it'd be inhumane. I've been bitten by a pet gerbil, just for extending a finger near it so it could get used to my scent. Those things have vicious teeth.

Don't forget the need to repeat it for consistent results. And a control group!

He says to the professor.

[dancrilis]

And a control group!

How would you even do a control group 'sharp as a sack of wet mice' can't really be compared to empty sack nor against unsacked wet mice and a sack of dry mice wouldn't really be the same thing at all.

Would you just choose a random sharp think and see if the sack was sharper or less sharp then it?

[arimareiji]

usually the answer is that the dead are dead. but even dante's inferno had an exit. i think heaven should also have an exit too, but that is another story. but in roy's afterlife, it seemed that they could at least change, though i would say only within their selected afterlive's setting. because they could settle down at the "tavern of unlimited one night stands" until they became bored and decided to move on. that suggest some kind of change. but mostly, i would say that is a lightening, a shedding off, rather than an evolution. other realms with eternal fighting and feasting, i would say that they participate in this endless cycle until one day there is a distraction that catches their attention and they move on.
At least for the tendencies of humans IRL, this sounds about right. (^_~)

Not sure about the Stickverse... Roy's Archon gave me the impression of inevitably getting bored with "perpetual happiness" and moving on to "enlightenment", but I wonder whether they can actually go in two directions: Moving up (enlightenment), or moving on (their "divine spark" gradually dissolving into a perpetual state -- i.e. boredom in the Giant's example of an eternity of LN paperwork, or for others the bliss of something like Negima's Kosmo Entelecheia).


Those things do have teeth, and will use them if given the opportunity. They won't stay in the sack for very long if it's left undisturbed.
Excellent point if we're talking about the biological variety, which is what my favorite uncle's spirit animal* (Foghorn Leghorn) almost certainly meant by the expression. :smallbiggrin:
* - Same Suth'n accent, different set of expressions, but pretty close to the same personality behind them.

And I'd like to join in echoing about rodent teeth. For all that hamsters are some of the gentlest, sweetest animals on earth, you don't want to startle one who's asleep or drowsy if you want to remain unpunctured.

But I think the metaphor works beautifully for Elan if we're talking about the computer variety. (^_~)b

[Peelee]

How would you even do a control group

That's the joke. :smallwink:

[dancrilis]

That's the joke. :smallwink:

Joke, PhD topic, Postdoc paper - tomato tomato.

[arimareiji]

Joke, PhD topic, Postdoc paper - tomato tomato.

Indeed. XD (^_^)b

Piled higher and deeper, as the old joke goes.

[Peelee]

Joke, PhD topic, Postdoc paper - tomato tomato.
What else is academia for?

Indeed. XD (^_^)b

Piled higher and deeper, as the old joke goes.
The person I learned this from was a family friend who had an MD and Ph.D, and married to someone with an MD and Ph.D.

I think she had a grudge against graduate school or something.

[hroþila]

Don't forget the need to repeat it for consistent results. And a control group!

He says to the professor.
This is a good time to mention that Redcloak's control group is my favourite joke in the whole comic.

[dancrilis]

This is a good time to mention that Redcloak's control group is my favourite joke in the whole comic.

For me it is Shojo throwing the dead wizard at Roy - just everything about it from the leadup to the act to the aftermath I think is kindof perfect.

[Rrmcklin]

Which would be fine, if he were still the guy who went drinking with Buggy Lou, but he's not. He's actually trying to get better and change who he was. (It's just a whole lot of ground to get past, considering who he was----and a lot of that is covering the graves of his victims.)

Frankly---and he'd be bored silly if they let him in---he deserves to be in Celestia more than Roy's Dad. (Whose name I hilariously can't remember right now, but i can remember him winning some awards for Best Illusion. Darned if I'll go look it up, though.)

It's an interesting question: in a universe where your deeds dictate where you go when you die, how much should you be judged by what you've done, versus by how much you're currently doing?

I mean, sidestepping Eugene for a moment, this is just kind of ridiculous. Belkar starting to feel kind of bad about who he used to be (but still not actually expressing any remorse for all of his victims or wishing to somehow making things better) hardly "deserves" one of the universe's paradises.

Belkar has made huge steps for Belkar, but that's not confuse that as huge steps period. Doing the bare-minimum of maybe becoming a not-horrible person doesn't deserve a reward.

[bunsen_h]

While I don't fundamentally disagree with this sentiment, I think there's there a problem around what is actually blatant, and the history of words. A *lot* of words seem to mutate every decade or so, in order to be "more inclusive", "more respectful", "less racist", or things like that. Often, the "target group" doesn't even have issues with the words being used, and it's people from the majority group who are imposing new words for them, deciding for them what words are or aren't acceptable, and banning words that they themselves are using.

There's a distinction to be made between "words that aren't socially accepted among certain circles anymore" and "word that are legitimately hurtful to those they target".

Most of the PC words being used today, stuff like "POC" (people of color) or "marginalized", which are now preferred to other words deemed less appropriate, are probably gonna be in the bin by next decade, replaced by something else.

I think there's a distinction to be made between words that are no longer in favor, and words that were always overtly pejorative/demeaning, but that many people don't make that distinction.

Bloom County had a dry comment on this subject (https://www.gocomics.com/bloomcounty/1988/08/28). Though I don't agree that the process is primarily driven by the majority group, with the minority group not having a problem with the words.

The process is weird. There are words that are later claimed, or reclaimed, by members of group X, and are okay for them to use, and non-X people might be okay with using them if it's clear that it's meant in a non-insulting way -- sort of a pseudo-in-group thing. There are others that non-X people pretty much can't use at all. Which gets weird in a context like an on-line forum where it may not be clear if a person is or is not part of group X. A few weeks ago, I saw a Black guy chatting on his phone with someone about a nearby parked car: "Some n****r left his lights on!" When it was clear that he didn't know the race of the person, and he was using the word in a not-horribly-offensive-but-still-negative way.


What else is academia for?

The person I learned this from was a family friend who had an MD and Ph.D, and married to someone with an MD and Ph.D.

I think she had a grudge against graduate school or something.

There's a Heinlein story, "By His Bootstraps", which begins with a guy who's working on writing up his graduate thesis. He's at the point of no longer caring much if it's valid. I've seen criticism of that, on the grounds of it being unrealistic. It always seemed realistic to me.

[Dion]

Doing the bare-minimum of maybe becoming a not-horrible person doesn't deserve a reward.

But he’s also done the bare minimum of maybe becoming a not horrible tracker.

Those two things together should get him into celestial, easy.

[Goblin_Priest]

Bloom County had a dry comment on this subject (https://www.gocomics.com/bloomcounty/1988/08/28). Though I don't agree that the process is primarily driven by the majority group, with the minority group not having a problem with the words.

The process is weird. There are words that are later claimed, or reclaimed, by members of group X, and are okay for them to use, and non-X people might be okay with using them if it's clear that it's meant in a non-insulting way -- sort of a pseudo-in-group thing. There are others that non-X people pretty much can't use at all. Which gets weird in a context like an on-line forum where it may not be clear if a person is or is not part of group X. A few weeks ago, I saw a Black guy chatting on his phone with someone about a nearby parked car: "Some n****r left his lights on!" When it was clear that he didn't know the race of the person, and he was using the word in a not-horribly-offensive-but-still-negative way.

Pretty much. Of all the words used to describe "people of color", some were inherently pejorative, but I think most were inherently neutral, but just got tied up with the stigma attached to the target group, that they became eventually bad themselves. The process applies to other things as well, not just a race thing.

I'm wary of giving any actual examples, though, because of how unclear the line is concerning the rules of what can or can't be discussed.

The fact that, for many terms, the groups in question often use the oldest ("most vulgar/pejorative") term is suggestive that it's the majority group that's evolving around them.

With native Americans, for example, well we've come to have a lot of terms to describe them. In some cases, we've been brought up to consider really offensive the terms they themselves favor. In other cases, they have themselves requested that some other terms be dropped in favor of terms more to their liking.

None of this is probably very clear, though. I don't really agree with these rules, but I try to follow them. Probably should just move on to another topic now.

[Good Coyote]

If Belkar gets into any heaven, I predict it will be a Lawful one because it would require an Atonement and his cleric buddies are LG.

[Devils_Advocate]

Goblin_Priest, I do not think that the word "inherently" means what you think it means.


An inherently offensive statement is offensive to a reasonable person (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person), not merely for being offensive to a single person.
I find myself less than convinced that the state of an actual person matters less than the hypothetical response of some vaguely-defined idealized entity.


To censor speech based on the most easily offended people to roam the earth is a path to folly, because some people get worked up for the most ridiculous of things.
I don't think that speech should be censored based on offense at all.

If, for example, someone encourages the unfair persecution of some group, then the problem of note is presumably that that speech might lead to unfair persecution, whether anyone "is offended" or not. But if the only issue with something is that someone is offended... well, first of all, we should consider how anyone offended feels about being offended. If someone wants to be offended, then no problem, right? And in the case where the only problem is that someone who wants not to be offended is offended... well, the problem is with the offended individual's response. And if someone disliking some form of speech is considered sufficient justification to remove that speech from public discourse, that's obviously tantamount to having no protections on speech at all (because obviously no one will try to ban speech that everyone is fine with). Even removing a form of speech from public discourse strictly for being highly unpopular seems like it might be a really, really bad idea? Like, maybe sometimes the popular consensus is bad and should be changed, and we shouldn't put measures in place to prevent that from happening?


It needs a basis, logic, in which it yields offense.Possilby what you mean by this -- or the practical upshot of what you mean -- is that "a reasonable person" is only offended by things that are bad in ways other than "being offensive". But that turns "We should only censor that which would offend a reasonable person" into a convoluted way of saying "We should only censor things based on reasons other than offense", or in other words "We shouldn't censor anything based on offense". In which case, why on Earth not just say that clearly?! Phrasing that as censorship being acceptable based on whether something would offend anyone -- especially a theoretical idealized entity -- seems almost like deliberately obscuring the actual standard behind phrasing that superficially seems like the opposite.


One can be held to account with uttering things than a reasonable person could find offensive. But if one offends another by triggering an unknowable personality flaw or quirk, then one cannot be said to have dome something wrong, for the consequences of his actions were unforeseeable.
Whether one knows whether someone would take offense at something and whether "a reasonable person" could be offended by something seem like separate issues to me. It's entirely possible to be aware of someone's distinguishing personality flaw or quirk, and it's possible not to know "what would offend a reasonable person". Indeed, I barely understand the concept myself. (I'm not convinced that it's even particularly coherent.) I don't see why I should especially try to. I care a lot more about the actual consequences of my actions than I do about the hypothetical consequences of those actions in a hypothetical scenario. So if I'm talking to "an unreasonable person", that's whose sensibilities I'm going to try to take into account. That... seems really obviously like the sensible (one might even say reasonable) thing to do, even from an entirely sociopathic standpoint?

If what you're getting at is that we shouldn't fault people for things done accidentally, especially when they did their best to act with care, then I can agree with that. But again I find myself of the opinion that you should just say that clearly, and that this "reasonable person" nonsense seems like a distraction.

[tanonx]

Elan could learn the same lesson about what he wants in life, by thinking about what kind of priorities you need to have in life, in order to stick with a ship that will only ever let you barely succeed (but guarantee at least the partial success of showing up in time, and maximum drama), at the expense of people you care about being guaranteed to experience lesser pain while they wait for you.

You know... it's probably not the intended purpose, but maybe that's why Julio's not remotely close to anyone who isn't already on the Mechane. It could be a potent tool to reach people in peril who you'd otherwise never get to in time. If you don't have any existing relationships to choose from... well, it has to arrive in the nick of time for something. If there's someone out there nobody else can help, then their tormentors may well hear the Mechane's fearsome rotors overhead at the worst possible time. After all, there's not a lot of roaming heroes out in the Empire of Blood these days.

Might also explain why he's not handing it off to Elan, despite placing it at his disposal. Too many loved ones.

[Ruck]

Whether one knows whether someone would take offense at something and whether "a reasonable person" could be offended by something seem like separate issues to me. It's entirely possible to be aware of someone's distinguishing personality flaw or quirk, and it's possible not to know "what would offend a reasonable person". Indeed, I barely understand the concept myself. (I'm not convinced that it's even particularly coherent.)

I've often found that a speaker's use of "reasonable person" means "person who agrees with me."

[Anitar]

I've often found that a speaker's use of "reasonable person" means "person who agrees with me."

Most people think that they themselves are reasonable, so that kind of conflation makes total sense.

[arimareiji]

There's a Heinlein story, "By His Bootstraps", which begins with a guy who's working on writing up his graduate thesis. He's at the point of no longer caring much if it's valid. I've seen criticism of that, on the grounds of it being unrealistic. It always seemed realistic to me.
One of my good friends in grad school had to bite her tongue about the fact that the "star" doctoral candidate of the lab she was working in, routinely cooked data. Our society tends to treat whistleblowers worse than the blowees, and science misconduct isn't an exception.


Goblin_Priest, I do not think that the word "inherently" means what you think it means.

I find myself less than convinced that the state of an actual person matters less than the hypothetical response of some vaguely-defined idealized entity.
My roommate / close friend in college and I would constantly call each other "dumba**" with affectionate sentiment.
Someone who's been trapped in retail long enough can tell you to "Have a nice day, sir" with enough vitriol to dissolve a shipping container.


I don't think that speech should be censored based on offense at all.
Imo, a censure >> a censor.

Censoring offensive words, as with any other form of coercion, requires an extremely high bar to to justify.
Wrt censuring their use, if someone acts like a boor then people have every right to view them with disdain and express it. People generally aren't keen on obeying Because I Said So, but are keen on having others' approval.

But perhaps more to the point, it's ultimately futile because if someone wants to act like a boor there are a million ways to do it. If you ban a specific way, expect them to invent a few new ones. The issue that has to be addressed is their motivation to be a boor.


I've often found that a speaker's use of "reasonable person" means "person who agrees with me."
When it comes to reasons to feel good about ourselves, humans are creatures with an exceptional talent for externalized mental pseudo-rumination (http://www.therabbithouse.com/diet/rabbit-digestive-system.asp). Take of that what you will. (^_~)

[Goblin_Priest]

If Belkar gets into any heaven, I predict it will be a Lawful one because it would require an Atonement and his cleric buddies are LG.

Atonement is one of the most gimmicky spells there is. I seriously doubt that Rich will ever bring it up.


I've often found that a speaker's use of "reasonable person" means "person who agrees with me."

How does the saying go, again? "The problem with common sense is that everyone thinks they have it, even those that don't", or something along those lines. I won't disagree with you that just about everyone considers themselves reasonable, and thus there are challenges inherent to defining what a "reasonable person" is, but I don't think that voids the concept of all purpose.


Goblin_Priest, I do not think that the word "inherently" means what you think it means.

It looks to me like you are assuming I can't express properly, and then assuming I am implying things that my words have not, based on the incorrect definitions of said words you assume I have.

Inherently, as in, "in and of itself". As in, "a fundamental and immutable aspect of". Speech, for example, can sometimes be wrong, without being inherently wrong. Some words, in the same way, can yield offense, without offense being a fundamental aspect of that word. Because there's a difference between a "word whose purpose is to offend", and a "word that some person happens to dislike". Like, if you start naming "cyan" in the colors of the rainbow, I'll be upset, even though the word "cyan" is not inherently upsetting.


I don't think that speech should be censored based on offense at all.

If, for example, someone encourages the unfair persecution of some group, then the problem of note is presumably that that speech might lead to unfair persecution, whether anyone "is offended" or not. But if the only issue with something is that someone is offended... well, first of all, we should consider how anyone offended feels about being offended. If someone wants to be offended, then no problem, right? And in the case where the only problem is that someone who wants not to be offended is offended... well, the problem is with the offended individual's response. And if someone disliking some form of speech is considered sufficient justification to remove that speech from public discourse, that's obviously tantamount to having no protections on speech at all (because obviously no one will try to ban speech that everyone is fine with). Even removing a form of speech from public discourse strictly for being highly unpopular seems like it might be a really, really bad idea? Like, maybe sometimes the popular consensus is bad and should be changed, and we shouldn't put measures in place to prevent that from happening?

Possilby what you mean by this -- or the practical upshot of what you mean -- is that "a reasonable person" is only offended by things that are bad in ways other than "being offensive". But that turns "We should only censor that which would offend a reasonable person" into a convoluted way of saying "We should only censor things based on reasons other than offense", or in other words "We shouldn't censor anything based on offense". In which case, why on Earth not just say that clearly?! Phrasing that as censorship being acceptable based on whether something would offend anyone -- especially a theoretical idealized entity -- seems almost like deliberately obscuring the actual standard behind phrasing that superficially seems like the opposite.

As above, I think you are inferring/projecting quite a bit too much. I didn't promote censorship anywhere. I did say some things could be wrong, but not all things that are wrong should be disallowed.


Whether one knows whether someone would take offense at something and whether "a reasonable person" could be offended by something seem like separate issues to me. It's entirely possible to be aware of someone's distinguishing personality flaw or quirk, and it's possible not to know "what would offend a reasonable person". Indeed, I barely understand the concept myself. (I'm not convinced that it's even particularly coherent.) I don't see why I should especially try to. I care a lot more about the actual consequences of my actions than I do about the hypothetical consequences of those actions in a hypothetical scenario. So if I'm talking to "an unreasonable person", that's whose sensibilities I'm going to try to take into account. That... seems really obviously like the sensible (one might even say reasonable) thing to do, even from an entirely sociopathic standpoint?

If what you're getting at is that we shouldn't fault people for things done accidentally, especially when they did their best to act with care, then I can agree with that. But again I find myself of the opinion that you should just say that clearly, and that this "reasonable person" nonsense seems like a distraction.

Here you ignore my arguments about reasonably foreseeable consequences. To simplify my thoughts on the matter, and to use the example on hand:

Elan makes comments which would not be offensive to an ordinary reasonable person.
V is not reasonable, and takes offense.
Elan did not and could not know V would react in such an unreasonable way.
Elan's comments were there neither wrong nor offensive, even if V took offense at them.
Thus, Elan doesn't owe V an apology, though that doesn't preclude him from displaying empathy ("I'm sorry I upset you").

Now, if Elan was to say the same things again today.

Elan could and should know that V would likely react in such an unreasonable way.
Elan would be willfully causing offense, and thus what he says would be wrong, even if it would still not be inherently offensive.
Thus, Elan could be expected to owe V an apology.

Because the first time he said those things, he couldn't have been expected to know the offense it would cause. And in the second case, he could have predicted it. And offensing your friends for no other purpose but to make them feel bad is wrong.

However, this should not be construed as an argument that goes along the lines of "thus Elan should be prohibited from saying these same things again" or "Elan should be punished for saying these same things again". Just because free speech is an important fundamental right, doesn't mean that it's every use is righteous. I think it important that Elan be able to repeat those same jokes if he wills it, but that'd kinda make him a jerk, even if I think V should just grow the hell up and not be so fragile about it. It should also not be interpreted in a way that would suggest that knowingly saying something that will cause offense is always wrong, because justification is possible, but in this case, I can't really imagine what justification there could be to make your friend feel like crap about his life choices for a laugh like this.

[Good Coyote]

Atonement is one of the most gimmicky spells there is. I seriously doubt that Rich will ever bring it up.

I think it's about as unlikely to be used in this way as that Belkar will get into heaven, but he did already bring it up with Miko.

[Fyraltari]

Atonement is one of the most gimmicky spells there is. I seriously doubt that Rich will ever bring it up.


Does Panel 14 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) count?

[Skull the Troll]

The difference between intentionally causing offence and unintentionally causing offence is in what happens afterword's, not in what happens before. If you have unintentionally caused offence, you apologize and don't do it again.

[mjasghar]

The difference between intentionally causing offence and unintentionally causing offence is in what happens afterword's, not in what happens before. If you have unintentionally caused offence, you apologize and don't do it again.
Indeed
Which is very different from saying offence is never given only taken.
Furthermore reducing such arguments to dry philosophy is very easy for those who know they will rarely if ever be on the receiving end of abusive terms. In practice such terms are routinely used for intimidation in order to create de facto segregation. One example is the use of ‘boy’ to refer to non-white adults as a reference to how it was used to perpetuate the concept that they were children who couldn’t be trusted to look after themselves.
Very easy to talk about airy fairy ideas of freedom of speech when you are in a privileged class.
Doesn’t mean it can't be used in humour though - like the C word joke in Zootropolis 🤣

[dancrilis]

Which is very different from saying offence is never given only taken.

If someone tries to give offence - and nobody takes any offence, then no offence was given.

Not sure if you disagree with that or not.

[arimareiji]

The difference between intentionally causing offence and unintentionally causing offence is in what happens afterword's, not in what happens before. If you have unintentionally caused offence, you apologize and don't do it again.
Like most human behavior, "Do they keep doing it?" is indeed an excellent basis to guess whether someone did or didn't intend to be offensive. Maybe our best basis. But technically this wording indicates that someone who intentionally calls their boss a $!@$ #$!%!# !#$%@#$% @#$!#%!#!@$ and poops on their desk on their last day (since they know they'll never see them again), "apologizes" after realizing they haven't gotten their last check yet, then exits stage right and never returns didn't intend to be offensive.

That's the funny thing about it, we never really do know for sure whether Jane was deliberately being offensive or Joe was deliberately looking for offense where none was intended. We can only make our best guess. Heck... given our capacity for rationalization, often we even fool ourselves about our intentions.

We can always make good guesses. But imo, thinking we "know" others' intentions and that we (or someone we include in our circles of self) must have been in the right about giving/taking offense is very treacherous ground.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Doing the bare-minimum of maybe becoming a not-horrible person doesn't deserve a reward.You're entitled to your personal definition of "deserve", but if the goal of the rewards is to produce good people that is a wonderful occasion to give a reward.

You reward what you want to encourage. A terrible person like Belkar acting like a mediocre person is a special thing that should be encouraged.

[Fyraltari]

You're entitled to your personal definition of "deserve", but if the goal of the rewards is to produce good people that is a wonderful occasion to give a reward.

You reward what you want to encourage. A terrible person like Belkar acting like a mediocre person is a special thing that should be encouraged.

Is ot though? Because this looks like a perverse incentive: "feel free to act as montruous as you feel like, as long as you act a little contrite later in life you can get to paradise easy-peasy!"

This kind of **** is why fiction shouldn't portray afterlives (or at least afterlives that are supposed to pass omniscient judgement on the moral character of the dead) it's always more trouble than it's worth.

[Goblin_Priest]

Does Panel 14 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) count?

Not in the way I had in mind. The spell was mentioned, yes, but it wasn't actually used, much less as a plot device for character growth for one of the main characters.

Some NPC telling another NPC "maybe you can get an Atonement for this one misdeed", with the offer rejected, is far from "and Belkar got a a level 5 spell cast on him and he's now redeemed as a good character".

I mean, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the spell will be taken out, for whatever reason, after Belkar has sufficiently redeemed himself through normal means. But Rich just going "here y'all, he got Atonement, he's LG now!", I seriously doubt.

[bunsen_h]

You're entitled to your personal definition of "deserve", but if the goal of the rewards is to produce good people that is a wonderful occasion to give a reward.

You reward what you want to encourage. A terrible person like Belkar acting like a mediocre person is a special thing that should be encouraged.

Looking at Roy's review, the episode of him abandoning Elan would have been enough to get him chucked into the True Neutral bin (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html) if he hadn't gone back to fix things. His ongoing association with Belkar is considered problematic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) and he had to do a bit of fast talking to avoid the black mark. His tendency to use Chaotic means to achieve Lawful ends (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) strikes the deva as being fairly neutral, and she'd have dropped him into the LG bucket except that he kept trying.

Now consider the parallel discussion for Belkar if he dies by committing an act of pure goodness.

That might enough to disqualify him for CE and he didn't go back to "fix things" by being evil afterwards. He's got the long-term association with LG Roy and Durkon on his record, and that would be an item of concern; there's not much evidence that he was pulling them to the Dark Side, rather the contrary. And it appears that he hasn't "kept trying" to be CE for a little while now.

If the same kind of "do you meet our standards" apply for the CE afterlife review as for the LG review, my guess is that Belkar's file would be handed over to the True Neutral people.

EDIT:

Not in the way I had in mind. The spell was mentioned, yes, but it wasn't actually used, much less as a plot device for character growth for one of the main characters.

Some NPC telling another NPC "maybe you can get an Atonement for this one misdeed", with the offer rejected, is far from "and Belkar got a a level 5 spell cast on him and he's now redeemed as a good character".

I mean, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the spell will be taken out, for whatever reason, after Belkar has sufficiently redeemed himself through normal means. But Rich just going "here y'all, he got Atonement, he's LG now!", I seriously doubt.

I don't think that's what Atonement is for. It's for restoring one's status in one's original alignment, not to change to a Good alignment. By CE standards, Belkar has been screwing up for some time now, but Atonement would help him repair the damage to his character and return to being properly CE.

EDIT 2: No, never mind. I just checked the 3.5 spell description; I was working from my experience with the original AD&D version, and it's changed.

[danielxcutter]

I think there's a good chance that Belkar's at least going to avoid going to a Lower Plane, or at least one of the crappier ones. Maybe Limbo or Pandemonium. Arcadia or Ysgard is probably a bit hard, though.

[JackJin]

Did I enjoy this whole conversation and reflection of Elan's behaviour and the party's mistreatment both being past problems and how the group has evolved? Greatly.

Do I hope Belkar gets a conversation similar? Yes. Do I expect it'll happen? ...Sadly not.

I'd love to have a bit of self-reflection in Roy and the others realizing they've distrusted and outright wanted Belkar dead (Haley and Roy at the least, given him dying instantly was a fantasy for them back in Draketooth's illusion) for longer than he's been trying to fake being/genuinely has been getting good. Belkar's Evolve Or Die moment was in strip 610, just over halfway back through the comic up to this point. Considering we've still got an arc/maybe epilogue to go through, Belkar will have been trying to be a good asset to the team for a majority of the comic run... But Roy, hell near everyone but Durkon still treats Belkar like he's the same murderhobo who felt like stabbing Elan for XP back in the day, outright disbelieving him even capable of doing good if only for the party.

We the audience have understanding the party doesn't, sure, but if Belkar's going to be dead for good in less than a month (and god do I wish that prophecy could be overturned,) I really do hope we get to see a point Belkar is acknowledged as part of the team... Instead of a liability they'll be dancing on the grave of.

[Peelee]

Did I enjoy this whole conversation and reflection of Elan's behaviour and the party's mistreatment both being past problems and how the group has evolved? Greatly.

Do I hope Belkar gets a conversation similar? Yes. Do I expect it'll happen? ...Sadly not.

I'd love to have a bit of self-reflection in Roy and the others realizing they've distrusted and outright wanted Belkar dead (Haley and Roy at the least, given him dying instantly was a fantasy for them back in Draketooth's illusion) for longer than he's been trying to fake being/genuinely has been getting good. Belkar's Evolve Or Die moment was in strip 610, just over halfway back through the comic up to this point. Considering we've still got an arc/maybe epilogue to go through, Belkar will have been trying to be a good asset to the team for a majority of the comic run... But Roy, hell near everyone but Durkon still treats Belkar like he's the same murderhobo who felt like stabbing Elan for XP back in the day, outright disbelieving him even capable of doing good if only for the party.

We the audience have understanding the party doesn't, sure, but if Belkar's going to be dead for good in less than a month (and god do I wish that prophecy could be overturned,) I really do hope we get to see a point Belkar is acknowledged as part of the team... Instead of a liability they'll be dancing on the grave of.

As much as I like how Belkar is actually making an effort to be better, at the same time I have to note that I like how the party is still reacting that way to him, because really, they should. Actions have consequences. Belkar is lying in a bed of his own making. He has to earn being treated differently, and he hasn't yet.

[Mike Havran]

We the audience have understanding the party doesn't, sure, but if Belkar's going to be dead for good in less than a month (and god do I wish that prophecy could be overturned,) I really do hope we get to see a point Belkar is acknowledged as part of the team... Instead of a liability they'll be dancing on the grave of. Belkar has been already acknowledged (and even defended) as a part of the team as far as #285, almost 950 strips ago. Acknowledging his limited advance from murderhobo would be akin to buying sweets for a spoiled child just because it stopped its temper tantrum for the time being.

[arimareiji]

EDIT 2: No, never mind. I just checked the 3.5 spell description; I was working from my experience with the original AD&D version, and it's changed.
I'm glad you checked and then said this, I thought the same and would have never looked otherwise.

I initially thought of Atonement as being just a snarky way for people to say they don't buy Belkar's character development, and that the spell would never happen... but thinking more about it, I can't exclude the possibility it'll come into play (although maybe not explicitly). Crazy as it sounds.

1) I thought Minrah was just in the story to be "someone who grieves for Belkar", but... remember her convo with Thor? "Oh, before I forget. That thing you've been worried about for a while that you'd rather I not say out loud in front of Durkon. Cool with me. You do you, kid." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1135.html) A couple of possibilities come to mind, both relevant and neither excluding the other:
a) "I'm chaotic in a so-lawful-entire-trees-grow-up-their-butts society." (That fits better with "you've been worried about for a while", but it doesn't make much sense why she'd worry about Thor's perspective... unless her society has her believing Thor is actually LG, which my life experience suggests is plausible).
b) "I think I'm falling in love with Belkar."

2) The "Redemption/Temptation" aspect of Atonement says it can be used as flavor for a rapid alignment change, to the cleric's own alignment. She has been talking a lot with Belkar, and he's been listening closely. He may even be starting to reciprocate those feelings, whether he admits it to himself or not -- did he really sit through a long-into-the-night Elan recap to Minrah (that he had already experienced), just to make sure he wasn't missing any details?

3) No one would buy Belkar as LG, and it seems more like a reductio ad absurdum argument that he can't change. He's about as lawful as a fractal. But if Minrah is CG, which fits the little we know about her (or CN, but I don't think that's likely)... the power of love does really weird things to people. And iirc, hasn't she cast a 5th-level spell?

4) Remember Belkar's paradise in the pyramid, which Roy mocked with "I'm sure it involved a lot of stabbing, and whores, and whores stabbing whores who stab whores. But keep it to yourself." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html)? Belkar played along with an uncomfortable expression, saying "Heh heh, yeah. I mean, it was MY dream, after all." But it was actually him as Shojo's chef, alongside a purring Mr. Scruffy. And afawk, Shojo is currently "sipping single-malt scotch and smoking cigars rolled from poorly-worded legal documents".


As much as I like how Belkar is actually making an effort to be better, at the same time I have to note that I like how the party is still reacting that way to him, because really, they should. Actions have consequences. Belkar is lying in a bed of his own making. He has to earn being treated differently, and he hasn't yet.
As much as I'm a sucker for redemption stories*, I agree completely. But I get the feeling his redemption will come after all... through actively choosing to save the world at the cost of his permanent death, if not being unmade out of existence.
* - I blame anime, with its wacky notions of "People are rarely evil just for funsies, and often it boils down to horrible misunderstandings that can be resolved".

[dancrilis]

In fairness to Belkar being treated better by the other members of the Order.
Vaarsuvius spent the time to give him a better dagger (panel 5 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html)), I think they might not have done it in earlier strips, also they were content to allow him the use of there dominated kobold as a favour.
Roy was comfortable drinking with him and having an actual conversation - whole strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1182.html), and further noted that he was trying 'a thing' panel 7 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1191.html), and implies that he doesn't think Belkar is an untrustworthy jerk anymore (panel 5 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html)).
Haley meanwhile has indicated that he 'employee of the month' panel 8 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) and while at the time she thought it was a ploy (and it kindof was) she may have learned to be less paranoid in the intervening time such as when she might have implyed that he was useful (panel 9 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0838.html)).


So I do think that they see a change and they like the change - but seeing a change and liking a change only goes so far so quickly.

[Good Coyote]

cut for length

Personally I do buy Belkar's character development, I just don't think he can make it to actual heaven (a Good afterlife) under his own steam. He's got a wide, wide possibility of points on the Neutral spectrum to chug his way past first, and frankly, he doesn't have the time.

Thinking about this idea though... if it was going to happen, I suppose it actually could be a commentary on the need for humility, asking for help, living in a society, etc

I checked Minrah's alignment on the wiki before I made the post because I thought she was NG at first, but the wiki said LG and I didn't look too closely... citation needed, it seems. And that would be a very good explanation for that line with Thor. And if it's being used as a metaphor, it would make more sense that Belkar keeps his place as Chaotic since there's no... important life lesson to be learned about having to embrace Lawfulness because all of your cleric friends are Lawful.

Don't think there's any particular sign that Minrah is in love with Belkar though... or him with her. I think his sidechat with her was pretty comparable to learning about "extreme apologies" from Durkon. It does seem significant that he keeps having these chats with clerics, but to me, more for the sake of those characters showing off what clerics are about (like O-chul being an exemplary paladin). (In fact, if the story does go that route, then the framing would probably make an Atonement in part about how it's the responsibility and gift of clerics to be able to cast it.)

Belkar's dream in the pyramid wasn't really a paradise as such though. He didn't die first in his own experience, so it wasn't his in-dream afterlife. And we know that Roy's afterlife didn't particularly closely resemble what he saw in the pyramid. It does demonstrate that he can be content while not stabbing anybody, but that's all I can think of.

[bunsen_h]

EDIT 2: No, never mind. I just checked the 3.5 spell description; I was working from my experience with the original AD&D version, and it's changed.


I'm glad you checked and then said this, I thought the same and would have never looked otherwise.

It appears that Atonement was small-n neutral with regard to alignment into 2nd Edition (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Atonement), and was changed for 3rd (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Atonement) to be only about getting back to Goodness.

[MultitudeMan]

I know this is a tangent from the current discussion, but does anyone else wonder if the Giant is speaking through Elan, to some extent, in panel 9? He's on record as saying he feels bad about this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html), and the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity plotline, but I don't know that he's acknowledged this in the strip itself.

OOTS did start as just a dungeon crawl making fun of D&D tropes and bizarre rules-derived situations, but I think we all agree it's become much more than that now. Perhaps Rich feels he has had some character development himself in the process?

[bunsen_h]

It appears that Atonement was small-n neutral with regard to alignment into 2nd Edition (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Atonement), and was changed for 3rd (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Atonement) to be only about getting back to Goodness.

Oops again. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) "Though the spell description refers to evil acts, atonement can also be used on any creature that has performed acts against its alignment, whether those acts are evil, good, chaotic, or lawful." That's as of 3.5 but not 3e.

[Good Coyote]

It appears that Atonement was small-n neutral with regard to alignment into 2nd Edition (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Atonement), and was changed for 3rd (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Atonement) to be only about getting back to Goodness.

The initial description does mention evil deeds, but further down:


Redemption or Temptation: The character may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match the character's. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or changes to the character's alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders (or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally).

edit: oop, ninja'ed

[Fyraltari]

b) "I think I'm falling in love with Belkar."

First, ewwwwwwww.

Second, the conversation implies that Thor knows about whatever it is because she had prayed to him for guidance over it, which isn't possible for that possibility.

Third, ewwwwwww.

Fourth, given how little she knows of Belkar why would she assume Thor wouldn't be okay with it?

Fifth, ew, ew, ew.

[Good Coyote]

Thinking about it, I think there's also a strong narrative reason that love shouldn't be involved with Minrah and Belkar, whether she Redeems him or not.

Even if you like "redemption via love" narratives generally, it would risk reinforcing V's theory that Belkar operates on "either I want to kill or I'm attracted" dichotomy. She represents people who don't have any reason to think of Belkar as a murder gremlin, so that needs to be important to him for reasons entirely unrelated to attraction. It's possible for it to be important for both, but it might confuse the issue.

[bunsen_h]

The initial description does mention evil deeds, but further down:

edit: oop, ninja'ed

That would still work for changing within the Chaotic-to-Lawful spectrum within Good.

I'm imagining a little "chat" between the Chief Druid and Tree-Hugger Bob. "Bob, I see you've been hugging lots of bears and bunnies. That's nice. I like to see that. But when it comes to people, you've been way too Good. Some might even say Lawful. So what you're gonna do is, you're going to go into the city and, I dunno, throw paint on old ladies wearing fur coats and stuff. Then you come back here and we'll do the Atonement thing. You got that, Bob? You got 48 hours, or BAM, no more druid powers."

[Good Coyote]

That would still work for changing within the Chaotic-to-Lawful spectrum within Good.

I'm imagining a little "chat" between the Chief Druid and Tree-Hugger Bob. "Bob, I see you've been hugging lots of bears and bunnies. That's nice. I like to see that. But when it comes to people, you've been way too Good. Some might even say Lawful. So what you're gonna do is, you're going to go into the city and, I dunno, throw paint on old ladies wearing fur coats and stuff. Then you come back here and we'll do the Atonement thing. You got that, Bob? You got 48 hours, or BAM, no more druid powers."

"Now I will cast Redemption on you to restore you to Lawfulness."

"Isn't it a little... judgmental to decide that Lawful gets the Redemptive branch? Doesn't that imply Chaos is Evil, and the reverse would be Temptation? But it's not, it's an entirely different axi-"

"I'm beginning to doubt your sincere desire to set aside your Chaotic ways."

[dancrilis]

Fourth, given how little she knows of Belkar why would she assume Thor wouldn't be okay with it?


It is possible that halflings are regarded as foul creatures - if we examine the ones we have Hank (a member of a thieves guild), Belkar (convicted of manslaughter), Serini (a paladin capturer who associates with monsters), and the high priests of Balder and Loki, who ostracise members of their own communities based on physical characteristics (Belkar being small, Serini looking a bit trollish - which might be a the influnce of the cult of Balder I suppose).

Under that it is possible that people are dubious about halflings in general - we know that the gladiators had stories about what other halflings had done to people - and so Minrah would not think Thor would be ok with it.

Of course much more likely Belkar and Minrah have no romantic connection.

[Cazero]

First, ewwwwwwww.

Third, ewwwwwww.

Fifth, ew, ew, ew.
You think Belkar has cooties?

[Mike Havran]

It is possible that halflings are regarded as foul creatures - if we examine the ones we have Hank (a member of a thieves guild), Belkar (convicted of manslaughter), Serini (a paladin capturer who associates with monsters), and the high priests of Balder and Loki, who ostracise members of their own communities based on physical characteristics (Belkar being small, Serini looking a bit trollish - which might be a the influnce of the cult of Balder I suppose).

Under that it is possible that people are dubious about halflings in general - we know that the gladiators had stories about what other halflings had done to people - and so Minrah would not think Thor would be ok with it.Given that halfling lands have names like Gentleville, Cuddlytown and Happy River, it would be extremely disquieting if the majority of them were foul creatures instead of extraordinarily decent persons.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Is ot though? Because this looks like a perverse incentive: "feel free to act as montruous as you feel like, as long as you act a little contrite later in life you can get to paradise easy-peasy!"Well in the case of fantasy, afterlife judgement depends heavily on the ability to perfectly tell if the supplicant is sincere or not. If one manages to live their life according to that plan the judge could evaluate it as one atomic whole action and not a change of behavior.

My evaluation of Belkar is that he is neither completely sincere or insincere his repentance. What I would most like to see as his afterlife would be to be sentenced to serve redemptive labor alongside Miko.

In the real world, I wouldn't say someone like Belkar deserves to be treated with equality to someone who was always good. But some small rewards are in order, like treating him as if he was a member of society while the issue of his crimes aren't directly relevant.

[dancrilis]

Given that halfling lands have names like Gentleville, Cuddlytown and Happy River, it would be extremely disquieting if the majority of them were foul creatures instead of extraordinarily decent persons.

There are no halfling lands (panel 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html)).

[Good Coyote]

There are no halfling lands (panel 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html)).

"There are no halfling lands here," (emphasis added). I take that to mean there are none on the continent.

[Cazero]

There are no halfling lands (panel 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html)).No halfling lands here [on the Western continent]. Implying there are halfling lands elsewhere.
edit : slingshoter'ed.

[dancrilis]

"There are no halfling lands here," (emphasis added). I take that to mean there are none on the continent.

That is fair - not how I read it but might be a more logical reading.

[Metastachydium]

Given that halfling lands have names like Gentleville, Cuddlytown and Happy River, it would be extremely disquieting if the majority of them were foul creatures instead of extraordinarily decent persons.

At any rate, they are supposed to be jolly (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html). (Also, apparently they don't normally keep stabbing people again and again.)