Solo Dragon Campaign

[Skysaber]

Ok, so I am playing a brass dragon wyrmling, weakest of all of the good dragons. They live in deserts, so that's where the campaign is set.

The other dragons that live in deserts? Blues, second most powerful of the evil set.

Obviously, they will come into conflict. By stats alone a blue of equal age is going to win every time. I have 4 HD, a blue wyrmling 6HD, I am tiny with Str 11, he is small with Str 13, my breath weapon does 1D6 fire, his does 2D8 lightning. By having a size category on me, all of his natural weapons deal more damage, etc.

So if I play this straight-up I am going to die, period.

So when the blue trumpeted out his challenge, I failed to show up, and when he invaded my lair, I wasn't there (it's not like I had anything to lose, we started right out of the shell).

No, what I was doing was optimizing like a munchkin. I have discovered two wonderful facts: One, I can fly, and Two, I have a ranged attack (my breath weapon). Using these like an optimizer, I have been seeking out CR 5-7 giant scorpions and performing air strikes on them. They have no ranged attack and I do, so as long as I never land I win. Even if it takes a few rounds between each breath, I will eventually kill it.

This has been earning me XP. Soon I will have enough for a PC class level.

Suggestions?

[Remuko]

Ok, so I am playing a brass dragon wyrmling, weakest of all of the good dragons. They live in deserts, so that's where the campaign is set.

The other dragons that live in deserts? Blues, second most powerful of the evil set.

Obviously, they will come into conflict. By stats alone a blue of equal age is going to win every time. I have 4 HD, a blue wyrmling 6HD, I am tiny with Str 11, he is small with Str 13, my breath weapon does 1D6 fire, his does 2D8 lightning. By having a size category on me, all of his natural weapons deal more damage, etc.

So if I play this straight-up I am going to die, period.

So when the blue trumpeted out his challenge, I failed to show up, and when he invaded my lair, I wasn't there (it's not like I had anything to lose, we started right out of the shell).

No, what I was doing was optimizing like a munchkin. I have discovered two wonderful facts: One, I can fly, and Two, I have a ranged attack (my breath weapon). Using these like an optimizer, I have been seeking out CR 5-7 giant scorpions and performing air strikes on them. They have no ranged attack and I do, so as long as I never land I win. Even if it takes a few rounds between each breath, I will eventually kill it.

This has been earning me XP. Soon I will have enough for a PC class level.

Suggestions?

I played one of those once! Fun times! I didn't play one that young though! Seems like your strat is working. Wish I had some advice.

[Anthrowhale]

Standard advice for a dragon character is to take a level of sorcerer and then take 5 levels of Abjurant Champion. The level of sorcerer stacks with dragon innate casting and the Martial Arcanist capstone provides a quite substantial boost to caster level for all spells. The bonus to armor class may also significantly address a disparity in physical combat.

[Skysaber]

Standard advice for a dragon character is to take a level of sorcerer and then take 5 levels of Abjurant Champion. The level of sorcerer stacks with dragon innate casting and the Martial Arcanist capstone provides a quite substantial boost to caster level for all spells. The bonus to armor class may also significantly address a disparity in physical combat.

Thank you, the Abjurant Champion is exactly the kind of advice I'd needed and been looking for.

I had been leaning towards that level of Sorcerer, in fact my whole plan was to grab a few sorcerer levels early on, but I am playing with stats straight out of the MM, and as a wyrmling my Cha is 10. So I could get cantrips out of that sorcerer level, and it would certainly prove useful in later age categories, but the whole reason I am asking for suggestions is because of that 10 Cha derailing my original plan to stack on sorcerer levels.

Now I am looking at things like my 11 Wis and wondering if I would not be better served in the immediate, short term by a few levels of a divine caster.

Help?

[Buddy76]

Maybe take a level in one of the initiator classes? If I remember correctly, you add one half of your character level to your initiator levels, meaning that even your +2LA will be working in your favor. Crusader's Strike always healing 5 hp, for example, will make a big difference at this level range

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Maybe take a level in one of the initiator classes? If I remember correctly, you add one half of your character level to your initiator levels, meaning that even your +2LA will be working in your favor. Crusader's Strike always healing 5 hp, for example, will make a big difference at this level rangeThis is my suggestion. Go crusader for some self-healing and a ton of tankiness. I'd suggest taking some spellcasting after that, then some jade phoenix mage to mix casting and initiating. If you could take dragon HD instead of a savage progression (which is way too much LA to bother with), I'd suggest taking the draconic archetype from Dragons of Eberron that allows you to take maneuvers instead of spellcasting, then use that to help you qualify for JPM. Unfortunately, savage progressions are the official way to progress as a dragon, and that will destroy your ability to keep up with properly leveled foes.

You could also go for psychic warrior and focus on going for one of the King of Smack-type builds (whether the original King of Smack, the Emperor of Smack, the President of Smack, etc). Dip a bit into some initiator class and a bit of monk and use your powers to bolster you as you lay the smack down on your enemies.

Still, you're a baby dragon, and as such, you're not physically intimidating (as you've already noticed). Non-gish casting or manifesting would be more effective, overall, which is a given (of course), but especially so for you.

What's your general build so far (feats? ability scores?), what do you have available, source-wise, what kinds of things do you want to go for (a jack-of-all-trades build counts), and how much optimizing are you comfortable with?

[Anthrowhale]

... but I am playing with stats straight out of the MM, and as a wyrmling my Cha is 10...
Now I am looking at things like my 11 Wis and wondering if I would not be better served in the immediate, short term by a few levels of a divine caster.

Yeah, the mediocre stats all around are pretty tough.

I think you have the right intuition, but it may help to plan a bit more. In terms of classes, I think you are looking at either Druid or Cleric. But to succeed on that path, it seems you need to actively create and upgrade a periapt of wisdom. This appears just possible---you'll want to pick up Practiced Spellcaster and then Craft Wondrous Item via retraining while devoting your first stat increase at level 4 to Wisdom. This will permit you to make a periapt of wisdom+2 at level 4 and upgrade it over the levels to provide headroom for spell access.

Cleric vs Druid is a difficult tradeoff. In this particular case, Druid seems plausibly better because they have better access to crowd control spells which combo with ranged attacks (aka breath weapons) and eventually wild shape gives you access to good physical stats.

You may also want to pick up Wild Cohort as a feat to beef up your physical combat.

It may be worthwhile to invest a few skill points in craft(armor) as well, so you can make some leather barding.

[Zaile]

I came across the link below a while back doing research for a Dragonspawn character, should help. Also, without some stat increases it is going to be very hard for you to make any class but martial work. As-is you don't even have a +1 except to CON, no bonus to any helpful stats, and if you get spellcasting you can't even cast first level spells. Heck if you get caught in a net, it's over for you. Not just if you fight the blue dragon.

You are tiny and get huge bonuses to stealth skills, make that count.
In combat, sleep + Power attack on a coup-de-grace is your friend. Here are the rules (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Helpless_Defenders).
Rogue for skills/stealth/sneak attack is a damage booster right now, but not later. Power attack and multi-attack are best.
Barbarian 1 for Rage/Whirling frenzy and Lion totem (Pounce) will be mandatory at some point. You can change while flying.
Flyby Attack feat is also mandatory on a natural fliers like dragons.
I'd suggest using your sleep breath as much as possible. However, dragons are immune to sleep, so that does nothing against your dragon opponent.
Monk gives you 2 x 1d6 unarmed strikes on a full-attack, but without multi-attack you are taking -5 to claws and bite. Take multi-attack. You have 2 feats so far from HD.
Your short-term divine caster idea isn't bad, but I would go Druid so you get a second character/beatstick in your animal companion. A riding dog or wolf (trip) will be better than you in melee combat.
Your commoner stats are going to make running your only option very soon. I fear that will lead to a boring, stressful campaign for you.

To sum up
Feats: Power Attack ASAP and Multi-Attack if you take a class level. 2-haner with claw and bite secondary.
Classes: Druid 1, Barb 1, Rogue 1, or Monk 1
Stats: Bribe DM for standard array
Read below handbook

I also second sorcerer > Abjurant Champion > Initiator class, but without some sort of stat boost, you won't be able to even cast 1st level spells.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-(WIP)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry
What's your general build so far (feats? ability scores?), what do you have available, source-wise, what kinds of things do you want to go for (a jack-of-all-trades build counts), and how much optimizing are you comfortable with?

Indeed, all of this would be really good to know.


Originally Posted by Zaile
Your short-term divine caster idea isn't bad, but I would go Druid so you get a second character/beatstick in your animal companion. A riding dog or wolf (trip) will be better than you in melee combat.

Druid would definitely be a solid option, and it also allows you to take a phynxkin for an animal companion, which would be thematic for a dragon.

[Skysaber]

What's your general build so far (feats? ability scores?), what do you have available, source-wise, what kinds of things do you want to go for (a jack-of-all-trades build counts), and how much optimizing are you comfortable with?

My ability scores are those in the Monster Manual, no luck there. But feats and skills are flexible. My DM doesn't lock those choices in for the first couple of sessions, so I still have room to change, and they can be anything I choose for them to be.

Sources to draw on? As near as I can tell, the table operates on "If the DM owns a copy, it's legal to use." And, I note, he has an extensive library.

Optimization levels I am comfortable with? I think the line gets drawn somewhere around Emperor Tippy. There is not much I'll choke on.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You might consider taking Ancestral Relic and investing in something easily upgraded. If you go sorcerer, a runestaff you can continually add spells to, for instance. Tons of potential spells known. Especially nice if you enhance it as a +1 sizing/morphing staff and turn it into a poison ring (from Dragon Compendium) so you can wear it on a foreclaw instead of having to lug it around in staff form.

[Quertus]

Tough call.

Sorcerer would be nice… later. But useless now.

Any source of healing is huge… if you ever deal with anything that can hurt you. Which, cleverly, you are avoiding. Btw, is your fly speed *faster* than the blue?

Rogue Stealth & Sneak Attack is really good. +Xd6 on each attack, if you have initiative or a flanking buddy. Or… use Thug to get Sneak Attack and full BAB. Take feats to get a Crusader maneuver / stance to heal 2 HP on every attack. Use feats to get an animal companion flanking buddy. Use feats to reduce attack penalties from secondary natural weapons. Hope that that massive melee damage boost will let you kill the blue when the day of reckoning finally arrives.

How long (how many years) does your hatchling have before it has to spend those levels on age category (and get stat boosts)?

Assuming you've got time (you just hatched, right?), I think the self-healing SA Rogue Thug is what I'd go with. Although arguably Cleric, Ur-Priest, and even Diplomacer are probably better.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about loredrake? Greater rite of passage? Spellhoarding? White dragonspawn? Dragonspawn abomination? (Is it possible to get the last two onto a non-kobold dragon?)

Tons of extra sorcerer levels.

[Anthrowhale]

A higher-op approach would be a Riddled (Dragon #313) Tome Dragon (Dragon #343). That would give you a caster level of 3 with bonus access to _every_ Conjuration and Divination sorcerer spell, telepathy 100' (take Mindsight), and casting based off an intelligence of 22.

[Palanan]

For those of us with no experience playing dragon characters, or running games with them…about what character level is a wyrmling equivalent to?

Also, both for dragon characters and for wyrmlings in general—is there any training or received lore from adult dragons? Or are the wyrmlings completely on their own from the moment of hatching?

[Particle_Man]

Warlocks don’t need good stats, fwiw. Maybe get some of that first, then when stats improve go with sorcerer and eldritch theurge?


Also, maybe try adventuring somewhere the blue dragons are not. :smallsmile:

Edit: Some of this will depend on how time flows in your game. Is the DM a day by day DM such that by level 20 you will still be the same age category, or might they occasionally say “Ok years pass and you gain an age category”?

[Skysaber]

A higher-op approach would be a Riddled (Dragon #313) Tome Dragon (Dragon #343). That would give you a caster level of 3 with bonus access to _every_ Conjuration and Divination sorcerer spell, telepathy 100' (take Mindsight), and casting based off an intelligence of 22.

I was not offered my choice of dragons. If I had, I certainly would not have chosen brass... although it has been proving interesting.

No templates available either.

So I get to play a dragon, but it is on hard mode.


For those of us with no experience playing dragon characters, or running games with them…about what character level is a wyrmling equivalent to?

Standard 3.5 equation is to add racial HD to LA to get equivalent character level. As a brass wyrmling, I've got 4 racial HD, and a LA of +2, so am considered roughly equal to a 6th level character.

Contrast this to my primary opponent. A blue wyrmling gets 6 racial HD, and has a +4 LA, so is considered a 10th level character.

And I only just learned this session there is more than one of them out there. An entire clutch, apparently.

My one advantage so far is that I am faster, 150ft base fly speed as opposed to their 100ft.

Thankfully, game rules are 3.p, so the table has allowed that Spot, Listen and Search are all rolled together into Perception, and I've got that maxed out. So I'll be harder to surprise. That will make it harder for them to ambush me, and so ought to be able to run from most fights.

The perverse part of me is toying with the concept of taking a level of Cleric, just so I could trade in Turn Undead for Rebuke Dragons, then take Quicken Turning, so I'd get a free attempt in before taking my Run action to flee. As it would be a lot easier if I could nab one of them as my commanded servant.

But there are probably better strategies.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The perverse part of me is toying with the concept of taking a level of Cleric, just so I could trade in Turn Undead for Rebuke Dragons, then take Quicken Turning, so I'd get a free attempt in before taking my Run action to flee. As it would be a lot easier if I could nab one of them as my commanded servant.

But there are probably better strategies.Undead clerics that turn undead aren't immune to their own turning. (In fact, they turn themselves first.)

I...don't think that's the best of ideas.

[Anthrowhale]

If your alignment allows, a level of Crusader and then Ur-Priest might work well? Also, can you use level buy-off rules?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Zaile
You can change while flying.

I assume you mean “charge” here, rather than “change.”


Originally Posted by Zaile
Your short-term divine caster idea isn't bad, but I would go Druid so you get a second character/beatstick in your animal companion. A riding dog or wolf (trip) will be better than you in melee combat.

Druid is good for a lot of reasons, but a dog or wolf won’t be able to keep up in the air. All too quicky there may be a situation when the brass wyrmling needs to scramble for altitude and head for the horizon, which would leave the dog or wolf in a bad place.

The more coldhearted sorts won’t care about that, but if you want to play your brass dragon as good, abandoning an animal companion could cause some issues.


Originally Posted by Skysaber
Thankfully, game rules are 3.p….

This is good news, because you can take one level of druid, and that plus Shaping Focus will let you continue in a different class but still pick up wildshape when you’re the appropriate level. (Assuming DM approval, of course.) That may take a while to reach, but opens up lots of other options for fleeing and hiding. Sparrows are inconspicuous, and since blue dragons don't seem to be good swimmers, becoming a catfish is another good way to avoid being noticed.

You can also choose a domain rather than an animal companion, which might be a little easier for you to stay mobile without worrying about leaving a companion behind.

Per my second question, does your wyrmling have any support or guidance from parents or other older dragons? Or are you completely on your own?

[Skysaber]

Undead clerics that turn undead aren't immune to their own turning. (In fact, they turn themselves first.)

I...don't think that's the best of ideas.

Yikes! Ok, Important safety tip. Thanks Egon.


Per my second question, does your wyrmling have any support or guidance from parents or other older dragons? Or are you completely on your own?

I infer that my parents are dead, killed off by my rival's parents (who might still be around, dunno). But D&D has flipped back and forth on the issue of whether or not dragons grant any parenting to their young, so anyone could call it either way and quote sources. But overall, the impression that is currently supported by the game rules is that dragons provide no effectual parenting whatsoever.

After all, you don't encounter a CR 15... and two CR 3s. So, since they are not encountered together, they must not live together, ergo no relationship exists that we humans would endorse as proper child rearing.

So, the consensus appears to be that I should go with either Crusader, or Druid. I have to admit I've not got a lot of experience with maneuvers. If I go that way, how should my build look?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yikes! Ok, Important safety tip. Thanks Egon.



I infer that my parents are dead, killed off by my rival's parents (who might still be around, dunno). But D&D has flipped back and forth on the issue of whether or not dragons grant any parenting to their young, so anyone could call it either way and quote sources. But overall, the impression that is currently supported by the game rules is that dragons provide no effectual parenting whatsoever.

After all, you don't encounter a CR 15... and two CR 3s. So, since they are not encountered together, they must not live together, ergo no relationship exists that we humans would endorse as proper child rearing.

So, the consensus appears to be that I should go with either Crusader, or Druid. I have to admit I've not got a lot of experience with maneuvers. If I go that way, how should my build look?You could always go bard and gain ranks in Diplomacy. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629249-Brass-Dragon-villages)

[Skysaber]

You could always go bard and gain ranks in Diplomacy. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629249-Brass-Dragon-villages)

Thanks for the advice! I read the thread, tried the advice, and it worked great!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Thanks for the advice! I read the thread, tried the advice, and it worked great!Details? ?????

[Palanan]

Campaign journal?

:smalltongue:

[Fouredged Sword]

Rebuke dragon is problematic due to self targeting, but there is another rebuke that will work just as well against a blue dragon that won't effect a brass dragon at all.

You have the fire subtype. Blue dragons have the earth subtype. The earth domain will grant you the ability to rebuke air creatures like an evil cleric rebukes undead, cowing them or controlling them. The Air domain can be taken to instead turn earth creatures as a good cleric turns undead.

You don't even need to take levels of cleric. The feat "planer touchstone" can grant you the ability to use any one domain, and Earth or Air are easy enough options.

They are also good sources of long term minions as they grant you control pools that you can use to control ether tanky earth elementals or high mobility air elementals.