Battlemaster vs kensei, If you want to play a "sword saint" which would you pick?

[Rfkannen]

Battlemaster and kensei can fill a similar position in the fluff, the sword saint, the person who takes battle to an art. There are a lot of wuxia and murim characters that I could easily see building as either.


What is each subclass better at? What situations and parties are each one better for? What would be the deciding factor for you between playing a dex based battlemaster and a kensei? Am I misjudging the role of either class?

[strangebloke]

Kensei are monks and are thusly much more proscripted than Battlemasters, which are SAD and very customizable.

Personally it depends what you're going for. Kensei has a lot more dashing flair with the high movement speed and shirtless 22 AC, but Battlemaster is definitely a bigger "master of the blade" since the Kensei will ultimately be making most of their attacks with fists.

Kensei is ultimately a lot more durable, but plays differently than you might expect and isn't initially very durable at all

[BerzerkerUnit]

I'm going to offer a different perspective:

Bladesinger.

Sword Saints are traditionally shown doing things more readily replicated with spells. A Battlemaster isn't running up walls, a Monk won't for many levels. A Bladesinger can be doing it at level 3.

Sword Saints can do things like disappear, kill 5 men, and reappear an instant later. That's the Steel Wind Strike Spell. Neither Kensei or Battlemaster can do it. Battlemaster can get close with Cleave maneuvers at 11+ with particularly weak enemies. Bladesinger is doing it at 9th.

Sword Saints can race across vast distances, cause after images of their sword to strike down their foes. Haste, Swordburst Cantrip, etc.

Obviously, if you prefer a martial playstyle, you can make a serviceable PC out of either Monk or Fighter, but for my money, a pure 1 to 1 of what I see such characters do on the screen vs what the mechanics say they can do on my sheet, it's Bladesinger.

Good luck!

[Dienekes]

Yeah, agreeing a bit with Berzerker I suppose it depends what you mean by sword saint. The historical title kensei were people like Musashi, or Takeda Shingen, or Itto Ittosai. All of them I would say were Battlemasters.

But the anime version where you jump around doing backflips and teleporting behind people and whatever would best be presented as some form of magic user with a sword.

[Omni-Centrist]

Kensei always seemed to me to be more of an archer than a sword fighter

[sophontteks]

Agreed. Kensai is the ranged version of the monk. They aren't sword saints at all.

[Omni-Centrist]

Agreed. Kensai is the ranged version of the monk. They aren't sword saints at all.

I do like how they have a good solution if you're forced into melee: your weapon becomes a shield and your body becomes a melee weapon. It's a really neat off-tank that a lot of ranged classes dont have access to. I've seen too many rangers get their bones pulverized because they 1) had ranger AC and 2) didnt equip for the possibility of melee

[x3n0n]

Kensei always seemed to me to be more of an archer than a sword fighter

Agreed. Kensai is the ranged version of the monk. They aren't sword saints at all.

I agree that Kensei is the best Monk for archery, and that it supports archery better than it does melee.

However, I think Ki-Fueled Attack makes Kensei an acceptable swordfighter now; much better than when your best move was usually to carry your sword but only punch people. (Sword is eventually worse for Kensei than whip is unless you get an awesome magic sword.)

That said, Battle Master Eladrin/Shadar-Kai/Fey-Touched definitely seems more "sword-saint" to me.

[sophontteks]

I do like how they have a good solution if you're forced into melee: your weapon becomes a shield and your body becomes a melee weapon. It's a really neat off-tank that a lot of ranged classes dont have access to. I've seen too many rangers get their bones pulverized because they 1) had ranger AC and 2) didnt equip for the possibility of melee
I'm tempted to try one out. I'm also a big fan of their mobility and save bonuses. There is a lot to like IMO. It's a tough call with the tasha rangers though. Rangers get some mobility bonuses too now. Plus more skills, expertise, and more HP.

Since Tashas we've been flooded with a lot of cool new ranged ideas. Choice paralysis is real.

[Witty Username]

I agree that Kensei is the best Monk for archery, and that it supports archery better than it does melee.

However, I think Ki-Fueled Attack makes Kensei an acceptable swordfighter now; much better than when your best move was usually to carry your sword but only punch people. (Sword is eventually worse for Kensei than whip is unless you get an awesome magic sword.)

That said, Battle Master Eladrin/Shadar-Kai/Fey-Touched definitely seems more "sword-saint" to me.

Would that be deft strike to use the ki, bonus attack with kensei weapon?
So about
Sword, unarmed strike (AC bonus sword), Sword
with on first sword hit
Sword+deft strike, unarmed strike, Sword
and on first sword miss
unarmed strike, unarmed strike AC(bonus) or
Sword, try for other sword

There is also stunning strike, I think that is the only option monks get as part of an attack line:
unarmed strike(might as well be the first one for the AC bonus), Sword, Sword
better chance of getting the second sword strike but with a chance to whiff the stun.

Just trying to get a map of how this works.

[x3n0n]

Would that be deft strike to use the ki, bonus attack with kensei weapon?
So about
Sword, unarmed strike (AC bonus sword), Sword
with on first sword hit
Sword+deft strike, unarmed strike, Sword
and on first sword miss
unarmed strike, unarmed strike AC(bonus) or
Sword, try for other sword

There is also stunning strike, I think that is the only option monks get as part of an attack line:
unarmed strike(might as well be the first one for the AC bonus), Sword, Sword
better chance of getting the second sword strike but with a chance to whiff the stun.

Just trying to get a map of how this works.

Pretty much.

Slight tweak to your Attack action:

Sword first; if it hits, and you decide to stun, and the stun works, then you may decide not to bother with Agile Parry.
Second attack: sword or unarmed strike depending on whether you want Agile Parry.

Bonus Action: assuming you spent a ki on at least one of Focused Aim, Deft Strike, or a Stunning Strike attempt, use Ki-Fueled Attack for another sword attack.

This also makes whip a lot better IMO: two attempts (spending a ki), bonus action whip (staying out of reach).

(Note that a similar routine works for ranged, except no Stunning Strike option, just Focused Aim and Deft Strike. Amechra made a thread about that idea a couple of months ago.)

[Rfkannen]

I really like the idea of a Bladesinger! Anyone have any build ideas for a bladesibger wanting to go for the sword Saint vibe?

[Unoriginal]

A Bladesinger will never be a great sword user, though.

I mean you can be "not bad" with a sword, but you're primarily a wizard who does wizard things. The bonus AC, the Concentration save bonus and the one extra attack doesn't make up for being a d6 caster who lacks anything to help with CON or DEX saves, or the like.

[x3n0n]

I really like the idea of a Bladesinger! Anyone have any build ideas for a bladesibger wanting to go for the sword Saint vibe?

I think you need to decide on your priorities and when you want them.

If you're a magic user first, Bladesinger is a fine pick, but your best place will often be away from the front lines.
You'll be a competent Fighter faster (and have maneuvers) as a Battle Master.
Ditto Eldritch Knight, but without maneuvers (unless you take the fighting style or feat).
Hexblade and/or Blade Pact offer another route toward martial prowess with a decent amount of spellcasting that could be wuxia-like abilities.
Rogue (Swashbuckler, probably) also offers the promise of one big hit per round, if you like the "duelist who only hits to kill" approach.

For just a splash of magic, you could take a race and/or feats for your specific goals.

Teleport? Eladrin, Shadar-kai, and Fey Touched all get that for you right away.
Spider Climb? Not many choices unless you go UA for Dhampir or take a casting class.

What kinds of supernatural abilities are you looking for?

[Unoriginal]

Spider Climb? Not many choices unless you go UA for Dhampir or take a casting class.

The Tabaxi got a climb speed.


For the subclass suggestions, Psi Warrior could also work, depending on what you want.

So could the Sword Bard.

[Rfkannen]

I think you need to decide on your priorities and when you want them.

If you're a magic user first, Bladesinger is a fine pick, but your best place will often be away from the front lines.
You'll be a competent Fighter faster (and have maneuvers) as a Battle Master.
Ditto Eldritch Knight, but without maneuvers (unless you take the fighting style or feat).
Hexblade and/or Blade Pact offer another route toward martial prowess with a decent amount of spellcasting that could be wuxia-like abilities.
Rogue (Swashbuckler, probably) also offers the promise of one big hit per round, if you like the "duelist who only hits to kill" approach.

For just a splash of magic, you could take a race and/or feats for your specific goals.

Teleport? Eladrin, Shadar-kai, and Fey Touched all get that for you right away.
Spider Climb? Not many choices unless you go UA for Dhampir or take a casting class.

What kinds of supernatural abilities are you looking for?

Good advice! yeah I did not start with a combat style so that is tough. My image for the character was not originally magical, but I could see it being magic.

The basic idea was a wandering swordsman who views violence as an art to be perfected, who sees no difference between a longsword and a calligraphy brush. They wander the world to see the art of all the greatest warriors, hoping to challenge them to battle and to experience their "art".

There is a line in Baki where a character is talking about an opponent of his and says "I fell in love with the discipline of it all, I fell in love with the growth of warriors, I love the very valor he fought with" and that was the inspiration, someone who loves and sees the beauty in the art of combat.

(not important to this but I was picturing them as being a bit of a Cloudcuckoolander (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Cloudcuckoolander)who is obsessed with calligraphy, martial skill, and is not really aware of much else. A bit of a fool.)

I am not sure how they would fight, but they would have to be in melee, properly experiencing their enemy's skill. So yeah did not start with a fighting style, so honestly anything could work lol.

[Unoriginal]

Good advice! yeah I did not start with a combat style so that is tough. My image for the character was not originally magical, but I could see it being magic.

The basic idea was a wandering swordsman who views violence as an art to be perfected, who sees no difference between a longsword and a calligraphy brush. They wander the world to see the art of all the greatest warriors, hoping to challenge them to battle and to experience their "art".

There is a line in Baki where a character is talking about an opponent of his and says "I fell in love with the discipline of it all, I fell in love with the growth of warriors, I love the very valor he fought with" and that was the inspiration, someone who loves and sees the beauty in the art of combat.

(not important to this but I was picturing them as being a bit of a Cloudcuckoolander (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Cloudcuckoolander)who is obsessed with calligraphy, martial skill, and is not really aware of much else. A bit of a fool.)

I am not sure how they would fight, but they would have to be in melee, properly experiencing their enemy's skill. So yeah did not start with a fighting style, so honestly anything could work lol.

Could be any class, really, but I think the Samurai Fighter got bonus calligraphy.

[x3n0n]

Good advice! yeah I did not start with a combat style so that is tough. My image for the character was not originally magical, but I could see it being magic.

The basic idea was a wandering swordsman who views violence as an art to be perfected, who sees no difference between a longsword and a calligraphy brush. They wander the world to see the art of all the greatest warriors, hoping to challenge them to battle and to experience their "art".

There is a line in Baki where a character is talking about an opponent of his and says "I fell in love with the discipline of it all, I fell in love with the growth of warriors, I love the very valor he fought with" and that was the inspiration, someone who loves and sees the beauty in the art of combat.

(not important to this but I was picturing them as being a bit of a Cloudcuckoolander (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Cloudcuckoolander)who is obsessed with calligraphy, martial skill, and is not really aware of much else. A bit of a fool.)

I am not sure how they would fight, but they would have to be in melee, properly experiencing their enemy's skill. So yeah did not start with a fighting style, so honestly anything could work lol.

In that case, just pick something that can swing a sword, preferably more than once a turn. :)

The intended flavor of Kensei and Samurai are right on for this, I think. Kensei actually gets Calligraphy proficiency at 3rd level, and Samurai gets a social skill like Persuasion or Performance.

Samurai might be right for that personality: pair every Action Surge with a Fighting Spirit to get 2 full Attack actions at advantage plus some extra THP to absorb whatever pain comes his way afterward, getting into the thick right away with boldness and/or bravery.

Fey Touched (Wis) also seems on flavor and reasonably synergistic with the Samurai 7th-level features.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I think you need to decide on your priorities and when you want them.

If you're a magic user first, Bladesinger is a fine pick, but your best place will often be away from the front lines.
You'll be a competent Fighter faster (and have maneuvers) as a Battle Master.
Ditto Eldritch Knight, but without maneuvers (unless you take the fighting style or feat).
Hexblade and/or Blade Pact offer another route toward martial prowess with a decent amount of spellcasting that could be wuxia-like abilities.
Rogue (Swashbuckler, probably) also offers the promise of one big hit per round, if you like the "duelist who only hits to kill" approach.

For just a splash of magic, you could take a race and/or feats for your specific goals.

Teleport? Eladrin, Shadar-kai, and Fey Touched all get that for you right away.
Spider Climb? Not many choices unless you go UA for Dhampir or take a casting class.

What kinds of supernatural abilities are you looking for?

I disagree that a Bladesinger won't be comfortable on the front line. You'll have a top tier AC for most combats most of your career. Provided you use a skirmishing strategy, moving in and out of melee range. The mobility feat is pretty amazing but you can accomplish the same with misty step. At level 6 you can even off tank in martial heavy fights by casting False Life then attacking and using Blade Ward each round. If you main hand a shadow blade your damage isn't that bad (though obviously not what it could be if you were using booming blade and a 2nd attack).

[strangebloke]

Good advice! yeah I did not start with a combat style so that is tough. My image for the character was not originally magical, but I could see it being magic.

The basic idea was a wandering swordsman who views violence as an art to be perfected, who sees no difference between a longsword and a calligraphy brush. They wander the world to see the art of all the greatest warriors, hoping to challenge them to battle and to experience their "art".

There is a line in Baki where a character is talking about an opponent of his and says "I fell in love with the discipline of it all, I fell in love with the growth of warriors, I love the very valor he fought with" and that was the inspiration, someone who loves and sees the beauty in the art of combat.

(not important to this but I was picturing them as being a bit of a Cloudcuckoolander (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Cloudcuckoolander)who is obsessed with calligraphy, martial skill, and is not really aware of much else. A bit of a fool.)

I am not sure how they would fight, but they would have to be in melee, properly experiencing their enemy's skill. So yeah did not start with a fighting style, so honestly anything could work lol.

Ahhhh. So something along the lines of Sasaki Kojiro as represented in Vagabond? (out of curiosity, who does that baki quote refer to?)

Honestly my take would be to make a Eladrin Samurai. You get that ethereal ageless nature from being an elf, and the teleportation ability plus the sudden burst ability of Samurai really fits the sword saint archetype.

For fighting style I'd either grab TWF or Mariner from UA. For me at least a 'sword saint' can't be someone who wears armor or uses a shield. Personally I favor mariner here. One open hand and a rapier katana in the other. If you really want to go the distance, find a "versatile rapier." A lot of homebrew allows for this, (DM guild weapons supplement for example) but there's also the sun sword (https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/sun-blade) if you have a generous DM at higher levels.

So in summary, here's a 7th level build, assuming standard point buy.

Eladrin Samurai Kojiro
STR 10 (He trains for skill and control rather than brute strength)
DEX 20 (15 base, +2 from elf, +1 from elven accuracy, +2 from ASI. Represents his total devotion to skill)
CON 12 (still tough with a d10 hit die, fighting spirit, second wind, CON save proficiency... but probably doesn't live the healthiest)
INT 8 (kind of ignorant, hasn't really studied outside of swordplay)
WIS 14 (has lived a long life, has good situational awareness)
CHA 14 (+1 from Eladrin. Is pretty and well-spoken. Really believes in his journey of self-improvement.)

Fighting Style: Mariner
Archetype: Samurai
ASI(level 4): Elven Accuracy
ASI(level 6): +2 Dexterity

This character will have moderate AC, great mobility, and decent damage. They won't be the most resilient character, but will start with 16 and get up to 18 by level 6. They'll also have no really bad saves except intelligence and two bonus skill proficiencies (calligraphy being one of them obviously) and they'll function quite well at range in a pinch. When your character stops goofing around and goes "serious mode" you can use "action surge" and "fighting spirit" in the same round for 4 attacks with improved advantage. That's four attacks where your average roll will be a 17 or higher. And you can teleport beforehand!

If you want to go Kensei, you totally can after level 7 without losing anything too pivotal. You miss an ASI but your DEX is already maxed so it isn't a big deal. This will give you a lot of features of varying utility, but most notably will allow you to ditch your scratchy leather armor and to (finally) use a two-handed finesse weapon. Alternately just stick with fighter for the long haul.

[Rfkannen]

Ahhhh. So something along the lines of Sasaki Kojiro as represented in Vagabond? (out of curiosity, who does that baki quote refer to?)

Honestly my take would be to make a Eladrin Samurai. You get that ethereal ageless nature from being an elf, and the teleportation ability plus the sudden burst ability of Samurai really fits the sword saint archetype.

For fighting style I'd either grab TWF or Mariner from UA. For me at least a 'sword saint' can't be someone who wears armor or uses a shield. Personally I favor mariner here. One open hand and a rapier katana in the other. If you really want to go the distance, find a "versatile rapier." A lot of homebrew allows for this, (DM guild weapons supplement for example) but there's also the sun sword (https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/sun-blade) if you have a generous DM at higher levels.

So in summary, here's a 7th level build, assuming standard point buy.

Eladrin Samurai Kojiro
STR 10 (He trains for skill and control rather than brute strength)
DEX 20 (15 base, +2 from elf, +1 from elven accuracy, +2 from ASI. Represents his total devotion to skill)
CON 12 (still tough with a d10 hit die, fighting spirit, second wind, CON save proficiency... but probably doesn't live the healthiest)
INT 8 (kind of ignorant, hasn't really studied outside of swordplay)
WIS 14 (has lived a long life, has good situational awareness)
CHA 14 (+1 from Eladrin. Is pretty and well-spoken. Really believes in his journey of self-improvement.)

Fighting Style: Mariner
Archetype: Samurai
ASI(level 4): Elven Accuracy
ASI(level 6): +2 Dexterity

This character will have moderate AC, great mobility, and decent damage. They won't be the most resilient character, but will start with 16 and get up to 18 by level 6. They'll also have no really bad saves except intelligence and two bonus skill proficiencies (calligraphy being one of them obviously) and they'll function quite well at range in a pinch. When your character stops goofing around and goes "serious mode" you can use "action surge" and "fighting spirit" in the same round for 4 attacks with improved advantage. That's four attacks where your average roll will be a 17 or higher. And you can teleport beforehand!

If you want to go Kensei, you totally can after level 7 without losing anything too pivotal. You miss an ASI but your DEX is already maxed so it isn't a big deal. This will give you a lot of features of varying utility, but most notably will allow you to ditch your scratchy leather armor and to (finally) use a two-handed finesse weapon. Alternately just stick with fighter for the long haul.

Yes exactly!
ironically enough for the comparison you just made, that quote is miyamoto musashi talking about hanayama lol.

That build looks like a lot of fun! I prefer to not use ua, so two weapon fighting would prob be the pick!

I had never considered multiclassing monk and fighter before, I could see it working! How many levels of monk would you suggest? Also would kensei be the best subclass?

[Witty Username]

Pretty much.

Slight tweak to your Attack action:

Sword first; if it hits, and you decide to stun, and the stun works, then you may decide not to bother with Agile Parry.
Second attack: sword or unarmed strike depending on whether you want Agile Parry.

Bonus Action: assuming you spent a ki on at least one of Focused Aim, Deft Strike, or a Stunning Strike attempt, use Ki-Fueled Attack for another sword attack.

This also makes whip a lot better IMO: two attempts (spending a ki), bonus action whip (staying out of reach).

(Note that a similar routine works for ranged, except no Stunning Strike option, just Focused Aim and Deft Strike. Amechra made a thread about that idea a couple of months ago.)
I forgot about Focused Aim. Fair point on stunning strike, I suppose I've gotten too used to fights with multiple opponents.

I think whip is personally more of a late game option, in my mind the non-ascetic value of the kensei is the increased damage and AC at lower levels in comparison to a standard monk, which long sword and its d10 damage mean you are hitting on par with a late game monk even if you don't get much benefit out of it at later levels unless you find a magic long sword.
Maybe grab longbow and long sword at 3rd level and whip at or before 11th when the martial arts dice are getting to the d8 damage point. That would be my thoughts.

A Bladesinger will never be a great sword user, though.

I mean you can be "not bad" with a sword, but you're primarily a wizard who does wizard things. The bonus AC, the Concentration save bonus and the one extra attack doesn't make up for being a d6 caster who lacks anything to help with CON or DEX saves, or the like.
Well great sword no, its a two-handed weapon :smallcool:

Swords in general though, two attacks one with a green flame/ booming blade rider is pretty good on the damage end, I think that is somewhat better than "not bad".

Absorb elements is a pretty good answer to most dex saves, as is high dex if your using a rapier. Most dex saves are for half damage anyway, wizard can just half the damage without the saving throw.
For Con saves, sure in a no feats game but otherwise a lot of wizards take resilient(con) which makes them as good as the fighter on that front.
d6 Hp is a down side, but spells like false life can make up for that too.

Sure we are more or less building a duelist out of a wizard when we could just be a duelist but that doesn't mean a bladesinger can't excel at being a duelist, and you get access to a selection of big gun spells to use like any other wizard.
I think the big problem on the "sword saint" end is that concept feels long sword to me, when bladesinger is going to be a rapier or scimitar build, unless you are a Tortle.

As for the ultimate question:
I would go battlemaster unless armor is a deal breaker, I would use great sword for that flavored as a more Sephiroth style blade. and probably Wood elf for the 25ft movement rate in heavy armor while being tall.
If I could manage 16 dex on the build, I may go medium armor master for visual reasons or if the party wants to do a lot of stealth.

[strangebloke]

Yes exactly!
ironically enough for the comparison you just made, that quote is miyamoto musashi talking about hanayama lol.

That build looks like a lot of fun! I prefer to not use ua, so two weapon fighting would prob be the pick!

TWF is really good at low level but drops off later on. I can't say its a bad pick however as it does 'feel' right for a Kojiro-like.... although a finesse greatsword would actually be ideal. Then again it seems like you're more trying to capture his feel rather than Kojiro exactly. And there's no real way to do the Washing Pole anyway.


Yes exactly!
I had never considered multiclassing monk and fighter before, I could see it working! How many levels of monk would you suggest? Also would kensei be the best subclass?
Monk and fighter work fine together, though monk really doesn't work very well with TWF since you're just going to end up with redundant class features. Though tbh that's really okay.

My recommendation would be, if you're going TWF, take fighter to 8 and pick up Dual Wielder as well as everything else. This gives you +1 damage (because you're using rapiers instead of shortswords) and +1 AC. Then go into monk. You won't get much at first level except the ability to drop your armor, but things get better from there, with +10 movement and a couple of really nice bonus action options. From there.... well, honestly I would cut off at level three. Or four if you want the ASI. There's no reason to go to level 5 and get the extra attack feature again.

The other (even simpler) option for a 'sword saint' that hasn't come up yet is rogue, and more specifically swashbuckler. There's not much to say about it, as it pretty much just works without any clever 'tricks' to the build.

[Omni-Centrist]

My favorite albeit ineffective "sword saint" type sort of trades out the sword and goes for the Rock Lee method: Kick the **** Out Of it. VHuman, fighting Initiate: unarmed fighting style for d8 + dex fists, 1 Level of Monk and the rest in Bladesinger. Its definitely MAD, but just having those combat buff on top of that AC and the saving bonuses and the access to shield feels really good. If you're going against a particularly nasty enemy like a giant, you can even use your Level 6 ability to forgo damage in favor of Blade Ward.

[x3n0n]

I forgot about Focused Aim. Fair point on stunning strike, I suppose I've gotten too used to fights with multiple opponents.

I think whip is personally more of a late game option, in my mind the non-ascetic value of the kensei is the increased damage and AC at lower levels in comparison to a standard monk, which long sword and its d10 damage mean you are hitting on par with a late game monk even if you don't get much benefit out of it at later levels unless you find a magic long sword.
Maybe grab longbow and long sword at 3rd level and whip at or before 11th when the martial arts dice are getting to the d8 damage point. That would be my thoughts.


Agreed on all counts.

The only reason I can think of not to take a d8/d10 versatile as the first melee kensei choice is if I had taken Piercer as a half-feat. (Defensive Duelist goes really well with Kensei and wants a finesse weapon, but I don't see taking it before 8th level, or more likely 12th, so there's plenty of time.)

My typical sequence (assuming no knowledge of specific upcoming or recently-acquired magic weapons) would be longsword&longbow, whip, dagger/shortsword, wildcard.

If I knew of a sweet magic weapon that I could end up with, I'd choose that. (Many in published material are longswords anyway.)

[Man_Over_Game]

Personally, I think that the Ranger has it made for this. You're basically trying to blur the lines between "skilled swordsman" and "master of reality", but Ranger has things like:

Zephyr Strike, Ensaring Strike, Longstrider, Jump, Hunter's Mark
Animal Messenger, Darkvision, Barkskin, Locate Object, Pass Without Trace
Water Walk, Water Breathing
Freedom of Movement, Stoneskin
Steel Wind Strike


You might not like the Ranger's progression, and that is a separate problem worth talking to your DM about, but it's probably the best class for abilities related to adapting one's physicality for any problem as part of its identity.

[stoutstien]

Personally, I think that the Ranger has it made for this. You're basically trying to blur the lines between "skilled swordsman" and "master of reality", but Ranger has things like:

Zephyr Strike, Ensaring Strike, Longstrider, Jump, Hunter's Mark
Animal Messenger, Darkvision, Barkskin, Locate Object, Pass Without Trace
Water Walk, Water Breathing
Freedom of Movement, Stoneskin
Steel Wind Strike


You might not like the Ranger's progression, and that is a separate problem worth talking to your DM about, but it's probably the best class for abilities related to adapting one's physicality for any problem as part of its identity.

I was just thinking about the horizon walker for this concept.

[Man_Over_Game]

I was just thinking about the horizon walker for this concept.

With the changes in Tasha's, I actually kinda like Dual Wield Ranger builds now. Get that +1 AC from the feat, get +1d4 damage per attack at the cost of Concentration from the new Favored Foe feature, get Blindsense out to 10 feet, expertise and 2 languages at level 1, it'd be a frickin' cool blademaster. The kind of guy that saves the day when you least expect it.

Gives me an idea. Go Hunter, get all the stuff above, get Giant Slayer (Once per turn, if an attack hits a creature that was already damaged, deal an extra 1d8), either Escape the Horde (Opportunity Attacks against you have Disadvantage) or Steel Will (You have advantage against being frightened), Whirlwind Strike (Action to make a melee attack against all adjacent enemies, can activate Giant Killer)...

Makes me happy to know that Rangers can actually pull something like that off with little effort now. 3d8 + 3d4 + MOD + 1d8 (~30 damage), against 3 targets per day, at level 5, is pretty damn solid. Yeah, they were always capable of doing it with Hunter's Mark, but now they can use those spell slots/known for something else.

[Valmark]

With the changes in Tasha's, I actually kinda like Dual Wield Ranger builds now. Get that +1 AC from the feat, get +1d4 damage per attack at the cost of Concentration from the new Favored Foe feature, get Blindsense out to 10 feet, expertise and 2 languages at level 1, it'd be a frickin' cool blademaster. The kind of guy that saves the day when you least expect it.


Unfortunately you can Mark with each attack (not that you'd want to since one Mark would cancel out the previous) but the 1d4 damage can only work once on your turn. With Tasha's rangers didn't really get anything that sinergizes with dual wielding beyond having more chances of applying the 'once on your turn' effects.

That I can see at least.

(I mean within the ranger class itself, not that in all of Tasha nothing works with dual wielding).

[Man_Over_Game]

Unfortunately you can Mark with each attack (not that you'd want to since one Mark would cancel out the previous) but the 1d4 damage can only work once on your turn. With Tasha's rangers didn't really get anything that sinergizes with dual wielding beyond having more chances of applying the 'once on your turn' effects.

That I can see at least.

(I mean within the ranger class itself, not that in all of Tasha nothing works with dual wielding).

Darnit, you are correct, I missed that. Even the fey version they added does something similar, once per target per turn (so you can technically deal 1d4 damage to 3 different targets, I suppose).

[Witty Username]

Unfortunately you can Mark with each attack (not that you'd want to since one Mark would cancel out the previous) but the 1d4 damage can only work once on your turn. With Tasha's rangers didn't really get anything that sinergizes with dual wielding beyond having more chances of applying the 'once on your turn' effects.

That I can see at least.

(I mean within the ranger class itself, not that in all of Tasha nothing works with dual wielding).

Yeah, I am still a believer that melee ranger is better off with a great weapon of some sort (I have been wanting to try a halberd ranger for a bit).

Ranger would make an interesting "sword saint" IMO, gloomstalker for cool suprise rounds, get a vibe of move faster than others can think. I didn't want to bring it up though because the conversation was battlemaster vs kensei.

[strangebloke]

Agreed on all counts.

The only reason I can think of not to take a d8/d10 versatile as the first melee kensei choice is if I had taken Piercer as a half-feat. (Defensive Duelist goes really well with Kensei and wants a finesse weapon, but I don't see taking it before 8th level, or more likely 12th, so there's plenty of time.)

My typical sequence (assuming no knowledge of specific upcoming or recently-acquired magic weapons) would be longsword&longbow, whip, dagger/shortsword, wildcard.

If I knew of a sweet magic weapon that I could end up with, I'd choose that. (Many in published material are longswords anyway.)

slight derail but I could make a pretty good argument for taking a whip over a longsword. Having reach at early levels is really really useful, even if it comes at the cost of damage.

[x3n0n]

slight derail but I could make a pretty good argument for taking a whip over a longsword. Having reach at early levels is really really useful, even if it comes at the cost of damage.

I wouldn't sneer at someone who did, although reach melee vs ranged doesn't seem particularly relevant until you get Stunning Strike and/or good ways to trigger Ki-Fueled Attack, both of which happen at Monk 5, to be followed by your next kensei pick at Monk 6.

If I took Slasher at 1st or 4th level, on the other hand, whip kiting with Monk mobility seems like a lot of fun; I'd be happy to spend my first melee kensei weapon on whip at that point for sure. (So I was definitely wrong in saying "the only reason".)

[Kane0]

Mumble grumble, Kensei should've been a fighter subclass.

Don't mind me.

[strangebloke]

I wouldn't sneer at someone who did, although reach melee vs ranged doesn't seem particularly relevant until you get Stunning Strike and/or good ways to trigger Ki-Fueled Attack, both of which happen at Monk 5, to be followed by your next kensei pick at Monk 6.

If I took Slasher at 1st or 4th level, on the other hand, whip kiting with Monk mobility seems like a lot of fun; I'd be happy to spend my first melee kensei weapon on whip at that point for sure. (So I was definitely wrong about saying "the only way".)

reach melee has several potential advantages that are particularly relevant at low level when most creatures have relatively slow movement.

Attacks of opportunity (bonus if you pick up sentinel)
Booming Blade with reach to lock opponents down (high-elf or better yet half-high-elf)
Ability to select targets freely even when surrounded and out of ki.


And yes, slasher also works well here. Whip Kensei is not standard, but it is very good at what it does.

[Quietus]

reach melee has several potential advantages that are particularly relevant at low level when most creatures have relatively slow movement.

Attacks of opportunity (bonus if you pick up sentinel)
Booming Blade with reach to lock opponents down (high-elf or better yet half-high-elf)
Ability to select targets freely even when surrounded and out of ki.


And yes, slasher also works well here. Whip Kensei is not standard, but it is very good at what it does.

Booming blade can't use reach. It is hard coded in the text of the spell that the target has to be within 5 feet.

[x3n0n]

reach melee has several potential advantages that are particularly relevant at low level when most creatures have relatively slow movement.

Attacks of opportunity (bonus if you pick up sentinel)
Booming Blade with reach to lock opponents down (high-elf or better yet half-high-elf)
Ability to select targets freely even when surrounded and out of ki.


And yes, slasher also works well here. Whip Kensei is not standard, but it is very good at what it does.

I had not considered opportunity attacks. That might work. However, without Polearm Master, I haven't noticed a reach weapon being a significant improvement. (They have to leave your 10' reach radius to trigger the OA, not just move around within it, unlike Cavaliers. I've had a hard time getting that to be relevant, especially early in a Monk career when my AC isn't exactly stellar, so they'd rather just hit me anyway.)

There have been several discussions about Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade; most DMs say that the range of Self+5ft means no Booming reach weapons.
I'm also generally skeptical of investing in BB/GFB on non-Eldritch Knight, non-Bladesinger Extra Attack classes; I don't get to Extra Attack and I didn't take the Attack action, so I'm not eligible for the Martial Arts bonus attack nor Flurry of Blows.

Selecting targets freely when surrounded: as a pre-Extra Attack Kensei, if I'm surrounded and out of ki, I think I'm going to be making unarmed strikes for the additional AC rather than trying to reach over people's heads with the whip. (Although that is another distinction I had missed, which I agree is worth mentioning; the whip doesn't have close-quarters disadvantage when I want to hit someone 10' away instead of the mook that's up in my face.)

As I said, I don't think it's a bad pick. To me, it seems lackluster at levels 3 and 4 unless supported by Slasher, and quite good starting at level 5, and I'm usually willing to wait for level 6.

(One more potential win for whip as kensei: if you have d8/d10 versatile proficiency from some other source, like being a Dwarf or High/Wood Elf, then you can use Dedicated Weapon for the versatile and take whip as the kensei pick.)

[strangebloke]

I had not considered opportunity attacks. That might work. However, without Polearm Master, I haven't noticed a reach weapon being a significant improvement. (They have to leave your 10' reach radius to trigger the OA, not just move around within it, unlike Cavaliers. I've had a hard time getting that to be relevant, especially early in a Monk career when my AC isn't exactly stellar, so they'd rather just hit me anyway.)

There have been several discussions about Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade; most DMs say that the range of Self+5ft means no Booming reach weapons.
I'm also generally skeptical of investing in BB/GFB on non-Eldritch Knight, non-Bladesinger Extra Attack classes; I don't get to Extra Attack and I didn't take the Attack action, so I'm not eligible for the Martial Arts bonus attack nor Flurry of Blows.

Selecting targets freely when surrounded: as a pre-Extra Attack Kensei, if I'm surrounded and out of ki, I think I'm going to be making unarmed strikes for the additional AC rather than trying to reach over people's heads with the whip. (Although that is another distinction I had missed, which I agree is worth mentioning; the whip doesn't have close-quarters disadvantage when I want to hit someone 10' away instead of the mook that's up in my face.)

As I said, I don't think it's a bad pick. To me, it seems lackluster at levels 3 and 4 unless supported by Slasher, and quite good starting at level 5, and I'm usually willing to wait for level 6.

(One more potential win for whip as kensei: if you have d8/d10 versatile proficiency from some other source, like being a Dwarf or High/Wood Elf, then you can use Dedicated Weapon for the versatile and take whip as the kensei pick.)

OAs are a huge damage boost at level 1-4 because, hey, extra attack. Sentinel has this sometimes-forgotten-line
When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature. which allows you to get reaction attacks off easier. You don't have a way to get absurd reaction attack damage like Rogues but 1d6+3 isn't bad when it's "free."

BB kiting does work with spell sniper, though this is admittedly a 'cute' build that is funny rather than functional.

As to being surrounded, it depends on what kinds of enemies you're surrounded by. Guards for example are very hard to kill but aren't very threatening. Their primary purpose in a low-level fight is to block up and, well... guard. I'd actually argue their best use is just swarming the PCs and dodging next to them. This is probably a niche problem at most tables, but the dodging guard swarm is one of my favorite DM tricks so my perception of this sort of threat is probably overblown.

[GeneralVryth]

Could a Swords Bard be a thing for this? You can get dueling style, you get bonus speed on an attack action, along with an extra flourish. Extra Attack at 6, and using Magical Secrets you can get things like Steel Wind Strike and use it more often than a Ranger. You can also potentially mix in Tenser's as the level 14 magical secret as a later game option. And this doesn't touch the rest of the Bardic goodness.

[x3n0n]

OAs are a huge damage boost at level 1-4 because, hey, extra attack. Sentinel has this sometimes-forgotten-line which allows you to get reaction attacks off easier. You don't have a way to get absurd reaction attack damage like Rogues but 1d6+3 isn't bad when it's "free."

BB kiting does work with spell sniper, though this is admittedly a 'cute' build that is funny rather than functional.

As to being surrounded, it depends on what kinds of enemies you're surrounded by. Guards for example are very hard to kill but aren't very threatening. Their primary purpose in a low-level fight is to block up and, well... guard. I'd actually argue their best use is just swarming the PCs and dodging next to them. This is probably a niche problem at most tables, but the dodging guard swarm is one of my favorite DM tricks so my perception of this sort of threat is probably overblown.

Agreed that a reaction attack is great. I just don't see many situations where having a 10-foot reach for OAs is going to greatly increase the number of reaction attacks you get. (And the Sentinel line you quoted specifically says that enemy has to be within 5 feet of you, which makes the whip irrelevant for that, unless I'm missing something.) (Also, the whip is still 1d4 at that point; it doesn't get to be 1d6 until level 5, when I've already agreed that it's good.)

The consensus seems to be that the Tasha's errata to Booming Blade and GFB (range is now Self+5ft instead of 5ft) disallows Spell Sniper according to RAW.
That said, having slept on it, I'd test letting one of my players BB/GFB with a whip if they wanted, especially if they're willing to invest a feat slot, but I wouldn't expect a DM at another table to let me do it.
(And all of that said, I still think BB/GFB is not on my list of things I'd want on non-Bladesinger, non-Eldritch-Knight Extra Attack characters, especially Monks who have so many of their features tied up in bonus actions that require the Attack action to unlock. As a non-Shadow Monk with ranged attacks, I would probably prefer Minor Illusion if I had a single cantrip to pick anyway.)

The mob of mooks is definitely a thing; having them all dodge is not a tactic I've encountered yet. I can see how a whip would be useful there, although it seems like it would need to be exceedingly close quarters for it to matter; they'd have to be in the spot immediately behind the mooks for me to reach them with the whip anyway, and they could just back up and risk the single OA from you (which isn't that threatening in tier 1). And as a tier 1 Monk, any mob of at least 3 mooks *still* looks threatening enough that I'd rather have the extra AC.

Again, I agree that whip is a very good kensei/monk weapon; probably the only mandatory pick other than Longbow, in tier 2 and beyond. I just think the opportunity cost of <not> getting to take a more damaging weapon at 3rd level isn't mechanically worth it most of the time. (Modulo Slasher and getting the other weapon "for free" via racial/multiclassing, as I mentioned above.)

[x3n0n]

If you can pick up Spell Sniper, it can get you Booming Blade and increase its reach at the same time. The catch is that you already need to be able to cast an attack spell.

My comment on that was buried in a spoiler tag.

The Tasha's errata is generally considered to have made BB/GFB ineligible for Spell Sniper; the range changed from 5ft to Self(5ft radius).
I'd probably still allow it at my table, but it wouldn't fly in AL.

That is one unfortunate tendency in the text: 5ft is always 5ft in RAW, but sometimes the intent is pretty clearly "the reach of a melee weapon attack that you could make right now", but that's never what is written in the feature. (See for other examples Sentinel reaction attack, Cavalier mark, Echo Knight opportunity attacks.) I can see why they did it (5ft is a lot shorter and easier to understand and covers well over 80% of the cases), but it's annoying for people who would rather just have things work the way that makes sense.

Edit: replying to deleted, but leaving the last paragraph for posterity.

[Man_Over_Game]

Didn't notice the nerf to Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade. Seems kinda silly since it will still work with the Mobile feat, which is already pretty overused, will get more consistent value, and essentially does the same thing (5ft of reach = 10ft of movement).


Edit: replying to deleted, but leaving the last paragraph for posterity.

Sorry about that, still not familiar with all of the changes that happened over the last couple years. Kinda frustrating, honestly. Seems like everything is two steps forward, one step back. All they'd have to do is pay a little more attention (like supporting melee ranger builds a bit more) and they'd be making twice the distance they are now.

[EDIT] You know what's really ****ing stupid? Every single one of the new Ranger features replace an existing feature they already had. Everyone else got new features on top of the old ones (the only exception I've found being the Cleric's Attack/Cantrip feature). Why is it so hard to give a little to the Ranger? The new powers are cool and all, but even then it's mostly more cool than effective (how often is 10ft blindsight going to be useful?)

[x3n0n]

Didn't notice the nerf to Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade. Seems kinda silly since it will still work with the Mobile feat, which is already pretty overused, will get more consistent value, and essentially does the same thing (5ft of reach = 10ft of movement).

Jeremy Crawford discussed this in some interviews when Tasha's was released; it's not intended as a power adjustment, but as actual errata.

Their rationale is that the SCAG version didn't accurately describe what the spell does.
A single-element range like "5 ft" describes where you can place the origin of a spell; BB/GFB clearly originate from you and the weapon you are holding, so the first element of the range must be "Self", and then they needed to put a sensible radius, hence "5 ft" and the notes in my previous reply.

See also the argument about the material component errata; the bit about needing a weapon with a dollar cost is to avoid the loophole that says "any material component that is not consumed and does not have a dollar cost can be replaced with a component pouch or spellcasting focus", but they really want you to be holding a simple or melee weapon that is used to make the attack. That opens up annoying issues with Pact Weapons (which JC has said are definitely eligible because they correspond to something that has a cost in the PHB) and Shadow Blade (which he said he'd happily allow at his table, but did not commit to any changes to RAW or the Sage Advice Compendium that I've seen).

The functional change that I didn't even realize had happened is that the SCAG version has a V component and the errata removed it. I have no idea why they did that.


Every single one of the new Ranger features replace an existing feature they already had. Everyone else got new features on top of the old ones (the only exception I've found being the Cleric's Attack/Cantrip feature). Why is it so hard to give a little to the Ranger? The new powers are cool and all, but even then it's mostly more cool than effective (how often is 10ft blindsight going to be useful?)

Just following up on one little bit: 10ft blindsight is quite possibly the most powerful effect they've added for martial characters in Tasha's. Melee with Blind Fighting in a Fog Cloud is advantage for you on every attack because they can't see you and disadvantage for them when attacking you for the same reason. I've got a Fey Wanderer going right now doing TWF with the Blind Fighting style instead of the TWF style, so he gets an extra attack at advantage; if there happen to be two enemies in the cloud, they're both eligible for the 1d4 psychic.

[Man_Over_Game]

Jeremy Crawford discussed this in some interviews when Tasha's was released; it's not intended as a power adjustment, but as actual errata.

Their rationale is that the SCAG version didn't accurately describe what the spell does.
A single-element range like "5 ft" describes where you can place the origin of a spell; BB/GFB clearly originate from you and the weapon you are holding, so the first element of the range must be "Self", and then they needed to put a sensible radius, hence "5 ft" and the notes in my previous reply.

See also the argument about the material component errata; the bit about needing a weapon with a dollar cost is to avoid the loophole that says "any material component that is not consumed and does not have a dollar cost can be replaced with a component pouch or spellcasting focus", but they really want you to be holding a simple or melee weapon that is used to make the attack. That opens up annoying issues with Pact Weapons (which JC has said are definitely eligible because they correspond to something that has a cost in the PHB) and Shadow Blade (which he said he'd happily allow at his table, but did not commit to any changes to RAW or the Sage Advice Compendium that I've seen).

The functional change that I didn't even realize had happened is that the SCAG version has a V component and the errata removed it. I have no idea why they did that.

Possibly to work off of stealth, although it's probably more of an oversight. They focused on the stuff they were fixing and the stuff that makes it work, forgot everything else. Happens a lot with patches in general.

[x3n0n]

Possibly to work off of stealth, although it's probably more of an oversight.

Assuming that's in reference to the removal of the verbal component, I guess so, but the other changes were clearly not intended to be functional (just making the spell do what it said), and that one is obviously functional. Given how much effort they invested in making the other changes to the spell, going over it with a pretty fine-toothed comb, I assume it wasn't inadvertent.

I think the main functional effect is to allow you to GFB someone in Silence. (Note that Silence makes everybody inside it immune to thunder damage, so BB is irrelevant. Shrug.)

[sophontteks]

Possibly to work off of stealth, although it's probably more of an oversight. They focused on the stuff they were fixing and the stuff that makes it work, forgot everything else. Happens a lot with patches in general.
It already worked off of stealth. Is it inconsistent that V doesn't give stealth away? Maybe. But that's been how they've ruled it. It does break stealth though. Some spells can be cast from stealth without breaking stealth.

[Witty Username]

[EDIT] You know what's really ****ing stupid? Every single one of the new Ranger features replace an existing feature they already had. Everyone else got new features on top of the old ones (the only exception I've found being the Cleric's Attack/Cantrip feature). Why is it so hard to give a little to the Ranger? The new powers are cool and all, but even then it's mostly more cool than effective (how often is 10ft blindsight going to be useful?)

I understand the emotion, although I would point out that several of the replaced Ranger abilities did nothing as written, Hide in Plain Sight & Primeval Awareness to name a couple examples. And that Ranger is still undeniably better than they were previously, ability to completely disappear with an action bonus, action combination, expertise in a skill you plan to use all the time instead of when the DM decides it applies to the terrain you are in, and a few other goodies. Also, there was a legitimate concern with Ranger being made too good with the spell list they have access to.

That being said, I am not sure what abilities you would specifically want to keep.

[Man_Over_Game]

I understand the emotion, although I would point out that several of the replaced Ranger abilities did nothing as written, Hide in Plain Sight & Primeval Awareness to name a couple examples. And that Ranger is still undeniably better than they were previously, ability to completely disappear with an action bonus, action combination, expertise in a skill you plan to use all the time instead of when the DM decides it applies to the terrain you are in, and a few other goodies. Also, there was a legitimate concern with Ranger being made too good with the spell list they have access to.

That being said, I am not sure what abilities you would specifically want to keep.

Grumble...grumble...correct...grumble...