Alternative takes on 1230

[Precure]

:elan: "Hey Roy! Remember when I blew up the dungeon of Dorukan and killed everyone inside?"

:belkar: "Hey Roy! Remember how I killed countless people?"

:roy:

[ziproot]

:elan: "Hey Roy! Remember when I blew up the dungeon of Dorukan and killed everyone inside?"

:belkar: "Hey Roy! Remember how I killed countless people?"

:roy:

:vaarsuvius: Hey Roy! Remember when you blew up Girard's gate and then the Gods almost destroyed the world?

I mean, it's not exactly how Vaarsuvius would speak but they're the one who was against destroying the gate.

[dancrilis]

:elan: "Hey Roy! Remember when I blew up the dungeon of Dorukan and killed everyone inside?"

:belkar: "Hey Roy! Remember how I killed countless people?"

:roy:

:haley: My leadership ultimately lead to three entire resistance movements being destroyed.

:vaarsuvius: I killed more and destroyed the defenders of the last gate.

:durkon: I almost destroyed the world.

:roy: In fairness the godsmoot was only called because of me.

Serini (springs trap): And that is why you don't get to stay near my Gate.

[Fyraltari]

:haley: My leadership ultimately lead to three entire resistance movements being destroyed.
Huh, that one ain't true. She had nothing to do with their destruction.

[dancrilis]

Huh, that one ain't true. She had nothing to do with their destruction.

It is stretching a point as I couldn't really think of anything for her that stood out.

Effectively there were three resistance groups, Haley lead one of them - due to Haley's desire to free some slaves, Mr Scruffy was present at the base for the meeting of the three groups which lead to them joining together under Ho Thanh's leadership.

Had Haley not sought to free those slaves it is possible that the resistance groups would not have combined - so her leadership had a direct impact on them getting wiped out.

Haley does seem to have some (unjustified) guilt over this even when she knows it wasn't her fault - panels 2, 3 and 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0941.html), so her mentioning in the the context of the above I think holds up (better in fact then Durkon claiming to have almost destroyed the world).

[Fyraltari]

She's beating herself up for not having been there, so she's blaming their death not on her leadership but on her stopping to be their leader, really. :smalltongue:

[TRH]

Haley did almost get her half of the party wiped out and lose the chance to ever resurrect Roy because she couldn't bring herself to mention that the Greysky City thieves' guild had marked her for death. And had that happened, Xykon would have had nothing standing between him and seizing Girard's Gate shortly thereafter.

[Shadowknight12]

:elan: "Hey Roy! Remember when I blew up the dungeon of Dorukan and killed everyone inside?"

I believe the book commentary specifically retcons this to remove any deaths from Elan's conscience.

[TRH]

I believe the book commentary specifically retcons this to remove any deaths from Elan's conscience.

What does it say, exactly? Because Elan would have had no way to know the dungeon was deserted by that point, and ample reason to believe otherwise, between the goblin teenagers, the goblin ninjas that shanked him near the beginning, the guardians of the Fire sigil, Dorukan's outdated monsters, all the female monsters sharing a bathroom with Haley...I don't see how we get to glide past the simple fact that there were still monsters in the dungeon and Elan didn't give any of them a moment's thought before he blasted them all to smithereens.

[Shadowknight12]

What does it say, exactly? Because Elan would have had no way to know the dungeon was deserted by that point, and ample reason to believe otherwise, between the goblin teenagers, the goblin ninjas that shanked him near the beginning, the guardians of the Fire sigil, Dorukan's outdated monsters, all the female monsters sharing a bathroom with Haley...I don't see how we get to glide past the simple fact that there were still monsters in the dungeon and Elan didn't give any of them a moment's thought before he blasted them all to smithereens.

I don't have the book myself, but another poster mentioned that apparently the self-destruct alarm gave all the monsters enough opportunity to escape. I'm uncertain if the commentary also confirms that Elan is aware of this, but since it did state that the objective was to clear Elan's conscience, I'm inclined to assume he is.

[TRH]

I don't have the book myself, but another poster mentioned that apparently the self-destruct alarm gave all the monsters enough opportunity to escape. I'm uncertain if the commentary also confirms that Elan is aware of this, but since it did state that the objective was to clear Elan's conscience, I'm inclined to assume he is.

And yet Roy didn't know until Elan told him? That's ridiculously convenient, especially juxtaposed against Familicide and how we're not to make excuses for that.

[AstralFire]

And yet Roy didn't know until Elan told him? That's ridiculously convenient, especially juxtaposed against Familicide and how we're not to make excuses for that.

Familicide was played for drama in an arc that was very dramatic that sprang out of a smaller arc that was semi-dramatic, in the aftermath of the most dramatic failure the Order had ever had.

The Dungeon of Dorukan was half gags.

[TRH]

Familicide was played for drama in an arc that was very dramatic that sprang out of a smaller arc that was semi-dramatic, in the aftermath of the most dramatic failure the Order had ever had.

The Dungeon of Dorukan was half gags.

And yet the Order got dragged to another continent in chains to face criminal charges for the very action we're discussing here. That's not the most convincing defense either.

I'm not saying the two incidents are remotely equivalent, but when one act of mass murder is the centerpiece of a lengthy arc and endless discussions of how we shouldn't rationalize away the callousness intrinsic in so much hack & slash D&D gameplay and fantasy literature, while another one has the author personally make rationalizations that aren't especially credible in-universe, well, that rather irks me, to say the least. If so much of the story is supposed to explore things like the intrinsic worth and value of "mooks," then why are we ignoring a straight invocation of one of the most pervasive tropes that would mass-kill mooks in an action story?

[AstralFire]

They faced a kangaroo court as an excuse to move the plot along in universe.

The Dungeon of Dorukan wasn't *without consequence*, but those consequences chiefly were not moral. There's a huge leap between intentionally committing genocide and accidentally triggering a self-destruct even before taking into account the tonal shifts.

[TRH]

I should add that I don't demand an analogous redemption arc for Elan over this, but come on. We can at least acknowledge he made a callous error and not just a stupid one.

[Peelee]

I should add that I don't demand an analogous redemption arc for Elan over this, but come on. We can at least acknowledge he made a callous error and not just a stupid one.

Oh most definitely.

[Shadowknight12]

Personally I find it a bit strange to wish for monsters to be dead so that we can point a finger at a character and say "you murderer!" when it would be objectively better for those monsters to be alive and well. Which is how it currently is right now in the story.

[TRH]

Whether the monsters are alive or not is beside the point. The point is that Elan had no evident way of knowing whether they would be alive or not when he pressed that rune, and we're better off accepting that yes, he was thoughtless enough not to take that into consideration at the time, regardless of the ultimate results. To paraphrase Vaarsuvius, it is entirely in keeping with what we know of him.

[Shadowknight12]

You don't need the monsters to be dead to focus on Elan's thoughtlessness, you can do that just fine right now. If your concern is the treatment of monster races, then them being alive and surviving the explosion instead of being killed for Elan's character development is a good thing, which means the commentary is actually better for people who do like monster races.

[TRH]

You don't need the monsters to be dead to focus on Elan's thoughtlessness, you can do that just fine right now. If your concern is the treatment of monster races, then them being alive and surviving the explosion instead of being killed for Elan's character development is a good thing, which means the commentary is actually better for people who do like monster races.

Again you miss the point. My complaint is about this in-book commentary that I'm told claimed that Elan knew the monsters would all escape the dungeon unharmed. If that is the case, then no, I cannot focus on Elan's thoughtlessness, because he was not thoughtless at all, at least on this question. That excuse-making is the subject of my complaint.

[Shadowknight12]

Again you miss the point. My complaint is about this in-book commentary that I'm told claimed that Elan knew the monsters would all escape the dungeon unharmed. If that is the case, then no, I cannot focus on Elan's thoughtlessness, because he was not thoughtless at all, at least on this question. That excuse-making is the subject of my complaint.

I'm not saying that he *knew* they'd survive, I'm saying that they did. We'd need to ask someone with the book for an exact word-for-word quote, but my understanding is that Elan didn't think things through when he activated the rune, but since nobody died as a consequence of his actions, he shrugged it off.

[TRH]

I'm not saying that he *knew* they'd survive, I'm saying that they did. We'd need to ask someone with the book for an exact word-for-word quote, but my understanding is that Elan didn't think things through when he activated the rune, but since nobody died as a consequence of his actions, he shrugged it off.

But that's exactly what you inferred earlier!


I don't have the book myself, but another poster mentioned that apparently the self-destruct alarm gave all the monsters enough opportunity to escape. I'm uncertain if the commentary also confirms that Elan is aware of this, but since it did state that the objective was to clear Elan's conscience, I'm inclined to assume he is.

Maybe you were wrong to infer that, but if you weren't, then I have a problem. If you were wrong, then that's that, I suppose, without more context.

[Shadowknight12]

But that's exactly what you inferred earlier!

Maybe you were wrong to infer that, but if you weren't, then I have a problem. If you were wrong, then that's that, I suppose, without more context.

Uh, you realize that Elan can choose to have his conscience cleared because he found out his actions resulted in no deaths after Dorukan's castle was destroyed, right? That's what I meant to say with that post.

If you disagree with Elan's logic and you think he should still feel bad because he thoughtlessly activated an explosive that could have killed innocents without sparing a thought to their survival and it was only good fortune that they all made it out alive, that's quite fine, but it is possible he cleared his conscience afterwards, not beforehand.

[TRH]

Uh, you realize that Elan can choose to have his conscience cleared because he found out his actions resulted in no deaths after Dorukan's castle was destroyed, right? That's what I meant to say with that post.

If you disagree with Elan's logic and you think he should still feel bad because he thoughtlessly activated an explosive that could have killed innocents without sparing a thought to their survival and it was only good fortune that they all made it out alive, that's quite fine, but it is possible he cleared his conscience afterwards, not beforehand.

Then your post was rather unclear, because when you talked about whether Elan was aware of "this," whether this means the existence of some sort of silent alarm or the monsters being saved by it, I took it to be discussion of whether Elan was aware when he hit the rune that the monsters would survive his actions. If this is to clear his conscience after the fact, then, well, I suppose it might help some, but the callousness of the moment would remain, and really should hang on his conscience if he's gained any perspective at all along the way.

[Shadowknight12]

Then your post was rather unclear, because when you talked about whether Elan was aware of "this," whether this means the existence of some sort of silent alarm or the monsters being saved by it, I took it to be discussion of whether Elan was aware when he hit the rune that the monsters would survive his actions. If this is to clear his conscience after the fact, then, well, I suppose it might help some, but the callousness of the moment would remain, and really should hang on his conscience if he's gained any perspective at all along the way.

Fair enough, my bad for not being more clear!

[ziproot]

I personally think that destroying the rune was a Chaotic Stupid act, not an evil one. Elan's alignment was basically Chaotic Stupid for a good portion of the book. 1230 is basically describing how Elan has realized that what he was doing was just that -- stupid. In fact, the example tvtropes uses for Chaotic Stupid is Elan (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticStupid).

[ebarde]

OP structured this exactly like a Family Guy cutaway gag

[Ortho]

I believe the book commentary specifically retcons this to remove any deaths from Elan's conscience.

Which book is this in? I'm not able to find it. The closest I could find was the commentary in book 1, which only says that Rich blew up the castle because he wanted the action to move on to a different location.

[hroþila]

I should add that I don't demand an analogous redemption arc for Elan over this, but come on. We can at least acknowledge he made a callous error and not just a stupid one.
Hence the ending to BRitF.

[Emanick]

Which book is this in? I'm not able to find it. The closest I could find was the commentary in book 1, which only says that Rich blew up the castle because he wanted the action to move on to a different location.

I’m pretty sure it’s actually from a forum post Rich made some years ago. Shame I’m out of spell slots for the day, or I’d cast Summon Banana.

[Ghosty]

And here I thought the thread was going to be on further expansion of Elan's point in Panel 3: "...there's important reminiscing about the old days that needs to happen before the final battle..."

The big skeleton in the closet (as distinct from the big skeleton trying to murder them) has to be Belkar's prophecy, and the Order actively keeping their knowledge of it from him, right?

[dancrilis]

The big skeleton in the closet (as distinct from the big skeleton trying to murder them) has to be Belkar's prophecy, and the Order actively keeping their knowledge of it from him, right?

Depending on how much attention he was paying at the time Roy did tell him there was a prophecy and implied it involved Belkar's death (panel 16 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html)).

[Kish]

I don't have the book myself, but another poster mentioned that apparently the self-destruct alarm gave all the monsters enough opportunity to escape.
Let me try to cut the following argument about this uncontested fact short with one word:

No.

It's forum scenario-spinning, essentially fanfic, which has been promoted to Rich-confirmed fact by Telephone Game, as you just demonstrated ("I don't have the book myself, but another poster mentioned...").

(Nor is it a post Rich made. It has never gotten any support of any kind from Rich.)

[Ghosty]

Depending on how much attention he was paying at the time Roy did tell him there was a prophecy and implied it involved Belkar's death (panel 16 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html)).

Yeah, that struck me at the time it came out, but Belkar never reacted to it. Or as far as I know, asked Roy, then or later, what he was babbling about. Weird. Of course, Belkar was a little busy at the time.

[Shadowknight12]

I tried doing a forum search of that post to link it here and now I can't find it. :smallsigh:

EDIT:


Let me try to cut the following argument about this uncontested fact short with one word:

No.

It's forum scenario-spinning, essentially fanfic, which has been promoted to Rich-confirmed fact by Telephone Game, as you just demonstrated ("I don't have the book myself, but another poster mentioned...").

(Nor is it a post Rich made. It has never gotten any support of any kind from Rich.)

What a strangely aggressive tone when you could've just explained it much more calmly. :smallconfused:

[Emanick]

Let me try to cut the following argument about this uncontested fact short with one word:

No.

It's forum scenario-spinning, essentially fanfic, which has been promoted to Rich-confirmed fact by Telephone Game, as you just demonstrated ("I don't have the book myself, but another poster mentioned...").

(Nor is it a post Rich made. It has never gotten any support of any kind from Rich.)

I distinctly remember reading just such a post. I don’t think I made it up - I remember a little too much of the context to believe that easily, though still not enough that I’m inclined to dig for it - but since I’m not willing to spend that time, until somebody else finds it I suppose I can’t blame you for thinking that there’s some kind of Mandela effect going on.

[Dr.Zero]

I distinctly remember reading just such a post. I don’t think I made it up - I remember a little too much of the context to believe that easily, though still not enough that I’m inclined to dig for it - but since I’m not willing to spend that time, until somebody else finds it I suppose I can’t blame you for thinking that there’s some kind of Mandela effect going on.

I've tried

Keyword(s): Elan, rune, alarm; User: Shadowknight12 (I used this for comparison) gives exactly 1 match, this thread

Same search, using User: The Giant, gave exactly nothing (some kind of error about userid, which I thought was because Rich was shielded by a forum version of the Cloister, so I tried a less strict search for more comparions, and his post appeared, so I deduce the error was because there was no post at all which respected the criteria). (Edit: even better, trying again now I get exactly the supposed "Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms." maybe the first time I really messed up the name)

Of course this doesn't prove it doesn't exist, but I'd say it's close enough.

[Kish]

I tried doing a forum search of that post to link it here and now I can't find it. :smallsigh:

EDIT:



What a strangely aggressive tone when you could've just explained it much more calmly. :smallconfused:
What a strange reaction to a straightforward explanation that the claimed thing doesn't exist.

Honestly, since both you and Emanick are doubling down on claims that it does, it appears that this idea will take dynamite to shift it.

(It's still wrong though.)

[ziproot]

What a strange reaction to a straightforward explanation that the claimed thing doesn't exist.

Honestly, since both you and Emanick are doubling down on claims that it does, it appears that this idea will take dynamite to shift it.

(It's still wrong though.)

They did a forum search and concluded that it doesn't exist. That doesn't look like "doubling down on claims that it does" to me.

EDIT: Oops, wrong person. My bad. Found nothing either, and that was after I made sure it included all threads in the Order of the Stick sub-forum instead of just open threads that are not too old.

EDIT 2: I just looked through the last part of the first book and it said nothing about clearing Elan's conscience. The reason Rich had the gate blown up was so that they could just leave without having tons of extra strips about them going back for treasure and XP.

[Dr.Zero]

Found nothing either, and that was after I made sure it included all threads in the Order of the Stick sub-forum instead of just open threads that are not too old.

EDIT 2: I just looked through the last part of the first book and it said nothing about clearing Elan's conscience. The reason Rich had the gate blown up was so that they could just leave without having tons of extra strips about them going back for treasure and XP.

Which is good, because, honestly, I'd jumped on TRH's vagon about "retconning things this way sucks", the only thing that stopped me is that I've already criticized Rich in some other occasions (I can't remember them, but I'm quite sure I've done it) and I didn't want to look like a hater.

But, yeah, now that we all agree it didn't happen, I can say it freely: such a retcon would have been terrible.

[Shadowknight12]

What a strange reaction to a straightforward explanation that the claimed thing doesn't exist.

Honestly, since both you and Emanick are doubling down on claims that it does, it appears that this idea will take dynamite to shift it.

(It's still wrong though.)

I'm not doubling down, I actually admitted in the very post you quoted that I could not find the post I was referring to. My only comment re: your post was about its needlessly aggressive tone.

EDIT:


EDIT: Oops, wrong person. My bad. Found nothing either, and that was after I made sure it included all threads in the Order of the Stick sub-forum instead of just open threads that are not too old.

This was my result as well. I think what happened was that it was a post in the 1229 thread amidst the Serini arguments, and the poster made the comment off-handedly, later realized it was mistaken and then edited out, which is why it can't be found anymore.

[Emanick]

Yeah, I didn't intend to come across as "doubling down" either. I remember it fairly clearly (and it seems like others appear to, too), but since nobody can find any evidence of the post (I looked for a bit myself, but gave up after the last six threads were 10+ pages, too long to go through easily), it's certainly possible that I'm just misremembering something else.

I'm happy to assume that that post never actually happened, because I agree with everyone else that "every single monster in the Dungeon of Dorukan escaped just in time" just sounds like an implausible retcon.


I'm not doubling down, I actually admitted in the very post you quoted that I could not find the post I was referring to. My only comment re: your post was about its needlessly aggressive tone.

Kish is very direct. I think they often come across as being aggressive without necessarily intending to seem that way. I'm that way myself sometimes.

[arimareiji]

If we're doing alternative takes on 1230, I think I have a doozy:

The Giant is deliberately sending up the Weis/Hickman (et al, but to me theirs are particularly vivid) trope of "Apparent simpleton who says and does lots of things the party think are foolish is actually much smarter than everyone, and if you have the benefit of hindsight (or live beyond the 4th wall) everything he does actually makes sense. To boot, his apparent idiocy has actually been clever/subtle benevolent manipulation all along." (viz. Fizban in Dragonlance, or Simkin in the Darksword trilogy)

[Calzone]

Yeah, I didn't intend to come across as "doubling down" either. I remember it fairly clearly (and it seems like others appear to, too), but since nobody can find any evidence of the post (I looked for a bit myself, but gave up after the last six threads were 10+ pages, too long to go through easily), it's certainly possible that I'm just misremembering something else.

I'm happy to assume that that post never actually happened, because I agree with everyone else that "every single monster in the Dungeon of Dorukan escaped just in time" just sounds like an implausible retcon.



Kish is very direct. I think they often come across as being aggressive without necessarily intending to seem that way. I'm that way myself sometimes.


Looks like you could be thinking of this thread https://forums.giantitp.com/archive/index.php/t-282955.html

Humorously, there's even this quote as part of a very similar discussion.

I don't know, every other monster in the throne room was already dead. I don't think any of the occupants of the Dungeon could have passed through the room to get to the escape tunnel without the Order noticing. Besides, how would they have known that the self-destruct lever had been pulled?

I have found forum searches to sometimes be inaccurate. a Google search with 'site:https://forums.giantitp.com/' plus relevant keywords usually gets me close.

[ziproot]

Looks like you could be thinking of this thread https://forums.giantitp.com/archive/index.php/t-282955.html

Humorously, there's even this quote as part of a very similar discussion.


I have found forum searches to sometimes be inaccurate. a Google search with 'site:https://forums.giantitp.com/' plus relevant keywords usually gets me close.

I think we all searched for a quote from The Giant specifically, and it doesn't look like The Giant responded to that thread. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

EDIT: Capitalization

[Lexible]

Hey! So, I largely agree with not giving Elan a pass. That said:


Whether the monsters are alive or not is beside the point.

Not to the monsters, it isn't.

[Emanick]

Humorously, there's even this quote as part of a very similar discussion.

I don't know, every other monster in the throne room was already dead. I don't think any of the occupants of the Dungeon could have passed through the room to get to the escape tunnel without the Order noticing. Besides, how would they have known that the self-destruct lever had been pulled?

Welp, good to know that I at least agree with the logic of me-from-eight-years-ago. :smalltongue:

[Calzone]

I think we all searched for a quote from The Giant specifically, and it doesn't look like The Giant responded to that thread. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

EDIT: Capitalization

Oh no, he didn't, but given the similarities to some of this thread's conversation I figured it may have been a factor in why some other posters had a gnawing feeling about it. It really just amused me to see some of the same people having a similar conversation on the same forum nearly a decade later :smallsmile:

I'll hop back to lurking now.

[Dr.Zero]

Not to the monsters, it isn't.

But the monsters don't exist as monsters, but only as pieces of imagination used to create a story.

The people killed by V died to show as V lost control of his power, this doesn't make Rich cruel for snuffing them off for good.

The monster killed by Elan died because Elan was an uncaring simple minded buffoon (in story), in meta I don't know, maybe because Rich didn't think of the consequences (in some way like Elan, which is ironic, I think), or maybe to reinforce the fact that the heroes themselves have still a lot to learn -from Serini, maybe- about monster's right.

Because, let's keep in mind, the heroes captured humans and other enemis Playable races (the sorceress and her dad, the druid, the half elf) but killed without a second thought their enemies when they were monsters.
And let's keep in mind that V killed the young dragon, sure, but only because V was the only one able to do so, the remaining members of the OOTS would have done the same, given the power to do so-

But, anyway, the monsters' deaths tell a story and no one really suffered, so no need to "save them" with a retcon.

[Precure]

There is literally a thread that tracks down Rich Burlews' posts about the comic. If such a retcon exist, it would be added there already.

[Peelee]

There is literally a thread that tracks down Rich Burlews' posts about the comic. If such a retcon exist, it would be added there already.

And I can now safely state that neither the original book nor the digital re-release with extra commentary says anything about it.

[arimareiji]

But the monsters don't exist as monsters, but only as pieces of imagination used to create a story.

The people killed by V died to show as V lost control of his power, this doesn't make Rich cruel for snuffing them off for good.
Indeed, but for the most part these forum discussions seem to be predicated on "If these were real events, how should the other characters feel about them?"


Because, let's keep in mind, the heroes captured humans and other enemis Playable races (the sorceress and her dad, the druid, the half elf) but killed without a second thought their enemies when they were monsters.
And let's keep in mind that V killed the young dragon, sure, but only because V was the only one able to do so, the remaining members of the OOTS would have done the same, given the power to do so-

But, anyway, the monsters' deaths tell a story and no one really suffered, so no need to "save them" with a retcon.
If you ask me, this is a powerful critique of the foundation of the vast majority of fantasy stories in this vein. But no one did (^_~) -- and in any event, I don't want to misrepresent you since I believe your overall point is "When judging their actions, we should keep in mind that these are fictional characters."

[Dr.Zero]

Indeed, but for the most part these forum discussions seem to be predicated on "If these were real events, how should the other characters feel about them?"


And this is good, indeed the fictional Elan should feel bad about what he did. Sooner or later maybe he will realize it, maybe prompted by Serini.

"We are good guys, we have the best interest of anyone at heart"
"... said the one who blasted away uncaringly a whole colony of monsters because they had green skin and fangs and you don't"

But from there to implying the retcon would be a good thing, because the monsters would benefit from it, there is a huge step.

[arimareiji]

And this is good, indeed the fictional Elan should feel bad about what he did. Sooner or later maybe he will realize it, maybe prompted by Serini.

"We are good guys, we have the best interest of anyone at heart"
"... said the one who blasted away uncaringly a whole colony of monsters because they had green skin and fangs and you don't"

But from there to implying the retcon would be a good thing, because the monsters would benefit from it, there is a huge step.
Nice phrasing throughout. If you ever teach classes on effective subtlety, I'll sign up. (^_~)b

[KorvinStarmast]

What a strangely aggressive tone when you could've just explained it much more calmly. :smallconfused: Standard fare.

To boot, his apparent idiocy has actually been clever/subtle benevolent manipulation all along." (viz. Fizban in Dragonlance) Not seeing Elan as Fizban. (Given who Fizban represents, double no)
Hey! So, I largely agree with not giving Elan a pass. The author may disagree with you, given the Oracle's prophecized happy ending. :smallcool: In other words, I think Elan has gotten a pass. Why? It set up the Vin Diesel Movie comic strip. Rule of Cool was what was prioritized at that point.

Welp, good to know that I at least agree with the logic of me-from-eight-years-ago. :smalltongue: Talking to ourselves isn't a bad thing; agreeing with ourselves makes for a shorter conversation and induces less bewilderment amongst observers of said conversation. (Source: one of a number of things I learned after I passed the age of 50).

Indeed, but for the most part these forum discussions seem to be predicated on "If these were real events, how should the other characters feel about them?" The "should" become, I think, the problem's root. I find it more interesting to ask myself 'how would the other characters feel' since there are a number of different ways that this internal question can be answered.
"When judging their actions, we should keep in mind that these are fictional characters." The desire to judge - or to feel that one has to 'find the answer' - seems to me to more often get in the way of understanding a story than not.
I partly lay the blame for that on how, in school, one often got graded on exams in Literature classes ... or in essays that were assigned on a required reading book. (For example, The Sound the and the Tury ...

[arimareiji]

Not seeing Elan as Fizban. (Given who Fizban represents, double no)
Agreed, but I don't think this would be inconsistent with sending up the trope. I.e. sometimes there's no deeper meaning, and that which walks like a duck and quacks like a duck isn't a benevolent wise deity in duck's clothing. (^_~)


The author may disagree with you, given the Oracle's prophecized happy ending. :smallcool: In other words, I think Elan has gotten a pass. Why? It set up the Vin Diesel Movie comic strip. Rule of Cool was what was prioritized at that point.
I don't think there are any parallels here, but somehow I'm reminded of Saving Private Ryan. Upham doesn't seem wrong by 1998 standards when he argues for freeing the captured German soldier, and he gets a happy ending, but the viewer may judge him much more harshly by the end.


The "should" become, I think, the problem's root. I find it more interesting to ask myself 'how would the other characters feel' since there are a number of different ways that this internal question can be answered. The desire to judge - or to feel that one has to 'find the answer' - seems to me to more often get in the way of understanding a story than not.
I partly lay the blame for that on how, in school, one often got graded on exams in Literature classes ... or in essays that were assigned on a required reading book. (For example, The Sound the and the Tury ...
Well-said; "should" generally says more about the observer than the observed. Our emphasis on it may also partly stem from the fact that we hate not "knowing"*, and "would" (i.e. truth) can only be extrapolated.
* - Because knowing gives the illusion of control, which itself is far more of an illusion than we like to admit. And our need to believe we're in control is so strong that it gives rise to a veritable host of errors in logic (post hoc ergo prompter hoc, just world, etc).

(And this is why I keep trying to wordsmith, despite it being futile or worse >90% of the time... when someone tugs on the fine distinctions in meaning, they may unravel to show more than would have otherwise been apparent.)

[KorvinStarmast]

* - Because knowing gives the illusion of control, which itself is far more of an illusion than we like to admit. And our need to believe we're in control is so strong that it gives rise to a veritable host of errors in logic (post hoc ergo prompter hoc, just world, etc). Yeah, the internet is full of those kinds of errors. :smallyuk: