Prophecies, Twists, and Predictions

[Thecommander236]

Whelp, if seems like it's almost time for Belkar to meet his fate. Something has bothered me about it for a long time, though, and I think us speculating about it isn't a big deal as The Giant won't change what's going to happen. Back when Draketooth's major illusion caught Roy and the others in its spell, Roy was utterly dismissive at Belkar's funeral. That's clearly a setup for Roy to feel terrible about it if or when Belkar does die.

So how's it going to happen? Is Belkar going to get killed by Team Evil, Serini, or the Snarl? Or is there another party that's going to get involved? Of the Linear Guild, Sabine, Pompey, Leeky Windstaff, and perhaps Thog are sit on the table. Zz'dtri's body could be recovered and him raised. We also have an unfired Chekhov's gun in Redcloak's family. Right-eye smuggled his daughter away from Team Evil in the prequel books so Redcloak's niece can pop up.

As for Belkar, he could be mind wiped and take on a new name, could turn undead, could be killed and raised, or polymorphed into a fish to live on the planet within the planet (technically fish don't breath like land animals and its hard to claim insurance on a disappearance). See I don't see Roy just being cool with Belkar being dead now and Belkar's illusionary dream in Draketooth's Dungeon was getting to go to the Chaotic Good afterlife and chilling with Lord Shojo and he's not there yet. Not good enough yet. It could just be his tragic, impossible dream, and him being killed the Snarl would an already impossible task firmly in the "not happening" category.

Hell, only Elan's prediction from the Oracle was that "happy ending, at least for you anyways". That could mean that everyone but Elan and, probably, Haley could all be doomed to die to let Elan live happily ever after. However, him being the sole survivor doesn't seem very happy to me. To me anyways, I don't think the Giant would back himself into corner with Belkar's prophecy. He had the Oracle give the prophecy twice. Whatever the Giant has planned, it's been in the works for a long, long time so either the Twist was always going to go about the same way or played straight really hard like unambiguous, Belkar's dead, there's nothing anyone could ever do about it hard. As in "not even True Resurrection can save him" hard.

So what do you guys think. Is Redcloak's niece about to pop out? Is Belmar going to be straight up murdered? What about all the sides that the Demon roaches predicted? How many of them are still in play and which on the one is going to do the deed to Belkar? I think the roaches said there were at least 9 sides, but there could be more. We have Team Evil, IFCC, Serini, Order of the Stick, the Linear Guild (if they aren't counted as part of IFCC), Hel, Thor and Loki (if the Order of the Stick is counted as being part of their side), the Snarl, the Dark One and Redcloak (if they aren't counted as Team Evil), and probably a few others.

As for Serini's ambush, I got V is called down for his 4ish minute period, Elan and Minrah is knocked out , Belkar gets a hit in and is knocked out, which leaves Haley, Roy, and Durkon to fight Serini back. Roy isn't going to back down like Lien and Haley will call the bluff as long as Durkon can neutralize poison. They will be left too weak to defeat Xykon, though and will probably be forced to flee into the Dungeon of Serini doesn't get them all. Thoughts?

[Rrmcklin]

Belkar is going to straight up die, and that's it. There will be no "clever" twist of subversion of "oh, he took a new name", or "he became undead", or "dead and brought back". I still don't get why people keep trying to argue differently.

The Giant has clarified that Elan's prophecy was specifically to reassure readers that will things will get dark, this is still a light-hearted story at heart. Therefore, it's incredibly unlikely that a happy ending for Elan "at least" actually allows for the death's of most of the Order. But I feel like that's the kind of thing he really shouldn't have had to say because it's obvious from the general tone of the story, even with all of the seriousness.

[Thecommander236]

Belkar is going to straight up die, and that's it. There will be no "clever" twist of subversion of "oh, he took a new name", or "he became undead", or "dead and brought back". I still don't get why people keep trying to argue differently.

The Giant has clarified that Elan's prophecy was specifically to reassure readers that will things will get dark, this is still a light-hearted story at heart. Therefore, it's incredibly unlikely that a happy ending for Elan "at least" actually allows for the death's of most of the Order. But I feel like that's the kind of thing he really shouldn't have had to say because it's obvious from the general tone of the story, even with all of the seriousness.

I agree Belkar is going to straight up die, but is it regular die or "obliterated from existence" die. "Last breath - ever (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)" clearly implies no res. But I'm still trying to figure out how it's going to go down.

Plus, that's not the only prediction I care about. Not every gun has to be fired, but there's plenty still out there.

[Edreyn]

Maybe the revealed MITD will eat Belkar - two mysteries with one shot.

[Liquor Box]

Belkar is going to straight up die, and that's it. There will be no "clever" twist of subversion of "oh, he took a new name", or "he became undead", or "dead and brought back". I still don't get why people keep trying to argue differently.


Probably because Durkon's prophecy of only returning home posthumously was subverted in that way. Also perhaps because Belkar is probably the most popular member of the Order, and people don't want to see him have a bad ending.

I think the most popular theory about Belkar's ending is that he will die sacrificing himself for someone, perhaps the whole world. This will complete his arc, and move him out of evil into some other alignment. This theory seems as likely to me as any, and if so I'd expect it to happen in the final battle because it's fitting that a protagonist character remains part of the story to the end.

[Ginasius]

I have a hunch that Elan, not Belkar, is going to die very soon. I don't know if he will be resurrected or not; in any case we know this story is going to have a happy ending for him so it is possible that his adventures in the afterlife, possibly mentored by the gods, will play an important role in saving the world.

I love these prediction threads. If I'm wrong this will all be soon forgotten but if I got it right I'll be able to show this thread in a few weeks and say "Hey, look at me. I'm really smart."

[Thecommander236]

Probably because Durkon's prophecy of only returning home posthumously was subverted in that way. Also perhaps because Belkar is probably the most popular member of the Order, and people don't want to see him have a bad ending.

I think the most popular theory about Belkar's ending is that he will die sacrificing himself for someone, perhaps the whole world. This will complete his arc, and move him out of evil into some other alignment. This theory seems as likely to me as any, and if so I'd expect it to happen in the final battle because it's fitting that a protagonist character remains part of the story to the end.

My theory is he's going to die jumping in front of V. He is attracted to hir and he was unusually protective when Durkula and Co. mindcontrolled him. Him and V have this weird "we hate each other but have the same sense of humor" thing going on. Well, mostly the same. Anything perverted or exaggerated Belkar says is rejected outright, but using Yukyuk as a little box was just... yuck. (Hey, I just got the joke of his name). Then there may be some dying declaration of love or at least lust and an apology for abandoning them to be surrounded by goblins (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html) in the very first Dungeon.

[InvisibleBison]

What about all the sides that the Demon roaches predicted? How many of them are still in play and which on the one is going to do the deed to Belkar? I think the roaches said there were at least 9 sides, but there could be more. We have Team Evil, IFCC, Serini, Order of the Stick, the Linear Guild (if they aren't counted as part of IFCC), Hel, Thor and Loki (if the Order of the Stick is counted as being part of their side), the Snarl, the Dark One and Redcloak (if they aren't counted as Team Evil), and probably a few others.

The nine sides isn't a list of groups that are involved in the plot at some point; it's a list of groups that were involved in the conflict over the gates at the time of #548. Of the groups/people you list, the IFCC, Serini, the Linear Guild, Hel, Loki, and the Snarl are either not involved in the conflict at all, or only get involved later.

[ziproot]

The nine sides isn't a list of groups that are involved in the plot at some point; it's a list of groups that were involved in the conflict over the gates at the time of #548. Of the groups/people you list, the IFCC, Serini, the Linear Guild, Hel, Loki, and the Snarl are either not involved in the conflict at all, or only get involved later.

The commentary in Don't Split the Party says at least one of the sides is introduced in Blood Runs in the Family. I think that side is Hel but I'm not sure. What I am sure about is that not all of them have to be involved in the conflict over the gates at the time of #548.

[Shadowknight12]

We also have an unfired Chekhov's gun in Redcloak's family. Right-eye smuggled his daughter away from Team Evil in the prequel books so Redcloak's niece can pop up.

From Rich's Patreon, we were basically told she's never showing up again (unless she is).

[Rrmcklin]

Probably because Durkon's prophecy of only returning home posthumously was subverted in that way. Also perhaps because Belkar is probably the most popular member of the Order, and people don't want to see him have a bad ending.

I think the most popular theory about Belkar's ending is that he will die sacrificing himself for someone, perhaps the whole world. This will complete his arc, and move him out of evil into some other alignment. This theory seems as likely to me as any, and if so I'd expect it to happen in the final battle because it's fitting that a protagonist character remains part of the story to the end.

Durkon's prophecy wasn't subverted though; it said he would return home posthumously and he did, there was no mention of him not being returned. Ever single mention of Belkar's inevitable death has indicated it would be permanent. The two situation's aren't comparable.

For that matter, none of the prophecies were actually subverted, it's just that what they were referring to weren't immediately obvious until they actually happened. People keep conflating those things, when they don't actually mean the same thing.

[Liquor Box]

Durkon's prophecy wasn't subverted though; it said he would return home posthumously and he did, there was no mention of him not being returned. Ever single mention of Belkar's inevitable death has indicated it would be permanent. The two situation's aren't comparable.

For that matter, none of the prophecies were actually subverted, it's just that what they were referring to weren't immediately obvious until they actually happened. People keep conflating those things, when they don't actually mean the same thing.

Which would be the same thing as would happen if Belkar died (fulfilling the prophecy), but was then brought back to live he would go on. This is no more or less a subversion than what happened to Durkon

[Gurgeh]

The prophecy isn't just that Belkar will die. The exact wording (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) is that he will "draw his last breath - ever".

Being turned into a golem or an undead or whatever wouldn't necessarily contradict it, but any conventional return to life most definitely would.

[Kantaki]

The prophecy isn't just that Belkar will die. The exact wording (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) is that he will "draw his last breath - ever".

Being turned into a golem or an undead or whatever wouldn't necessarily contradict it, but any conventional return to life most definitely would.

The official, on record prophecy, sure.
But all the other little comments* about his future?
Belkar
- shouldn't bother funding his IRA
- should savour his next birthday cake
- won't be long for this world
- will draw his last breath ever before the end of the year.

So yeah, Belkar's probably a goner.

*Which are prophecies. That's why there's a memory charm in the first place

[Gurgeh]

I'm not arguing that Belkar isn't going to die - for the record, I believe that it will play out exactly as presented. I was posting to point out that even if the central thrust of the prediction turns out to be a trick, it definitely will not involve Belkar simply getting rezzed the way Liquor Box is saying.

[Liquor Box]

I'm not arguing that Belkar isn't going to die - for the record, I believe that it will play out exactly as presented. I was posting to point out that even if the central thrust of the prediction turns out to be a trick, it definitely will not involve Belkar simply getting rezzed the way Liquor Box is saying.

Sure, maybe. Perhaps he will ascend to godhood.

[InvisibleBison]

Sure, maybe. Perhaps he will ascend to godhood.

Ascending to godhood appears to require that you are worshiped. Who's going to worship Belkar?

[Thecommander236]

From Rich's Patreon, we were basically told she's never showing up again (unless she is).

*shrug* Doesn't have to be her. Could be her husband or something. The point was, though, that a lot of unfinished plot lines could pop up at the 11th hour.

[Liquor Box]

Ascending to godhood appears to require that you are worshiped. Who's going to worship Belkar?

Plenty of fans I think, from the result of the forum's character popularity poll. But point taken that he probably doesn;t meet the prerequisites for godhood. I suppose my point was there are lots of ways in this weird and magical world that Belkar could go on without breathing, which are not much more or less of a subversion than Durkon returning home posthumously but coming back to life.

Not that I actually think that's what's going to happen.

[Thecommander236]

Plenty of fans I think, from the result of the forum's character popularity poll. But point taken that he probably doesn;t meet the prerequisites for godhood. I suppose my point was there are lots of ways in this weird and magical world that Belkar could go on without breathing, which are not much more or less of a subversion than Durkon returning home posthumously but coming back to life.

Not that I actually think that's what's going to happen.

Given that Odin was willing to make Banjo a god when he had one worshipper probably means that the endorsement is more important than the worship. If a top-god like Marduk or Dragon or Odin said "Belkar is now the sexy shoeless god of war", then he can just get worshippers later. He's a god, baby.

No chance in hell that's happening though. I'm pretty sure Tiger is the god of war for the southern pantheon as he stood up Thor when he tried to interfere on Durkon's behalf when he was in Southern lands and the gods of the west would have little reason to endorse Belkar since he has mostly stuck around in Northern lands. And I sure as hell don't see Lawful Good Odin, who doesn't want his sand castles kicked, endorsing a Chaotic Evil Halfing. Besides the Northern gods already have a god of war.

[Liquor Box]

Given that Odin was willing to make Banjo a god when he had one worshipper probably means that the endorsement is more important than the worship. If a top-god like Marduk or Dragon or Odin said "Belkar is now the sexy shoeless god of war", then he can just get worshippers later. He's a god, baby.

No chance in hell that's happening though. I'm pretty sure Tiger is the god of war for the southern pantheon as he stood up Thor when he tried to interfere on Durkon's behalf when he was in Southern lands and the gods of the west would have little reason to endorse Belkar since he has mostly stuck around in Northern lands. And I sure as hell don't see Lawful Good Odin, who doesn't want his sand castles kicked, endorsing a Chaotic Evil Halfing. Besides the Northern gods already have a god of war.

You mentioning that Tiger is the god of war reminded me of Belkar's moniker - sexy shoeless god of war could have been foreshadowing,

[Roc Ness]

I'm surprised everyone still keeps getting stuck on finding a loophole to bring Belkar back to the material plane to keep being relevant, or that he needs to finish his character development before he dies. I mean, Roy did half his character development in the afterlife, and also chopped up an evil adventurer while he was there. I don't know what's stopping Belkar from sinking a ghostly dagger into a fiend or two.

So I predict that Belkar will die before the climax. He will be judged like the opposite of Roy, get his final character development while he's dead (probably by being a badass who can handle intense hardcore introspection (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html) in front of whatever's judging him), and then personally fight the IFCC to release Vaarsuvius from hell during the climax. Because I dunno how else we're gonna get Vaarsuvius back from hell early, but Belkar would be in the planar vicinity. :smallamused:

All while dead.

And he won't return to life because he's too busy enjoying his Chaotic Neutral afterlife. Or iunno, demons ate his soul after he finally succumbs to the legions of hell in a final post-mortem blaze of glory.


Extra: I predict he'll be anywhere near the IFCC in the first place because they're looking for go-getters (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) and he could probably use one last evil temptation to throw a cat at (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) to really sell that he's a different Belkar who puts the team first.

[Thecommander236]

You mentioning that Tiger is the god of war reminded me of Belkar's moniker - sexy shoeless god of war could have been foreshadowing,

The Dark One doesn't have a god of war working for him yet. XD

[Scottzg]

957 Panel 7

Belkar: I was there when Durkon died, and no way does he flip from forgiving me for not saving him to slurping my blood in 90 seconds.
Belkar: People don’t just change who they are in an instant. It doesn’t work like that. It takes time, so you don’t even know you’re changing.
Belkar: Until one day, you’re just a bit different than you used to be and you can’t even tell what the hell happened.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html

I think we've been seeing Belkar slowly turning into someone else ever since meeting Shojo. I think he's going to impulsively have a hero's death and find himself very confused in the chaotic good afterlife.

I think by this point he's already edging toward chaotic neutral.

[brian 333]

Based on what I've read by The Giant, we have about two books worth of content in this last book, so we still have a long way to go before we have to worry about the prophecies.

My quatloos are already on 'Belkar gets disintegrated by The Snarl while saving someone else,' with a sidebet that the someone else is Durkon.

But that will likely be many many strips from now.

[Fyraltari]

Given that Odin was willing to make Banjo a god when he had one worshipper probably means that the endorsement is more important than the worship.
I am not confident the senile god thought thingd through.


Lawful Good Odin

Funniest **** I've read this morning.

[Gurgeh]

I am not confident the senile god thought thingd through.
This. I am also not confident the throwaway gag was meant to be taken seriously.



Funniest **** I've read this morning.
OOTS deity alignment (and characterisation more broadly) doesn't really line up with past D&D takes on said deities. Deities and Demigods stats Thor up as Chaotic Good, which we know he can't be in OOTS, since Durkon is LG and a cleric can't be more than one step away from their deity's alignment. Honestly, we've seen so little of Odin in the comic that it's hard to make any alignment judgement on him more specific than "probably not evil".

(The forum rules on real-world religion apparently extend to norse mythology, so I won't bother with any comparisons outside printed D&D rules).

[Quartz]

I reckon Belkar is going to be 'alive' in some form at the end of the final fight if not the story. There are many ways for Belkar to be present without breathing. He's very likely to become a Revenant IMO. Another way would be for him to become a golem a la Crystal.
Belkar could also be turned into a woman or reincarnated as something that doesn't breathe - a giant ant, perhaps?

But I'm sure the Giant has something up his sleeve that will delight us.

[Fyraltari]

Deities and Demigods stats Thor up as Chaotic Good, which we know he can't be in OOTS, since Durkon is LG and a cleric can't be more than one step away from their deity's alignment.

Doesn't that rule state that some gods may have exceptions to that rule (with a Cuthbert guy or something?). If so, considering Thor's and the dawrves' history regarding the Bet, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Thor is both Chaotic Good and allowed to have dwarvish clerics of any non-Evil alignment.

[Gurgeh]

If such a rule exists, it's not in the SRD. Given your example mentions a Greyhawk deity, it's obviously not something that would have made it into the OGL content word-for-word. That said, the SRD description of the Cleric's alignment restrictions is pretty straightforward:


A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful-chaotic axis or the good-evil axis, but not both). A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral.
No exceptions are stated.

[hamishspence]

Doesn't that rule state that some gods may have exceptions to that rule (with a Cuthbert guy or something?). If so, considering Thor's and the dawrves' history regarding the Bet, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Thor is both Chaotic Good and allowed to have dwarvish clerics of any non-Evil alignment.

Cuthbert is a LN deity that does not allow LE clerics despite the fact that they are within 1 step. So is Kord (CG, does not allow CN clerics).

But there's plenty of examples of the reverse in Forgotten Realms's Faiths & Pantheons - deities which list "available cleric alignments that are more than 1 step away".

And, I think, in Deities and Demigods, Kord is a CG deity with "available cleric alignments" CG, LG, NG. Which would exactly fit with the proposed "CG deity that allows LG clerics" idea for Thor.

Kord is the most like D&D Thor of the Greyhawk deities, fluffwise and statwise.

[Peelee]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html

I think we've been seeing Belkar slowly turning into someone else ever since meeting Shojo. I think he's going to impulsively have a hero's death and find himself very confused in the chaotic good afterlife.
I'll take that bet. My money is on us never seeing Belkar's afterlife.

OOTS deity alignment (and characterisation more broadly) doesn't really line up with past D&D takes on said deities. Deities and Demigods stats Thor up as Chaotic Good, which we know he can't be in OOTS

The "one-step rule" is not necessarily in effect. We do not know that Thor can certainly be Chaotic Good in OotS; the author explicitly said he will buck standard D&D rules when he sees fit.

Also, there are totally exceptions in RAW:
Alignment: A cleric's alignment must be within one step of his deity's (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful-chaotic axis or the good-evil axis, but not both). Exceptions are the clerics of St. Cuthbert (a lawful neutral deity), who may choose only between lawful good and lawful neutral for their alignment. A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity's alignment is also neutral.
St. Cuthbert takes an exception in the other direction, but in Stockworld Thor could well have an exception that extends to Lawful Good, especially given his history with how the dwarves turned that way. This, for the record, is my belief - the rule is in effect but Thor has an exception.

[Rater202]

Io as depicted in Races of the Dragon is another example of a deity with exceptions: Normally a True Neutral deity can, by RAW, only have TN, NG, NE, LN, or CN Clerics, which are all within one step of True Neutral, but per Races of the Dragon Io can have Clerics of any Alignment. For some reason, the book lists all nine of them out instead of just saying "any."

(Unless thre's some other ruling about TN deities that I'm not aware of.)

I don't remember which one off the top of my head, but when a description of Durkon was required "worships Thor" did not narrow it down at all, implying that worship of Thor is very common among Dwarves as a race, possibly even the majority religion.

If the majority of a race worships a deity, said deity might have exceptions to their Cleric requirements to accommodate for the fact that the majority of worshipers are going to be of diverse alignments.

With how OOTs Thor is depicted, I could see the exception being as big as "any non-evil."

[Fyraltari]

I'm going to let people who know what they're talking about discuss the rules from now on, but I just want to say that a Chaotic Thor having to accept lawful clerics as part of fixing the damage he unwittingly caused fits my reading of the character.

I don't remember which one off the top of my head, but when a description of Durkon was required "worships Thor" did not narrow it down at all, implying that worship of Thor is very common among Dwarves as a race, possibly even the majority religion.

[Url=https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html]This one[/quote], add to that that the High Priest of Thor was a Firmament dwarf twice in a row and it seems that Thor is indeed the major dwarven deity. (Dvalin is probably second.)

[dancrilis]

With how OOTs Thor is depicted, I could see the exception being as big as "any non-evil."

Always felt it was somewhat short-sighted for deities to exclude any worshipper based solely on alignment - this might be especially true in OOTS where gods need worhip, dedication and souls.

[Fyraltari]

Always felt it was somewhat short-sighted for deities to exclude any worshipper based solely on alignment - this might be especially true in OOTS where gods need worhip, dedication and souls.

If I had to guess, I would say that the idea is either that a mortal and a god too far apart in alignment have too different worldviews for that mortal to worship that deity, they'd consider them foolish, tyrannical or toonalien for their taste, or that mortals with the wrong alignment can't give the gods the proper divine nutrients, they're just not digestible. Or both.

Edit: or it may be that they're completely fine with having laypeople of any alignment worshipping them, but they're only going to give the magical powers to the people they actually trust with them and who can be relied upon to pass on their teachings faithfully.

[brian 333]

If such a rule exists, it's not in the SRD. Given your example mentions a Greyhawk deity, it's obviously not something that would have made it into the OGL content word-for-word. That said, the SRD description of the Cleric's alignment restrictions is pretty straightforward:


No exceptions are stated.

And yet, in 3.0 Forgotten Realms Sune, (CG,) can have Paladins.

As the patron of dwarves, Thor can have dwarf clerics without regard to alignment.

[Scottzg]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html

I think we've been seeing Belkar slowly turning into someone else ever since meeting Shojo. I think he's going to impulsively have a hero's death and find himself very confused in the chaotic good afterlife.


I'll take that bet. My money is on us never seeing Belkar's afterlife.

Oh i totally agree. It's better narrative to not show too much of Belkar's halfling-manity. But i definitely think he's going to have a Good death. I'll bet on that fosho. I'm looking forward to how it plays out.

[Rrmcklin]

Regarding Belkar ascending to godhood, it strikes me as missing the point of the character in much the same way it would for Redcloak. And just like Redcloak answer to his increasing diving into the Sunk Cost Fallacy isn't going to be "you get to be literally deified" the story isn't going to say to Belkar "because you managed to maybe stop being a terrible person, you deserve to be literally deified" either.

In line with this, I very much doubt Belkar will ever register as Chaotic Good by the end. Maybe he'll just barely register as Neutral and not Evil, but I give that as like 50/50 odds.

It almost strikes me as a sort of an insult to the Giant's writing and themes to think the story ends by validating and/or glorifying either of them like that.

[brian 333]

I agree with the above post. Belkar has a lot of kiloNs to balance against a very few attaboys.

That said, I think The Giant could glorify redemptions and show that new beginnings are possible without absolving B-man or RC of their cumulative crimes.

[Synesthesy]

While I think that redemption (that is a rare thing, after all) would be well spent on Belkar, both with Redcloak or without Redcloak, I still think that the Giant is not so banal to make Belkar simply die just because the oracle said that.

The problem with Belkar is giving an happy ending to an evil character, and while I see no problem with it at all (an evil character deserves some kind of reward for saving the world, then we'll see), I don't think the Giant would like it so linear. It is the same reason why Belkar has no backstory. However, a way to resolve it is simply to make Belkar no more evil.

Oh, and for the prophecy, I simply think that we'll discover that the oracle can be wrong. There is so much we don't know about the Gods that we shouldn't trust a power given by Tiamat apparently without anything to gain.



Please don't hate me for my opinion I know that almost no reader agree with me :smallwink:

[Rrmcklin]

While I think that redemption (that is a rare thing, after all) would be well spent on Belkar, both with Redcloak or without Redcloak, I still think that the Giant is not so banal to make Belkar simply die just because the oracle said that.

The problem with Belkar is giving an happy ending to an evil character, and while I see no problem with it at all (an evil character deserves some kind of reward for saving the world, then we'll see), I don't think the Giant would like it so linear. It is the same reason why Belkar has no backstory. However, a way to resolve it is simply to make Belkar no more evil.

Oh, and for the prophecy, I simply think that we'll discover that the oracle can be wrong. There is so much we don't know about the Gods that we shouldn't trust a power given by Tiamat apparently without anything to gain.



Please don't hate me for my opinion I know that almost no reader agree with me :smallwink:

I won't hate, but I still have to ask "what does this add to the story?" If this were a typical "defying destiny" story or whatever I could see the point, but that's not the case - there have been attempts or even starts at attempts to prevent Belkar's death. There is no indication there is ever going to be such an effort. You mention it being "banal" to just play his death straight (I don't understand how , but that's not the main point right now) but how is it not banal to just go "oh, I guess the Oracle was wrong for no reason, funny that." In what way is that supposed to be satisfying?

I'd also say you're working backwards - the Giant is not having Belkar die because the Oracle said it, the Oracle said it because the Giant wanted us to know, well in advance, that Belkar would die. That's why all of the prophecies exist, because he wanted us to know, in advance, a direction the story would lead to without actually giving us the details as to how the story would get there.

So, yes, you're entitled to your opinion, but I do still feel the need to say that opinion seems based on faulty premises.

[Fyraltari]

I agree with the above post. Belkar has a lot of kiloNs to balance against a very few attaboys.

That said, I think The Giant could glorify redemptions and show that new beginnings are possible without absolving B-man or RC of their cumulative crimes.

:vaarsuvius:

[hroþila]

While I think that redemption (that is a rare thing, after all) would be well spent on Belkar, both with Redcloak or without Redcloak, I still think that the Giant is not so banal to make Belkar simply die just because the oracle said that.
Surely you have it backwards. Belkar wouldn't die because the Oracle said he would – the Oracle said he would because Belkar would die.

[Emanick]

Surely you have it backwards. Belkar wouldn't die because the Oracle said he would – the Oracle said he would because Belkar would die.

You're mistaken. Belkar will be killed in the final panel of the final strip by a hitman sent by the Oracle.

[dancrilis]

I suspect that Belkar will die no loopholes.

However there is a potential loophole that might be use - namely that Belkar has already died and not been raised, if the Oracle looked into the future saw into the illusion without noticing noted all the elements of the quest completed with a dead Belkar and a statue of him and didn't bother looking further then he could have effectively made a mistake (in a similiar manner to trusting the memory spell to wipe Roy's memory).

This is unlikely I think (for a number of reasons) but if it happens that way/had happened that way I would be fine with it (subject to delivery etc).

[Rrmcklin]

I suspect that Belkar will die no loopholes.

However there is a potential loophole that might be use - namely that Belkar has already died and not been raised, if the Oracle looked into the future saw into the illusion without noticing noted all the elements of the quest completed with a dead Belkar and a statue of him and didn't bother looking further then he could have effectively made a mistake (in a similiar manner to trusting the memory spell to wipe Roy's memory).

This is unlikely I think (for a number of reasons) but if it happens that way/had happened that way I would be fine with it (subject to delivery etc).

That strikes me as the same as saying that illusion was Elan's happy ending; I'm really not seeing a way that acts as a satisfying answer (well, not unless the only thing you're interested in is Belkar not dying).

[Ruck]

I think the most popular theory about Belkar's ending is that he will die sacrificing himself for someone, perhaps the whole world. This will complete his arc, and move him out of evil into some other alignment. This theory seems as likely to me as any, and if so I'd expect it to happen in the final battle because it's fitting that a protagonist character remains part of the story to the end.

I have been expecting something like this.


The prophecy isn't just that Belkar will die. The exact wording (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) is that he will "draw his last breath - ever".

Being turned into a golem or an undead or whatever wouldn't necessarily contradict it, but any conventional return to life most definitely would.


The official, on record prophecy, sure.
But all the other little comments* about his future?
Belkar
- shouldn't bother funding his IRA
- should savour his next birthday cake
- won't be long for this world
- will draw his last breath ever before the end of the year.

So yeah, Belkar's probably a goner.

*Which are prophecies. That's why there's a memory charm in the first place

Yeah, these comments are indicative to me that Belkar will die, full stop, no twists or subversions. The Oracle is basically taunting him about his upcoming death with those comments.


While I think that redemption (that is a rare thing, after all) would be well spent on Belkar, both with Redcloak or without Redcloak, I still think that the Giant is not so banal to make Belkar simply die just because the oracle said that.

The Giant wrote the Oracle saying that.

[ebarde]

Belkar bullrushes Xykon into the snarl, mirroring what Roy did in the first volume. Roy then walks over and destroys Xykon soul thingie.

Also, the gate will be transported to Xykon's astral fortress, where the final battle will take place.

Since we're still in really specific territory, gonna go out on a limb and say that the ritual is gonna happen but Redcloak and Xykon won't be the ones to cast it.

[Dion]

Since we're still in really specific territory, gonna go out on a limb and say that the ritual is gonna happen but Redcloak and Xykon won't be the ones to cast it.

But where will we find two epic spellcasters!

It’s not like there are two epic spellcasters just hanging out in Chekhov’s soul gem, waiting to be freed for revenge on Xykon during the final battle. So I can’t see how that idea would work.

[Fyraltari]

But where will we find two epic spellcasters!

It’s not like there are two epic spellcasters just hanging out in Chekhov’s soul gem, waiting to be freed for revenge on Xykon during the final battle. So I can’t see how that idea would work.

It doesn't need two Epic spellcasters. However it does require one high-level priest of the Dark One wearing the Crimson Mantle.

[Dion]

It doesn't need two Epic spellcasters. However it does require one high-level priest of the Dark One wearing the Crimson Mantle.


Or maybe... an epic level rogue with crazy high level “use magic device” skills could use the crimson mantle!

But we haven’t seen one of those either...

[BloodSquirrel]

While I think that redemption (that is a rare thing, after all) would be well spent on Belkar, both with Redcloak or without Redcloak, I still think that the Giant is not so banal to make Belkar simply die just because the oracle said that.

The problem with Belkar is giving an happy ending to an evil character, and while I see no problem with it at all (an evil character deserves some kind of reward for saving the world, then we'll see), I don't think the Giant would like it so linear. It is the same reason why Belkar has no backstory. However, a way to resolve it is simply to make Belkar no more evil.

Oh, and for the prophecy, I simply think that we'll discover that the oracle can be wrong. There is so much we don't know about the Gods that we shouldn't trust a power given by Tiamat apparently without anything to gain.


I'm pretty sure at this point that the reason for the Giant giving us the prophecy was that it makes Belkar's redemption arc more poignant. "Redemption = death" is common enough that it wouldn't be much of a twist on its own. So the Giant flipped it- we knew he was going to die first. Roy called it "running out the clock" because he was evil and destructive and his death was, frankly, going to be a welcome event. Now we're seeing that... maybe not quite so much. Knowing that Belkar is going to die when he doesn't adds a lot of tragic irony to his character arc.

People assume that prophecies must be subverted because, otherwise, what's the point? It's just a spoiler. But now we know what the subversion really is- Belkar isn't going to die a villain like we thought he was. So it doesn't need to be double-subverted with some kind of semantic loophole.

[Fyraltari]

People assume that prophecies must be subverted because, otherwise, what's the point? It's just a spoiler.

Dramatic irony is a valid narrative tool, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[hroþila]

For much of its history, literature was about telling and elaborating on stories that the audience was already familiar with. We tend to focus a bit too much on plot twists for their own sake these days.

[BloodSquirrel]

Dramatic irony is a valid narrative tool, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Even in the case of dramatic irony, subversion is often involved. The most classic case- the self-fulfilling prophecy- is about the attempt to avoid the prophecy having the opposite outcome as expected.

[Fyraltari]

For much of its history, literature was about telling and elaborating on stories that the audience was already familiar with. We tend to focus a bit too much on plot twists for their own sake these days.
Yup, if you can't enjoy a story knowing the end, then it's a bad story.

Even in the case of dramatic irony, subversion is often involved. The most classic case- the self-fulfilling prophecy- is about the attempt to avoid the prophecy having the opposite outcome as expected.
That's not a subversion, though. The things that were prophecized happened as prophecized.

[Rrmcklin]

For much of its history, literature was about telling and elaborating on stories that the audience was already familiar with. We tend to focus a bit too much on plot twists for their own sake these days.

I recently watched a really good video on mistakes of the final seasons of Game of Thrones, and one of the most succulent points was that being subversive and being surprising are not the same thing, and that the writers (and a lot of people) apparently don't understand that.

Subversion only has value if the turn makes you analyze things in a new way such that it adds more than what you were expecting. Also, it should make sense, if only in hindsight. This is distinct from the idea of "well the writer said this, so we should do something completely different and unexpected, because that's good writing" that doesn't take time to think about if the "twist" actually adds anything new or better, or even makes sense.

[Ruck]

I recently watched a really good video on mistakes of the final seasons of Game of Thrones, and one of the most succulent points was that being subversive and being surprising are not the same thing, and that the writers (and a lot of people) apparently don't understand that.

Subversion only has value if the turn makes you analyze things in a new way such that it adds more than what you were expecting. Also, it should make sense, if only in hindsight. This is distinct from the idea of "well the writer said this, so we should do something completely different and unexpected, because that's good writing" that doesn't take time to think about if the "twist" actually adds anything new or better, or even makes sense.

"Surprising yet inevitable" is how Aristotle described it, and I don't think I've found a more succinct description since.

(For my money, the biggest problem with the final seasons of Game of Thrones was that Benioff and Weiss seemed more interested in checking off every box on the Plot Events George R.R. Martin Told Them Needed To Happen, without bothering to develop character motivations in such a way that the decisions that led to those events made sense.)