Level 4 gloomstalker question

[Raven Darkcloud]

I have just leveled to level 4 and I am trying to pick if I want to raise my gloomstalker's Dex to 18 or take Sharpshooter. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. He already has the xbow expert feat.

[YoghurtBox]

I would take dex now and delay sharpshooter to L8.

[da newt]

If you find it easy to get advantage, take SS now.

If you are attacking without advantage more often, take +2 DEX.

+2 DEX is the more conservative, safe, sure to help but only so much answer.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Raising Dex is obviously a safer, consistent pick. Initiative and a Bonus to Hit and Damage, probably AC unless you've opted for Medium Armor.

However, Sharpshooter can really high roll with a bit of luck thanks to your 3rd level feature. An extra opportunity to proc it on the first turn of combat can be the difference between removing an enemy from the fight, perhaps even several if your DM is the type to throw mooks in with some bigger bads. You would also be able to use it to consistently gain advantage in an encounter where you can be in darkness, creatures without darkvision would naturally be unable to see you and you are considered invisible to those who do actually have it.

I would go with Sharpshooter first personally, I think you'll have plenty of opportunity to make use of it with that extra attack before it becomes necessary to increase your Dex to compensate. Seeing as you have XBow Expert already, I assume you also have the Archery Fighting Style so the penalty isn't as bad as it could be.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I still think DEX is better because you have Hunters Mark to increase your damage.

Your basic to hit will be +8. If you take SS and use it, it will be +2. So expect to miss a lot.

[Eldariel]

You're going Crossbow so Sharpshooter is mandatory. This raises your effective range from 30' to 120' with Hand Crossbow and the extra attack. That's not even close, especially since you already have Archery Fighting Style so you have extra hit chance to dump into damage. And your base damage isn't all that. The only thing you'd want Dex for is Initiative, AC and Stealth, but given you're at range, AC isn't that important and given you have immunity to Darkvision, you can get by with ever-so-slightly lower Stealth too. Also, Sharpshooter removes cover so more often than not (when firing from behind allies), it gives you +2 to hit effectively too.

Sharpshooter is that one feat that's so good you should always take it ASAP if it's what you're doing. It doesn't hurt that on this level, without Advantage you're going to gain damage up to AC 21 by using Sharpshooter (or AC 20 with Hunter's Mercy active). Your DPR is going to be higher with Sharpshooter than with +2 Dex up until AC 19 even with Hunter's Mercy and no Advantage. If you get advantage, you're always doing more damage with Sharpshooter than without.


In short: Sharpshooter gives you more damage against all enemies you are likely to face (the highest AC in this range is from Young Dragons which are AC 18 generally, and some humanoids that have similar high AC). Sharpshooter gives you more range. Sharpshooter lets you fire from anywhere without worrying about Cover. This isn't close, Sharpshooter is just way better: even without Advantage, which you can have a decent amount of time as Gloomstalker using your one-way Darkvision.

+2 Dex is for AC, Initiative, and Stealth, which are nice but the minor improvement isn't as good as the major improvement to your deadifying capabilities from Sharpshooter in this case. Take Sharpshooter 10/10 times.

People don't really seem to understand how much +10 damage is on this level (or +9 compared to the Dex boost). It's doubling your average damage (1d6 Hand Crossbow + 1d6 Hunter's Mark + 3 Dex = 10 so you get +10 = double; without Hunter's Mercy it's not even close). You would have to hit half as often for the average damage to come out even (so you'd have to go hitting on a 11 to hitting on a 16, and since critting is more valuable than not critting that's lowballing it, and that's without Advantage).

[Witty Username]

I still think DEX is better because you have Hunters Mark to increase your damage.

Your basic to hit will be +8. If you take SS and use it, it will be +2. So expect to miss a lot.

Hunter's mark competes with the bonus action attacks from hand crossbow, so it is not as good as you might think. I you have a heavy crossbow on hand that's a different story.

[Frogreaver]

I'd take sharpshooter just because it significantly increases my range. Being able to hand crossbow something from 120ft away is a huge quality of life improvement. Against AC's 16-18 there's not more than about a 5-6% damage difference in Dex or SS. Against 15 AC and Lower SS will be stronger. Against 19 AC and higher Dex will be better damage. So all things being equal I'd take SS because it has the range and cover penalty removal benefits.

[diplomancer]

How often do you fire at long range? How often do you fire at cover? Interestingly enough, at lower levels, these two benefits are far more relevant than the -5,+10, so I'd take Sharpshooter if the answer to either of these questions is "quite often, actually", and +2 dex if it isn't. Use the -5,+10 judicially.

[Eldariel]

How often do you fire at long range? How often do you fire at cover? Interestingly enough, at lower levels, these two benefits are far more relevant than the -5,+10, so I'd take Sharpshooter if the answer to either of these questions is "quite often, actually", and +2 dex if it isn't. Use the -5,+10 judicially.

Like mathed out earlier, on this level -5/+10 is basically always worth it unless you oneshot enemies anyways. Use it with abandon.

[diplomancer]

Like mathed out earlier, on this level -5/+10 is basically always worth it unless you oneshot enemies anyways. Use it with abandon.

Eh, I prefer reliably hitting enemies, specially when I have few attacks, but then I'm notoriously risk-averse. YMMV, of course.

[Eldariel]

Eh, I prefer reliably hitting enemies, specially when I have few attacks, but then I'm notoriously risk-averse. YMMV, of course.

Well, mathematically the optimal choice is PA basically always, especially if you have the second attack from CBE to reduce variance. But if course, the mathematically correct choice may not feel right and thus I can see why you would play the way you do since it might FEEL better if it is not necessarily so. Which is fine of course.

[diplomancer]

Well, mathematically the optimal choice is PA basically always, especially if you have the second attack from CBE to reduce variance. But if course, the mathematically correct choice may not feel right and thus I can see why you would play the way you do since it might FEEL better if it is not necessarily so. Which is fine of course.

That's pretty much it (though I will note that your math ignores excess- and therefore useless- damage). Players are not mathematically-optimizing robots; -5,+10 is a gamble; it may be a mathematically recommended gamble, but it's a gamble nonetheless; and different people have different feelings about gambles. Myself, when I have it, I use it mostly in two situations:
1- the enemy needs to die NOW; after all, there are other players in the group, and if I don't kill it, they might (another thing to take into account if you do want to do the math, I think, specially in the probable last round of combat)
2- I have advantage.

Notoriously- and perhaps mathematically-unsound, risk-averse, I know. But that's how it is :)

[Frogreaver]

That's pretty much it (though I will note that your math ignores excess- and therefore useless- damage). Players are not mathematically-optimizing robots; -5,+10 is a gamble; it may be a mathematically recommended gamble, but it's a gamble nonetheless; and different people have different feelings about gambles. Myself, when I have it, I use it mostly in two situations:
1- the enemy needs to die NOW; after all, there are other players in the group, and if I don't kill it, they might (another thing to take into account if you do want to do the math, I think, specially in the probable last round of combat)
2- I have advantage.

Notoriously- and perhaps mathematically-unsound, risk-averse, I know. But that's how it is :)

Agreed, which is why that I would focus on SS for the following reasons

Hand Crossbow Range increase from 30ft to 120ft
Ignoring all cover benefits
Should almost always be used with advantage (which you can get against prone enemies if you move next to them due to Crossbow Expertise)
Against lower AC enemies your damage can really skyrocket
In the absolute worst case scenario it isn't like damage is that far behind the +2 dex version


IMO, getting into the minutiae of what SS does for damage and risk aversion really is missing the forest for the trees IMO.

I also really want to 2nd the notion that overkill damage will lower the SS effective DPR pretty significantly

[stoutstien]

You already have a damage feat and Gloom stalker has some decent damage boosts early on so why not diversify? What is your wisdom setting at? Lots of tasty options for enhancing your scouting and utility.

[diplomancer]

Agreed, which is why that I would focus on SS for the following reasons

Hand Crossbow Range increase from 30ft to 120ft
Ignoring all cover benefits
Should almost always be used with advantage (which you can get against prone enemies if you move next to them due to Crossbow Expertise)
Against lower AC enemies your damage can really skyrocket
In the absolute worst case scenario it isn't like damage is that far behind the +2 dex version


IMO, getting into the minutiae of what SS does for damage and risk aversion really is missing the forest for the trees IMO.

I also really want to 2nd the notion that overkill damage will lower the SS effective DPR pretty significantly

I agree, which is why my first post exclusively focused on the accuracy boosting parts of the feat; the damage-boost is something to be used, or not, depending on too many circumstances to list; the accuracy boosting, when they apply, are far better than +2 Dex, so the question is how often they do apply.

[Frogreaver]

You already have a damage feat and Gloom stalker has some decent damage boosts early on so why not diversify? What is your wisdom setting at? Lots of tasty options for enhancing your scouting and utility.

You must be joking right?

[Damon_Tor]

+dex also improves your AC, initiative, reflex saves and stealth.

[stoutstien]

You must be joking right?

Not really. For most groups I would say hyper focus on damage is at best a wash and at worse a net loss. Even in the most game as war groups, damage is rarely the factor that leads to failure or prevents overcoming challenges.

[Rfkannen]

Sharpshooter is really good for ignoring cover as well as the damage, I would e recommend it IF you have any regular source of advantage or bonuses to hit (ie, a caster who likes to cast spells like bless or fairie fire)

[Frogreaver]

Not really. For most groups I would say hyper focus on damage is at best a wash and at worse a net loss. Even in the most game as war groups, damage is rarely the factor that leads to failure or prevents overcoming challenges.

List the benefits of dex then the benefits of wisdom. It's pretty clear cut even for exploration which is better.

Wisdom gives +1 survival, perception, insight and another spell prepared. Save DC's don't affect range spells much.

Dexterity gives +1 Damage, +1 AC, +1 Initiative, +1 Stealth, +1 Acrobatics

I'm not seeing any world on which +2 Wisdom is better than +2 Dexterity for a Ranger.

[stoutstien]

List the benefits of dex then the benefits of wisdom. It's pretty clear cut even for exploration which is better.

Wisdom gives +1 survival, perception, insight and another spell prepared. Save DC's don't affect range spells much.

Dexterity gives +1 Damage, +1 AC, +1 Initiative, +1 Stealth, +1 Acrobatics

I'm not seeing any world on which +2 Wisdom is better than +2 Dexterity for a Ranger.

I was talking about wis half feats like shadow/fey touched, observant, and so on. My initial post could have been clearer in that regard.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Although I rather increase DEX than get SS, I wouldn’t disregard WIS that much for Rangers. Gloom Stalkers also increase Initiative from WIS and you can find some niche uses for Summon Beast.

WIS-based Beastmaster using Shillelagh and Summon Beast can be really powerful.

[Frogreaver]

Although I rather increase DEX than get SS, I wouldn’t disregard WIS that much for Rangers. Gloom Stalkers also increase Initiative from WIS and you can find some niche uses for Summon Beast.

WIS-based Beastmaster using Shillelagh and Summon Beast can be really powerful.

I love how the only real contender for use Wisdom is to force your attack stat to key off wisdom...

[stoutstien]

I love how the only real contender for use Wisdom is to force your attack stat to key off wisdom...

The plight of the ranger. Unlike the other halfcasters it's hard to justify not focusing on dex/str to a certain extent before even looking at casting half of the class. The base ranger kit bypassing skills rather than enhancing them doesn't help much either.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I love how the only real contender for use Wisdom is to force your attack stat to key off wisdom...

Well, you can do fine with DEX 16 and Archery FS, and somehow prioritize WIS 18 in order to improve Beast Master and/or Summon Beast, even abusing from both Air Beast versions with Flyby. The thing is that Shillelagh from Druidic Warrior and Pack Tactics from the Land Beast are a great synergy, and you can go SAD with WIS and CON, capping DEX at 14 and not losing anything besides Stealth.

[Raven Darkcloud]

Thanks for all of your input my wis is sitting at 14 atm.

I will be multi classing into scout later.

[Segev]

Not to push you to Wisdom (because heaven knows I love me some feats, myself), but don't forget that gloomstalkers add Wisdom as well as Dexterity modifiers to Initiative, so +2 Wisdom is giving you a similar bonus on that one front to +2 Dexterity.

But yes, the big question on whether to take Sharpshooter is all about how often you're shooting at a range that gives you Disadvantage. If you're doing so frequently, or if you find yourself rushing to close to get out of Disadvantage range, Sharpshooter will feel awesome.

[stoutstien]

Not to push you to Wisdom (because heaven knows I love me some feats, myself), but don't forget that gloomstalkers add Wisdom as well as Dexterity modifiers to Initiative, so +2 Wisdom is giving you a similar bonus on that one front to +2 Dexterity.

But yes, the big question on whether to take Sharpshooter is all about how often you're shooting at a range that gives you Disadvantage. If you're doing so frequently, or if you find yourself rushing to close to get out of Disadvantage range, Sharpshooter will feel awesome.

I tend to recommend SS for GS around 11 due to that's about the time NPC HP starts bloating and getting a retry on a missed attack is a huge jump in how effective SS is. Tasha's is reinforcing this for me with nature veil generating advantage past the first round even when you can't rely on darkness. Of course this might all be completely different if they are using a Hand cross bow over a Heavy version or swapping back and forth depending on external factors.

I need to have a serious relook at the ranger overall with Tasha but mostly I keep reading swarm keeper because it actually looks like a ranger I would play.

[Segev]

I tend to recommend SS for GS around 11 due to that's about the time NPC HP starts bloating and getting a retry on a missed attack is a huge jump in how effective SS is. Tasha's is reinforcing this for me with nature veil generating advantage past the first round even when you can't rely on darkness. Of course this might all be completely different if they are using a Hand cross bow over a Heavy version or swapping back and forth depending on external factors.

I need to have a serious relook at the ranger overall with Tasha but mostly I keep reading swarm keeper because it actually looks like a ranger I would play.

You're not wrong as far as you go, but I feel the need to emphasize that it's not the -5/+10 I'd recommend Sharpshooter for, but rather the ability to use the long range on your weapons without Disadvantage. This can be between another +3 to +5 to hit, and if you use it often enough, can be a very big advantage. Engagement range giving you an extra couple of rounds to shoot things before they can even fire back effectively should not be underestimated...but it also is game-dependent.

[stoutstien]

You're not wrong as far as you go, but I feel the need to emphasize that it's not the -5/+10 I'd recommend Sharpshooter for, but rather the ability to use the long range on your weapons without Disadvantage. This can be between another +3 to +5 to hit, and if you use it often enough, can be a very big advantage. Engagement range giving you an extra couple of rounds to shoot things before they can even fire back effectively should not be underestimated...but it also is game-dependent.

I go back and forth in my mind over the impact of the shooting at maximum range with no disadvantage part of sharpshooter. Thematically it's my favorite part of the feat but without pressure being applied by someone else in the party they can either dodge and/or prone or move in the opposite direction. There is a nice middle ground, staying right outside the movement range of the enemies so you your self can prone as a defensive tactic safely.

[Segev]

I go back and forth in my mind over the impact of the shooting at maximum range with no disadvantage part of sharpshooter. Thematically it's my favorite part of the feat but without pressure being applied by someone else in the party they can either dodge and/or prone or move in the opposite direction. There is a nice middle ground, staying right outside the movement range of the enemies so you your self can prone as a defensive tactic safely.

Like I said, it's campaign- and game-dependent. How far away does the DM let encounters begin? Are you in an environment where long-distance is important? In a sea-going campaign, where ships might sight each other miles out and ranged combat becomes viable as soon as they're IN range, while "dodging" or "going prone" inhibits one's ability to pilot a ship...well, you can see the advantages.

Also, if they're dodging or going prone, they're not moving very much, and that's more rounds for you to shoot at them. Heck, you can kite them.

It's also great for ambushes. That assassin/gloomstalker with sharpshooter is going to be able to get a surprise attack off from much further away.

[Raven Darkcloud]

I usually go with a heavy xbow at the beginning of combat phases. So bonus action Hunters Mark usually two attacks with a heavy xbow. I play an overwatch type char.

[Segev]

I usually go with a heavy xbow at the beginning of combat phases. So bonus action Hunters Mark usually two attacks with a heavy xbow. I play an overwatch type char.

Assuming you don't kill the target in the first round, switching to two hand crossbows until you need to move hunter's mark will yield more damage due to the extra 2d6 from the third attack.

[diplomancer]

Assuming you don't kill the target in the first round, switching to two hand crossbows until you need to move hunter's mark will yield more damage due to the extra 2d6 from the third attack.

Only one hand crossbow needed; if you have Hunter's mark, I suppose first two rounds would go
Round 1: Hunter's Mark+ Heavy Crossbow, stash crossbow at the end of turn.
Round 2: Pick up hand crossbow and fire away. Technically, after that, if you need to switch your mark you wouldn't be able to switch again, though many DMs let you drop items "for free", i.e, without costing an object interaction.

[Eldariel]

If you take Crossbow Expert, you always want to use a Hand Crossbow since 1d6+3-1d6+4 is always more than whatever base damage you can get on Heavy Crossbow or whatever. Therefore, being able to open up at 120' instead of 30' simply increases your damage significantly unless you only ever fight at pointblank quarters. Let alone when shooting approaching or escaping Dragons or whatever. Also, especially if you fight a lot in dungeons, forests or such, there'll be cover everywhere so that's another +2-+5 per turn (and moreso if you wanna pick the high priority targets that are often behind meatwalls in e.g. humanoid formations).

Those two are the parts of Sharpshooter I nerf in my homegames since they aren't especially engaging and remove much of the interesting decisions out of fighting with a bow. They basically mean that as long as you have LoE and LoS, you can shoot at anyone within 120' for 3 attacks/600' for 2 attacks the same - it literally doesn't matter where they are (though if they go prone or dodge, that's a different matter of course - but both halve their approach or escape speed so it actually comes out at net zero much of the time since they take twice as many attacks; my Dragons generally just Dash away). Which takes away the whole interactive part of archery: finding angles for firing and walking the tightrope of not putting yourself in melee while also not having to shoot through cover and outside range.

[Ir0ns0ul]

At least in my experience, I saw good synergy between HM and bonus action attacks (PAM, CBE and TWF).

My simple logic was:

- If fighting several week enemies with no strong/BBEG around, just forget HM and triple (or four through Dread Ambusher first round) attack at-will even leveraging Favored Foe.

- If fighting strong enemy or BBEG, who will probably take more than 3+ rounds to go down, my initial move was always to cast HM and attack twice (or three times with Dread Ambusher in the first round), and then follow-up with regular three attacks having +1d6 each. I never crunched the numbers, but I had the feeling that my DPR was better because I was able to consistently dish out 2d6 + 4 x3 round after round.

Therefore that’s why I rather get CBE instead of SS with Rangers. You already get consistent ways to increase your damage output that are maximized with BA extra attacks.